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  1. #201
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    Here out east I find mtb drive trains way too tall. I've got no problem pushing tall gears as for many years I rode a 2:1 SS. But on a gear FS, especially a 29er, I find anything beyond a 36x11 way over kill. Even when I ride out west I've done fine with a 32 front ring.

    Anybody who disagrees needs to post a pic of their worn out 11t rear cog.

    Shimano's 2x10 does work really well. The only thing I'd change is making the big cookie up front a 36t, not a 38t.

    With that said, if I could get the XX1 to fit my King hubs, I'd be on it.

  2. #202
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    Being an East coaster myself, I'd be fine with a 10-spd 12-40, though I can easily make do with the current 11-36.

  3. #203
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    I find 10 speed 11-36 is too fine grained for my lightweight hardtail (2 gears per shift all the time), but just right for the heavier fully.

    I'd like a 9 speed 11-34 with an additional 38 bunged on.

  4. #204
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    FWIW, I find some of the gaps (especially 18-21 and 24-28) on the 11-36 annoying, and prefer the 11-32 or 11-34. What'd be good for me is an 11-34 with a 39 or 40T cog instead of the 11T; 11 is overkill with 29" wheels. (Sorry Nigel.)

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    FWIW, I find some of the gaps (especially 18-21 and 24-28) on the 11-36 annoying, and prefer the 11-32 or 11-34. What'd be good for me is an 11-34 with a 39 or 40T cog instead of the 11T; 11 is overkill with 29" wheels. (Sorry Nigel.)
    I'm not sure you understand how gearing works, If you think 11t is over kill for a 29er.

    It all depends on what front chain ring size you run.
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  6. #206
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    I understand how gearing works fine; I just don't have any use for an 11T cog with any of the double chainwheel sets out there, as anything over ~75-80" sees only occasional use and anything over 90" is useless for me. Since I do need to ride on the road to get to off-road stuff, 1x wouldn't give enough range at the high end if I could get a small enough ring to get a liveable low gear.

    IMHO, chainwheel sets - especially from Shimano - have larger chainwheels than are useful for >26" wheels; SRAM at least offer 36x22. Yeah, I know most people don't like to or know how to spin, but that isn't a good reason to penalise those of us who do.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by satanas View Post
    I understand how gearing works fine; I just don't have any use for an 11T cog with any of the double chainwheel sets out there, as anything over ~75-80" sees only occasional use and anything over 90" is useless for me. Since I do need to ride on the road to get to off-road stuff, 1x wouldn't give enough range at the high end if I could get a small enough ring to get a liveable low gear.

    IMHO, chainwheel sets - especially from Shimano - have larger chainwheels than are useful for >26" wheels; SRAM at least offer 36x22. Yeah, I know most people don't like to or know how to spin, but that isn't a good reason to penalise those of us who do.
    Ok so it is the fact that this is a thread about 1x11 you don't get
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  8. #208
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    You really are trying to be difficult aren't you? I get that (and 1x11) fine too, but Shimano have no product yet, so in the meantime (if anything ever appears that is) it'd be nice to be able to use what there is, possibly by adding a larger cog(s), which is what some people are doing. I could live with XX1 okay apart from the cost, but this is a thread in what is allegedly the *Shimano* section of the site, so XX1 isn't really kosher.

  9. #209
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    My hope they'll introduce somthing like this

    - 11 speed cassettes in the range of, say, 10-34, 10-38 and 10-42.
    - A dedicated single ring crank set
    - Close ratio double crank sets like 22-34, 24-36 and 26-38. These are suitable for all wheel sizes and will make for compact, well shifting FD's
    - No triple crank sets anymore. Imho the 2x11 will make triples obsolete.
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  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mutantclover View Post
    I brought up exactly the same thing earlier in this thread and few people seemed to get it. I still like the idea, not of doubling it but of reducing it by 20% or so. I don't believe in 9 or 10 tooth cogs, but I would like to see an 11-tooth with a 20% smaller diameter, to add range that way. Keep the diameter of everything else about the same (just with about 20% more teeth). Better range, better ratios because your gear changes would be more uniform from one to the next. Poorer chain retention, but haven't we improved that significantly? I haven't dropped a chain from anything other than front shifting ever since getting Shadow+.
    Mechanical advantage (gear ratios) are a factor of diameter, not the number of teeth on a cog. Reducing pitch by 20% would do nothing to gear ratios (mechanical advantage), and would likely negatively affect shifting performance.

    Look up angular velocity if you'd like more information on this concept.

  11. #211
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    ^ What might make some sense would be to reduce the pitch a bit and increase the number of teeth on the cogs to compensate. The net result would be less load per tooth and more durability, but at the expense of non-compatibility. The chain would handle deflection better as there'd be more links, and so better lateral flexibility.

    Regardless, this will probably never happen, as Shimano already tried with 10mm pitch track stuff in the 1970s with "Dura-Ace 10". While it worked well, market resistance due to non-compatibility killed it after a few years, and Shimano never released their planned road group.

    Also, de lars cuevas: I agree with you, but won't hold my breath while I wait. :-(

  12. #212
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    I have an XT 10-speed drivetrain (11-36 cassette) but with an X0 crankset set up 22/33/bash. The only time I'll use the 33x11 top gear is on pavement, and I almost never ride on pavement. I have XX1 on another bike with a 30t chainring, and I also only use the 10t cog on pavement. I ride east coast technical terrain.

    So, for me, I think a 10-speed 11-42t cassette with a 30t chainring would work well. If Shimano makes a wide range cassette like this I will convert my 2x10 XT drivetrain to 1x10. The nice thing about this option is that it would just require a new cassette and chainring, not a whole new drivetrain.

