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  1. #301
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    Quite a few people complaining about new and different standards here - and they definately have a point.

    BUT, look at the cause, sram brings out a $1500 groupo 11speed, and all the talk is about when is shimano bringing out 11 speed. It's our insatiable appetite for something new and not compatible.

    I can't help but wonder if it might serve the mtb community better if shimano brought out a 10s electronic system last year so that xtr and xt could be mixed and matched by the consumer.

    To me electronic means NO MORE REPLACING BLOODY CABLES! The absolute bane of gears is when things start going awry and trying to figure out what is the cause - cable Niners and outers, adjustment of tension, cassette wear, chain wear - fully 50% of variables has been removed.

    Anyway proof will be in the riding - rest assured the first 2014 xtr you spot will have you all slobbering all over your mates bike just like you did with XX1- long term success will depend on how the feedback goes over the first few months of ownership

  2. #302
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    Thanks for the replies...

    Still puts in the same boat with my wheels (Cobalt 3) being not being compatible. I guess I'll just wait till the 1x stuff trickles down to X9 or SLX/XT and get new wheels. Till then...I'll stick with my 42T add on.

  3. #303
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    King better get their shit together with the freehub body I need for this. The excuse about the sram 11spd was that they'd have to re-design the whole hub. If they don't have to do that for the shimano system people aren't going to want to wait forever.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
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    To me electronic means NO MORE REPLACING BLOODY CABLES! The absolute bane of gears is when things start going awry and trying to figure out what is the cause - cable Niners and outers, adjustment of tension, cassette wear, chain wear - fully 50% of variables has been removed.
    Meh. I rotate through two chains during a season. I replace the liners/cables every winter cause I'm bored. Of all the times my shifting has gone to hell, it's never been the cable. Most often it's a bent hanger, followed by a mangled derailleur. That doesn't leave me wanting an electronic derailleur.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    To me electronic means NO MORE REPLACING BLOODY CABLES! The absolute bane of gears is when things start going awry and trying to figure out what is the cause - cable Niners and outers, adjustment of tension, cassette wear, chain wear - fully 50% of variables has been removed.
    It is never the cables. Just run the full length housing. And buy a derailleur adjustment gauge - slightly bent hanger is more often than you think.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    It is never the cables. Just run the full length housing. And buy a derailleur adjustment gauge - slightly bent hanger is more often than you think.
    Fair call - it's not the steel cables that wear, it's the outers than wear ( inspite of the full outers I run). I find that xx1 is really fine tuned so dirt, slightly worn outers, a chain stretched 1/32 over 10" - all giveaway to slower and less exact changing- but I do change gears a lot .

  7. #307
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    I'm a Shimano fan. I love the current 2x10 XTR I have on my Liteville. Shimano brakes are significantly better than Sram/Avid. I think their wheels are better. I like the looks of the new cranks. I run 7970 and 9070 Di2 on my road bikes and have a Pinion gearbox equipped Nicolai. I can't see me running Di2 on an mtb as destroying rear derailleurs was the reason I went to the Pinion gearbox. I don't like the feel of clutched derailleurs from Shimano or Sram, but of the two the Shimano derailleurs and shifters feel nicer to use and better quality. The biggest let down for me is the lack of development of a gearbox system to compete with the Pinion set up. I think sealed gearbox units, not IGH, are the way forward for mtb gears.

  8. #308
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    Your won't need a new hub. My Reynolds wheels are mountain 11spd. You can just replace the cassette body.

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  9. #309
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    I'm under the impression you need to redish an existing wheel once you put the 11spd hub body on. If you dont know how or have a truing stand to do it you are gonna pay a shop $20 plus the cost of the hub body = same cost as xx1 hub driver

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  10. #310
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    Did some research, figured it out.

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  11. #311
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    After you've redished it then you can swap back and forth via the spacer was my understanding

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  12. #312
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    Keep in mind I'm saying if you have a 10spd wheel already with the option to swap out the hub body when you make the swap you need to reddish. If you buy a new 11spd wheel you just use the spacer to go 10

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  13. #313
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    While I'm sure it's possible to offer a new freehub and endcaps to shift the hub over, re-dish the wheel, then move the brake caliper over, there's no way I'm doing that. I'm already not happy with the DS vs NDS spoke tension. Given all the moaning about the XX1 freehub, I can't see many people adopting this.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    To me electronic means NO MORE REPLACING BLOODY CABLES! The absolute bane of gears is when things start going awry and trying to figure out what is the cause - cable Niners and outers, adjustment of tension, cassette wear, chain wear
    I'm so with you on this one. I used to have tons of time to play with my bikes in my shop but I just don't anymore (work and family). With my road Di2 I NEVER have to touch my drivetrain so it saves time and shifts sooo well. Add air to the tires and lbs the chain is all! Can't wait to throw 2X11 XTR Di2 on my Tallboy!
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  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    This all makes me kinda wonder if shimano didnt just give up. On one hand, they know they have so much market share and plenty of people are getting by just fine with shimano 10speed 1x systems so perhaps they are just fine with it as is and are hanging their hats on their name as well as better brake products. Xx1 addressed several issues(chain retention on 1x system, low and high end range on 1x systems, weight). SRAM could justify bringing it out at top level pricing. Shimano wznts us to pay xtr level prices for what? A 40t cog? What other features is this going to have?

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    Don't forget that Shimano introduced us to the clutch derailleur with Shadow plus which does more to retain the chain than a narrow wide chainring. Shimano is definitely not sitting on their hands!
    They also know how to tuck a rear derailleur much tighter into the bike with the Shadow design. Standard SRAM rear derailleurs hang out too far and are too fragile. That bloody XX1 derailleur sticks out 2-3 inches!
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  16. #316
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    For me, the biggest improvement in gearing in the last 10 years has been clutched dérailleurs, and before that indexing .

    I think that as mentioned elsewhere, the solution to more gearing and simplicity is going to be microprocessor controlled shifting- ie an up and down button, where the computer goes to the next gear using all 20 or maybe 15 or 16 gears for chain line reasons. So up one gear might be 2 back on the rear and front up one, and motorised shifting surely provides the answer to the front shifting under power

  17. #317
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    But clutch rd isnt new. They already have it. So if anyone wants it they can have it now, they dont have to spend for this. What reason should anyone shell out cash for this? Xx1 has option for a 28 tooth front. This only goes down to 30. Xx1 has a 10T and a 42. This keeps 11 and gives a 40. The only thing it offers is electronic shifting. People dont see that as critical. Hell i know people that still rock thumb shifters, cheap and easy

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  18. #318
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    One potential advantage of Shimano's 1x11 is the chainring. If you zoom in to the pictures it doesn't appear to be a narrow wide or hooked like FSA's. The narrow wide chainrings are great, but their are plenty of reports of them being sub par in thick mud (Nino Schurter ran a chainguide on his XX1 because of this). I can't image Shimano requiring a chainguide to keep the chain on, that would be a HUGE step back from XX1. I'd guess they came out with an even better solution to keep the chain on.

