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  1. #201
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    Here out east I find mtb drive trains way too tall. I've got no problem pushing tall gears as for many years I rode a 2:1 SS. But on a gear FS, especially a 29er, I find anything beyond a 36x11 way over kill. Even when I ride out west I've done fine with a 32 front ring.

    Anybody who disagrees needs to post a pic of their worn out 11t rear cog.

    Shimano's 2x10 does work really well. The only thing I'd change is making the big cookie up front a 36t, not a 38t.

    With that said, if I could get the XX1 to fit my King hubs, I'd be on it.

  2. #202
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    Being an East coaster myself, I'd be fine with a 10-spd 12-40, though I can easily make do with the current 11-36.

  3. #203
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    I find 10 speed 11-36 is too fine grained for my lightweight hardtail (2 gears per shift all the time), but just right for the heavier fully.

    I'd like a 9 speed 11-34 with an additional 38 bunged on.

  4. #204
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    FWIW, I find some of the gaps (especially 18-21 and 24-28) on the 11-36 annoying, and prefer the 11-32 or 11-34. What'd be good for me is an 11-34 with a 39 or 40T cog instead of the 11T; 11 is overkill with 29" wheels. (Sorry Nigel.)

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    FWIW, I find some of the gaps (especially 18-21 and 24-28) on the 11-36 annoying, and prefer the 11-32 or 11-34. What'd be good for me is an 11-34 with a 39 or 40T cog instead of the 11T; 11 is overkill with 29" wheels. (Sorry Nigel.)
    I'm not sure you understand how gearing works, If you think 11t is over kill for a 29er.

    It all depends on what front chain ring size you run.
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  6. #206
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    I understand how gearing works fine; I just don't have any use for an 11T cog with any of the double chainwheel sets out there, as anything over ~75-80" sees only occasional use and anything over 90" is useless for me. Since I do need to ride on the road to get to off-road stuff, 1x wouldn't give enough range at the high end if I could get a small enough ring to get a liveable low gear.

    IMHO, chainwheel sets - especially from Shimano - have larger chainwheels than are useful for >26" wheels; SRAM at least offer 36x22. Yeah, I know most people don't like to or know how to spin, but that isn't a good reason to penalise those of us who do.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    I understand how gearing works fine; I just don't have any use for an 11T cog with any of the double chainwheel sets out there, as anything over ~75-80" sees only occasional use and anything over 90" is useless for me. Since I do need to ride on the road to get to off-road stuff, 1x wouldn't give enough range at the high end if I could get a small enough ring to get a liveable low gear.

    IMHO, chainwheel sets - especially from Shimano - have larger chainwheels than are useful for >26" wheels; SRAM at least offer 36x22. Yeah, I know most people don't like to or know how to spin, but that isn't a good reason to penalise those of us who do.
    Ok so it is the fact that this is a thread about 1x11 you don't get
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  8. #208
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    You really are trying to be difficult aren't you? I get that (and 1x11) fine too, but Shimano have no product yet, so in the meantime (if anything ever appears that is) it'd be nice to be able to use what there is, possibly by adding a larger cog(s), which is what some people are doing. I could live with XX1 okay apart from the cost, but this is a thread in what is allegedly the *Shimano* section of the site, so XX1 isn't really kosher.

  9. #209
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    My hope they'll introduce somthing like this

    - 11 speed cassettes in the range of, say, 10-34, 10-38 and 10-42.
    - A dedicated single ring crank set
    - Close ratio double crank sets like 22-34, 24-36 and 26-38. These are suitable for all wheel sizes and will make for compact, well shifting FD's
    - No triple crank sets anymore. Imho the 2x11 will make triples obsolete.
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutantclover View Post
    I brought up exactly the same thing earlier in this thread and few people seemed to get it. I still like the idea, not of doubling it but of reducing it by 20% or so. I don't believe in 9 or 10 tooth cogs, but I would like to see an 11-tooth with a 20% smaller diameter, to add range that way. Keep the diameter of everything else about the same (just with about 20% more teeth). Better range, better ratios because your gear changes would be more uniform from one to the next. Poorer chain retention, but haven't we improved that significantly? I haven't dropped a chain from anything other than front shifting ever since getting Shadow+.
    Mechanical advantage (gear ratios) are a factor of diameter, not the number of teeth on a cog. Reducing pitch by 20% would do nothing to gear ratios (mechanical advantage), and would likely negatively affect shifting performance.