  13. #213
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    Just added the Mirfe 42t onto the shimano 28-32-36 (from their 11-36) to my canfield 9t microhub, with a 28t chainring up front, for the gear spread:
    9-11-13-16-19-24-28-32-36-42

    Perfect!

    Big jump between 19 and 24, but don't seem to notice it on the trail - as I spend most of my time in 24-42 climbing and 9-16 descending. I was surprised how many times i find myself in 28/9 descending rock gardens - otherwise only use it on paved downhill runs - 28/11 for flat paved.

    28/42 is equivalent to the old school granny 22/34
    and
    28/9 is equivalent to 44/14 on old school triple crank

    both ends very usable!

    shifting smooth as butter!
    Last edited by twyeld; 01-06-2014 at 05:40 PM.

  14. #214
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    I think Shimano's answer the 1x11 will be electronic gruppos. Ever ridden DI2? It works amazingly well. Wouldn't be surprised in Shimano made a 2x10 electronic gruppo with (at least an option for) single-shifter operation. That is, you just click through the gears and the system decides when to go from big to small ring for you. Seems nuts but DI2 is really that smooth on front shifts; the system can "see" where your cranks are and time the FD push to the ramps and pins. I actually think that'd be pretty sweet (though probably very $$)

  15. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    I think Shimano's answer the 1x11 will be electronic gruppos. Ever ridden DI2? It works amazingly well. Wouldn't be surprised in Shimano made a 2x10 electronic gruppo with (at least an option for) single-shifter operation. That is, you just click through the gears and the system decides when to go from big to small ring for you. Seems nuts but DI2 is really that smooth on front shifts; the system can "see" where your cranks are and time the FD push to the ramps and pins. I actually think that'd be pretty sweet (though probably very $$)
    I would hate that. I saw something like that on a video. I like being able to just drop the front chainring if I need to. Having to shift through all the gears to get to a low bail out gear, seems limiting to me. Add the fact that I'd pay almost as much as a bike to be limited- no thanks.
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  16. #216
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    Yeah, I don't think it'd be very popular, and I for one wouldn't pay what they'd likely ask for it. But spy shots of electronic XTR are already out there. I think Shimano assumed that was the future and has been a bit blind-sided by the 1x11 stuff.

    I'm sure most Shimano users join me in wishing Shimano would do a dedicated 1x11. SRAM's new groups look great, but after years on both Shimano and SRAM (and Campy on the road) I'm very wary of the reliability and durability of SRAM.

  17. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    Yeah, I don't think it'd be very popular, and I for one wouldn't pay what they'd likely ask for it. But spy shots of electronic XTR are already out there. I think Shimano assumed that was the future and has been a bit blind-sided by the 1x11 stuff.

    I'm sure most Shimano users join me in wishing Shimano would do a dedicated 1x11. SRAM's new groups look great, but after years on both Shimano and SRAM (and Campy on the road) I'm very wary of the reliability and durability of SRAM.
    I'm not too worried about if they do. I have a General Lee cassette on the way, works with everything I have, decent price.
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  18. #218
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    The Gen. Lee or various 42T extra ring options do look promising. Unfortunately I just don't think I can get the gear range I need with less than a 10-42 spread. Living in big mountains is great, but it does require the right gears. I've messed around with gear calculators and come to the conclusion than short of XX1, I'll be staying with a double.

    Side note: on top of not liking SRAM, I have a problem with spending $400 on a cassette. Here in the PNW I ride in the mud a LOT, and drivetrains wear out pretty fast.

  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    ... I have a problem with spending $400 on a cassette. Here in the PNW I ride in the mud a LOT, and drivetrains wear out pretty fast.
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.

  20. #220
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    That gearing may work for some, But really lacks range.

    The XX1/X01 has a 420% range.

    Were as the 13-40 ha 307% range.

    Std 11-36 has a 327% range.

    Although it is clear some people don't need as much of a gear spread, for most with those gear options they would either miss out on top end or bottom end.

    The Shimano group would need to be built for the masses & there are still plenty of people that think that the XX1's 420% range isn't wide enough.



    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.
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  21. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.
    Those aren't "wide range". They have the same range as existing 10-speed cassettes. Just go with a smaller front ring and you'll have the same ratios with an 11-34 cassette.

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    Point taken, muzzanic. My intent would be to run a 1x10 with a 32T chainring for local riding, but putting everything back to 2x10 ( 24-38 or 26-38 ) when I go up north to the high country, which, sadly, doesn't happen as often as I'd like it to these days.

    That said, I don't believe I've ever worn out a 11T or 12T cog on any bike, with any gear combination, I've ever owned.

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    Point taken, muzzanic. My intent would be to run a 1x10 with a 32T chainring for local riding, but putting everything back to 2x10 ( 24-38 or 26-38 ) when I go up north to the high country, which, sadly, doesn't happen as often as I'd like it to these days.

    That said, I don't believe I've ever worn out a 11T or 12T cog on any bike, with any gear combination, I've ever owned.
    Yes but if you went with a smaller front ring you would use them more.

    I have run XX1 since it came out & I really like it, sure it costs but I have just put X01 on another bike of mine with an old X9 crank & wolf tooth front ring.