    I would not be surprised if they brought over some of the tech from the new dura ace FD to have effortless front shifting.

    The shifters should also save a bit of weight, which I would expect will keep the weight fairly competitive with XX1.

    Anyways, this is all speculation. Give it another month or two and we should see some official information. On paper the difference between Dura Ace 7900 and 9000 is 1 cog and a new freehub standard, in reality 9000 was VASTLY better than 7900. With XX1/X01 taking such huge amounts of market share away from Shimano, I can't imagine that they'll release anything short of amazing.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Don't forget that Shimano introduced us to the clutch derailleur with Shadow plus which does more to retain the chain than a narrow wide chainring. Shimano is definitely not sitting on their hands!
    On my Stumpy Comp hard tail:
    Shadow+ clutch on with normal front chainring = chain falling off.
    Shadow+ with clutch off and NW chainring = chain not falling off.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    On my Stumpy Comp hard tail:
    Shadow+ clutch on with normal front chainring = chain falling off.
    Shadow+ with clutch off and NW chainring = chain not falling off.
    NW chainring without a clutch rear derailleur is way worse for chain dropping and slapping around. I stand by my statement.
    Sounds like you had a wonky setup because there are plenty of people running non NW rings with clutch RDs with excellent results. Correct chain length plus proper clutch adjustment equals very good chain retention. It isn't perfect but neither is a NW because we all dump chains once in a while when hammering down rough North Shore trails.

    It looks like Shimano isn't even using NW on their new XTR 1X.
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  21. #321
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    bog: you are incorrect.

    NW chainrings work just fine with clutch-less deraileurs. There is a potential risk of chain drops when using small cassette cogs, but even that can be managed with short cage RD.

    On the other hand, there is nothing that stops the chain from dropping in clutch + normal chainring w/o guide. It will drop just like in clutch less drivetrain.

    I had this tested on about 10 N/W prototypes, several bikes and RDs.

  22. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by uzurpator View Post
    bog: you are incorrect.

    NW chainrings work just fine with clutch-less deraileurs. There is a potential risk of chain drops when using small cassette cogs, but even that can be managed with short cage RD.

    On the other hand, there is nothing that stops the chain from dropping in clutch + normal chainring w/o guide. It will drop just like in clutch less drivetrain.

    I had this tested on about 10 N/W prototypes, several bikes and RDs.
    You are entailed to say what you want to try to market your chainrings but I'll stick by my experiences along with Shimano and Sram's testing (both of which show that a clutch RD is the most important for a 1X11 system). Check out the new XTR along with lots of people riding in muddy conditions with regular chainrings and clutch derailleurs (mud wreaks havoc on N/W rings).

    With proper chain length, chain tension and a well adjusted clutch (ie: not Sram's) it is very unlikely that you'll lose a chain because the chain won't jump off of the bottom of chainring like it will if the chain is allowed to slap around.

    As for using a short cage derailleur on a 1X11 system?? good luck with that!

    So yes, in most cases you are better off with both a well adjusted clutch RD AND a narrow wide on a 1X11 system but if you have to choose then you're better off with a clutch RD only.
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  23. #323
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    You are entailed to say what you want to try to market your chainrings but I'll stick by my experiences along with Shimano and Sram's testing (both of which show that a clutch RD is the most important for a 1X11 system). Check out the new XTR along with lots of people riding in muddy conditions with regular chainrings and clutch derailleurs (mud wreaks havoc on N/W rings).

    With proper chain length, chain tension and a well adjusted clutch (ie: not Sram's) it is very unlikely that you'll lose a chain because the chain won't jump off of the bottom of chainring like it will if the chain is allowed to slap around.

    As for using a short cage derailleur on a 1X11 system?? good luck with that!

    So yes, in most cases you are better off with both a well adjusted clutch RD AND a narrow wide on a 1X11 system but if you have to choose then you're better off with a clutch RD only.
    All my buddies with clutch only had to run some kind of chain retention system. We've all gone with NW & eliminated the need for a chain device. With both on, the chain rarely comes off. But I've never tried a NW only, by itself.


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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    You are entailed to say what you want to try to market your chainrings but I'll stick by my experiences along with Shimano and Sram's testing (both of which show that a clutch RD is the most important for a 1X11 system). Check out the new XTR along with lots of people riding in muddy conditions with regular chainrings and clutch derailleurs (mud wreaks havoc on N/W rings).

    With proper chain length, chain tension and a well adjusted clutch (ie: not Sram's) it is very unlikely that you'll lose a chain because the chain won't jump off of the bottom of chainring like it will if the chain is allowed to slap around.


    As for using a short cage derailleur on a 1X11 system?? good luck with that!

    So yes, in most cases you are better off with both a well adjusted clutch RD AND a narrow wide on a 1X11 system but if you have to choose then you're better off with a clutch RD only.

    Almost a year on a wolftooth front and mid cage sram r/d with no clutch and not. 1 dropped chain. Short cage is fine with a big rear cog. The cage length is the clear big front chainrings

  25. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    King better get their shit together with the freehub body I need for this..
    King already makes an 11 speed Shimano drive shell if you are on QR. The road 11 speed drive shell and axle will work on mountain hubs. 10mm and 12mm options aren't there though, yet. 11 speed XTR this year and 11 sp XT will follow.

    Only question is what will sram do? Will feature an 11-42 cassette to fit a standard freehub? Anyway you slice it, be it OEM or not, XX1 and X01 are expensive. They not only have a $400+ dollar cassette but you need a special hub driver too.

  26. #326
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    Better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel J View Post
    Stolen from WW forum...
    Oh yeah!
    The cranks look ugly as hell though. The design reminds me of Shimano non-series touring cranks
    Better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33 View Post
    King already makes an 11 speed Shimano drive shell if you are on QR. The road 11 speed drive shell and axle will work on mountain hubs. 10mm and 12mm options aren't there though, yet. 11 speed XTR this year and 11 sp XT will follow.
    Did you hear this directly from King? I have a king iso disc rear hub that I'd like to convert to 11sp eventually, and was thinking it wasn't possible currently. Any word on if you need to re-dish, or are you ok to leave the wheel as is?