    Look up angular velocity if you'd like more information on this concept.

  11. #211
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    ^ What might make some sense would be to reduce the pitch a bit and increase the number of teeth on the cogs to compensate. The net result would be less load per tooth and more durability, but at the expense of non-compatibility. The chain would handle deflection better as there'd be more links, and so better lateral flexibility.

    Regardless, this will probably never happen, as Shimano already tried with 10mm pitch track stuff in the 1970s with "Dura-Ace 10". While it worked well, market resistance due to non-compatibility killed it after a few years, and Shimano never released their planned road group.

    Also, de lars cuevas: I agree with you, but won't hold my breath while I wait. :-(

  12. #212
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    I have an XT 10-speed drivetrain (11-36 cassette) but with an X0 crankset set up 22/33/bash. The only time I'll use the 33x11 top gear is on pavement, and I almost never ride on pavement. I have XX1 on another bike with a 30t chainring, and I also only use the 10t cog on pavement. I ride east coast technical terrain.

    So, for me, I think a 10-speed 11-42t cassette with a 30t chainring would work well. If Shimano makes a wide range cassette like this I will convert my 2x10 XT drivetrain to 1x10. The nice thing about this option is that it would just require a new cassette and chainring, not a whole new drivetrain.

  13. #213
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    Just added the Mirfe 42t onto the shimano 28-32-36 (from their 11-36) to my canfield 9t microhub, with a 28t chainring up front, for the gear spread:
    9-11-13-16-19-24-28-32-36-42

    Perfect!

    Big jump between 19 and 24, but don't seem to notice it on the trail - as I spend most of my time in 24-42 climbing and 9-16 descending. I was surprised how many times i find myself in 28/9 descending rock gardens - otherwise only use it on paved downhill runs - 28/11 for flat paved.

    28/42 is equivalent to the old school granny 22/34
    and
    28/9 is equivalent to 44/14 on old school triple crank

    both ends very usable!

    shifting smooth as butter!
    Last edited by twyeld; 01-06-2014 at 04:40 PM.

  14. #214
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    I think Shimano's answer the 1x11 will be electronic gruppos. Ever ridden DI2? It works amazingly well. Wouldn't be surprised in Shimano made a 2x10 electronic gruppo with (at least an option for) single-shifter operation. That is, you just click through the gears and the system decides when to go from big to small ring for you. Seems nuts but DI2 is really that smooth on front shifts; the system can "see" where your cranks are and time the FD push to the ramps and pins. I actually think that'd be pretty sweet (though probably very $$)

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    I think Shimano's answer the 1x11 will be electronic gruppos. Ever ridden DI2? It works amazingly well. Wouldn't be surprised in Shimano made a 2x10 electronic gruppo with (at least an option for) single-shifter operation. That is, you just click through the gears and the system decides when to go from big to small ring for you. Seems nuts but DI2 is really that smooth on front shifts; the system can "see" where your cranks are and time the FD push to the ramps and pins. I actually think that'd be pretty sweet (though probably very $$)
    I would hate that. I saw something like that on a video. I like being able to just drop the front chainring if I need to. Having to shift through all the gears to get to a low bail out gear, seems limiting to me. Add the fact that I'd pay almost as much as a bike to be limited- no thanks.
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  16. #216
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    Yeah, I don't think it'd be very popular, and I for one wouldn't pay what they'd likely ask for it. But spy shots of electronic XTR are already out there. I think Shimano assumed that was the future and has been a bit blind-sided by the 1x11 stuff.

    I'm sure most Shimano users join me in wishing Shimano would do a dedicated 1x11. SRAM's new groups look great, but after years on both Shimano and SRAM (and Campy on the road) I'm very wary of the reliability and durability of SRAM.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    Yeah, I don't think it'd be very popular, and I for one wouldn't pay what they'd likely ask for it. But spy shots of electronic XTR are already out there. I think Shimano assumed that was the future and has been a bit blind-sided by the 1x11 stuff.