    The cassette cost me $255 US shifter $94.4 US & rear deraileur $174 US

    Sure there were on a very good sale but still not cheap I guess.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-green-rip9-002.jpg  

    Last edited by muzzanic; 01-08-2014 at 12:41 PM.
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  24. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    Point taken, muzzanic. My intent would be to run a 1x10 with a 32T chainring for local riding,
    There's your problem. Pick up a set of SRAM cranks and a Wolf Tooth 26 ring. The attached graph compares your 13-40 with a 32t vs. a Shimano XT 11-32 with 26t ring. Pretty much a spot on match.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by dje31 View Post
    That's my biggest beef: an awful lot of cheese for something made to wear out. Yet a lot of folks have been convinced that it's worth it, or not an unreasonable expense.

    I'm hoping for a 10-spd wide range with manageable gaps/steps, such as:

    12-38: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-30-34-38
    12-39: 12-14-16-18-21-24-27-31-35-39
    12-40: 12-14-16-18-21-24-28-32-36-40
    13-40: 13-15-17-19-22-25-28-32-36-40

    I especially like the last one. And yes, I could live without an 11 or 12 for my style and area...but then I primarily ride singlespeed 29er these days, with a 2:1 ratio.
    I like that 12-40 range. I very seldom use the 32x11 on my 1x10 (32 x 11-36) and when I do, I feel that it's a bit too high for me. Or maybe I'm just a really slow rider
    Better to have and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

  26. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by r1Gel View Post
    I like that 12-40 range. I very seldom use the 32x11 on my 1x10 (32 x 11-36) and when I do, I feel that it's a bit too high for me. Or maybe I'm just a really slow rider
    Just go to a 30 tooth chain ring & you can all but have that gearing now.
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  27. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by muzzanic View Post
    Just go to a 30 tooth chain ring & you can all but have that gearing now.
    Good point. I've thought about that as well; just waiting for a good deal on a 30-t RF NW (I just got a 32-t).
    cheers
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  28. #228
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    I agree that Di2 is awesome but they will not release a system that automatically shifts the front rings to run through the gears in even steps. There are way too many times that you need to dump from the big ring to the small ring on a 2X system when approaching a steep hill.

    Also, The Di2 system cannot see where you're cranks are positioned. There is no crank position sensor so that's impossible.
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  29. #229
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    Why would you want the bike to shift for you? That would cause many wrecks.

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  30. #230
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Nobody is talking about an automatic transmission here. You still push the shift button yourself but the brains of the Di2 create a sort of sequential shifting.
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  31. #231
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    The guys at Fairwheel Bikes did a custom Di2 setup like this by reprogramming the system. It isn't my cup of tea but it was cool.
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  32. #232
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    Are there any news about xtr 2015?

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    Quote Originally Posted by < T.R.E.K > View Post
    Are there any news about xtr 2015?
    I imagine they'll show / announce / tease something at Sea Otter.

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    This article mentions an electronic XTR group to be launched later this year:

    Shimano sales rise 10 percent in 2013 | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News

  35. #235
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    I really don't understand an advantage to an electronic group for mtb

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  36. #236
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    I really don't understand an advantage to an electronic group for mtb

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    Better shifting in muddy conditions. Accurate and fast shifting all the time.

  37. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Better shifting in muddy conditions. Accurate and fast shifting all the time.
    Meh. I've run everything from X.7 to XT. I press the shifter, it goes click, it shifts. I don't really see how making it electronic will make it work better in the mud. Once the derailleur is in position, it's up to the chain and cassette.

    I'm more interested in getting rid of my front derailleur, keeping the chain on the front ring, and having parts that I'm OK with getting smashed on a rock.

  38. #238
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    The advantage to electronic shifting is bike part mfgs make a lot more $ and the parts break a lot easier. Duh!
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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Meh. I've run everything from X.7 to XT. I press the shifter, it goes click, it shifts. I don't really see how making it electronic will make it work better in the mud. Once the derailleur is in position, it's up to the chain and cassette.

    I'm more interested in getting rid of my front derailleur, keeping the chain on the front ring, and having parts that I'm OK with getting smashed on a rock.
    The derailleur still has to get into position. Cog the cable up with mud, and it won't shift as well...

  40. #240
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    Electronic shifting for people with thumb injuries. I've know a couple of people who've had to go gripshift purely because of thumb pain - usually the result of a crash. I currently left shift with my palm after getting my left thumb caught up in the brakes in a crash last year.

  41. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Better shifting in muddy conditions. Accurate and fast shifting all the time.
    BS. I can shift better than a computer, if it needs a little extra oomph to go into gear in crap conditions, I can give it that.

    Muddy conditions only effect lever feel unless you neglect your setup. Mud only becomes an issue when your chain and derailluers are saturated.

  42. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post

    Muddy conditions only effect lever feel unless you neglect your setup. Mud only becomes an issue when your chain and derailluers are saturated.
    I know mud is very location specific, but the above has been my experience as well. Our mud is either organic/loom or sand. I've never had my cables fowled. I've had the derailleur itself become so fowled that the spring pressure couldn't overcome the added friction, but by that point the chain/cassette is such a mess that it's skipping gears anyway.

    Either way, I've had far greater issues with shifting at the front than the rear. Between tire clearance, suspension clearance, chain retention and anti-squat vs ring size, I only want 1x. XX1 is everything I want other than the cost and my dislike of GXP cranks.

  43. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by PlanB View Post
    This article mentions an electronic XTR group to be launched later this year:

    Shimano sales rise 10 percent in 2013 | Bicycle Retailer and Industry News
    It's been removed from the article. I saw it earlier when you posted it but its gone now. Or my vision is gone...

  44. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    I know mud is very location specific, but the above has been my experience as well. Our mud is either organic/loom or sand. I've never had my cables fowled. I've had the derailleur itself become so fowled that the spring pressure couldn't overcome the added friction, but by that point the chain/cassette is such a mess that it's skipping gears anyway.