  29. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1Gel View Post
    Oh yeah!
    The cranks look ugly as hell though. The design reminds me of Shimano non-series touring cranks
    I have to agree...The M980/985 cranks looked like bad ass ninja throwing stars to me when I first saw them....Not so with these ugly ass $89 looking cranks. Maybe seeing them in real life will help

  30. #330
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    Oh, and here is shot of the Di2 XTR rear...


  31. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabriel J View Post
    I have to agree...The M980/985 cranks looked like bad ass ninja throwing stars to me when I first saw them....Not so with these ugly ass $89 looking cranks. Maybe seeing them in real life will help
    Make that another vote for, "man, I hope they look better in person than these leaked catalog shots."

    The current ones look all business, with some bad-arse flair.

    Aesthetically, I like the new one's X-arms for the chainrings carried over from Dura-Ace Di2, though they totally force you to only use Shimano's CRs, unless someone copies them, with or without permission.

    But the crank arms themselves look like nothing special, even if they're strong & stiff as hell, and light.

  32. #332
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    Someone told me 2015 XTR with be 1x11, 2x11, or 3x11.... # different options for everyone. O and yes it will be electric as well.

  33. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by xcracer04 View Post
    Someone told me 2015 XTR with be 1x11, 2x11, or 3x11.... # different options for everyone. O and yes it will be electric as well.
    Fantastic!

    Now, read the 7 posts above yours.
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  34. #334
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTR-33 View Post
    King already makes an 11 speed Shimano drive shell if you are on QR. The road 11 speed drive shell and axle will work on mountain hubs. 10mm and 12mm options aren't there though, yet. 11 speed XTR this year and 11 sp XT will follow.
    No QR here. Fun bolts.

    I emailed king - they said they don't want to comment until they confirm the 11 spd mountain drive shell is the same as the road one. It's kinda funny - when xx1 came out king acted like they were the last people on the planet to know about it. I know they don't get the same info feed that oem suppliers get, but come on. They don't have any industry friends that help them out ? I find that hard to believe, given how long they've been in business.

  35. #335
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    If 11-40 isn't enough.. Run a shimano 1 x11 setup with an SRAM 10-42 cassette, ??

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    whens the embargo on all this lift?

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    Sea Otter

  38. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritPOP View Post
    If 11-40 isn't enough.. Run a shimano 1 x11 setup with an SRAM 10-42 cassette, ??
    Different cog spacing.
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    It seems that so many riders out there just look at the overall bandwidth. Sure, the 10-42 cassette does have a greater bandwidth, but what if it is not enough?
    I still ride a 3x10 and yes I barely shift to the 24 or 42 ring, but I do.
    Shimano has a differnet philosophy which they marketed with the 980 and seem to continue and - imo - improve with this groupset. They just want to have the best cadence. During trails almost everything can be ridden on the 32 ring. I'd however love one more big gear just like 42/13. I dont need 42/11. But also Id like to keep the 24/36. Looking at the pictures the 36/26 crank together with the 11-40 cassette does it all. 36/30 almost simliar to 32/36 but the same high end just like 42/13. And in addition 26/40, almost similar to 24/36.
    in addition the shift between 36 and 26 will be phenomenal just like today. And you dont need to run through the entire gears in the back if you shift in the front.
    If you want to have it the narrow wide teeths it can only be done on a single ring. Surely Shimano wanted to have all components be compatible. That may be a reason why this was not copied.

    Bottom line: if you want to have only 1 ring in the front and can live with the bandwdth just go for SRAM. For all other combinations Shimano will provide better possibilities.
    SRAM was more inovative the last years, Shimano offers more perfection. For those who put a afteramrekt 42 cog and swop the 15tooth and hence allow a 13/17 jump, perfection does not seem to be relevant. For others which loove the details just like that there are different 32 chainrings for a 24 or 22 ring just like for the 38 ring it is.

  40. #340
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    What I suspect is that the di2 double or triple front shifts 100% as well as any high-end Shimano cable rear derailleur, and if that's the case, what's the advantage of having a narrower range with XX1, aside from weight savings (<250g)?
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  41. #341
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    Some of you need to get with it. Let's face it, triples exist because way back in the day you only had 5 speeds in the rear. I was in my 22/36 the other day and it was pretty useless. In that combo you aren't being propelled forward enough to make it worthwhile. In road cycling I dont mind shifting my front too much and rarely do I need to dump gears so quickly and if I do need to the consequences of not being able too are usually just a few tough pedal strokes. On the trail if I fail to dump those gears it can put my ass on the ground quick. Simplicity is king in MTB but not at the expense of function which is why xx1 is genius. A lot of people are happy on a shimano 1x9 or 10 setup but there were plenty who said "man if only I could have a little more top end" or "man if only I could have a little more low end". Shimano is basically hanging their hat on electronic shifting being the wave of the future. Its not a terrible bet. Look at how computerized cars are, its almost surprising electronic shifting hasn't been here en masse sooner

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  42. #342
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    SRAM is working full-force on electronic shifting too, fwiw.
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    SRAM is working full-force on electronic shifting too, fwiw.
    I heard they promoted the brake designers to this project. Should work out great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Different cog spacing.
    Where did you get that info from.
    Consensus is 11 speed road cassettes are compatable across the 3 manufacturers groupsets. Would have been nice if the XX01 and XTR 11 speed cassettes had been cross compatible both groupsets.

  45. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by 92gli View Post
    I heard they promoted the brake designers to this project. Should work out great.
    That made me laugh! Thanks.
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  46. #346
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    I was holding off on XX1 or XO1 till I got some info on the new Shimano stuff. I already have the Sram XX1 crank with 28 tooth ring now for about a year with Shimano XTR 11x36 cassette and 10 speed shifter, Zee derail. This is a great 1x10 set-up, the Zee derail. is only about 75 bucks and has the clutch. Now that my cassette is worn its time to upgrade to the XO1 cassette it has a hard ano finish and looks great, the black XO1 derail and xx1 shifter, XX1 chain and I9 freehub driver. This is the only thing I would ever buy from SRAM 1X11. Total price not counting the Crank, 790.00 not bad !!