    I'm sure most Shimano users join me in wishing Shimano would do a dedicated 1x11. SRAM's new groups look great, but after years on both Shimano and SRAM (and Campy on the road) I'm very wary of the reliability and durability of SRAM.
    I'm not too worried about if they do. I have a General Lee cassette on the way, works with everything I have, decent price.
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  18. #218
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    The Gen. Lee or various 42T extra ring options do look promising. Unfortunately I just don't think I can get the gear range I need with less than a 10-42 spread. Living in big mountains is great, but it does require the right gears. I've messed around with gear calculators and come to the conclusion than short of XX1, I'll be staying with a double.

    Side note: on top of not liking SRAM, I have a problem with spending $400 on a cassette. Here in the PNW I ride in the mud a LOT, and drivetrains wear out pretty fast.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    ... I have a problem with spending $400 on a cassette. Here in the PNW I ride in the mud a LOT, and drivetrains wear out pretty fast.
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.

  20. #220
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    That gearing may work for some, But really lacks range.

    The XX1/X01 has a 420% range.

    Were as the 13-40 ha 307% range.

    Std 11-36 has a 327% range.

    Although it is clear some people don't need as much of a gear spread, for most with those gear options they would either miss out on top end or bottom end.

    The Shimano group would need to be built for the masses & there are still plenty of people that think that the XX1's 420% range isn't wide enough.



    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.
    Those aren't "wide range". They have the same range as existing 10-speed cassettes. Just go with a smaller front ring and you'll have the same ratios with an 11-34 cassette.

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    Point taken, muzzanic. My intent would be to run a 1x10 with a 32T chainring for local riding, but putting everything back to 2x10 ( 24-38 or 26-38 ) when I go up north to the high country, which, sadly, doesn't happen as often as I'd like it to these days.

    That said, I don't believe I've ever worn out a 11T or 12T cog on any bike, with any gear combination, I've ever owned.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    Point taken, muzzanic. My intent would be to run a 1x10 with a 32T chainring for local riding, but putting everything back to 2x10 ( 24-38 or 26-38 ) when I go up north to the high country, which, sadly, doesn't happen as often as I'd like it to these days.

    That said, I don't believe I've ever worn out a 11T or 12T cog on any bike, with any gear combination, I've ever owned.
    Yes but if you went with a smaller front ring you would use them more.

    I have run XX1 since it came out & I really like it, sure it costs but I have just put X01 on another bike of mine with an old X9 crank & wolf tooth front ring.

    The cassette cost me $255 US shifter $94.4 US & rear deraileur $174 US

    Sure there were on a very good sale but still not cheap I guess.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-green-rip9-002.jpg  

    Last edited by muzzanic; 01-08-2014 at 11:41 AM.
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  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    Point taken, muzzanic. My intent would be to run a 1x10 with a 32T chainring for local riding,
    There's your problem. Pick up a set of SRAM cranks and a Wolf Tooth 26 ring. The attached graph compares your 13-40 with a 32t vs. a Shimano XT 11-32 with 26t ring. Pretty much a spot on match.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.
    I like that 12-40 range. I very seldom use the 32x11 on my 1x10 (32 x 11-36) and when I do, I feel that it's a bit too high for me. Or maybe I'm just a really slow rider
    Better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by r1Gel View Post
    I like that 12-40 range. I very seldom use the 32x11 on my 1x10 (32 x 11-36) and when I do, I feel that it's a bit too high for me. Or maybe I'm just a really slow rider
    Just go to a 30 tooth chain ring & you can all but have that gearing now.
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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    Just go to a 30 tooth chain ring & you can all but have that gearing now.
    Good point. I've thought about that as well; just waiting for a good deal on a 30-t RF NW (I just got a 32-t).
    cheers
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  28. #228
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    I agree that Di2 is awesome but they will not release a system that automatically shifts the front rings to run through the gears in even steps. There are way too many times that you need to dump from the big ring to the small ring on a 2X system when approaching a steep hill.