    Either way, I've had far greater issues with shifting at the front than the rear. Between tire clearance, suspension clearance, chain retention and anti-squat vs ring size, I only want 1x. XX1 is everything I want other than the cost and my dislike of GXP cranks.
    The mud I get where I live is like clay. It will literally stop your bike from being able to roll. I've seen it tear apart drivetrains.

    XX1 doesn't need GXP cranks. Get you some Raceface cranks, problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FastBanana View Post
    BS. I can shift better than a computer, if it needs a little extra oomph to go into gear in crap conditions, I can give it that.

    Muddy conditions only effect lever feel unless you neglect your setup. Mud only becomes an issue when your chain and derailluers are saturated.
    Wonder why the top CX riders run electronic shifting then?
    They're the mud experts.

    Last season, Ben Berden ran 1x11 Di2.
    Should translate over to MTB's quite nicely.

    It's not a computer doing the shifting, you press the downshift button/lever and it downshifts, press the upshift lever and it upshifts. Instantly. No cable adjustment, no cable stretch, no cable gumming up. Auto trimming if you use a front der...
    Instantaneous solenoid activated shifting.

    I want it.

  46. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Wonder why the top CX riders run electronic shifting then?
    Because they're not paying for it?

    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    Last season, Ben Berden ran 1x11 Di2.
    Should translate over to MTB's quite nicely.
    Don't care if it's 10 speed or 11. The issue is the gear spread on the cassette. I don't need an 11 speed 12-27 cassette. I want something similar to XX1. And I'm not giving up even 1/2 a millimeter on my DS flange, so Shimano 11 speed is out for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    It's not a computer doing the shifting, you press the downshift button/lever and it downshifts, press the upshift lever and it upshifts. Instantly.
    It's not instant, it's as fast as the motor can move it. I can click off a shift in 0.3 seconds. I'm not seeing a lot of room for improvement.
    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    No cable adjustment, no cable stretch, no cable gumming up. Auto trimming if you use a front der...
    Instantaneous solenoid activated shifting.
    About the only time I've needed to adjust my derailleur has also involved straightening the hanger... or replacing the derailleur. If they can sell an SLX/Zee with electronic shifting for $100, then sure. I'll happily buy one. Otherwise? No thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Don't care if it's 10 speed or 11. The issue is the gear spread on the cassette. I don't need an 11 speed 12-27 cassette. I want something similar to XX1. And I'm not giving up even 1/2 a millimeter on my DS flange, so Shimano 11 speed is out for me.
    Everyone is different. Some might not prefer the bigger gear ratio jumps that a wide range cassette would necessitate. In my experience this is a much bigger deal on the road than in the dirt.

    I'm not pro or anti electronic XTR, I'm a fan of having a choice and evolution. Ideally shimano would offer an improved mechanical XTR groupset (similar to dura ace 9000 or ultegra 6800) AND an electronic offering. IMO the more options the better.

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    Shimano guys said maybe something is coming at Sea Otter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    Everyone is different. Some might not prefer the bigger gear ratio jumps that a wide range cassette would necessitate. In my experience this is a much bigger deal on the road than in the dirt.

    I'm not pro or anti electronic XTR, I'm a fan of having a choice and evolution. Ideally shimano would offer an improved mechanical XTR groupset (similar to dura ace 9000 or ultegra 6800) AND an electronic offering. IMO the more options the better.
    Very good points and I do agree. I'm just frustrated since I feel a good number of people have been asking for something like XX1 since 9 speed was released. Shimano's answer has always been "No, you don't know what you're talking about, you won't like it". I'm glad SRAM did it and hopefully it will cause Shimano to rethink their stance.

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    I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't a "new and improved" mechanical XTR alongside any electronic offerings. They continued to improve mechanical Dura Ace after Di2 was released and, if anything, the buy in for electronic shifting will be less on the mtb side than it is on the road.

    I would also be surprised if they don't rethink the XTR crank offerings. I could see them ditching the triple and the "race" double in favour of one new crank with double and single ring options. On the road side, the new DA and Ultegra now have a single spider for compact, standard rings.

    To me, the big question is what do they do out back? 11 speed? 10-42? Personally, I'm hoping for some kind of 10-speed wide range setup but I'm doubtful. My guess is a whole new freehub and an 11 speed cassette.

  51. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    Very good points and I do agree. I'm just frustrated since I feel a good number of people have been asking for something like XX1 since 9 speed was released. Shimano's answer has always been "No, you don't know what you're talking about, you won't like it". I'm glad SRAM did it and hopefully it will cause Shimano to rethink their stance.
    I completely agree, and have started getting impatient as well. I wish shimano would come out with a solid 1x offering to compete with XX1 sooner than later. I'm a much bigger fan of shimano products vs sram, but part of that is due to the fact that shimano generally takes their time when developing something vs allowing the consumer to do the beta testing.

    Quote Originally Posted by PlanB View Post
    I'd be pretty surprised if there isn't a "new and improved" mechanical XTR alongside any electronic offerings. They continued to improve mechanical Dura Ace after Di2 was released and, if anything, the buy in for electronic shifting will be less on the mtb side than it is on the road.

    I would also be surprised if they don't rethink the XTR crank offerings. I could see them ditching the triple and the "race" double in favour of one new crank with double and single ring options. On the road side, the new DA and Ultegra now have a single spider for compact, standard rings.

