• 04-06-2013
    randan
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Pex View Post
    Check out this photo, I believe this is a Shimano electronic 1x11 prototype.

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=1&theater

    This is Sram XX1 just with a Specialized crank, isn't it?
  • 04-06-2013
    muzzanic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by randan View Post
    This is Sram XX1 just with a Specialized crank, isn't it?

    That's what I was thinking.
  • 04-07-2013
    bikerboy85
    1 Attachment(s)
    Could this be a glimps at Di2 on Absalons new bike, or is it the new electronic system from Fox?
  • 04-07-2013
    limba
    That's it. There it is.
  • 04-07-2013
    r1Gel
    Looks to be the latter.
  • 04-14-2013
    bedell99
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    Sorry guys but that battery is just for the fox suspension. The derailleurs look to be standard XTR

    Erik
  • 04-22-2013
    zzzman20
    nanodrive :-p
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Mutantclover View Post
    I know it sounds crazy but when you think about it: how about making the chain pitch smaller?

    If manufacturing tolerances have allowed so much narrower chains (8 speed vs 10 speed) why not? Chain pins could remain the same diameter, and the plates could remain the same thickness, just shorter. The rollers would get smaller. Derailleurs and shifters could be compatible with existing setups (assuming the same number of speeds), the only thing that would have to be swapped would be jockey wheels which are nothing more than fancy plastic. That leaves the cassette, chain, and chainring to be must-haves for compatibility, which are all wear items anyway.

    Imagine a 20% shorter chain pitch allowing 20% more teeth per cog without changing the freehub body or needing larger chainrings. This would allow greater range on a cassette while better maintaining the ideal difference between gears of approximately 14%. 12,14,16,19,22,25,29,33,38,44,50 - for example. The 50t would be the size of a 40t with todays standards.

    Throw in a "floating chainring" that moves laterally to improve chainline at the extremes of the cassette and I'd be a really happy camper. Okay, I'm not sure if that one is possible, but it looks like it has been done before as seen here:

    How about the nanodrive? hee hee hee
    Nanodrive Bicycle Chain Drive System
    And apparently Shimano already tried doing a 10mm pitch chain in the 80's?
  • 04-22-2013
    RagerXS
    But chain pitch only affects how many roller pins are in the chain, or how many potential points of failure from wear. Drive ratios are all about the diameters of the gears - smaller gears with more teeth are still smaller gears...

    Fred
  • 05-09-2013
    yarrahappinni
    1 Attachment(s)
    Does GT have the answer?
    Attachment 797739

    Does this prototype GT drivetrain look normal XTR to you?

    No chain guide on a new Enduro weapon & the teeth on the front chainring look long. Is this a sign of the new Shimano 1x??
  • 05-11-2013
    epic
    There was a caption for that picture. It was something like "Dan Athertons new Enduro bike almost ready just needs a chainguide".
  • 06-21-2013
    Djg24
    I'm not sure what people are talking about here but a gear ratio is calculated off of the number of teeth in the system not the diameter of the sprocket.

    If you front was 28 and the rear was 42 it would be a 1.5:1 ratio, meaning for every time you spin the cranks 1 1/2 times the rear would go around 1 time.

    The same would be true if you front was a 30 and the rear was a 45. It would still take 1 1/2 spins of the cramk to spin the rear 1 time.

    The diameter is a result of the teeth count and the size of the teeth. Larger teeth/larger diameter will handle more torque and be stronger.
  • 06-23-2013
    bedell99
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    I wonder if they go to 11 speeds with next years XTR and just use the same cassette spacing as there 11 speed road group. I would love an additional 40 tooth gear and just keep the same cassette spacing as 36-11 10 speed cassette. To me this make sense.

    Erik
  • 06-24-2013
    Gnarleyspoke
    Talked to Shimano guys at 24 Hour this week up outside of Toronto. His reply to 'what are you guys doing to compete with XX1?', he said - "It's going to be WAY cooler and much better, just wait!" No further comment but something is in the works.
  • 06-24-2013
    spsoon
    And way more expensive? I don't really want something way cooler and better, I want a simple 10-speed 11-42 cassette that fits all my existing hubs.
  • 06-25-2013
    car_nut
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    And way more expensive? I don't really want something way cooler and better, I want a simple 10-speed 11-42 cassette that fits all my existing hubs.

