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  1. #76
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    I think if they just made a 10-speed 11-40 cassette that works with existing drivetrains and shifts well it would be big hit. They could also make some drop-stop style chain rings to go with it, but the aftermarket has that pretty well covered.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by jabrabu View Post
    I think if they just made a 10-speed 11-40 cassette that works with existing drivetrains and shifts well it would be big hit. They could also make some drop-stop style chain rings to go with it, but the aftermarket has that pretty well covered.
    Probably need a new RD for that.

  3. #78
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    Even if Shimano came out with something new tomorrow, I doubt it will be less expansive than that the XX1 and the X01. If I was willing to drop that kind of money on a new drivetrain, I would have done so by now.

    Unless Shimano releases something at a lower price point off that bat, it really doesn't make much of a difference to me what they come out with at this time.

  4. #79
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by cyberavner View Post
    Even if Shimano came out with something new tomorrow, I doubt it will be less expansive than that the XX1 and the X01. If I was willing to drop that kind of money on a new drivetrain, I would have done so by now.

    Unless Shimano releases something at a lower price point off that bat, it really doesn't make much of a difference to me what they come out with at this time.
    I'm with you on this, even though I prefer Shimano....

    The longer Shimano drag their feet the more it doesn't matter to me......get it Shimano!

  5. #80
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    FWIW, it's extremely unlikely that there will be anything new or radical from Shimano this year at the August/September trade shows. There are a few new things, but the only new higher-level MTB bits are updated XTR brakes and cranksets with 40x30x22T or 38x24T, supposedly for bikes with 27.7/29" wheels. Yes there are a few other things too, but the big news is really 11 speed Ultegra which will have a Di2 hydraulic disc option from about November. All this stuff has been announced over the last few months, and there was nothing else hinted at during the AU 2014 dealer product launches during the last few weeks.

    I too was hoping for something like an 11-44T cassette that would fit existing hubs, but not this year. I'm sure that whatever Shimano come out with will not require or fit on an XD driver, but we'll have to wait until next year to see what's in the pipeline. It's interesting that Shimano have been later to market with 11 speed (than Campagnolo) and with 2x10 (SRAM), but with any luck everything will be fully sorted when it finally hits the deck. With all the new fatbikes and quasi-fatbikes coming out, it seems like Shimano are losing market share by having nothing to compete with XX1.

    I'm expecting new XTR (and maybe XT) groupsets to be announced next year...

  6. #81
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    More thoughts

    Well since nobody liked my other idea, here is something more realistic. To create a superior 1-X drivetrain, Shimano is going to use the two technologies they already have that SRAM does not. The steel/carbon chainring and Di2. With Di2 you have effectively zero slop in your rear derailleur. Front shifting is what is most likely to damage a chain because you are pushing the loaded part of the chain laterally, so if you remove front shifting, your chain doesn't have to be as laterally strong. (Think about it, every time you've broken a chain the roller had pulled out of the outer plate right?) Thus it makes sense that they can make the chain narrower without it snapping, and thanks to the precision of Di2, make rear cog spacing narrower, without having derailleur alignment problems.

    The steel teeth on the chainring allow them to get away with narrower teeth from a wear/deformation perspective, while the carbon reinforcement prevents the chainring from folding even if it is the largest chainring and there is no bashguard. (See reasons steel alone is not commonly used for chainrings here, question #7: Frequently Asked Questions).


    Basically, Shimano should be able to pull off an even narrower chain and narrower cogs with the tech they already have, as long as its combined with the benefits that come along with no front shifting. So lets say that gets you an 11th gear all on its own. But IIRC, SRAM didn't really change the cog spacing for XX1, all they did was add an 11th cog next to the spokes, which is possible because the cog has such a large radius. If Shimano also puts a larger rear cog inboard like SRAM did, they should be able to go straight to 12 speed (and the cassette range that goes with it) while simultaneously introducing Di2 for MTB. And you would end up with a drivetrain that is better than XX1 in several ways.

    It would take them a long time to work all this out. I mean just mountain Di2, OR their first 1X drivetrain is a big project. Combining both makes tons of sense to me, but would be exponentially more work for their R&D.

    So there it is. Flame away.

    PS - those that want something inexpensive such as a larger range cassette for 9 or 10 speed - its perfectly possible but we all know the big money stuff always comes out first. Plus, IMO Shimano (and most manufacturing that comes out of Japan) is a company that doesn't like to make products with any kind of functional compromise. In their eyes, I'm sure having gear ratios that are higher than optimum is an example of such a compromise. (I know, I know, to many of us, the front derailleur is a much bigger compromise.) Also, as someone else pointed out, they would need the derailleurs to accommodate a very large variety of cassettes which would be a compromise as well.