    To me, the big question is what do they do out back? 11 speed? 10-42? Personally, I'm hoping for some kind of 10-speed wide range setup but I'm doubtful. My guess is a whole new freehub and an 11 speed cassette.
    I hope that shimano will keep evolving the mechanical groupsets, as they have done on the road. I recently swapped to ultegra 6800 from dura ace 7900 on my road bike and the improvement is huge. The only 'gotcha' is the new freehub body that it forces, which for the most part won't fit mtb hubs due to no backward compatible wider freehub offerings by the hub manufacturers. Something tells me shimano will go with and 11 speed 11-40, 11-42, or even 11-44 cassette, which will force a wider freehub as it does on the road, and will likely share the same dimensions as the 11 speed road cassette to keep things consistent. It seems 11-42 offers a pretty wide range and would allow someone to run a slightly larger 1x chainring than they normally could with a 11-36. My current 1x setup is a 32x11-36. Great for most riding around where I live, but would kill me in the steep mountains at high altitude. However, now that wolftooth offers a 42t cog that will fit my XT cassette I could always swap to one of those and have a lower ratio. The only problem with that is the big ratio jump from 15-19... which seems to be in a bad spot.

    In terms of the crankset I think shimano would be very wise to go with a removable spider design for the next generation stuff. I used to be completely sold on shimano cranks until I used a few of the SRAM removable spider designs. It really opens your options without forcing an odd BCD. I'm running wolftooth direct mount rings on two sram cranksets right now and really like the simplicity and reduced weight that the direct mount chainrings allow.

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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Still the other S wins....for a true 1x WR 11spd mtnbike groupset...

    Pity Shimano, I expected equal or more....

  54. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    Still the other S wins....for a true 1x WR 11spd mtnbike groupset...

    Pity Shimano, I expected equal or more....
    I'll take Shimano with a General Lee partial cassette over Sram any day.
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  55. #255
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    Maybe the look of the those cranks will grow on me, but I am not so sure. And why stop at 40 tooth? For me this makes a Shimano 1x set-up probably out of my gear ratio range... and I'm not so keen to switch to SRAM. Di-2 on a mountain bike (or in general)?....meh. I think I'm with TwoTone on the modified cassette idea.

    It is early yet and maybe these things will get hashed out for the better. I won't be holding my breath on that though.

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    Yeah shimano has blown this one big time. Honestly, I wish this 1x tech would make its way all the way to road bikes. You know how annoying it is trying to teach new riders what shifters do??? Screw compact cranks give me a 44 with a 10-42 for the road. But I digress, having just moved to Florida and its zero hills, I'm ready to strip off my granny and bignring from my triple crank. With a 10spd drivetrains shimano is still making MTB triple cranks which seems ludicrous to me and I'm 250lbs and need all the help I can get going up hills!

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  57. #257
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    O yeah! I forgot to mention the triples? in 2014? whats the point? With a wide enough range cassette it has been pretty much proven that 1x is the direction and at most a 2x, and this is coming from a guy on a 29er in the Bay Area with plenty of steep and tech climbs.

    Again as details hash out, hopefully this will turn out to be a single spider-less crank with direct mount 1x or 2x or I guess 3x options galore.

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    Finally!

    The cranks are hideous, reminds me of the current Deore cranks except with ugly hollow rings. (Maybe it's just the way the light is cast?)
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11-62138.jpg

    I fail to see the benefit of hollow rings, especially on a cog with just 30-36 teeth. Do they really see much lateral load? Luckily the cranks can be easily subbed for something else. And the largest cog of 40 is disappointing, hopefully that is the "race" one for those that want closer ratios and a "trail" version in the 44-46 range will be coming. Other than that, looks good. I've always disliked the bulky look of trigger shifters, not to mention the ergonomics of throwing that downshift lever, nice to see something smaller.

    And no, electronic is not a bad thing, it will be a great option as long as they also offer high-end cable-driven groups.

  59. #259
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    The only other consideration. I have for my current drive train is to go from my 11-36 down to an 11-25 and then I will have road bike like cadence gaps and can start using my granny ring again

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  60. #260
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    I think you have to look at it from shimanos POV. They seem to have decided that they aren't interested in making people buy a new wheel or a $100 driver, so they have elected to keep things the same with just a little variation.

    You get 11 gears which is just one extra gear - it isn't a revolution that's for sure, but at least it still uses the same cassette body and the same deraileur architecture - therefore it's an upgrade option and mixing and matching is possible, with xx1 you need a compatible wheelset, an xd driver, a shifter, a cassette and a deraileur.

    Critically it also means at a race you can swap out a rear wheel in case of a failure - anyone's spare rear will do as long as it has a std ubiquitous cassette body.

    Ps - hopefully it's only a. $200 cassette as well.

  61. #261
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    I also set up my carbon HT that has cyclocross tyres with 36t and X01.....sort of like your roadbike wish cpfitness, 1x roadie is a distinct possibility.

    Yep, Shimano are just plain stubborn to cycling re-invention.

  62. #262
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    Shimano road 11 is entirely incompatible with its predecessors. A new wider freehub body is needed to handle the wider cassette. I can't imagine that Shimano mtb 11 will work with any 10 spd parts.

    Expect the XTR cassette to be way more than $200.
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  63. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Shimano road 11 is entirely incompatible with its predecessors. A new wider freehub body is needed to handle the wider cassette. I can't imagine that Shimano mtb 11 will work with any 10 spd parts.

    Expect the XTR cassette to be way more than $200.
    Well if that is the case , then they got nothin'!

