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  1. #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shredman69 View Post
    I have a triple, with an 11-40 General Lee and an XX rear Derailleur and it shifts great. No problems. Chain growth is not an issue either unless I was to run small small which I would never do anyway.
    I wasn't talking about a 40 tooth.
    I have a 6 Berth Motorhome that I rent out . It is based in Tauranga, New Zealand

  2. #402
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    I know, but it's close enough.
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  3. #403
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    Does anyone know if the new xtr is getting officially announced this week??

  4. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by YodaForce View Post
    Does anyone know if the new xtr is getting officially announced this week??
    Officially announced tomorrow, there's new info and pics in the drivetrain section of this website though..

  5. #405
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    Here it is, in its mechanical form at least.

    First look: Shimano XTR M9000 ? All New 1x, 2x and 3x 11-Speed Groups

  6. #406
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    Looks ok, but I still want the Leonardi 10sp 942.
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  7. #407
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    Current crank still looks WAY better than the next gen, aesthetically speaking.

  8. #408
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    So no change to freehub, and no change to dish, and with front derailleur clearance with new derailleur

    Pretty much all the stuff that people complained about earlier in the thread has gone .

    Could be a great thing for frame designers , especially as lower groups will surely follow the FD design ( it doesn't seem intrinsically expensive)

  9. #409
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    I have no problem saying that using the same hub is definitely nice but if getting a new wheel set anyways, its easy enough to get a hub where you can swap out the required hub body/driver. But the other turnoff for me is not wanting to pay xtr type money for a 1x drive train. I'll be curious as to how long it takes them to go 11 speed down the line. They just now are going 11 speed on the 105 line on the road side of things

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  10. #410
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    I have no problem saying that using the same hub is definitely nice but if getting a new wheel set anyways, its easy enough to get a hub where you can swap out the required hub body/driver. But the other turnoff for me is not wanting to pay xtr type money for a 1x drive train. I'll be curious as to how long it takes them to go 11 speed down the line. They just now are going 11 speed on the 105 line on the road side of things. Spacing between gears is important to me which is why I probably won't bother doing an add on 42 cog to a 10spd cassette but I'm not trying to spend $200 on an xtr cassette, $125 on a rear xtr shifter and $225 on a new xtr rd. Wouldn't it be nice if I could just take my existing xt shadow+ rd and have it work with the new 11 SPD shifter? If that is the case, then they may get me to buy a cassette and new shifter

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  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    I have no problem saying that using the same hub is definitely nice but if getting a new wheel set anyways, its easy enough to get a hub where you can swap out the required hub body/driver. But the other turnoff for me is not wanting to pay xtr type money for a 1x drive train. I'll be curious as to how long it takes them to go 11 speed down the line. They just now are going 11 speed on the 105 line on the road side of things

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    This groupo looks to me like it's designed to go down the line.

    When you look at xx1- that cassettte is a work of art and ain't getting any cheaper any time soon. Shimano have gone with std design with nothing at looks hard to produce, nor hard for manufacturers to replicate (eg freehub body)

    The big selling groupo for shimano I think is XT, they use xtr for perceived value, and build sales into XT by making them close. Id almost guarantee next year will see xt 11 speed

  12. #412
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    You are probably right in that. Regarding xx1, many people balk at the cost of the cassette but I haven't heard much talk of people wearing g it out. For one, in a 1x system you end up spreading the use around a whole lot more. I wouldn't mind paying big bucks for that cassette because it does give significant added range that shimano doesn't.

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  13. #413
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    Not to go too far off the rails, but is it possible to extend the range of the current XTR 11-36 10-spd cassette to a 13-40?

    Could you remove the 11T cog, put a lock ring on the 13T, then add a 40 on the low side? That would make a 13-40 10 speed with normal gaps, which I could totally live with.

  14. #414
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    Ive heard of it being done with a modified lock ring.

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  15. #415
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    13-40 has less range than 11-36.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    13-40 has less range than 11-36.
    Fine...but I'm looking for more low end, willing to sacrifice the high end. Just wondering if it's possible.

    Heck, I've been exclusively on a 29er singlespeed for the past several years.

  17. #417
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    Then wouldn't it be easier to change the chainring, or are you already on a smaller one?