  47. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by BritPOP View Post
    Where did you get that info from.
    Consensus is 11 speed road cassettes are compatable across the 3 manufacturers groupsets. Would have been nice if the XX01 and XTR 11 speed cassettes had been cross compatible both groupsets.
    XX1 is closer to 10 speed spacing because they use a dished big cog, while road 11 speed cassettes do not.

    EDIT: I don't know for certain that the new XTR won't use the same dished spacing as XX1, and Shimano does have a patent on a radically dished 14 speed cassette setup, but if they were going the dished route, it'd be smart to stick with the 10 speed freehub body design, but it appears that they aren't.

    Last edited by juan_speeder; 02-21-2014 at 07:59 AM.
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  48. #348
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    Another reason I went with the Shimano Zee rear derail. it's a short cage and is nice and compact. Shimano mid and long cage's are too long. The picts of Shimano the new stuf coming out looks hideous in my opion. I think the new Sram freehub XD driver is a better design, lighter-only cost me 90.00 bucks, Hadley makes a very nice one out of Ti. Chris King still working on it. People are talking about how expensive XX1 is, not really !! About the same price as XTR, I paid 220.00 for my XTR 10 speed cassette and 320.00 for the new SRAM XO1 cassette which by the take's 8 hours to machine out of chunk of Chromoly tool steel has great strength to weight ratio. The 42 tooth is Alloy. The derail. is design work of art, I just hope it holds up. My x9 type 2 derail that I had on another bike was junk that's when I decided to always buy Shimano till now.

  49. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by dgw7000 View Post
    Another reason I went with the Shimano Zee rear derail. it's a short cage and is nice and compact. Shimano mid and long cage's are too long. The picts of Shimano the new stuf coming out looks hideous in my opion. I think the new Sram freehub XD driver is a better design, lighter-only cost me 90.00 bucks, Hadley makes a very nice one out of Ti. Chris King still working on it. People are talking about how expensive XX1 is, not really !! About the same price as XTR, I paid 220.00 for my XTR 10 speed cassette and 320.00 for the new SRAM XO1 cassette which by the take's 8 hours to machine out of chunk of Chromoly tool steel has great strength to weight ratio. The 42 tooth is Alloy. The derail. is design work of art, I just hope it holds up. My x9 type 2 derail that I had on another bike was junk that's when I decided to always buy Shimano till now.
    Your mistake was buying an XTR cassette vs XT. I've been there, done that. Wears very quickly and not a huge amount lighter than XT. They're also not as durable, I've ripped the rivets out of an XTR cassette which caused a broken cog. You can find 11-36 XT cassettes in the $60-70 range. Slightly heavier but last much longer. I race XC where weight is a concern and will no longer buy XTR cassettes.

    I'm not a fan of $200 or $300+ cassettes... especially cassettes that are going to be used with a single ring in the front. They're wear parts, and when running 1x if you're running the same ring size you're almost guaranteed to favor a limited amount of cogs. This means you'll wear through a few cogs far before others are worn out. When you buy an XO1 or XX1 cassette you won't be able to replace the individual cogs, you have to throw out the entire cassette. I'd much rather stick with solid, sub $100 cassettes that won't make me cry when I have to replace them.

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    That's a good point but weight/durability there's always a trade-off, anybody looking for a great 1x10 set-up check it out.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-p1060346.jpg  


  51. #351
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    Sorry. Edit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    Your mistake was buying an XTR cassette vs XT. I've been there, done that. Wears very quickly and not a huge amount lighter than XT. They're also not as durable, I've ripped the rivets out of an XTR cassette which caused a broken cog. You can find 11-36 XT cassettes in the $60-70 range. Slightly heavier but last much longer. I race XC where weight is a concern and will no longer buy XTR cassettes.

    I'm not a fan of $200 or $300+ cassettes... especially cassettes that are going to be used with a single ring in the front. They're wear parts, and when running 1x if you're running the same ring size you're almost guaranteed to favor a limited amount of cogs. This means you'll wear through a few cogs far before others are worn out. When you buy an XO1 or XX1 cassette you won't be able to replace the individual cogs, you have to throw out the entire cassette. I'd much rather stick with solid, sub $100 cassettes that won't make me cry when I have to replace them.
    To each his own. I've been using many cassettes and found out the XTR to be more durable than XT ones. That said, I totally agree with you about the prohibitive price of the high end cassettes which are consumables, in the end.

  53. #353
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post

    I'm not a fan of $200 or $300+ cassettes... especially cassettes that are going to be used with a single ring in the front. They're wear parts, and when running 1x if you're running the same ring size you're almost guaranteed to favor a limited amount of cogs. This means you'll wear through a few cogs far before others are worn out. When you buy an XO1 or XX1 cassette you won't be able to replace the individual cogs, you have to throw out the entire cassette. I'd much rather stick with solid, sub $100 cassettes that won't make me cry when I have to replace them.
    I'm curious about the 1x impact. Seems like running 1x would force you to use more of the cassette, assuming varied terrain. You'd have no other option, where 2x/3x would let you compensate with the front rings and stick in a more narrow range on the cassette.

    Either way, I agree on the pain of expensive wear parts. I hope there are x9 or x7 options out when I'm due to replace...

  54. #354
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    Exactly. 1x spreads the action around the whole cassette vs 2x or 3x

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  55. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    42-10 gives you 10% more range than 42-11. That's not insignificant.
    No, it does not. That is just repeating SRAM corporate commercials. You must take into consideration the fact that chain rings come in discrete (even) numbers of teeth, they are not continuous! If you do the little math involved you realize that the 10 cog gives just a tiny extra overdrive (for an absurd $$$ cost). Or compare the following ratios:

    1142 x 30 => 2.73 to .71
    1042 x 28 => 2.80 to .67

    that show how a 1142 30 chain ring basically overlaps almost completely with an 1042 with 28. Even 1140 is very close to 1042.

  56. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    No, it does not. That is just repeating SRAM corporate commercials. You must take into consideration the fact that chain rings come in discrete (even) numbers of teeth, they are not continuous! If you do the little math involved you realize that the 10 cog gives just a tiny extra overdrive (for an absurd $$$ cost). Or compare the following ratios:

    1142 x 30 => 2.73 to .71
    1042 x 28 => 2.80 to .67

    that show how a 1142 30 chain ring basically overlaps almost completely with an 1042 with 28. Even 1140 is very close to 1042.
    davide, that is intellectually dishonest. You have used ( accidental or deliberately )a 28 in one then a 30 in the other - the effect is to get the reader to concentrate on one end of the spectrum when you have changed both ends of the gearing spectrum.

