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  1. #151
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    The next trend in geared drivetrains, hopefully, doesn't include any sort of derailleur.
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  2. #152
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    I don't mind derailleurs. If it has batteries and servo motors though, I'm going all single speed.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by incubus View Post
    If shimano are crafty, their answer to sram's 1x11 would be a 1x12 system. Then they wouldn't have to answer to anybody until sram brings 1x13 to market. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to forecast what the next trend in drivetrains will be
    It doesn't take a rocket scientist, but it does take a good engineer. It seems like there should be a better design than a derailleur moving a chain across a bunch of cogs, especially for mtb. Derailleurs get broken, need regular adjustment, they freeze up in the winter, get snagged on branches and bashed on rocks. We need an internally geared hub that is reliable, shifts well under load, and isn't heavy. Maybe combined with belt drive to minimize any maintenance required.

  4. #154
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    I'm not even interested in 11 speeds, I just want wider range.

    I was wondering if we might someday see finer chain pitch. That would help mitigate uneven jumps between gears. For example, if you doubled the chain pitch (not claiming that's a good idea), your 11-36 could become an equivalent 22-72. Now you can make <5% changes on the top end instead of ~9%.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    I'm not even interested in 11 speeds, I just want wider range.

    I was wondering if we might someday see finer chain pitch. That would help mitigate uneven jumps between gears. For example, if you doubled the chain pitch (not claiming that's a good idea), your 11-36 could become an equivalent 22-72. Now you can make <5% changes on the top end instead of ~9%.
    I brought up exactly the same thing earlier in this thread and few people seemed to get it. I still like the idea, not of doubling it but of reducing it by 20% or so. I don't believe in 9 or 10 tooth cogs, but I would like to see an 11-tooth with a 20% smaller diameter, to add range that way. Keep the diameter of everything else about the same (just with about 20% more teeth). Better range, better ratios because your gear changes would be more uniform from one to the next. Poorer chain retention, but haven't we improved that significantly? I haven't dropped a chain from anything other than front shifting ever since getting Shadow+.

  6. #156
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutantclover View Post
    I brought up exactly the same thing earlier in this thread and few people seemed to get it. I still like the idea, not of doubling it but of reducing it by 20% or so. I don't believe in 9 or 10 tooth cogs, but I would like to see an 11-tooth with a 20% smaller diameter, to add range that way. Keep the diameter of everything else about the same (just with about 20% more teeth). Better range, better ratios because your gear changes would be more uniform from one to the next. Poorer chain retention, but haven't we improved that significantly? I haven't dropped a chain from anything other than front shifting ever since getting Shadow+.
    So you want a whole new standard on chains, rings, cassettes and derailleur pullies?

  7. #157
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    That's pretty much was happens as they add cogs anyway.

  8. #158
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    ^ No it is not. Shimano, SRAM and Campagnolo always claim that only the new bits will work together, but in reality some older stuff can often be mixed in. Since there are lots of potential combinations it is simpler to make a blanket statement that one must use only XXTR 13 speed than it is to say anything else, and if one follows directions then things should normally work. This does not mean no other combinations will work, but rather that one needs to understand how things work before considering making substitutions. As most people do not understand how things work, don't want to think about it, and might take legal action if annoyed, manufacturers' policy here is entirely understandable.

    Also, the problem with making cogs smaller in diameter will be cassette bodies and hub bearings - these have to fit somewhere and smaller diameter cogs mean less space is available. If one was going to change chain pitch it would in fact be more sensible mechanically to use cogs with *MORE* teeth and to use existing or larger diameter cassette bodies. Advantages here would be less load on the cassette teeth and chain, plus larger bearings and the possibility of closer ratios. 11T is already pushing it, and a mechanical engineering text I have suggests a minimum of 16T for power transmission. In any case, Shimano tried 10mm pitch in the 1970s and this was rejected by the market.

  9. #159
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    Shave 600 grams off an Alfine Di2 hub, develop a clever chain tensioning system, and Shimano trumps XX1...

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by brentos View Post
    Shave 600 grams off an Alfine Di2 hub, develop a clever chain tensioning system, and Shimano trumps XX1...
    Except in efficiency. A roller chain and multiple cogs will always transmit more power than planetary gears.
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  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Except in efficiency. A roller chain and multiple cogs will always transmit more power than planetary gears.
    Until the technology develops to where it doesn't. or is overcome by other factors.
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  12. #162
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    If you have an internally geared hub/gearbox, it really should be in the frame, not the rear hub. This would fairly radically change bicycle design, maybe having a "standard" place and setup for the gears above the cranks, but it would allow many things, the ability to "protect" the cables and some of the chain from the environments, allow for significantly less unsprung weight (as opposed to things like inverted forks that are not significant at all), better designed-symmetrical wheels, etc.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  13. #163
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Several years ago I thought we'd all be on gearbox bikes by now.