    This. Though I'll accept a 10-42 since I run Hope hubs. No batteries, no custom bolt circles, no "cool" features that they'll try charging an extra $300 for. Give me a cassette that costs <$150, an SLX grade clutch derailleur and a crankset that allows a 28t ring. Done.
  • 06-25-2013
    Gripo
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by car_nut View Post
    This. Though I'll accept a 10-42 since I run Hope hubs. No batteries, no custom bolt circles, no "cool" features that they'll try charging an extra $300 for. Give me a cassette that costs <$150, an SLX grade clutch derailleur and a crankset that allows a 28t ring. Done.

    Me 3, come on Shimano!!!!
  • 07-08-2013
    indyfab25
    They are releasing 11 speed this fall probably across the lines. Reynolds is replacing my freehub with an 11 spd freehub.I asked if that meant 11 spd was coming and yes was the answer without giving me the answer.

    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 4 Beta
  • 07-09-2013
    limba
    I did my first ride on XX1 last night. It was great. I have no doubt that new XTR will blow everything else away.
  • 07-22-2013
    egebhardt
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by spsoon View Post
    And way more expensive? I don't really want something way cooler and better, I want a simple 10-speed 11-42 cassette that fits all my existing hubs.

    Anything other than this and I just won't do it. I'll even take an 11-40 cassette. Sorry. Not gunna do the General Lee cassette adapter. The tooth-number-jumps at the top are too big.
  • 07-22-2013
    jabrabu
    I think we'll find out in a week or so. I believe that's when the big dealer trade shows start happening.
  • 07-22-2013
    Varaxis
    Patent US5954604 - Multiple sprocket assembly for a bicycle - Google Patents

    + electronics possibly. They have a ton of electronic related patents, like an electronic motor based dropper post. Maybe when model numbers roll over from M-986 (for XTR or M-786 for XT) to M-1000 series, maybe you can expect the *start* of the revolution, beginning with the XTR groupset. Got to be patient with Shimano, as they are highly engineer based, but many of their innovations don't seem to come until they think the timing's right.
  • 07-23-2013
    customfab
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    They are releasing 11 speed this fall probably across the lines. Reynolds is replacing my freehub with an 11 spd freehub.I asked if that meant 11 spd was coming and yes was the answer without giving me the answer.

    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 4 Beta

    new XTR won't poke it's head out this year.
  • 07-24-2013
    epic
    We've already seen lot sof companies 2014 lines. I think we'd know by now about 2014.
  • 07-24-2013
    indyfab25
    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    new XTR won't poke it's head out this year.

    Maybe, maybe not. In a conversation with the Shimano rep he said that come September they are going to be releasing stuff that is going to "do some serious damage" to Sram. Reps talk like this all the time. Who really knows if that is true even if they release new items. But, given 11 spd cassette bodies are showing up on mountain wheels for a reason, I am guessing 11spd Is coming whether new XTR is coming first or not. Could be 11 speed XT at a price point much lower than XX1. I could see that doing serious damage.



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  • 07-24-2013
    car_nut
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    Could be 11 speed XT at a price point much lower than XX1. I could see that doing serious damage.

    I'm absolutely certain SRAM has the design work complete for X9 1x11. They're taking their time rolling it out since it's the only game in town. If Shimano released an XT tomorrow, you'd see X9 the day after.
  • 07-24-2013
    jabrabu
    I think if they just made a 10-speed 11-40 cassette that works with existing drivetrains and shifts well it would be big hit. They could also make some drop-stop style chain rings to go with it, but the aftermarket has that pretty well covered.
  • 07-24-2013
    epic
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jabrabu View Post
    I think if they just made a 10-speed 11-40 cassette that works with existing drivetrains and shifts well it would be big hit. They could also make some drop-stop style chain rings to go with it, but the aftermarket has that pretty well covered.

    Probably need a new RD for that.
  • 07-25-2013
    cyberavner
    Even if Shimano came out with something new tomorrow, I doubt it will be less expansive than that the XX1 and the X01. If I was willing to drop that kind of money on a new drivetrain, I would have done so by now.

    Unless Shimano releases something at a lower price point off that bat, it really doesn't make much of a difference to me what they come out with at this time.
  • 07-25-2013
    Gripo
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cyberavner View Post
    Even if Shimano came out with something new tomorrow, I doubt it will be less expansive than that the XX1 and the X01. If I was willing to drop that kind of money on a new drivetrain, I would have done so by now.