  18. #418
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    Well, my front-runner comes stock as a 2x10 setup with a 38-26, but for local riding, I'd make it a 1x10 with a 32. On those rare occasions I go to the mountains, I'd put the front shifter & mech back on with the two chainrings.

    Converting the 11-36 to a 13-40 may not be worthwhile, I admit...just wondering if it's an option.

  19. #419
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    Then wouldn't it be easier to change the chainring, or are you already on a smaller one?
    There are side effects to putting a smaller single ring on the front. Specifically more pedal feedback and more chain drops if no retention device.

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  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    Well, my front-runner comes stock as a 2x10 setup with a 38-26, but for local riding, I'd make it a 1x10 with a 32. On those rare occasions I go to the mountains, I'd put the front shifter & mech back on with the two chainrings.

    Converting the 11-36 to a 13-40 may not be worthwhile, I admit...just wondering if it's an option.
    Enjoy the read 11-42T conversion: OneUp vs. Wolf Tooth

    I even have a Token 12t lock ring if you end up doing this.

    I have a 42t Wolftooth, but the chain line just isn't going to work out for me. So if you order a 40t and want the lock ring let me know.
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  21. #421
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    XTR Di2 Derailleurs

    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-le_derailleur_arriere_du_groupe_shimano_xtr_di2.jpg

  22. #422
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  23. #423
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    So awesome !

  24. #424
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    So ugly!!

  25. #425
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    So expensive!
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  26. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    There are side effects to putting a smaller single ring on the front. Specifically more pedal feedback and more chain drops if no retention device.
    Depending on the suspension design anyway. Some designs are less affected by chainring sizes than others. Single pivot bikes are pretty particular though.




    Quote Originally Posted by dgw7000 View Post
    So ugly!!
    We've seen a lot worse in recent years.

    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    So expensive!
    It's Di2, did you expect it to be affordable? It's in line with what they charge for Di2 on the road side of things.

  27. #427
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    Cant wait, my order is in. 26/36. Not only do Shimano design things to work well and last, its priced way better than SRAM. a new casette for SRAM xx1 is .....? take a morgage.
    never mind the fact that you have to buy a new castette mount for your hub. they have had the monopoly for some time, they have taken the piss now they going to get the feel for competition. the OEM side is surly going to side on the cheaper option.
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  28. #428
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by SLIP TIP View Post
    Cant wait, my order is in. 26/36. Not only do Shimano design things to work well and last, its priced way better than SRAM. a new casette for SRAM xx1 is .....? take a morgage.
    never mind the fact that you have to buy a new castette mount for your hub. they have had the monopoly for some time, they have taken the piss now they going to get the feel for competition. the OEM side is surly going to side on the cheaper option.
    people want 1x drivetrains. That's why xx1 blows this out of the water. The SRAM hub driver is only an extra 80 bucks and I that's what it takes to get a 10t cog, so be it. People are more interested in adequate range then electronic shifting. The one saving grace of this shimano system is the electronic version let's you program the shifting of both the front and rear so you can sort of have the feel of a 1x with all the range

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  29. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    people want 1x drivetrains.
    Well actually One Chain Ring will always have less range than a dual, and when you have a system that operates a dual or triple with a single shifter, as Di2 does, I am not so sure going single makes much sense (unless you are a pro). And Di2 blows everything else out of the water in terms of ergonomics and shifting performance ... in its first race it has already won a WC event.

    Give it 5 years and we will all be on Di2 or similar and I think nobody will even remember XX1.

  30. #430
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    >people want 1x drivetrains.

    Some people want 1x drivetrains. People who actually ride up mountains need a bigger gear spread.

  31. #431
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    Of course 1 chain ring will have less range but SRAM has already shown us that a very realistic usable range can be had with a single ring without sacrificing top or bottom end. This is a bit of a failure in that regard. Also, the technology doesn't trickle down to reasonable price points fast enough so in 5 years you will see very few using di2

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  32. #432
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    IMO both 1x and 2x have their benefits. It's not one size fits all. 1x is simpler and lighter, with no exposure to mis-shifting in the front. 2x allows a wider range and the ability to keep gear ratio jumps close; it also allows you to make a large gear ratio change with a single front shift. I would be more likely to put a 2x on a bike that sees a lot of time in the high mountains, and a 1x in terrain where extended climbs aren't common place.

