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  1. #1
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    9 spd xtr rear der with 10 spd xt shifters?

    i have an almost new XTR Shadow 9 speed rear derrailleur and i'm thinking of trying the 1x10 thing. so will this mech work with the xt 10 speed shifter and a 11-36t 10 speed cassette? anyone tried it?

  2. #2
    the catalan connection
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    As far as I know, pull ratio has changed for the new 10 sp shifters/derailleurs.
    "Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordly evidence of the fact." George Elliot

  3. #3
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    10sp dyna-sys shifters are ONLY compatible with dyna-sys derailleurs, completely different cable pull.

  4. #4
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    ok, thank you. i wont bother then.

  5. #5
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    There were some people saying it will work... maybe call shimano and ask them. Something about shadow will and old style won't but I dunno for sure.
    "It looks flexy"

  6. #6
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    I called Shimano and officially, no. But unofficially the difference is very, very slight between the new and old rear mechs so it should work. However, the middle shifting might not be kosher.
    Last edited by indyfab25; 07-14-2010 at 09:21 AM.
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  7. #7
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    It definitely does not work. Just tried it. Oh well, guess I gotta pony up for a new derailleur as well. It was worth a shot.

  8. #8
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    I think this is so stupid on Shimano's part. The existing 9s MTB ders work perfectly with current 10 speed road shifters. This was nice for people wanting to run larger cassettes on their road or CX bikes. Now, they change the cable pull on the new 10s MTB ders.... so they are different than the existing 10s road stuff.

    At a time when SRAM is making such headway in mixing the road and MTB groups with their Apex road and all the new 10 speed MTB groups..... Shimano is taking a step backwards IMO.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by briscoelab
    I think this is so stupid on Shimano's part. The existing 9s MTB ders work perfectly with current 10 speed road shifters. This was nice for people wanting to run larger cassettes on their road or CX bikes. Now, they change the cable pull on the new 10s MTB ders.... so they are different than the existing 10s road stuff.

    At a time when SRAM is making such headway in mixing the road and MTB groups with their Apex road and all the new 10 speed MTB groups..... Shimano is taking a step backwards IMO.
    You nailed it.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by briscoelab
    I think this is so stupid on Shimano's part. The existing 9s MTB ders work perfectly with current 10 speed road shifters. This was nice for people wanting to run larger cassettes on their road or CX bikes. Now, they change the cable pull on the new 10s MTB ders.... so they are different than the existing 10s road stuff.

    At a time when SRAM is making such headway in mixing the road and MTB groups with their Apex road and all the new 10 speed MTB groups..... Shimano is taking a step backwards IMO.
    Yup...Shimano shooting themselves in the foot...again...
    They never seem to learn.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by briscoelab
    I think this is so stupid on Shimano's part. The existing 9s MTB ders work perfectly with current 10 speed road shifters. This was nice for people wanting to run larger cassettes on their road or CX bikes. Now, they change the cable pull on the new 10s MTB ders.... so they are different than the existing 10s road stuff.

    At a time when SRAM is making such headway in mixing the road and MTB groups with their Apex road and all the new 10 speed MTB groups..... Shimano is taking a step backwards IMO.
    But if the ratio was the same free hubs would need to be wider to fit the extra gear. On a road bike that might be okay, but with the added stresses of MTBing it might not be depending on they need to redish the wheel. If they go the other way its a mess in a different direction.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by agabriel
    But if the ratio was the same free hubs would need to be wider to fit the extra gear. On a road bike that might be okay, but with the added stresses of MTBing it might not be depending on they need to redish the wheel. If they go the other way its a mess in a different direction.

    You obviously are confused. 9s and 10s shimano freehubs are all the same width. Yet the 9 and 10 speed road system uses the same der geometry. The shifters just pull a different amount of cable per click.

    10s cassettes have closer spacing than 9s one. The shifters just index the shifts a smaller amount on 10s road compared to 9s. But the pull ratio that the rear der operates on is the same (ie rear der geometry).

    That is why you can use a 9s rear der (road) with a 10s shifter (road) or a 9s MTB der on a 10s road shifter. This is very common for people riding tandems or doing crazy stuff like the MT Washington hill climb.

    What shimano has done with the new 10 speed MTB groups is make ANOTHER pull ratio (ie different rear der geometry). So the new 10 speed MTB ders won't work with existing 10 speed road shifters. Also 9 speed MTB ders will not work with the new 10s MTB shifters (without a shiftmate).

    That is just stupid. Their system was already 100% interchangeable. It is a huge step backwards. Especially with so many new road and CX bikes coming with Sram Apex this year. Ability to run a compact crank and a 32T cassette basically ends the need for a triple crank on road bikes. There is just no reason to make the 10s road and MTB groups incompatible.... it's just a money grab or a HUGE oversight (and Shimano isn't know to do that).

  13. #13
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    I'm not confused - your *****ing that they came up with a new pull ratio. They are now squeezing 10 spds into the same amount of real-estate that they were squeezing 9 spds into before. This is pretty basic stuff - stay with me. So, depending on the numbers (don't work at Shimano, so I haven't seen them) they may have needed a particular amount of material for an MTB application that wasn't needed for road; since the destructive forces are different for the two applications. So if they were to keep the ratios the same, they would have needed to add material else where. I think thats pretty basic stuff; not sure why you think I'm lost - its engineering 101. Have you ever tried to design something to be produced? There are lot of trade offs that typically go into it.

