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  1. #1
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    Saint M800 vs. M801 rear hub?

    Anyone know what the difference is between these two hubs? I can see looking at the exploded images that they have slightly different bearings or something like that, just wondering what the difference is?

    I'm considering building up a wheel and am not sure which one to purchase?

  2. #2
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    They are separate beasts. The current M810 looks to be an XT derived design. The original Saint M800 hub was designed to be bomp proof and serviceable.

    Here is the breakdown as I see it:
    ( M800 / M810 )
    Flange Diameter: 61mm / 52.8&53.8
    Weight: 475g / 355g
    Bearings: 36 x 3/16" / 20 x 3/16"
    Wipers/Seals: Sealed double/triple rubber seal / Standard Shimano cone seals
    Races: replaceable threaded into hub shell / Pressed into hub shell and freehub (not sure if you can replace)
    Mechanism: 36pt ratchet/pawl design / Freehub body with 10deg engagement
    Rotor: RT80, RT80s OS-CL only / compatible with all shimano CL

    Personally I think the M800 is a better hub. It's only weakness is the weight and the dedicated OS-CL. Otherwise I see no reason to upgrade. Quite the opposite I am stockpiling M800 hubs

    There is a claim that the 10 degree engagement on the M800 is an improvement, but by my math and also counting clicks 36pt ratchet/pawl the M800 hubs I have are 10 degree engagement as well.

    The new hub has smaller flanges, which means longer spokes. So potentially your wheel could be weaker.

    The new hub has fewer bearings. Good for weight reduction, but more load on individual balls. On the new hub the bearings are spaced wider, so they may not need to carry as much load individually. I don't think the new hub is sealed as well as the old one with respect to keeping the bearings clean and protected.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  3. #3
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    Hey, thanks, but I was asking about the 801, not the 810.

  4. #4
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    801 was a second gen. of the 800 slightly lighter, strength and engagement are the same.

    810 is a complete change.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by downhill2004
    Hey, thanks, but I was asking about the 801, not the 810.
    Wow, gotta check my reading comprehension. Maybe even my dyslexia
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by AL29er
    Wow, gotta check my reading comprehension. Maybe even my dyslexia
    But I found the comparison great. I agree that they seem like the hubs to stock up on. And you can find them quite cheap at times.

    Tim

  7. #7
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    I love the m800, it's just hard to service them since Park tool doesn't make 24 and 25mm cone wrenches. You could spend as much on servicing them as you would just to buy a new one.
    mountain biking is not a crime, so quit giving me dirty looks before I bunnyhop your car

  8. #8
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    You have to service yours?
    Valid point on the wrenches. Honestly I have never needed to get mine apart. Using it for trail duty my hubs were still spinning great after a year when I sold the bike they were on. I just snagged 2 off ebay, we'll see how long they go on the factory lubrication
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  9. #9
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    Okay, following up on this one.

    Indeed the M801 has a caged bearing arrangement and the races are not removable from the hub. Also looks like the M801 gets an additional seal ring at the hub bearings.



    You can however remove the plastic retainer cages and go to a loose ball arrangement like the M800. The M801 will house the same 3/16in bearings in qty.36. You can salvage 30 out of the plastic retainers. Only difficulty I noted was that the arrangement of the seal ring and ratchet body are reversed, so you have to flex the seal ring to get it past the ratchet (or you could remove the ratchet ). The seal rings are snug, but popped out fairly easy with a plastic tire lever. You will have to pop them out to remove the plastic bearing retainers.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  10. #10
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    Could you please do the comparison of M801 and M810 as you did in your first post in this thread?

    Thank you!

  11. #11
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    It works out about the same...
    Here is the breakdown as I see it:
    ( M801 / M810 )
    Flange Diameter: 61mm / 52.8&53.8
    Weight: 475g / 355g
    Bearings: 30 x 3/16" / 20 x 3/16"
    Wipers/Seals: Sealed double/triple rubber seal / Standard Shimano cone seals
    Races: Pressed into hub shell and freehub (not sure if you can replace) / Pressed into hub shell and freehub (not sure if you can replace)
    Mechanism: 36pt ratchet/pawl design / Freehub body with 10deg engagement
    Rotor: RT80, RT80s OS-CL only / compatible with all shimano CL

    Going forward I will transition over to the M810 hubs. But for now I have 4 rear and 1 front m800/m801 hubs to work with and a pile of OS CL rotors. So long as people keep blowing them out I will continue to run the m800 series. I just bough another wheelset off ebay, M801 hubs, rhynolite rims, 36H, new with extra axles for $60. That is crazy cheap
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  12. #12
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    Yeah, it really is but I am looking for some Syncros rims, though...

    What do you think about Hope Pro 2 20mm hubs, comparing them to those Saint hubs?
    They (Saints) are much heavier, and I was surprised that no one did, nor ask, for a comparison of those two, as I couldn't find any discussion on internet - is it so obvious and I am the only one who doesn't see the difference?? :-/


    P.S. Thank you for comparison!!