    The difference is indeed 10%, and is not relying on the front chainring - how it can be anything else apart from a 10% difference requires some sort of alternate universe .

    I will give you the benefit of the doubt however that you simply left the 30 and 28 in the calculator and forgot.


    Edit if you want the change in speed from bikecalc , I put in 30t front and a 10 and 11 rear for a 29er with a 2.3 rear wheel at 90rpm on 170mm cranks

    You get 19.22 mph for the 11 tooth small and 21.12 for the 10 tooth small

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    Not to mention shimano doesn't have a 30t option. Yes you can now get there with an aftermarket product but when xx1 came out the best you could get with shimano was 32 with an 11/36. Obviously this new group will now give that capability but they are late to the party

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  58. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    Exactly. 1x spreads the action around the whole cassette vs 2x or 3x
    I ride using middle ring over the entire cassette, and stay in the middle ring some ~90% of the time or more. Works just fine. Just dropping to granny for an extended steep climb (and use half the cassette with it). Replace big ring with bash.

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    Exactly so you basically have a 1x system and spread the wear out over all the cogs

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  60. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    davide, that is intellectually dishonest. You have used ( accidental or deliberately )a 28 in one then a 30 in the other - the effect is to get the reader to concentrate on one end of the spectrum when you have changed both ends of the gearing spectrum.
    No, you are missing the point. I do that on purpose to show that if you use a 30 (32) with a 1142 vs a 28 (30) with a 1042 you basically obtain an identical range with the 1042 just barely increasing the range of 1142.

    But to put it another way: if all was available on the market was a cassette with a minimum 12 cog and somebody showed up and told you: look I can give you an 11 cog (for $1000 and change, but that is another story) you would not consider that a great improvement at all. One tooth is a miniscule range change. You need at least 2 tooth difference from 11 to give you a real overdrive, and that's while Leonardi is coming up with a 9 tooth. A 9 tooth cog might have other problems, but for sure 10 is an irrelevant gain in respect to 11.

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    A 10% change is not minuscule.

    Would you notice the difference between a 33t front and a 30t?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    No, you are missing the point. I do that on purpose to show that if you use a 30 (32) with a 1142 vs a 28 (30) with a 1042 you basically obtain an identical range with the 1042 just barely increasing the range of 1142.

    But to put it another way: if all was available on the market was a cassette with a minimum 12 cog and somebody showed up and told you: look I can give you an 11 cog (for $1000 and change, but that is another story) you would not consider that a great improvement at all. One tooth is a miniscule range change. You need at least 2 tooth difference from 11 to give you a real overdrive, and that's while Leonardi is coming up with a 9 tooth. A 9 tooth cog might have other problems, but for sure 10 is an irrelevant gain in respect to 11.
    Spoken just like someone that doesn't know what they are talking about, Or having tried it.

    I have both setups, 11-42 & 10-42 & would rather ride the 10-42 any day of the week.

    Front ring size is front ring size & doesn't chance the rear cassette.

    You can change where the range starts & finishes with the front ring, but front ring will not change that range.
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  63. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    No, you are missing the point. I do that on purpose to show that if you use a 30 (32) with a 1142 vs a 28 (30) with a 1042 you basically obtain an identical range with the 1042 just barely increasing the range of 1142.

    But to put it another way: if all was available on the market was a cassette with a minimum 12 cog and somebody showed up and told you: look I can give you an 11 cog (for $1000 and change, but that is another story) you would not consider that a great improvement at all. One tooth is a miniscule range change. You need at least 2 tooth difference from 11 to give you a real overdrive, and that's while Leonardi is coming up with a 9 tooth. A 9 tooth cog might have other problems, but for sure 10 is an irrelevant gain in respect to 11.
    When you say "basically identical" , do you mean it the same way that people say "literally a million"?

    Not identical at all - it's damn close to a full gear, and it changes like one that is bought rather than shoe horned in. If shimano brought out a n xtr cassette that was 11 42 that would be close and certainly worth a thought, but they don't seem to think that's doable.

    I know it's restating the obvious, but those people that spend $1000 for xx1 are buying it instead of $1200 of XTR.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    When you say "basically identical" , do you mean it the same way that people say "literally a million"?

    Not identical at all - it's damn close to a full gear, and it changes like one that is bought rather than shoe horned in. If shimano brought out a n xtr cassette that was 11 42 that would be close and certainly worth a thought, but they don't seem to think that's doable.

    I know it's restating the obvious, but those people that spend $1000 for xx1 are buying it instead of $1200 of XTR.
    He means it in a way that if he gave you $1100 & you only gave him $1000 back he would be fine with that because it is almost the same.
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  65. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    He means it in a way that if he gave you $1100 & you only gave him $1000 back he would be fine with that because it is almost the same.
    Not too bad. Better than getting nothing back - just MTFU.

    Personally, I am either fine with 11-36 in the back, or really need a grinding gear. I tried to simulate (by not shifting into lowest and highest gears, as I calculated) what a 1x11 with 10-42 would be, and it does not really cover my use case #2. That, and Zee derailleur and Saint shifter are awesome for use case #1, so not yet compelled...

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    No, you are missing the point. I do that on purpose to show that if you use a 30 (32) with a 1142 vs a 28 (30) with a 1042 you basically obtain an identical range with the 1042 just barely increasing the range of 1142.

    But to put it another way: if all was available on the market was a cassette with a minimum 12 cog and somebody showed up and told you: look I can give you an 11 cog (for $1000 and change, but that is another story) you would not consider that a great improvement at all. One tooth is a miniscule range change. You need at least 2 tooth difference from 11 to give you a real overdrive, and that's while Leonardi is coming up with a 9 tooth. A 9 tooth cog might have other problems, but for sure 10 is an irrelevant gain in respect to 11.
    Wow you are clueless. First of all let's talk about what xx1 really is. Presently shimano has no 1x crank option, a range of 11-36, and only 10 speeds. So xx1 isnt charging $1000 just to get a 1tooth difference, they are giving you a 1x crank option without the need for a chainguide, a 10tooth cog and a 42cog along with an 11th gear so you still retain decent spacing between gears. In the end its lighter weight and a simpler drive train. U can't get any of that with a stock shimano system. You have to cobble it all together. People complain about a xx1 cassette bring $400 but right now to get a similar setup with shimano you have to buy an aftermarket chainring and rear cog along with a cassette and modify the cassette and leave a big gap in the middle of it. Hardly ideal.