    On the road there's no question. I'd opt for a 2x any day. Close gear ratio jumps make a much bigger difference in that application. Try a fast group ride or race with 4 tooth jumps between each shift... assuming you aren't a lot stronger than the rest of the group it's either going to be painful or you're likely getting dropped on big sudden accelerations. There's a reason people sacrifice range on the road to get 1 tooth jumps between most shifts.

    I'm just happy to see evolution on both single and double drivetrains. I don't plan on buying XTR di2, but may change my tune in another year or two once it trickles down to the XT level and has the kinks worked out. Wireless would also be a bonus, assuming batteries aren't extremely cumbersome/needy.

  33. #433
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    IMO both 1x and 2x have their benefits. It's not one size fits all. 1x is simpler and lighter, with no exposure to mis-shifting in the front. 2x allows a wider range and the ability to keep gear ratio jumps close; it also allows you to make a large gear ratio change with a single front shift. I would be more likely to put a 2x on a bike that sees a lot of time in the high mountains, and a 1x in terrain where extended climbs aren't common place.

    On the road there's no question. I'd opt for a 2x any day. Close gear ratio jumps make a much bigger difference in that application. Try a fast group ride or race with 4 tooth jumps between each shift... assuming you aren't a lot stronger than the rest of the group it's either going to be painful or you're likely getting dropped on big sudden accelerations. There's a reason people sacrifice range on the road to get 1 tooth jumps between most shifts.

    I'm just happy to see evolution on both the single and double drivetrains. I don't plan on buying XTR di2, but may change my tune in another year or two once it trickles down to the XT level and has the kinks worked out. Wireless would also be a bonus, assuming batteries aren't extremely cumbersome/needy.
    I had to go 1x because of my new frame. I'll admit it's kicking my ass. We don't have extended climbs, but we do have rolling hills with quick ups and I miss the FD dump for those.
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  34. #434
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    1x seams to be a weight thing and quiet honestly unless ur on it every day. Pro style, it wouldn't work for me. We deal with serious hills on the south coast. Burry Stander country. 2 x is great for me. However I would love the weight saving of the 1x. SRAM is going to take a hell of a beating. XTR is too good and BMC, trek and giant put up a good show this weekend.
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  35. #435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preston67 View Post
    >people want 1x drivetrains.

    Some people want 1x drivetrains. People who actually ride up mountains need a bigger gear spread.
    you dont need that bailout gear. you just think you do.

  36. #436
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by bigfruits View Post
    you dont need that bailout gear. you just think you do.
    You do not need your 10-42 cassette. You just think you do. 11-40 is enough.

  37. #437
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    11 - 40.... perfect. Shimano recon its the most successfull gear ratio change yet. The hole thing is about keeping the rhythm. So they say.
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  38. #438
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    I'm convinced that the "rythme" argument from shimano is only a microscopical benefit only valuable for some computerized pro racers. For most professionals and for the rest of the planet its just a marcketing thing.
    The 1x 10-42 cassettes have won serious competitions around the world and they will still be winning in 5 years. But yes, probably in a electrified derailleur version...

  39. #439
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by in-vico View Post
    .
    The 1x 10-42 cassettes have won serious competitions around the world.
    So did 3x7, 1x12-28, 2x11-32, .... What do competitions have to do with gear choice for pretty much all of us?

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    I talk about competition to explain that the shimano "rythm" concept is a pure performance oriented argument, mostly for marketing purposes. If xx1 and others non-rythme groupsets have won international competitions recently, that means that shimano "rythme" concept is totaly useless for about 99.99999999999...% of us.

  41. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by in-vico View Post
    I talk about competition to explain that the shimano "rythm" concept is a pure performance oriented argument, mostly for marketing purposes. If xx1 and others non-rythme groupsets have won international competitions recently, that means that shimano "rythme" concept is totaly useless for about 99.99999999999...% of us.
    You can take your same argument and insert 1x11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You can take your same argument and insert 1x11
    I dont follow you here. 1x11 offers more realistic advantages than the "rythme" concept:
    -weight
    -reliability
    -quiet riding
    -better mud clearance
    -simpler maintenance
    -ditching the FD makes possible to design 29er frames with shorter chainstays(shortest example known is the honzo with 415mm) for a 26er like manoeuvrability on 29er wheels.