    With the introduction of SRAMs 1x11, I don't see us riding gearbox bike for the next several years....

    And If I'm honest with myself I've damages 2 derailuers in the last several so maybe it's not so bad.....especially with a potential gearbox bike weighing more than the "system" added together!

    Not unless a new manufacturing process or special light weight durable metal is found to make a gearbox.

    Unfortunately SRAM for the win and their backwards innovation of 1x

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    If you have an internally geared hub/gearbox, it really should be in the frame, not the rear hub. This would fairly radically change bicycle design, maybe having a "standard" place and setup for the gears above the cranks, but it would allow many things, the ability to "protect" the cables and some of the chain from the environments, allow for significantly less unsprung weight (as opposed to things like inverted forks that are not significant at all), better designed-symmetrical wheels, etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    Several years ago I thought we'd all be on gearbox bikes by now.

    With the introduction of SRAMs 1x11, I don't see us riding gearbox bike for the next several years....

    And If I'm honest with myself I've damages 2 derailuers in the last several so maybe it's not so bad.....especially with a potential gearbox bike weighing more than the "system" added together!

    Not unless a new manufacturing process or special light weight durable metal is found to make a gearbox.

    Unfortunately SRAM for the win and their backwards innovation of 1x


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  15. #165
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    ^ Very interesting as long as one doesn't mind that a special frame is required, the cost is extremely high, that limited crank lengths are available (i.e., no 172.5mm, etc), or that the Q factor is 174mm. Given all these factors, for me Rohloff still comes out ahead.

    It will be interesting to see what Shimano come up with by this time next year though - I suspect we're due for a new XTR groupset, and who knows what else.

  16. #166
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    Dear shimano, this is the 10-speed cassette with range 11-40t (11-13-15-17-20-23-26-30-34 + 40 alu cog).
    It is the same as my current XT 9spd 11-34 cassette with 40t sprocket. And this is everything what an average "1x user" want. Wide range, long life, low weight, classic freehub, 10spd compatibility and cheap option.
    You can make a 12 speed Di2 XTR group, but for us, mortal bikers is 11-40t 10spd cassette absolutely suffcient.
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-2013-10-18-676.jpg

  17. #167
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    Shimano believes in the front derailleur, sadly. I doubt we'll ever see a proper 1X11 groupo from them. If they really drop a Di2 mountain group I might cry - this is not what mountain bikers want. We want a stable wide range 1X system. I just don't think Shimano will ever produce this. I think Shimano's thought is that Sram could never make a FD actually work, so that's why they went the direction of simply removing it - that's a pretty ego driven thing to say/think but there's some truth to it. On the flip it turns out that XX1 is really really close to what we all wanted all along. Gear boxes are still 7 years out I think...
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  18. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem View Post
    If you have an internally geared hub/gearbox, it really should be in the frame, not the rear hub. This would fairly radically change bicycle design, maybe having a "standard" place and setup for the gears above the cranks, but it would allow many things, the ability to "protect" the cables and some of the chain from the environments, allow for significantly less unsprung weight (as opposed to things like inverted forks that are not significant at all), better designed-symmetrical wheels, etc.
    Lahar...


  19. #169
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    Zerode too

  20. #170
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    Well, lots really, from ones intended to use internally geared hubs in the frame to gearboxes in the frame. The internally geared hub is nice because you can take it in and out as one unit, but there are other valid ways to do it. There have been lots of DH bikes, and a few hardtails that have done this.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  21. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Lahar...



    Ewwwwww!
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  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Ewwwwww!
    It's a Trimble with warts n' tumors n' sh1t all over it.
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    It's a Trimble with warts n' tumors n' sh1t all over it.
    Trimble: there's a name ( in MTB ) that I haven't heard in a dog's age. Ah, memories...

  24. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    Several years ago I thought we'd all be on gearbox bikes by now.

    With the introduction of SRAMs 1x11, I don't see us riding gearbox bike for the next several years....

    And If I'm honest with myself I've damages 2 derailuers in the last several so maybe it's not so bad.....especially with a potential gearbox bike weighing more than the "system" added together!