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  67. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    Spoken just like someone that doesn't know what they are talking about, Or having tried it.

    .
    What a charming person you are! unfortunately if you think that a 10 cog gives you a significant range increase in respect to an 11 cog you are also quite delusional. To all practical purposes 11 plus or minus 1 cog or 40 plus or minus 2-3 makes very little difference.

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    What a charming person you are! unfortunately if you think that a 10 cog gives you a significant range increase in respect to an 11 cog you are also quite delusional. To all practical purposes 11 plus or minus 1 cog or 40 plus or minus 2-3 makes very little difference.
    It does. At the bottom end, 1 tooth is nearly negligible. at the top end, it makes a big difference. Go play with a gear calculator and see who is delusional.

    Not to mention, I agree with you on the 3-4 low cogs domt matter. Harden up. Until you have been climbing 5 hours at 13000 feet, and then it matters a whole lot.
    F×××ing math, how does it work?

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    Yeah seriously. One quick trip to the Sheldon brown gear calculator clearly shows the big difference between 10-11 cog

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  70. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    It does. At the bottom end, 1 tooth is nearly negligible. at the top end, it makes a big difference. Go play with a gear calculator and see who is delusional.
    Probably you have a little problem with math if you need to go to a gear calculator to compare gear ratios ... but I do think that you are indeed a bit delusional about the precious 10 cog (and charming, I forgot).

    Let's make this VERY simple: 1042 vs 1142. The low gear is the same, isn't it? 42 on a 1142 cassette is the same of 42 on a 1042 cassette (or maybe not?). So, no advantage there. Still following me? Now go to the high gear, and compare the following ratios with a 32 chain ring.

    10 => 3.20
    11 => 2.91
    12 => 2.67
    13 => 2.46

    Now: look at the high gear cogs used on a current Shimano/Sram 1136 cassette: 11-13-15. For a SRAM 1042 they go 10-12-14. Notice anything? yes! they go in increments of 2 teeth!!!!!! Why? because one tooth gives you an irrelevant increment, equivalent to at most half a gear. Two teeth is the minimum to feel a difference.

    Now to make that half gear "gain" even less so: if you use a 1142 with a chain ring with 2 more teeth than you would use with a 1042 you distribute that half a gear on both ends, and because with low gears you need even larger differences in # of teeth you end up with a set up that to all practical purposes is identical. Even 1140 makes little difference.

    Really: if you want one extra gear you need at least a Leonardi Racing 9x42 Cassette 10 speed (although a 944 would be more in the ballpark). But if you really want that much range go double, and then, with either 1142 or 1140, you have more than you can ever achieve with a single.

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    U are delusional for implying a stock 11-42 even exists

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  72. #372
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    Arguing what range is enough is silly. For every argument that 10-42 is the minimum needed and that 10% or what not is what makes the difference you can make an exact same one that you really need a double in front and an even wider range.

  73. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    Probably you have a little problem with math if you need to go to a gear calculator to compare gear ratios ... but I do think that you are indeed a bit delusional about the precious 10 cog (and charming, I forgot).

    Let's make this VERY simple: 1042 vs 1142. The low gear is the same, isn't it? 42 on a 1142 cassette is the same of 42 on a 1042 cassette (or maybe not?). So, no advantage there. Still following me? Now go to the high gear, and compare the following ratios with a 32 chain ring.

    10 => 3.20
    11 => 2.91
    12 => 2.67
    13 => 2.46

    Now: look at the high gear cogs used on a current Shimano/Sram 1136 cassette: 11-13-15. For a SRAM 1042 they go 10-12-14. Notice anything? yes! they go in increments of 2 teeth!!!!!! Why? because one tooth gives you an irrelevant increment, equivalent to at most half a gear. Two teeth is the minimum to feel a difference.

    Now to make that half gear "gain" even less so: if you use a 1142 with a chain ring with 2 more teeth than you would use with a 1042 you distribute that half a gear on both ends, and because with low gears you need even larger differences in # of teeth you end up with a set up that to all practical purposes is identical. Even 1140 makes little difference.

    Really: if you want one extra gear you need at least a Leonardi Racing 9x42 Cassette 10 speed (although a 944 would be more in the ballpark). But if you really want that much range go double, and then, with either 1142 or 1140, you have more than you can ever achieve with a single.
    What rear deraiileur have you run on a 11-42 double or triple ? because You will find that doesn't work either.

    The chain growth is to much for what is out there at the moment.
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  74. #374
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    Davide,

    Did you know that 25 mph and 27.5 mph are the same speed, as there's a mere 10% difference.
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  75. #375
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Arguing what range is enough is silly. For every argument that 10-42 is the minimum needed and that 10% or what not is what makes the difference you can make an exact same one that you really need a double in front and an even wider range.
    It is silly when you are arguing what other people need, yes. It's what's suitable for the individual that counts. Some people like to pedal downhill on the road or can hold 40kmh on the flat , and they are going to need doubles or triples for top end, or sacrifice granny grinding ability.

    It's easy to see, some would do better on a triple, some a double, and some 1*. If you want the most range on 1*, your current off the shelf system choice is limited to sram 11

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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    If you fall into the camp with the old school mindset of 3x 10 gears = 30 speeds WoW, then good for you.

    But if you can sit down and read a gear calculator and equate what a 10-42t cassette, combined with a front ring size to match your riding ability and location you'd then see how a SRAM XX1 system could change your approach to riding with gears.....

    It's not just about 1x, it's not at all about 11gears......it's about setting you free of the horrid devolpment that the 3x/2x has become in the last 25yrs and the way it has impeded you riding your bike in the dirt.

    I run WTC 26t and X01.....I still have the old equivalent of granny gear (22x34) at the other end I have a gear the same as (32x12) that I can pedal it to 32kmh on the bitumen.

    Take the same approach dirt bikes do and gear for your riding.....you wouldn't ride a Baja geared bike in the Smokey Mtns right?

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    What rear deraiileur have you run on a 11-42 double or triple ? because You will find that doesn't work either.