    Unless Shimano releases something at a lower price point off that bat, it really doesn't make much of a difference to me what they come out with at this time.

    I'm with you on this, even though I prefer Shimano....

    The longer Shimano drag their feet the more it doesn't matter to me......get it Shimano!
  • 07-26-2013
    satanas
    FWIW, it's extremely unlikely that there will be anything new or radical from Shimano this year at the August/September trade shows. There are a few new things, but the only new higher-level MTB bits are updated XTR brakes and cranksets with 40x30x22T or 38x24T, supposedly for bikes with 27.7/29" wheels. Yes there are a few other things too, but the big news is really 11 speed Ultegra which will have a Di2 hydraulic disc option from about November. All this stuff has been announced over the last few months, and there was nothing else hinted at during the AU 2014 dealer product launches during the last few weeks.

    I too was hoping for something like an 11-44T cassette that would fit existing hubs, but not this year. I'm sure that whatever Shimano come out with will not require or fit on an XD driver, but we'll have to wait until next year to see what's in the pipeline. It's interesting that Shimano have been later to market with 11 speed (than Campagnolo) and with 2x10 (SRAM), but with any luck everything will be fully sorted when it finally hits the deck. With all the new fatbikes and quasi-fatbikes coming out, it seems like Shimano are losing market share by having nothing to compete with XX1.

    I'm expecting new XTR (and maybe XT) groupsets to be announced next year...
  • 08-07-2013
    Mutantclover
    More thoughts
    Well since nobody liked my other idea, here is something more realistic. To create a superior 1-X drivetrain, Shimano is going to use the two technologies they already have that SRAM does not. The steel/carbon chainring and Di2. With Di2 you have effectively zero slop in your rear derailleur. Front shifting is what is most likely to damage a chain because you are pushing the loaded part of the chain laterally, so if you remove front shifting, your chain doesn't have to be as laterally strong. (Think about it, every time you've broken a chain the roller had pulled out of the outer plate right?) Thus it makes sense that they can make the chain narrower without it snapping, and thanks to the precision of Di2, make rear cog spacing narrower, without having derailleur alignment problems.

    The steel teeth on the chainring allow them to get away with narrower teeth from a wear/deformation perspective, while the carbon reinforcement prevents the chainring from folding even if it is the largest chainring and there is no bashguard. (See reasons steel alone is not commonly used for chainrings here, question #7: Frequently Asked Questions).


    Basically, Shimano should be able to pull off an even narrower chain and narrower cogs with the tech they already have, as long as its combined with the benefits that come along with no front shifting. So lets say that gets you an 11th gear all on its own. But IIRC, SRAM didn't really change the cog spacing for XX1, all they did was add an 11th cog next to the spokes, which is possible because the cog has such a large radius. If Shimano also puts a larger rear cog inboard like SRAM did, they should be able to go straight to 12 speed (and the cassette range that goes with it) while simultaneously introducing Di2 for MTB. And you would end up with a drivetrain that is better than XX1 in several ways.

    It would take them a long time to work all this out. I mean just mountain Di2, OR their first 1X drivetrain is a big project. Combining both makes tons of sense to me, but would be exponentially more work for their R&D.

    So there it is. Flame away.

    PS - those that want something inexpensive such as a larger range cassette for 9 or 10 speed - its perfectly possible but we all know the big money stuff always comes out first. Plus, IMO Shimano (and most manufacturing that comes out of Japan) is a company that doesn't like to make products with any kind of functional compromise. In their eyes, I'm sure having gear ratios that are higher than optimum is an example of such a compromise. (I know, I know, to many of us, the front derailleur is a much bigger compromise.) Also, as someone else pointed out, they would need the derailleurs to accommodate a very large variety of cassettes which would be a compromise as well.
  • 08-08-2013
    jabrabu
    Mutantclover, I like your thinking overall.

    I don't think they need to go much narrower on the cogs and chain, though. They already have 11-speed road groups that use a standard freehub, so that just needs to be adapted to a wider gear range for mtb use.