    Not unless a new manufacturing process or special light weight durable metal is found to make a gearbox.

    Unfortunately SRAM for the win and their backwards innovation of 1x
    1st off I have been using a Rohloff Speedhub for over 9 years and love it for riding in Mud and for cycle touring! But the one thing that is going to stop Hub Gear's and Gearbox Mountain Bike's is that STD axle size's and cranks are changing so fast that know one will make a Gear Hub, Gearbox to fit all set up's.
    I did ask one of the head designer's from Sram about this and the reply was No way at this time! Sad but i'm looking forward to my new MTB with XO1 on it..


    Pete...

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    It's a Trimble with warts n' tumors n' sh1t all over it.
    indeed; and i love(d) them both. the trimble is long since dead; hanging wall art now, but the lahar is still running strong after 7 seasons. brilliant bike. the drivetrain has been flawless with next to no maintenance (apart from lubing chains). gearboxes rock. hopefully one day we'll see a viable trailbike from someone (zerode??).

  26. #176
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    I have been a advocate of 1x(9-10-whatever) for a long time. However, after moving to steeper terrain, and then trying a 2x10, I am kinda sold on the front shifting again.

    The rear excels at giving your legs the cadence they want. However, I find myself loving being able to dump or gain a bunch of gears at once on the front side, when I hit an unexpected up or downhill, where I dont have many pedal rotations to get all set.

    I think, that is why Shimano is sticking to their guns on front shifting. I agree with it.

    However, on the East Coast, or more mild terrian in general, 1x's work great because you can anticipate terrain changes better, and have less need for a very low gear.

    BLUF: Going back to double fronts and 9 speed rear.

  27. #177
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    I feel exactly the opposite when riding steep technical terrain. I live in BC and when riding down a steep section followed by a steep uphill, I'd rather be able to get into my easiest gear with just one thumb motion on my right hand, so my left can get my seatpost back up to climbing height.

    I've been riding with a 30tooth narrow-wide chainring from Raceface and a General Lee 40 tooth cassette with shimano shifters. Works great. Absolutely silent. Never had a dropped chain. Much simpler and now my dropper post can go under the bar on the left where your thumb can activate it without putting your thumb in a vulnerable position as it is when you run the dropper post on the top of the bar.

    I'm running this setup now on my everything bike, but will likely run this way as well on my XC race bike at the start of next season, until I find out what Shimano's got up their sleeve. I cannot imagine that they haven't got some form of single ring system to release either spring or mid-summer. I'll never buy a bike with a front derailleur again. I'm sure in 2 years all the XT or higher level bikes won't have front derailleurs.

  28. #178
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    I disagree that a single front allows you to get in climb mode quickly. It takes me two full pushes to get on the low end of the cassette. (unless grip shift?)

    I can get there in half the time with the front.

    However, if it works for you with the dropper post, that makes a lot of sense.

  29. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    I have been a advocate of 1x(9-10-whatever) for a long time. However, after moving to steeper terrain, and then trying a 2x10, I am kinda sold on the front shifting again.
    I think the low front gear is needed only on steep looong mountain uphills that takes more than an hour.
    There are budget shimano 1x10 riders with 30t/32t front, 11-42t rear setup who have kept the 24t front ring.
    They shift by hand or by foot on those long uphills.

    If anyone says 2x is better tnan 1x that's FINE but it is because he doesn't ride enough mud (blocked front shifting, chain suck and so on) or his bike is light enough (so 1lb saving doesn't matter much) or is too relaxed (so shifting with both hands is a good exercise and chain noise -without X-Sync- is pleasant)

  30. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweetness View Post
    I'm sure in 2 years all the XT or higher level bikes won't have front derailleurs.
    Not a chance IMO, but we'll see...

    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    I disagree that a single front allows you to get in climb mode quickly. It takes me two full pushes to get on the low end of the cassette. (unless grip shift?)
    Grip Shift is excellent, but the reports about breakages with XX1 have been a bit worrying.

    By this time next year we should all know what Shimano are doing for the next few years, as I expect a new XTR group will have surfaced. My guess is that XTR will not offer triple chainwheels ever again, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 11 speed at the rear and/or the option of 1x at the front along with 2x. Really though I'm only guessing, like everyone else at this point. :-)

  31. #181
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    I didn't say 2x is better than 1x. Its just different. Out here, I don't deal with mud, my bike is 23 pounds geared and fully suspended. 1 more pound in the center of the frame won't make or break me. However, I am not strong enough to climb for 1500 feet in 32-34, so I need something a little lower. (And I'm not buying a $250 general lee).