  7. #82
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    Mutantclover, I like your thinking overall.

    I don't think they need to go much narrower on the cogs and chain, though. They already have 11-speed road groups that use a standard freehub, so that just needs to be adapted to a wider gear range for mtb use.

    I think we will see a Di2 XTR 11-speed drivetrain at some point (or maybe 12-speed as you suggested). And it will be super expensive. Eventually it will trickle down to XT and maybe SLX and be somewhat more affordable, but still not cheap.

    The other issue is what is the market for a system like this? Pro racers or other sponsored riders would likely use it, but what about the general market? Apparently there are enough people buying $10k bikes and Dura-Ace Di2 drivetrains that they keep making them, so there's probably a market for an ultra-expensive mtb group if it performs better than XX1.

  8. #83
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    I really don't care for the Shimano way anymore.....they've lost their way.

  9. #84
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    Now Mr Shimano lets get this Alfine Di2 on a mountain bike?

  10. #85
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    A long time ago now, Shimano patented a system that used a weird chain and had 14 cogs, two of which were mounted inboard of the cassette body, i.e., cantilevered over the spokes. This hasn't appeared, and it may be that the chain didn't really work, but there's no reason large sprockets cannot move further inboard; the rear mech isn't going to hit the spokes anyway.

    BTW, I cannot see how Di2 adds anything other than complication, expense and the probability of troubles after stream or river crossings. Bear in mind that road bikes get ridden in the rain, but typically do NOT have their drivetrains submerged, something that happens quite often off-road, in some areas/events at least.

    The simplest way for Shimano to come out with an XX1 answer (assuming they don't have a different/better idea) would be to use their existing freehub bodies, and add an extra cog (or two) inboard. This would require a new shifter and RD, but existing wheels could be used. Of course, Shimano might choose to modify the hub spacing somehow too.

  11. #86
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    I have Ultegra Di2 and XX1. Di2 blows away XX1 in the mud, in the rain, on grass and probably long term. A quick search on Jenson says an XX1 rear derailleur costs $305 and Ultegra Di2 is $249.

    Whatever Shimano comes up with will instantly make XX1 old news. Be patient, the next XTR will be worth it.

  12. #87
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    That said, we have GOT to get away from this chain/cog/derailleur bullshyte.
    Di2, 12 speed...all piggy lipstick.

    We will get a REAL performance breakthrough when all of this crap is internal, strong, light, and efficient.
    It is clear that cost is basically no object....
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  13. #88
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    ^ Rohloff solves just about all problems except weight and cost, but of course isn't Shimano.

  14. #89
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    Well, weight, cost, and performance (efficiency). I envision a 3rd gen of internals that will make a Rohloff look like a Sturmey Archer Drum brake, essentially.
    Space age shyte, biitches!
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  15. #90
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    Have you guys seen this? Looks promising!

    Pinkbike posted it and took it off right away. A friend was able to get it just in time.

    Prototype Shimano Wide Range Cassette - Crankworx Whistler 2013 - Pinkbike

  16. #91
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    Here's hoping it comes true!

  17. #92
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    Gone again. Info?

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by in the trees View Post
    Gone again. Info?
    Ask and ye shall receive
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-image.jpg  

    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-image.jpg  

    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-image.jpg  


  19. #94
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    Thank you! Fingers-crossed that this becomes available soon.

  20. #95
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    You're welcome. I'd say its a done deal. The market is too competitive for them to ignore 1x. I just wonder why the other site took down the article. I'm lookin forward to it, hopefully not too much longer!

  21. #96
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    Awesome

    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 4
    I am immune to your disdain.

  22. #97
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    Isn't that just a General Lee aftermarket cluster copy, with some machining?
    Bold move, Shimano!
    (But I hope it works)

    Leonardi Factory ?General Lee? 25T ? 40T Ten Speed Mountain Bike Cassette Adapter
    "We LOVE cows! They make trails for us.....

    And then we eat them."

  23. #98
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's X-Horizon RD:


  24. #99
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    I dont see Shimano producing a cassette like that with such a huge jump in ratios.

  25. #100
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    I dont see Shimano producing a cassette like that with such a huge jump in ratios.
    Ever see the mega range cassette?

    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 4
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