    Well, all that to say that I still think that 1x will remain the most popular choice, even if theire matched derailleurs will probably become electric too.

  43. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by in-vico View Post
    I dont follow you here. 1x11 offers more realistic advantages than the "rythme" concept:
    -weight
    -reliability
    -quiet riding
    -better mud clearance
    -simpler maintenance
    -ditching the FD makes possible to design 29er frames with shorter chainstays(shortest example known is the honzo with 415mm) for a 26er like manoeuvrability on 29er wheels.

    Well, all that to say that I still think that 1x will remain the most popular choice, even if theire matched derailleurs will probably become electric too.
    Wut? You do know that you can ride new Shimano 1x11, with just a slighly more narrow range, but the exact same advantages? So how is "Rhythm" affect any of that? In fact, you can ride 1x10 with the same advantages, but cheaper, and with sturdier Shimano derailleur, such as Zee. The only advantage for SRAM is a slightly wider range at the cost of proprietary freehub and expensive cassettes. But it has no option to go 2x11 for even wider range - with a chanring swap and adding shifter/derailler.

    As far as shorter chainstays, it seems that the new side pull FD should address the clearance issues.

  44. #444
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    Wit the new sram X1, for lots cheaper than xtr you have a ultra wide 1x gearset. There is no match to that anywhere. I'm tired, here its almost 2h a.m. I will follow tomorrow... maybe....

  45. #445
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    Two rings up front ain't all bad...

    Some bikes actually climb better in the granny. Some will complain of more pedal feedback, but I'd call it more anti-squat. Many suspension designs give you more of this with the chain angle coming off the granny. It can be a good thing.

    On the 9 speed drive trains front ring shifting under any kind of power was a big no-no. I've now only been on 10 speed a few years and am surprised at how far I can push a front shift under power.

    Dropping a bunch of gears with one click of the FD is nice. I've heard folks overcoming the inherent problem with this on XX1 by going with a Grip shift.

    Tough, steep climbs are best in the granny. Closely spaced gears out back to shift through on tough techie climbs are nice. Also, on extended climbing I find putting it in the granny lets me use much more of the cassette. If I were on a xx1 I think I'd live almost exclusively in the upper half of the cassette.

    The low end is where XX1 seems to be lacking. Especially for 29ers.

    XX1 does seem very appealing. No FD, quiet, lighter, frees up space on the bar for a dropper lever, etc... these are all great things.

    Happily watching the show and waiting until my 10 speed stuff dies.
    Last edited by Miker J; 06-04-2014 at 03:10 AM.

  46. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by in-vico View Post
    I dont follow you here. 1x11 offers more realistic advantages than the "rythme" concept:
    -weight
    -reliability
    -quiet riding
    -better mud clearance
    -simpler maintenance
    -ditching the FD makes possible to design 29er frames with shorter chainstays(shortest example known is the honzo with 415mm) for a 26er like manoeuvrability on 29er wheels.

    Well, all that to say that I still think that 1x will remain the most popular choice, even if theire matched derailleurs will probably become electric too.
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  47. #447
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    Im currently on XT 11-36. 2x. And I love the dump option. BUT I also feel that the difference between the last 3 cas rings are very noticable. If that transition is better with the 9020 im all over it. I should be getting my set 1st week august. I will feed back.
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  48. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigfruits View Post
    you dont need that bailout gear. you just think you do.
    You don't pedal up steep mountain trails, you just think you do

  49. #449
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    Got some 22%. Regular 16 to 18.
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  50. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I had to go 1x because of my new frame. I'll admit it's kicking my ass. We don't have extended climbs, but we do have rolling hills with quick ups and I miss the FD dump for those.
    you can dump a lot of gears with gripshift

  51. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by syl3 View Post
    you can dump a lot of gears with gripshift
    Nope not an option.
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  52. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    See Devinci Atlas
    Of course with 430mm chainstays there is some options. See too the Kona Process 111 and the Specialized enduro 29.
    But some 26ers fullsusp. AM bikes have sub 420mm chainstays and still maintaining room for big DH tired(and I dont talk about sub 400mm hardtails). So too drop under 430mm on a 29er you have to ditch the FD. Here is one of the advantages of wide 1x11 gearsets.