    I'm mud 1x makes complete sense. Once someone makes a reliable, production, cheap 11-40 10 speed cassette, ill get on board. 9 speed will work for now.

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  32. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    I didn't say 2x is better than 1x.
    Sorry, I didn't think that's what you'd meant; I agree all with your comments!

  33. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    Not a chance IMO, but we'll see...



    Grip Shift is excellent, but the reports about breakages with XX1 have been a bit worrying.

    By this time next year we should all know what Shimano are doing for the next few years, as I expect a new XTR group will have surfaced. My guess is that XTR will not offer triple chainwheels ever again, and I wouldn't be surprised to see 11 speed at the rear and/or the option of 1x at the front along with 2x. Really though I'm only guessing, like everyone else at this point. :-)
    I hope they don't get rid of triples, because the gearing on Shimano's doubles doesn't make much sense for 29ers. A 38t ring on a 29er is like a 42t ring on a 26"-wheeled bike. No thanks! I have been using a "triple" with the big ring taken off ever since going to a 29er and it works almost perfectly. Every once in awhile on road stretches I have to spin just a little faster than optimum. NBD. At least I don't slam my ring on every boulder, log etc.

  34. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutantclover View Post
    I hope they don't get rid of triples, because the gearing on Shimano's doubles doesn't make much sense for 29ers. A 38t ring on a 29er is like a 42t ring on a 26"-wheeled bike. No thanks! I have been using a "triple" with the big ring taken off ever since going to a 29er and it works almost perfectly. Every once in awhile on road stretches I have to spin just a little faster than optimum. NBD. At least I don't slam my ring on every boulder, log etc.
    I played with the gearing calculator before settling on an XT triple for my 29er--when they can be had for just under $150, it's not too bad forgoing the latest and greatest 1X11 stuff.

  35. #185
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Bummer I love Shimano, but no rumors or hints! I went out today & bought X01. I wonder how many people Shimano is losing? When I look at the magazines & racing, there sure are a lot of racers using XX1.


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    Quote Originally Posted by GSPChilliwack View Post
    I played with the gearing calculator before settling on an XT triple for my 29er--when they can be had for just under $150, it's not too bad forgoing the latest and greatest 1X11 stuff.
    Yeah - the XT group is a steal. I can't believe you can get that level of engineering for so little. The XT hollowcrank is a piece of engineering art, I have it on all my bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Bummer I love Shimano, but no rumors or hints! I went out today & bought X01. I wonder how many people Shimano is losing? When I look at the magazines & racing, there sure are a lot of racers using XX1.


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    I think shimano will have to make a 1x10 or 1x11 drive system. They simply have to, the demand it there. It would be suicide not to.

    That being said 1x11 is going through a bit of a hype phase right now. It is really good but with time more people will realize that it's not a universal magic bullet that works for everybody either.

    If you do a lot of long climbs followed by long fast decents it's hard to get around having at least two front chainrings. Well - you could but you'd need something like a +50 tooth sprocket at the rear and a massive rear derailleur. The stepping between gears wouldn't be the best either.

  37. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    Bummer I love Shimano, but no rumors or hints! I went out today & bought X01. I wonder how many people Shimano is losing? When I look at the magazines & racing, there sure are a lot of racers using XX1.


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    I guess it depends. Having had Sram on my Specialized, I'm in no hurry to ever run their stuff again. I can wait.
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  38. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoEars View Post

    That being said 1x11 is going through a bit of a hype phase right now. It is really good but with time more people will realize that it's not a universal magic bullet that works for everybody either.

    If you do a lot of long climbs followed by long fast decents it's hard to get around having at least two front chainrings. Well - you could but you'd need something like a +50 tooth sprocket at the rear and a massive rear derailleur. The stepping between gears wouldn't be the best either.
    I've got to respectively disagree with you on this one. Everything is a compromise, so one system can never be a magic bullet. Take for example with 2x10 or 3x10, if you ride really aggressive on rough terrain, the chain will most likely fall off & get much worse as the system wears.

    But it is the magic bullet for people who have been running 1x9 or 1x10 or people on the fence of 1x whatever. I've been running 1x9 & 1x10 for the last 3years & to me this is the magic bullet. I run 32front & 10-42rear. It has all the low gearing I could ever want, with plenty of top speed. The only place I've ever felt I needed more top end was a dirt road down hill or pavement, both places I try to avoid at all cost. I've pedaled my 1x10 all over some of the highest parts of Lake Tahoe, yes it was tough, but doable & with 1x11 it will be much easier! I honestly can't recall the last time anyone pulled away from me on the down hill, because I didn't have enough top end.