  64. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Shimano road 11 is entirely incompatible with its predecessors. A new wider freehub body is needed to handle the wider cassette. I can't imagine that Shimano mtb 11 will work with any 10 spd parts.
    This. I've seen one or two MTB hubs recently released with modified flange spacing and mention of "Shimano 11 speed" so my fears have now been validated. You thought buying a new driver for SRAM 11 speed was bad? How about a whole new hub with even worse flange spacing? I was hoping Shimano would finally see the light, but this confirms they're just on an entirely different page than I. 11-40 with a minimum of a 30t on the crank? And electronic shifting? No thanks to all of that. Bring on the SRAM x9-1!

  65. #265
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    Yep I figure the very distinct possibility of a new hub flange spacing is imminent in order to make space for the wider free-hub body. I do think a properly re-spaced 142mmx12 hub would still offer sufficient bracing angles for a pretty stiff wheel build, but that does not mean I want to be forced to do it just to use Shimano's latest offering.

    And Mutant, I never said electronic was bad, just meh! I'm sure it will shift awesome, but when I'm in the throws of a really fast techy single track ride, I never think about my shifting and just do it. In fact, if I focus at all on my bike and not the line or terrain it is the brakes, suspension, tires and then the gearing...well before the shifting. I won't personally be paying extra for it.
    Last edited by oaklandish; 02-14-2014 at 10:21 AM. Reason: clarification

  66. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by oaklandish View Post
    Yep I figure the very distinct possibility of a new hub spacing is imminent. I do think a properly re-spaced 142mmx12 hub would still offer sufficient bracing angles for a pretty stiff wheel build, but that does not mean I want to be forced to do it just to use Shimano's latest offering.
    Shimano generally isn't one to mess with things like hub spacing. You can be sure it'll be 135QR and 12X142 compatible. They definitely don't mind changing up standards a bit but pretty much always ensure that you can put it on a reasonably new frame.

    Not all 10spd road hubs can be converted to 11spd but many can with a new free hub body and a wheel redish. Funny thing is that none of Shimano's 10spd wheels or hubs can be converted to 11spd. I stay away from their hubs and wheels for this reason.

    Also, I'm a huge fan of Shimano and Di2 so I'm looking forward to seeing more of this. I'd use this on my XC bike which has a double or triple crank depending on the ride (1X11 just doesn't have enough of a gear range) and I really like that Shimano has gone with a 30T option for a chainring. Absolutely perfect IMO!
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  67. #267
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    I think this is going to flop, hard. I don't like Sram 2x10, but XX1 is sweet. I think ill be running 10 speed for a long time. I just this month converted from 9 speed.

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  68. #268
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    What is the point of 11 speed with 2 or 3 front rings?
    and 11 - 40 is kinda narrow.

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What is the point of 11 speed with 2 or 3 front rings?
    and 11 - 40 is kinda narrow.
    Exactly. 11-40 on a 1x is fine for me, but not at the expense of a new hub.

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    Disappointing. Not worth it for me to upgrade just to go from 11-36 to 11-40.

  71. #271
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    Quote Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    Disappointing. Not worth it for me to upgrade just to go from 11-36 to 11-40.
    Especially when you can buy 42t cog and 16t (to replace 15 and 17) and make a 10sp equivalent.

  72. #272
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    The compromise you (and I) make is the slow and sometimes clumsy shifting with the add on 42T. With XX1/01 and I'm sure with Shimano...you'll get clean, crisp, and fast shifting every time. No compromise...except for the lighter wallet.

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    The opportunity to use 2x11 or 1x11 that only be possible with Shimano is the point. For those 1x11 is enough Sram is the best choice.

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    The rear derailleur looks mechanical but that front definitely looks Di2. Too many people complaining about the cassette range.

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    This all makes me kinda wonder if shimano didnt just give up. On one hand, they know they have so much market share and plenty of people are getting by just fine with shimano 10speed 1x systems so perhaps they are just fine with it as is and are hanging their hats on their name as well as better brake products. Xx1 addressed several issues(chain retention on 1x system, low and high end range on 1x systems, weight). SRAM could justify bringing it out at top level pricing. Shimano wznts us to pay xtr level prices for what? A 40t cog? What other features is this going to have?

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  76. #276
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    SRAM set the trend for 2x10, followed by 1x11. On the road side, Shimano is the leader with well developed products. On the mountainbike side regarding drivetrains on the other hand, they have been trying to catch op for the last 5 years, with no success.

    A 2x11 sure opens extra possibilities, but I don't think the majority is waiting for this. Bummer.

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    2x11 doesn't really open any possibilities. I have a 3x10 right now but there are pretty much no scenarios where a 22/36 is useful. If a hill is that steep, I'm walking up it.

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  78. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    2x11 doesn't really open any possibilities. I have a 3x10 right now but there are pretty much no scenarios where a 22/36 is useful. If a hill is that steep, I'm walking up it.
    Sure it does, for those that are riding 22/36, or even 20/36 up front. They can stick to a more common 24 up front.

  79. #279
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    Too little, too late. IF SRAM can bring out cheap 1x11 on the X9 and X7 levels, their sales will explode.

    If all 11speed cassettes will need new freehubs, then there's no downside for the SRAM switch, you will need new freehub either way. Actually SRAM's version has the added bonus of keeping the wider flange spacing.

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    I suppose we shouldn't judge too much on just a few images, but I see absolutely nothing interesting here. I have an XTR 980 (trail double) groupo that is fabulous, but if I ever do decide to try a single ring it will be either SRAM or a hack job with Wolftooth parts. The cassette is most disappointing -- all the hassle of a new freehub just to get a 40t cog? If I go through that, with SRAM, at least I'm getting a 10t and 42t cog.

    Di2 will probably be amazing, but at first glance, it looks like they totally misread the market on single rings. My guess is they were working on this before XX1 came out and changed everything. These days a lot of people are keen to simplify their drivetrains. And Shimano comes out with an electronic triple. Seems like bad judgement to me. Hopefully there's more to the new group.