    The chain growth is to much for what is out there at the moment.
    This brings up a good point. If shimanos new xtr that only has a 40t cog will have an rd that can handle 3x you could have a ridiculous amount of range but most mtb riders dont want to have to shift front and rear. The short steep climbs come quickly and only having to shift one side is desirable

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  78. #378
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    ......it's about setting you free of the horrid devolpment that the 3x/2x has become in the last 25yrs and the way it has impeded you riding your bike in the dirt.?
    Drama much? Front derailleur works just fine. It does not impede anything.

    Given a choice of switching to SRAM shifters and derailleur or going through the fun impeding horror of switching front Shimano shifter a few times a ride (flawless shift every time), I do prefer the 2x10, for fraction of the price, and yet wider range.

  79. #379
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    The short steep climbs come quickly and only having to shift one side is desirable
    More often then not I would drop front 36 to 23. Faster.

  80. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    Drama much? Front derailleur works just fine. It does not impede anything.

    Given a choice of switching to SRAM shifters and derailleur or going through the fun impeding horror of switching front Shimano shifter a few times a ride (flawless shift every time), I do prefer the 2x10, for fraction of the price, and yet wider range.
    I'm willing to bet you have a couple rides maybe or have not even done 1x let alone XX1/X01......

    re-read my dirtbike comment at the bottom of my spiel over and over till you get it...

    30spds awesome, dramaah...

  81. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    I'm willing to bet you have a couple rides maybe or have not even done 1x let alone XX1/X01......

    re-read my dirtbike comment at the bottom of my spiel over and over till you get it...

    30spds awesome, dramaah...
    I am willing to bet that you do not know what you are talking about. In fact, I am sure of that, otherwise you would not be making stupid statements like the one I have quoted. Do you even have mountains where you live? 1x10 is my main ride - for racing in particular.

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    Probably you have a little problem with math if you need to go to a gear calculator to compare gear ratios ... but I do think that you are indeed a bit delusional about the precious 10 cog (and charming, I forgot).

    Let's make this VERY simple: 1042 vs 1142. The low gear is the same, isn't it? 42 on a 1142 cassette is the same of 42 on a 1042 cassette (or maybe not?). So, no advantage there. Still following me? Now go to the high gear, and compare the following ratios with a 32 chain ring.

    10 => 3.20
    11 => 2.91
    12 => 2.67
    13 => 2.46

    Now: look at the high gear cogs used on a current Shimano/Sram 1136 cassette: 11-13-15. For a SRAM 1042 they go 10-12-14. Notice anything? yes! they go in increments of 2 teeth!!!!!! Why? because one tooth gives you an irrelevant increment, equivalent to at most half a gear. Two teeth is the minimum to feel a difference.

    Now to make that half gear "gain" even less so: if you use a 1142 with a chain ring with 2 more teeth than you would use with a 1042 you distribute that half a gear on both ends, and because with low gears you need even larger differences in # of teeth you end up with a set up that to all practical purposes is identical. Even 1140 makes little difference.

    Really: if you want one extra gear you need at least a Leonardi Racing 9x42 Cassette 10 speed (although a 944 would be more in the ballpark). But if you really want that much range go double, and then, with either 1142 or 1140, you have more than you can ever achieve with a single.
    BS. Check out the difference in gain ratios on a 11 to 10 and a 32 to 34, for example. 1 gear on the high end is a bigger gain ratio jump than 2 on the low end. Do you even math?

    EDIT: Not saying 1 gear isnt a small increment, but it is a significant range increase and would make me more comfortable running a 32 ring instead of a 34.

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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Go ride a singlespeed and tell me a 5% change doesn't make a difference. A 1 tooth difference from a 19 to a 20 can very well mean the difference of cleaning a hill or finishing a ride comfortably. It's not about only going 10% faster or slower, it's about having the legs and lungs to push them.

  84. #384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post

    10 => 3.20
    11 => 2.91
    12 => 2.67
    13 => 2.46

    Now: look at the high gear cogs used on a current Shimano/Sram 1136 cassette: 11-13-15. For a SRAM 1042 they go 10-12-14. Notice anything? yes! they go in increments of 2 teeth!!!!!! Why? because one tooth gives you an irrelevant increment, equivalent to at most half a gear. Two teeth is the minimum to feel a difference.
    You're wrong about this. They use these cog sizes to keep the % change similar across the cassette range given the limited number of cogs available. If they made 1 tooth jumps with the smaller cogs then the % change of bigger cogs would be too much.

    I constantly wish for smaller jumps on the high end of my gear range because of the trails that I ride on and the people that I ride with. 10% change can be annoying and too much at times but it is a reasonable jump from cog to cog across a cassette to keep the % change similar.
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    I am willing to bet that you do not know what you are talking about. In fact, I am sure of that, otherwise you would not be making stupid statements like the one I have quoted. Do you even have mountains where you live? 1x10 is my main ride - for racing in particular.
    It's always hard to put your statement across to someone who can't read and interpret words so here's a couple charts for you with numbers..




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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    It's always hard to put your statement across to someone who can't read and interpret words so here's a couple charts for you with numbers..



    You do know that XX1 only goes down to 28t right? Your chart - 26t
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You do know that XX1 only goes down to 28t right? Your chart - 26t
    I run a WTC 26t GXP DM on X9 cranks....so the chart is right....

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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoTone View Post
    You do know that XX1 only goes down to 28t right? Your chart - 26t
    Wolf tooth make a 26 that fits, I have 1 on 1 of my bikes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan_speeder View Post
    Davide,

    Did you know that 25 mph and 27.5 mph are the same speed, as there's a mere 10% difference.
    No I did not, but did you notice that there is also a 10% difference between 220 and 200 pounds, and a 10% difference between 727.54$ and 661.4$, also ... listen to this: there is a 10% difference between anything you can count and something that gives a 10% higher count. so yes, wow! an 11 cog has 10% more teeth than a 10 cog! And wow, too bad that that translate into a half gear. You see: a gear difference takes at least a 18-20% difference, not 10% (like in the cassettes we all use: 10 to 12, that is 20%, or 11 to 13, that is 18.2%).

    If you want a wide spread of gears ratio go dual 1140. No question that that will give you a huge improvement in respect to any single. But stop beating a dead horse claiming that 10 teeth (and $1000) give you a significant range increase in respect to 11! It is ridiculous.

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    Bottom line. I have XTR 1x10 with 28 on my crank. I also have owned a secondary bike with XX1. I've been waiting for a Shimano solution because I really like their shifting but because their solution looks so hideous and non-practical I plan on going to XX1 in the next few weeks.