  53. #453
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    Meh. SRAM 1x11 has basically the same range as my 2x9 32-22 x 11-34. That's good enough for me and allows:
    - solid chain retention
    - tire clearance on a short chainstay 29er (Satori)
    - less weight/stuff on the bars
    - I actually prefer the larger ratio steps of 1x11. I'm usually clicking off two gears at a time with 1x10

    At the same time, I completely understand many would prefer the extra range and finer steps of 2x11. I don't think either one is inherently "better" than the other. I think 1x11 got so much attention because a lot of people were asking for a wide range 1x solution for years.

  54. #454
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    Ive seen the grip shift work well with the xx1
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    So im looking everywhere and theres not a mention of a new hub for the Shimano system...soooo im assuming its just a straight swap of the cassette?

    1 X 11, 1 X 10 10-36... as long as i can fit a fron ring that makes it similar to a Front 26 Rear 36 then i think id be happy...fitting a Sram 1 x 11 to a frame ive got and so ive picked a 30T front for the 42T Rear.

  56. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewfuzzy View Post
    So im looking everywhere and theres not a mention of a new hub for the Shimano system...soooo im assuming its just a straight swap of the cassette?

    1 X 11, 1 X 10 10-36... as long as i can fit a fron ring that makes it similar to a Front 26 Rear 36 then i think id be happy...fitting a Sram 1 x 11 to a frame ive got and so ive picked a 30T front for the 42T Rear.
    26", 27.5 or 29er?

  57. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by in-vico View Post
    26", 27.5 or 29er?
    29er

  58. #458
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    Does anyone know when the XTR M9000 stuff will be available? Trying to decide if I want to invest in a 40T cog now or wait.

  59. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by llamma View Post
    Does anyone know when the XTR M9000 stuff will be available? Trying to decide if I want to invest in a 40T cog now or wait.
    Maybe late September, probably October.

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    Well I starting looking into it and Shimano really screwed this one up.

    It has nothing to do with the 11-40 cassette, they are on their 3rd ISpec iteration and of course this one isn't compatible with A or B.

    No fin way I'm buying new brakes to go with this setup and I don't want to go back to 2 clamps.
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  61. #461
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    Well I starting looking into it and Shimano really screwed this one up.

    It has nothing to do with the 11-40 cassette, they are on their 3rd ISpec iteration and of course this one isn't compatible with A or B.

    No fin way I'm buying new brakes to go with this setup and I don't want to go back to 2 clamps.
    As the resident expert on this ... do you know the answers to these couple of questions?

    1) Are the last gen shifters still compatible with the new FRONT mechs? i know the rear wont be

    2) Is the cassette a straight swap on the hubs ( unlike sram)?

    My Niner front mech gets sticky with mud and the new mechanicals of the new XTR mech should solve that problem.

  62. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrewfuzzy View Post
    As the resident expert on this ... do you know the answers to these couple of questions?

    1) Are the last gen shifters still compatible with the new FRONT mechs? i know the rear wont be

    2) Is the cassette a straight swap on the hubs ( unlike sram)?

    My Niner front mech gets sticky with mud and the new mechanicals of the new XTR mech should solve that problem.
    I'm not the resident expert, just called Shimano directly before preordering.

    Cassette fits stock hubs.

    I didn't ask about a old shifter with new FD, call them and ask.

    All I asked about was ISpec 2 working with A or B and the answer was no.
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    Will the new xtr shifter work with a 10 speed XT derailleur? like the old 8 and 9 speed used to. Or will it be another slight change in the pull ratio so 10 and 11 won't work together.
    Uppo

  64. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by uppo View Post
    Will the new xtr shifter work with a 10 speed XT derailleur? like the old 8 and 9 speed used to. Or will it be another slight change in the pull ratio so 10 and 11 won't work together.
    Won't work

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    Thanks, I guessed that would be the case.
    Uppo

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