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    Interestingly it looks like from the photos only the front derailleur is electronic. That would make sense. Not sure I would want to destroy an electronic rd with a stick....

  82. #282
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    I see a left & right electronic shifter

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    Quote Originally Posted by cpfitness View Post
    This all makes me kinda wonder if shimano didnt just give up. On one hand, they know they have so much market share and plenty of people are getting by just fine with shimano 10speed 1x systems so perhaps they are just fine with it as is and are hanging their hats on their name as well as better brake products. Xx1 addressed several issues(chain retention on 1x system, low and high end range on 1x systems, weight). SRAM could justify bringing it out at top level pricing. Shimano wznts us to pay xtr level prices for what? A 40t cog? What other features is this going to have?

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    Its hard for me to absolve SRAM of all wrong doing when their cassette (which is not a one-time purchase) effectively costs $400 PLUS the cost of a driver body. Than they produced defective 11 speed grip shifters that were breaking on many peoples' first ride. And finally I have heard consistent bad things about their type 2 derailleurs clunking. That's 2 of the 3 major components of their drivetrain all with huge quality problems and the other one is outragously priced. And then their brakes... don't even get me started. Shimano only has to make something that works correctly and that is what I'm going to buy. To each their own.

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    The other thing that ticks me off about SRAM is to me it seems that they're the ones that don't care. They make defective products (09-12 Reba lowers crooked, ALL their brakes, the fragile carbon cages on their derailleurs for years...) and they don't correct the defects for multiple design generations. Literally the only SRAM things that I want are the ones Shimano doesn't (well, didn't) make - a 1-by-X drivetrain and grip shifters.

  85. #285
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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by madskatingcow View Post


    I see a left & right electronic shifter
    How do you think the new shifter action works? Push- push or maybe push forwards to shift down and then pull towards you to shift up?

    Looking at the small XTR 1x chainset picture the single ring version doesn't appear to use a narrow- wide chainring. For a 1x11 setup you may still need either a front chain guide or an aftermarket narrow-wide chainring to stop the chain coming off.

    With the front derailleur I'm wondering how many different versions there will be. Over the last few years mountain bikes have come with so many different front derailleur mounts that you'd need several designs of electronic front derailleur to fit them all. It might be that compatibility is limited to a few select bikes?

    Along the same lines you have the issue of battery placement and wiring. Some newer bikes come with what are clearly intended to be Di2 battery placements (the 2014 Specialized Epic with its SWAT toolkit for example which is a placeholder for a battery pack) but a lot of older bikes may have problems accommodating an external battery as there's no room, especially if you still want to carry a water bottle at the same time.

    Can you use an internal seatpost mounted battery at the same time as a dropper seatpost?

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by Mutantclover View Post
    The other thing that ticks me off about SRAM is to me it seems that they're the ones that don't care. They make defective products (09-12 Reba lowers crooked, ALL their brakes, the fragile carbon cages on their derailleurs for years...) and they don't correct the defects for multiple design generations. Literally the only SRAM things that I want are the ones Shimano doesn't (well, didn't) make - a 1-by-X drivetrain and grip shifters.
    If their products are so defective, why are people buying them? I openly admit I have no sram MTB experience but I heard haters hate about sram road groups yet my force group has been amazing. Bottom line, shimano has blown a tremendous opportunity here. Yes electronic shifting is cool, I especially love the idea of not having to fiddle with my drivetrain to keep it shifting smooth but to charge a premium price just to get it? There needs to be some other benefit here. There only saving grace will be if they rapidly trickle it down to the lower levels so at least make a mechanical 11spd as well down to the slx level so people will at least start adopting the new rear wheel they will need

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  87. #287
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    Quote Originally Posted by madskatingcow View Post
    SRAM set the trend for 2x10, followed by 1x11. On the road side, Shimano is the leader with well developed products. On the mountainbike side regarding drivetrains on the other hand, they have been trying to catch op for the last 5 years, with no success.

    A 2x11 sure opens extra possibilities, but I don't think the majority is waiting for this. Bummer.
    I don't agree with the catch up comment in terms of shimano trying to play catch up the past 5 years on the mtb side. IMO the shimano 2x system is superior to SRAM's. Yes, they were a little later to the market with a 2x system, but they took their time and developed a system that worked better and is more durable than SRAM's.

    On top of that shimano's brakes are in a different league compared to SRAM/Avid. There is no one that will question that.

    I'll gladly wait for something that works well where I don't have pay to be the beta tester.

    Am I overwhelmed by this little leak of information on the XTR stuff... not at all. However, this is a few pictures and likely not the whole picture. I'm also not a fan of 'new' shimano 11 speed spacing. I recently upgraded to 11 speed ultegra on the road side, and fortunately all I had to do was buy a new freehub. The increase in performance over the 10 speed dura ace groupset that it replaced is HUGE. However, I don't have this option with my mountain hubs, as no one offers an 11 speed compatible freehub. This poses a problem because I would like to go to an 11 speed road group on my disc cx bike... but there's no freehub for my disc hubs (king) that allow you to run 11 speed. All these new standards do suck, especially since NOW it's likely that each manufacturer has decided to come up with their own standard. Not good for us as consumers in terms of interchangeability... but maybe that's part of their plan???