    I love Shimano and would rather ride their gear but they are just too proud to go in the direction that we all want them to. It's disappointing.

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    No I did not, but did you notice that there is also a 10% difference between 220 and 200 pounds, and a 10% difference between 727.54$ and 661.4$, also ... listen to this: there is a 10% difference between anything you can count and something that gives a 10% higher count. so yes, wow! an 11 cog has 10% more teeth than a 10 cog! And wow, too bad that that translate into a half gear. You see: a gear difference takes at least a 18-20% difference, not 10% (like in the cassettes we all use: 10 to 12, that is 20%, or 11 to 13, that is 18.2%).

    If you want a wide spread of gears ratio go dual 1140. No question that that will give you a huge improvement in respect to any single. But stop beating a dead horse claiming that 10 teeth (and $1000) give you a significant range increase in respect to 11! It is ridiculous.
    Dude you are just hard headed. I dont know why we keep arguing with you. Back in the day you needed a triple because you only had 5 gears out back. People realized that with 10 or 11 gears there is almost very little reason to add additional weight and complications to their system. Xx1 isnt perfect but there were people staying away from 1x drive trains because while they loved the idea of the simplicity and weight savings, they weren't sure if they would have enough range. SRAM simply said, here you go we are adding an 11th gear, increasing g the top and bottom ends slightly and also giving you a wider array of front chainring options. Its brilliant.

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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    No I did not, but did you notice that there is also a 10% difference between 220 and 200 pounds, and a 10% difference between 727.54$ and 661.4$, also ... listen to this: there is a 10% difference between anything you can count and something that gives a 10% higher count. so yes, wow! an 11 cog has 10% more teeth than a 10 cog! And wow, too bad that that translate into a half gear. You see: a gear difference takes at least a 18-20% difference, not 10% (like in the cassettes we all use: 10 to 12, that is 20%, or 11 to 13, that is 18.2%).

    If you want a wide spread of gears ratio go dual 1140. No question that that will give you a huge improvement in respect to any single. But stop beating a dead horse claiming that 10 teeth (and $1000) give you a significant range increase in respect to 11! It is ridiculous.
    You realize that most steps on an xtr or xx1 cassette are about 10% between cogs right? Some slightly more, some slightly less. That would make your 10 speed cassette only a 5 speed if we went off your reasoning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKamp View Post
    You realize that most steps on an xtr or xx1 cassette are about 10% between cogs right? Some slightly more, some slightly less. That would make your 10 speed cassette only a 5 speed if we went off your reasoning.
    I am not really sure why you and a couple of other seemingly mathematically challenged people keep arguing that the difference between a 10 cog and an 11 is more than at most half a gear when compared with the standard gap 11-13 or 10-12. A bit baffling.

    But just to indulge you, the spacing of 1042 (in %) is:

    20.00 16.67 14.29 12.50 16.67 14.29 16.67 14.29 12.50 16.67

    One can make the case that 10 speed would work perfectly fine with 1042, and 9 speed works great with 1136. And those of course would make the spacing wider. My just put together frankestein 9 speed 1142 is 11 14 18 21 24 28 32 36 42.

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    Have Sram offered you a job yet ? Sounds like you are just what they need.

    Quote Originally Posted by Davide View Post
    I am not really sure why you and a couple of other seemingly mathematically challenged people keep arguing that the difference between a 10 cog and an 11 is more than at most half a gear. A bit baffling.

    But just to indulge you, the spacing of 1042 (in %) is:

    20.00 16.67 14.29 12.50 16.67 14.29 16.67 14.29 12.50 16.67

    So if anything the average is around 15%, with the exception of the overdrive (12 to 10) that is what we are talking about. In addition one can make the case that 10 speed would work perfectly fine with 1042 (Leonardi is coming out with 10 speed 942) as 9 speed works great with 1136, which of course would make the spacing wider.
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    I think there should be only 20% steps in cassettes starting with a low of 42. We could have a 42, 34, 27, 22, 18, 14, 11. I am sure that 34/42 shift would be great and we would have every gear we could ever want

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    If you fall into the camp with the old school mindset of 3x 10 gears = 30 speeds WoW, then good for you.

    But if you can sit down and read a gear calculator and equate what a 10-42t cassette, combined with a front ring size to match your riding ability and location you'd then see how a SRAM XX1 system could change your approach to riding with gears.....

    It's not just about 1x, it's not at all about 11gears......it's about setting you free of the horrid devolpment that the 3x/2x has become in the last 25yrs and the way it has impeded you riding your bike in the dirt.

    I run WTC 26t and X01.....I still have the old equivalent of granny gear (22x34) at the other end I have a gear the same as (32x12) that I can pedal it to 32kmh on the bitumen.

    Take the same approach dirt bikes do and gear for your riding.....you wouldn't ride a Baja geared bike in the Smokey Mtns right?
    You and I are in total agreement about gearing man. Since going 29er last season I really miss 17.3 gear inches for climbs. 17.9 is as close as I'm going to get but it will be worth it.

    After literally not using my 34 tooth ring all last season I've removed it, added a One up 42 tooth ring to my casette, and am patiently waiting on tehan and the good folks at absolute black to kindly build me a 64bcd 26t narrow wide front ring so I can keep my M980 crank where it belongs...under my feet.

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    I've haven't read all the math drama on the previous pages but how about we speculate on a 1x11 XTR with 10-42 SRAM cassette, because personally, I would prefer a Shimano setup with the slightly larger range of the SRAM cassette.

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    Nevermind, spacing is yet to be determined.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    What rear deraiileur have you run on a 11-42 double or triple ? because You will find that doesn't work either.

    The chain growth is to much for what is out there at the moment.
    I have a triple, with an 11-40 General Lee and an XX rear Derailleur and it shifts great. No problems. Chain growth is not an issue either unless I was to run small small which I would never do anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pharmaboy View Post
    It is silly when you are arguing what other people need, yes. It's what's suitable for the individual that counts. Some people like to pedal downhill on the road or can hold 40kmh on the flat , and they are going to need doubles or triples for top end, or sacrifice granny grinding ability.

    It's easy to see, some would do better on a triple, some a double, and some 1*. If you want the most range on 1*, your current off the shelf system choice is limited to sram 11

    I agree. I still run a triple for the wide spread, and I use every bit of it. Low granny for long steep climbs and my tall gear for long fast descents. I am waiting/hoping for the Leonardi 942 to be available because I will get it and probably replace my 42 with a bash guard.
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