    Also, The Di2 system cannot see where you're cranks are positioned. There is no crank position sensor so that's impossible.
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  29. #229
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    Why would you want the bike to shift for you? That would cause many wrecks.

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  30. #230
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Nobody is talking about an automatic transmission here. You still push the shift button yourself but the brains of the Di2 create a sort of sequential shifting.
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  31. #231
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    The guys at Fairwheel Bikes did a custom Di2 setup like this by reprogramming the system. It isn't my cup of tea but it was cool.
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  32. #232
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    Are there any news about xtr 2015?

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    Quote Originally Posted by < T.R.E.K > View Post
    Are there any news about xtr 2015?
    I imagine they'll show / announce / tease something at Sea Otter.

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    This article mentions an electronic XTR group to be launched later this year:

    Shimano sales rise 10 percent in 2013 | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

  35. #235
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    I really don't understand an advantage to an electronic group for mtb

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  36. #236
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    I really don't understand an advantage to an electronic group for mtb

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    Better shifting in muddy conditions. Accurate and fast shifting all the time.

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Better shifting in muddy conditions. Accurate and fast shifting all the time.
    Meh. I've run everything from X.7 to XT. I press the shifter, it goes click, it shifts. I don't really see how making it electronic will make it work better in the mud. Once the derailleur is in position, it's up to the chain and cassette.

    I'm more interested in getting rid of my front derailleur, keeping the chain on the front ring, and having parts that I'm OK with getting smashed on a rock.

  38. #238
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    The advantage to electronic shifting is bike part mfgs make a lot more $ and the parts break a lot easier. Duh!
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Meh. I've run everything from X.7 to XT. I press the shifter, it goes click, it shifts. I don't really see how making it electronic will make it work better in the mud. Once the derailleur is in position, it's up to the chain and cassette.

    I'm more interested in getting rid of my front derailleur, keeping the chain on the front ring, and having parts that I'm OK with getting smashed on a rock.
    The derailleur still has to get into position. Cog the cable up with mud, and it won't shift as well...

  40. #240
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    Electronic shifting for people with thumb injuries. I've know a couple of people who've had to go gripshift purely because of thumb pain - usually the result of a crash. I currently left shift with my palm after getting my left thumb caught up in the brakes in a crash last year.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Better shifting in muddy conditions. Accurate and fast shifting all the time.
    BS. I can shift better than a computer, if it needs a little extra oomph to go into gear in crap conditions, I can give it that.

    Muddy conditions only effect lever feel unless you neglect your setup. Mud only becomes an issue when your chain and derailluers are saturated.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post

    Muddy conditions only effect lever feel unless you neglect your setup. Mud only becomes an issue when your chain and derailluers are saturated.
    I know mud is very location specific, but the above has been my experience as well. Our mud is either organic/loom or sand. I've never had my cables fowled. I've had the derailleur itself become so fowled that the spring pressure couldn't overcome the added friction, but by that point the chain/cassette is such a mess that it's skipping gears anyway.

    Either way, I've had far greater issues with shifting at the front than the rear. Between tire clearance, suspension clearance, chain retention and anti-squat vs ring size, I only want 1x. XX1 is everything I want other than the cost and my dislike of GXP cranks.

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanB View Post
    This article mentions an electronic XTR group to be launched later this year:

    Shimano sales rise 10 percent in 2013 | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
    It's been removed from the article. I saw it earlier when you posted it but its gone now. Or my vision is gone...

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    I know mud is very location specific, but the above has been my experience as well. Our mud is either organic/loom or sand. I've never had my cables fowled. I've had the derailleur itself become so fowled that the spring pressure couldn't overcome the added friction, but by that point the chain/cassette is such a mess that it's skipping gears anyway.

    Either way, I've had far greater issues with shifting at the front than the rear. Between tire clearance, suspension clearance, chain retention and anti-squat vs ring size, I only want 1x. XX1 is everything I want other than the cost and my dislike of GXP cranks.
    The mud I get where I live is like clay. It will literally stop your bike from being able to roll. I've seen it tear apart drivetrains.