  88. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiflow_21 View Post
    I don't agree with the catch up comment in terms of shimano trying to play catch up the past 5 years on the mtb side. IMO the shimano 2x system is superior to SRAM's. Yes, they were a little later to the market with a 2x system, but they took their time and developed a system that worked better and is more durable than SRAM's.
    Those who innovate always take a risk. If SRAM didn't come out with 2x10 or 1x11, do you think Shimano would have come out at all? You think the longer time it took them was to develop their products thoroughly or start developing? In the mtb drivetrain area, they changed from leaders to followers in my opinion. Sure, their XTR stuff is thoroughly developed and has some clever features (I've ridden XTR the past year and numerous years before, coming from X0 / XX), except for their XTR PD-M980 pedals . Love the XT / XTR brakes though, they are in a class of their own.

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    More photos:






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  91. #291
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    Nice pics. So their strategy is simple. "Shimano 11 speed with your choice of mechanical or electronic shifting and our consistent shimano reliability and quality". Makes some sense but really isnt the point of 11 speed to be able to go to a 1x system. Seems ludicrous that they are still planning to have a 3x offering

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    are you guys blind??? The description under the crank has the 1x chainring options listed.

    30t 32t 34t 36t

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    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by vizsladog View Post
    are you guys blind??? The description under the crank has the 1x chainring options listed.

    30t 32t 34t 36t
    Not blind at all but it also shows decriotios for 1x 2x and 3x on the shifter and derailleur parts

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    How easy will it be to swap the front chainring with the crank still mounted on the bike? If possible at all?

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    I like the ability to have options...I'd probably run 1x10 / 11 for local riding, but put a double up front for the times I ride up north.

    Besides, I'm pretty sure we'll see other cassette gear combos, sooner than later. Especially since XTR has split into Trail- and Race-oriented niches.

    Actually, it's been good---both for the buying public as well as for Shimano's attitude---to have SRAM give them so much grief, and taking market share. Prior to SRAM's rise, Shimano's take to the public would be, "take it or leave it...we're Shimano, we don't care because we don't have to. Where else are you going to go? SunTour?"

    Since then, they've pulled a 180, and almost give too many options.

    And still, people are kvetching...oy vey!

  96. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by bog View Post
    Shimano generally isn't one to mess with things like hub spacing. You can be sure it'll be 135QR and 12X142 compatible. They definitely don't mind changing up standards a bit but pretty much always ensure that you can put it on a reasonably new frame.

    Also, I'm a huge fan of Shimano and Di2 so I'm looking forward to seeing more of this. I'd use this on my XC bike which has a double or triple crank depending on the ride (1X11 just doesn't have enough of a gear range) and I really like that Shimano has gone with a 30T option for a chainring. Absolutely perfect IMO!

    I was referring to and meant to say the flange spacing of a wider 142mm hub could be used to keep a relatively stiff wheel build. Unlike the Shimano road version that went from a 130mm hub to a 131mm. Here they really leave a very very narrow margin for getting an acceptable tension difference between the drive and non-drive sides.

    I'm basically a Shimano fan as well, but they seem to be a bit obtuse in their interpretation of what riders are actually using and wanting. I hope, as the details trickle out that they demonstrate me to be wrong. Shimano's history has not shown this to be true though.

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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by WR304 View Post
    With the front derailleur I'm wondering how many different versions there will be. Over the last few years mountain bikes have come with so many different front derailleur mounts that you'd need several designs of electronic front derailleur to fit them all. It might be that compatibility is limited to a few select bikes?
    To answer my own question there are two XTR Di2 front derailleurs (double and triple versions) which use a modular design and a series of adapters for High clamp, Low clamp band fittings, plus also D type and E type direct mount fittings.

    The other interesting thing on the slides is

    New Shimano Synchronised Shift
    "System communication with rear derailleur"

    SC-9050 System Information Display
    Shimano Synchronised Shift Mode Switch

    "3 shift modes available (S1/S2/Manual)

    Sus mode position indicator(Climb/Trail/Descend)"

    What that sounds like is that the Shimano XTR Di2 system when used with a front derailleur may have the seqential shifting that was on a Fairwheel bikes showbike several years ago. The idea being that you press the shifter and the system decides when to change chainrings for you.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/...ipped-hardtail

    The Fox iCD electronic suspension system uses a Shimano battery and wiring already so it's not a great surprise that the two will integrate together.

    http://www.pinkbike.com/news/Fox-iCD...n-Earnest.html

    The next question is what about with the Rock Shox EI suspension system that comes on bikes such as the Lapierre range. Will they need two seperate batteries and wiring if you want XTR Di2 on a bike with Rock Shox EI? Rock Shox is owned by SRAM so they might not integrate.

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    Any detail about needing a new freehub? The final nail in the coffin for me on XX1 was my 6 month old wheel not being able to run a Sram XD driver body.

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    The description says 10/11 speed compatible free hub body. It could be the same as the neww 11 speed road hubs

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    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11

    Quote Originally Posted by RS VR6 View Post
    Any detail about needing a new freehub? The final nail in the coffin for me on XX1 was my 6 month old wheel not being able to run a Sram XD driver body.
    On the slide for the FH-M9000 and FH-M9010 rear hubs it says:

    "11/10 speed compatible freehub body"

    The XTR cassette only has a 11 tooth smallest sprocket, which is the same as current cassettes. (One of the reasons why SRAM XX1 needed a new freehub body was because a 10 tooth smallest sprocket won't fit onto a standard freehub.) From the description and pictures it looks like the 11 speed XTR freehub will be the same as for Shimano 11 speed road hubs and cassettes.

    That will mean buying a new 11 speed freehub body but on the positive side plenty of current hubs (including DT Swiss and Chris King) should be backwards compatible, just needing a new freehub body and drive side end cap:

    http://fairwheelbikes.com/c/forums/t...mano-11-speed/

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