  13. #13
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    This kind of takes a segway into a different topic, but the Shimano forum is slow so I will indulge. Saint hubs, M800 series and the new m810 series, are nice hubs but lack the bling factor of hubs like the Hope. Weight aside I think the saint hubs are a better design for durability. They are well sealed against the elements, using well designed seals instead of relying on sealed cartridge bearings.

    The Saint has better engagement (10deg vs. 15deg IIRC). It also has better trail manners (is a lot less noise riding down the trail). It also uses a forged freehub body so you can use any cassette you want.

    The biggest flaw of the Saint stuff is the retail price. At full pop it is every bit as expensive as the Hope hubs. Honestly I think most would go for the nice colors and lighter weight if price is the same.

    The second strike against saint is the centerlock disc interface. I find the centerlock a good feature. A lot of people don't like it though.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  14. #14
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    Thank you very much for your (quick) reply.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by AL29er
    Going forward I will transition over to the M810 hubs.
    Any specific reason why you are not going to stay with M800s'?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by sith_lord
    Any specific reason why you are not going to stay with M800s'?
    OS CL

    The M810 uses the same CL as the rest of the shimano hubs. The standard CL also comes in a 180mm, which I prefer to the 160/205mm of the OS CL. More options and lower prices for rotors, that is really it.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  17. #17
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    And just because of it?
    I mean, while I was going through your posts from above, I got a feeling that the M800 would last more and is more durable than the new M810 ones, is easier to maintain and you can throw much more on them than on M810...
    Or is there such a small difference between them that it doesn't matter so much?

    Either way, I am more for 6 holes than CL...


    If we could on one moment forget about the way how we mount the rotors on hubs, which hub would get your vote - Saint or Pro 2?

    What do you think about Saint rear hubs (especially comparing them to Hope)?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sith_lord
    Or is there such a small difference between them that it doesn't matter so much?
    I do think the M800 series is more bomb-proof than the M810 series. But I don't have any issue with the XT hubs which are a similar design to the M810. So I think it is a non issue. 6 of one half dozen of another.

    which hub would get your vote - Saint or Pro 2?
    Well, I currently own 5 Saint hubs and no Hope hubs. You do the math
    Main reason for me to be so vested in the old saint stuff is that is is great quality and dirt cheap. If I could snag Hope hubs in 20mm/10mm configurations for $40-60 per hub I would likely run them. As it is they are 2-4X that amount and of no better quality. Win goes to Saint.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  19. #19
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    Nice.

    And what about rear? Do you have the Saints for the rear, too?

  20. #20
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    Mainly rear, 4X. Only one front hub currently. I like to use convertible front hubs so fork and resale options are not limited. I did run F&R saint M800 in 2006-2007.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  21. #21
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    It's been a while, but after few conversations with a few people, they said that they are very sceptical about Shimano cone seals, taking in question it's durability and ease (and price) of replacing bearings within Shimano (Saint) hibs...
    I would like to hear your thought(s) as well, AL29er, considering maintenance and durability of Saint hubs (especially front M810 20mm QR and rear M815 135x9).

    Thanks!

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by sith_lord
    I would like to hear your thought(s) as well, AL29er, considering maintenance and durability of Saint hubs (especially front M810 20mm QR and rear M815 135x9).
    I can't comment on the M81X series of hubs, I haven't personally used them or wrenched on them. I can venture a guess that the seals will hold up fine as it is similar in design to the XT and XTR designs which have been in production for about a decade.

    The M80X hubs have IME been amazing, that's why I have invested in them so heavily (I have 5 of them now). I have been running them since 2007. My original hubset was built into 2 separate wheelsets and were ridden from mid-2007 through the end of 2008 without so much as even needing to adjust the hub cones. They were spinning great even when I sold them.

    My current M801 with the most mileage on it has about 8 months of use and just under 1000mi. I pulled it open and swapped it over to loose balls last month. The grease inside the hub was still pristine and in no way had the hubs seal been compromised. That says a lot since the last year has been about the wettest, muckiest, and downright abusive to bike components. I have even sent the bike through the pressure wash cycle about a dozen times after really nasty rides.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  23. #23
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    what was the original shimano dh hub,that had the deraileur tab as part of the axle system?I think it was a deraileur tab that replaces the existing dropout and has threads for the axle to thread into.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by herbn
    what was the original shimano dh hub,that had the deraileur tab as part of the axle system?I think it was a deraileur tab that replaces the existing dropout and has threads for the axle to thread into.
    All of the M80X series hubs come with the axle to run the integrated derailleur. I run an M801 GS rear derailleur on my Paradox...


    Of course with the correct axle any hub with a 10mm thru bolt design can be used with those derailleurs. The Hone M60X series derailleurs also can attach to the hub axle.
    Quote Originally Posted by saturnine
    that's the stupidest idea this side of pinkbike.

  25. #25
    saintRider
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    m800 hubs/ dt swiss fr600 rims

    Hi, I have been following the above posts, I am too lazy to count the spoke holes, but I was wondering if I would need 32 or 36 H rims... Currently I run:
    M800 hubs (F+R), rear Der., and brakes/rotors... I LOVE this setup and the fact that the rear axle screws into the rear der... bombproof... I got the hubs w/ the sunrim rhynolite rims... I have a thing for the DT Swiss fr600's or the EX500's what do you think?

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