    XX1 doesn't need GXP cranks. Get you some Raceface cranks, problem solved.

  45. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    BS. I can shift better than a computer, if it needs a little extra oomph to go into gear in crap conditions, I can give it that.

    Muddy conditions only effect lever feel unless you neglect your setup. Mud only becomes an issue when your chain and derailluers are saturated.
    Wonder why the top CX riders run electronic shifting then?
    They're the mud experts.

    Last season, Ben Berden ran 1x11 Di2.
    Should translate over to MTB's quite nicely.

    It's not a computer doing the shifting, you press the downshift button/lever and it downshifts, press the upshift lever and it upshifts. Instantly. No cable adjustment, no cable stretch, no cable gumming up. Auto trimming if you use a front der...
    Instantaneous solenoid activated shifting.

    I want it.

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Wonder why the top CX riders run electronic shifting then?
    Because they're not paying for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Last season, Ben Berden ran 1x11 Di2.
    Should translate over to MTB's quite nicely.
    Don't care if it's 10 speed or 11. The issue is the gear spread on the cassette. I don't need an 11 speed 12-27 cassette. I want something similar to XX1. And I'm not giving up even 1/2 a millimeter on my DS flange, so Shimano 11 speed is out for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    It's not a computer doing the shifting, you press the downshift button/lever and it downshifts, press the upshift lever and it upshifts. Instantly.
    It's not instant, it's as fast as the motor can move it. I can click off a shift in 0.3 seconds. I'm not seeing a lot of room for improvement.
    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    No cable adjustment, no cable stretch, no cable gumming up. Auto trimming if you use a front der...
    Instantaneous solenoid activated shifting.
    About the only time I've needed to adjust my derailleur has also involved straightening the hanger... or replacing the derailleur. If they can sell an SLX/Zee with electronic shifting for $100, then sure. I'll happily buy one. Otherwise? No thanks.

  47. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Don't care if it's 10 speed or 11. The issue is the gear spread on the cassette. I don't need an 11 speed 12-27 cassette. I want something similar to XX1. And I'm not giving up even 1/2 a millimeter on my DS flange, so Shimano 11 speed is out for me.
    Everyone is different. Some might not prefer the bigger gear ratio jumps that a wide range cassette would necessitate. In my experience this is a much bigger deal on the road than in the dirt.

    I'm not pro or anti electronic XTR, I'm a fan of having a choice and evolution. Ideally shimano would offer an improved mechanical XTR groupset (similar to dura ace 9000 or ultegra 6800) AND an electronic offering. IMO the more options the better.

  48. #248
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    Shimano guys said maybe something is coming at Sea Otter.

  49. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    Everyone is different. Some might not prefer the bigger gear ratio jumps that a wide range cassette would necessitate. In my experience this is a much bigger deal on the road than in the dirt.

    I'm not pro or anti electronic XTR, I'm a fan of having a choice and evolution. Ideally shimano would offer an improved mechanical XTR groupset (similar to dura ace 9000 or ultegra 6800) AND an electronic offering. IMO the more options the better.
    Very good points and I do agree. I'm just frustrated since I feel a good number of people have been asking for something like XX1 since 9 speed was released. Shimano's answer has always been "No, you don't know what you're talking about, you won't like it". I'm glad SRAM did it and hopefully it will cause Shimano to rethink their stance.

  50. #250
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    I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't a "new and improved" mechanical XTR alongside any electronic offerings. They continued to improve mechanical Dura Ace after Di2 was released and, if anything, the buy in for electronic shifting will be less on the mtb side than it is on the road.

    I would also be surprised if they don't rethink the XTR crank offerings. I could see them ditching the triple and the "race" double in favour of one new crank with double and single ring options. On the road side, the new DA and Ultegra now have a single spider for compact, standard rings.

    To me, the big question is what do they do out back? 11 speed? 10-42? Personally, I'm hoping for some kind of 10-speed wide range setup but I'm doubtful. My guess is a whole new freehub and an 11 speed cassette.

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