    I think we will see a Di2 XTR 11-speed drivetrain at some point (or maybe 12-speed as you suggested). And it will be super expensive. Eventually it will trickle down to XT and maybe SLX and be somewhat more affordable, but still not cheap.

    The other issue is what is the market for a system like this? Pro racers or other sponsored riders would likely use it, but what about the general market? Apparently there are enough people buying $10k bikes and Dura-Ace Di2 drivetrains that they keep making them, so there's probably a market for an ultra-expensive mtb group if it performs better than XX1.
  • 08-08-2013
    Gripo
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    I really don't care for the Shimano way anymore.....they've lost their way.
  • 08-08-2013
    yarrahappinni
    Now Mr Shimano lets get this Alfine Di2 on a mountain bike?
  • 08-09-2013
    satanas
    A long time ago now, Shimano patented a system that used a weird chain and had 14 cogs, two of which were mounted inboard of the cassette body, i.e., cantilevered over the spokes. This hasn't appeared, and it may be that the chain didn't really work, but there's no reason large sprockets cannot move further inboard; the rear mech isn't going to hit the spokes anyway.

    BTW, I cannot see how Di2 adds anything other than complication, expense and the probability of troubles after stream or river crossings. Bear in mind that road bikes get ridden in the rain, but typically do NOT have their drivetrains submerged, something that happens quite often off-road, in some areas/events at least.

    The simplest way for Shimano to come out with an XX1 answer (assuming they don't have a different/better idea) would be to use their existing freehub bodies, and add an extra cog (or two) inboard. This would require a new shifter and RD, but existing wheels could be used. Of course, Shimano might choose to modify the hub spacing somehow too.
  • 08-09-2013
    limba
    I have Ultegra Di2 and XX1. Di2 blows away XX1 in the mud, in the rain, on grass and probably long term. A quick search on Jenson says an XX1 rear derailleur costs $305 and Ultegra Di2 is $249.

    Whatever Shimano comes up with will instantly make XX1 old news. Be patient, the next XTR will be worth it.
  • 08-09-2013
    rideit
    That said, we have GOT to get away from this chain/cog/derailleur bullshyte.
    Di2, 12 speed...all piggy lipstick.

    We will get a REAL performance breakthrough when all of this crap is internal, strong, light, and efficient.
    It is clear that cost is basically no object....
  • 08-09-2013
    satanas
    ^ Rohloff solves just about all problems except weight and cost, but of course isn't Shimano.
  • 08-09-2013
    rideit
    Well, weight, cost, and performance (efficiency). I envision a 3rd gen of internals that will make a Rohloff look like a Sturmey Archer Drum brake, essentially.
    Space age shyte, biitches!
  • 08-13-2013
    mikkosan
    Have you guys seen this? Looks promising!

    Pinkbike posted it and took it off right away. A friend was able to get it just in time.

    Prototype Shimano Wide Range Cassette - Crankworx Whistler 2013 - Pinkbike
  • 08-13-2013
    spsoon
    Here's hoping it comes true!
  • 08-13-2013
    in the trees
    Gone again. Info?
  • 08-13-2013
    Jab70
    3 Attachment(s)
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by in the trees View Post
    Gone again. Info?

    Ask and ye shall receive ;)
  • 08-13-2013
    in the trees
    Thank you! Fingers-crossed that this becomes available soon.
  • 08-13-2013
    Jab70
    You're welcome. I'd say its a done deal. The market is too competitive for them to ignore 1x. I just wonder why the other site took down the article. I'm lookin forward to it, hopefully not too much longer!
  • 08-13-2013
    indyfab25
    Awesome

    Sent from my SCH-R530U using Tapatalk 4
  • 08-13-2013
    rideit
    Isn't that just a General Lee aftermarket cluster copy, with some machining?
    Bold move, Shimano!
    (But I hope it works)

    Leonardi Factory ?General Lee? 25T ? 40T Ten Speed Mountain Bike Cassette Adapter
  • 08-14-2013
    Varaxis
    Shimano's answer to SRAM's X-Horizon RD:

  • 08-15-2013
    Rick Draper
    I dont see Shimano producing a cassette like that with such a huge jump in ratios.
  • 08-15-2013
    indyfab25
    Re: Shimano's answer to SRAM's 1x11
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rick Draper View Post
    I dont see Shimano producing a cassette like that with such a huge jump in ratios.

    Ever see the mega range cassette?

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