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    I guess it depends. Having had Sram on my Specialized, I'm in no hurry to ever run their stuff again. I can wait.
    I had Sram XO on my 2nd bike & I can't wait to put my XTR with a clutched derailleur that I took off my main bike on to it. I never felt like the Sram XO shifted that well. My brother bought XX1 & I spent a week riding his bike. That's what sold me on X01. This is the quietest drive train out there period, it's almost eerie, because you're not use to that silence! The shifts are much improved & faster over their older stuff.

  39. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbbiker View Post
    I've got to respectively disagree with you on this one. Everything is a compromise, so one system can never be a magic bullet.
    I think you misunderstand me, that's exactly my point as well. No system is a magic bullet, everything is a compromise. 1x10 or 1x11 is a fantastic system, I'm absolutely not arguing that.

  40. #190
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    What are you using to get 10-42? Is that with a Shimano 10sp? I'd love a 10-40 or 10-42 10speed setup from Shimano. Making it work with existing hubs and shifters would be huge.

  41. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by jselwyn View Post
    What are you using to get 10-42? Is that with a Shimano 10sp? I'd love a 10-40 or 10-42 10speed setup from Shimano. Making it work with existing hubs and shifters would be huge.
    On some friends bikes & have fitted the X01 cassette on there wheel ( there wheels could take a XD driver ) & just fitted it to there 10 speed setup ( it was sram but it should still work with a shimano ) & just used the 1st 10 geaes ( 42-11 )

    Last week I got a couple of X01 cassette's off CRC for $264 US each, Delivered

    So still not cheap, But a good option all the same.

    Note: They needed a new chain anyway so put an XX1 chain on there 10 speed setup.
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  42. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    on some friends bikes & have fitted the x01 cassette on there wheel ( there wheels could take a xd driver ) & just fitted it to there 10 speed setup ( it was sram but it should still work with a shimano ) & just used the 1st 10 geaes ( 42-11 )

    last week i got a couple of x01 cassette's off crc for $264 us each, delivered

    so still not cheap, but a good option all the same.

    Note: They needed a new chain anyway so put an xx1 chain on there 10 speed setup.
    Their!

    How does that work? Isn't the spacing between the gears smaller with 11 speed?
    Supply Side Jesusnomosist

  43. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Their!

    How does that work? Isn't the spacing between the gears smaller with 11 speed?
    No, The 1st gear is dished to make it closer to the spokes & the 11th gear doesn't have the same old lock ring that we are used to, So the 11th gear is a little closer to the frame.

    So the cassette is wider than the 10 speed so they could keep the same spacing, Were as with the 9 & 10 speed cassette's they have made them the same width so the spacing is closer on the 10 than on the 9.

    When my friended smashed his XX1 derailleur on a log, I put a 10 speed shifter & derailleur onto his bike running the XX1 cassette.

    I Also some times use a wheel with a 10 speed cassette on my bike with XX1 ( Just to save good tires ) The gears just need to be tuned to only use the 1st 10 gears.
    Raising money, my friend broke his neck Mtbing, Please Share link. http://givealittle.co.nz/cause/elliottkeys/donations

  44. #194
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    May be a new XTR cassette:


  45. #195
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    A well known pro sponsored by Shimano says watch early in 2014 for a Shimano announcement to the 42t cog cassettes.....will be 10spd though.

  46. #196
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    2014 Sea Otter will be the launch for this new system... me thinks.

  47. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by < T.R.E.K > View Post
    May be a new XTR cassette:

    That's the Leonardi 9-42, not Shimano. I'd love to see such an offering from Shimano, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm quite surprised someone like Microshift or KCNC haven't jumped in to fill this void. Here's hoping!

  48. #198
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    Delete

  49. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    A well known pro sponsored by Shimano says watch early in 2014 for a Shimano announcement to the 42t cog cassettes.....will be 10spd though.
    Fine by me...bring it on!

  50. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    A well known pro sponsored by Shimano says watch early in 2014 for a Shimano announcement to the 42t cog cassettes.....will be 10spd though.
    Perfect! Who needs 11 speed! 10 speed works perfectly with 11x42. 9 speed would also work fine: 11-13-15-18-22-26-31-36-42

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