    Then again; they may have just wanted to differentiate between the two products - who knows. I'm just saying you have no idea the trade offs they had to make for it work for the masses.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by agabriel
    I'm not confused - your *****ing that they came up with a new pull ratio. They are now squeezing 10 spds into the same amount of real-estate that they were squeezing 9 spds into before. This is pretty basic stuff - stay with me. So, depending on the numbers (don't work at Shimano, so I haven't seen them) they may have needed a particular amount of material for an MTB application that wasn't needed for road; since the destructive forces are different for the two applications. So if they were to keep the ratios the same, they would have needed to add material else where. I think thats pretty basic stuff; not sure why you think I'm lost - its engineering 101. Have you ever tried to design something to be produced? There are lot of trade offs that typically go into it.

    Then again; they may have just wanted to differentiate between the two products - who knows. I'm just saying you have no idea the trade offs they had to make for it work for the masses.

    You really have no idea what you are talking about. Everyone else seems to get it... you don't.

    "needed a particular amount of material"??? seriously... what you are even trying to say?

    It's not really that complicated at all. They changed to geometry of the rear der when they didn't need to, plain and simple.

    It's plain and simple because people have been using their existing 9s MTB ders to shift 10 speeds for year..... just fine in fact.


    We aren't talking about huge engineering changes in the new 10s MTb ders. Just a slight change in the parallelogram length and bolt mounting position for the cable attachment. They didn't add any material to contend with the mythical "destructive forces" you speak of. Have you seen the new stuff in person and actually looked at the differences? It's pretty clear that you haven't.


    All that was needed to be done was have the new 10s MTB triggers move the same amount of cable per shift as their road shifters do now. If they had just done that... all of the existing 9s MTB ders would have worked with the new system, hell even long cage road ders would have worked. That also makes it hard to sell new shiny parts though. What the actually did was change the amount of cable pulled per shift (very slightly) and changed the der geometry as well.

    They could have still made official 10s ders that were nicer/lighter/sexier/more durable than the existing 9s stuff (just like they did moving from 9 to to speed on the road).

    Actually it doesn't even both me that they made a new pull ratio and der design when moving the 10s MTB. They didn't need to (for the reasons listed above)... but it doesn't bother me. The completely goofy part is that they made it so their road and MTB 10s rear ders will not work together. That is just plain dumb. People are going crazy over the new Sram stuff making it easy to run an 11-32 on their road or touring bike, with a compact crank.

    What they have now done is make another standard, so that their 10s road and 10s MTb ders are not interchangeable. A lot of people (including myself) see that as a mistake and a missed opportunity.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by briscoelab
    You obviously are confused. 9s and 10s shimano freehubs are all the same width. Yet the 9 and 10 speed road system uses the same der geometry. The shifters just pull a different amount of cable per click.

    10s cassettes have closer spacing than 9s one. The shifters just index the shifts a smaller amount on 10s road compared to 9s. But the pull ratio that the rear der operates on is the same (ie rear der geometry).

    That is why you can use a 9s rear der (road) with a 10s shifter (road) or a 9s MTB der on a 10s road shifter. This is very common for people riding tandems or doing crazy stuff like the MT Washington hill climb.

    What shimano has done with the new 10 speed MTB groups is make ANOTHER pull ratio (ie different rear der geometry). So the new 10 speed MTB ders won't work with existing 10 speed road shifters. Also 9 speed MTB ders will not work with the new 10s MTB shifters (without a shiftmate).

    That is just stupid. Their system was already 100% interchangeable. It is a huge step backwards. Especially with so many new road and CX bikes coming with Sram Apex this year. Ability to run a compact crank and a 32T cassette basically ends the need for a triple crank on road bikes. There is just no reason to make the 10s road and MTB groups incompatible.... it's just a money grab or a HUGE oversight (and Shimano isn't know to do that).
    Really???? You guys have far too much time on your hands. Ride much

  16. #16
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    So as I understand it, if you wanted to run a shimano based 1x10 on your mtb using a 10 gear cassette, a set of 10spd bar-end shifters on either off-road drop bars or Pauls thumbie perches, and a standard 9spd XTR RD that should work fine correct? I am in the process of building another drop-bar mtb and thinking about a 1x10 gearing set-up so this thread is timely for me.

    Thanks

  17. #17
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    That will work perfectly.

  18. #18
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    Cool deal & thanks for confirming.
    -Jeff

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by briscoelab
    I think this is so stupid on Shimano's part. The existing 9s MTB ders work perfectly with current 10 speed road shifters. This was nice for people wanting to run larger cassettes on their road or CX bikes. Now, they change the cable pull on the new 10s MTB ders.... so they are different than the existing 10s road stuff.

    At a time when SRAM is making such headway in mixing the road and MTB groups with their Apex road and all the new 10 speed MTB groups..... Shimano is taking a step backwards IMO.
    SRAM did the same stunt last year!
    They were 1:1. Now they are 1:1.1 for the new 2x10 stuff.

    Shimano was 2:1. Now they are some ratio I don't know about.

  20. #20
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    It's not the same at all.

    Shimano already had a ration for 10 speed (road), it was exactly the same as their 9 speed (road and MTB offerings). They changed their 10 speed MTB offerings to be different and incompatible.

    Sram had the 1:1 on their older MTB stuff. When they developed 10 speed road groups they used a ratio that worked for that setup. It's understandable that might be different than what they had already (although it would have been nice if they kept it the same). When they came out with 10 speed MTB parts, they kept it the same as their 10 speed road stuff. That way everything is cross compatible.

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