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  1. #1
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    Idea! Sette Flite AM travel measured in mm (also leverage ratio)

    So, I drew a mockup of the Flite AM frame in a CAD program called SAM (by Artas) that is used for linkage and mechanism analysis (follow the link to download a free demo version. It's very easy to use but doesn't let you save). I wasn't satisfied with the travel specs being stated as 4"/5"/6", so I measured the actual vertical displacement at the dropout when a 190mm length 50mm stroke shock is compressed the full 50mm.

    Here are my results:
    6" setting: 144 mm = 5.67"
    5" setting: 116 mm = 4.57"
    4" setting: 100 mm = 3.94"

    Just thought I'd throw these numbers out there. I would say that these are accurate to +/-2mm since I basically overlaid the frame image in the CAD program and drew the linkage on top of that. There is a slight margin of error as I just "eyeballed" things this way. Below you see a screenshot of this along with the measurement of the shock, which is very close to 190 mm.

    Sette Flite AM travel measured in mm (also leverage ratio)-fliteam_cad.jpg
    Last edited by derailin_palin; 01-29-2010 at 05:32 PM.

  2. #2
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    What I find to be curious is the slowing rate of travel increase . Is it manufacturing discrepancy or is it designed that way ?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    What I find to be curious is the slowing rate of travel increase . Is it manufacturing discrepancy or is it designed that way ?
    Actually, that may be an artifact of how I drew the model. If you hold everything stationary and measure the eye to eye length of each of the rocker arm eyelets to the bottom shock mount point, the distances are not all 190mm. If you take the 5" mount hole of the rocker and call the distance to the lower mount 190mm, then the 4" setting is close to 2mm longer, and the 6" setting is 2mm shorter. Since the leverage ratio is about 3:1 for the 6" case, that translates to a -6mm error in measured wheel travel at the wheel, and about +4mm error in the 4" setting, with 0 error at the 5". So, the corrected numbers are more like

    6": 150mm
    5": 116mm
    4": 96mm

    Another way to visualize this is that when the shock is mounted in the 6" position, the rocker arm is tipped back slightly, pushing the rear dropout's 6mm lower than where it was in the 5" setting. Take these numbers with a grain of salt, but I put them up there for those who are shopping around for frames and prefer travel measured in mm instead of inches because for some reason manufacturers will distinguish 125mm from 130mm from 140mm, but these are all 5" bikes somehow.

  4. #4
    AZ
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    Thanks for taking the time to post this .

  5. #5
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    FYI, I measured the BB vertical drop in the 6" setting between shock fully extended and fully compressed and it was 85mm. I'm not sure right now how to translate this into vertical wheel displacement, but there it is. Maybe someone else can do the calculation?

  6. #6
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    More fun data
    Sette Flite AM travel measured in mm (also leverage ratio)-flite-leverage-rate.gif
    EDIT: I changed this graph. I miscalculated the leverage before. Now I calculate it as the the rate of vertical displacement of the wheel divided by the absolute compression rate of the shock. For example, I run a simulation in which I compress the shock its full 50.8mm in 1 second. The the shock compression rate is 50.8 mm/sec. At the same time I plot the derivative of the vertical displacement of the wheel, which gives wheel rate in mm/sec. Someone tell me if this is not right.

    EDIT2: Redrew the frame in Linkage 2 demo version and I get almost the same results as with the SAM software, but the leverage curve is surprisingly sensitive to small changes in pivot positions. It all comes down to how well I eyeball the linkage points when I overlay the image of the frame (which involves aligning the program and image browser windows on top of one another and switching between the two quickly to see how the pivot points line up. Annoying!)

    EDIT3: Found an awesome program for Windows XP called Glass2k which makes windows partially transparent. So I put the CAD program window over the window with the frame drawing and make the CAD window slightly transparent so I can see where to put the pivot points down.

    EDIT4 (!): Did the calculation for 5" and 4" setting. Again, these have a slight margin of error, but are very close to the real thing.
    Last edited by derailin_palin; 01-29-2010 at 04:58 PM.

  7. #7
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    let it be.
    I'm a mericun - i can't figger those dang millie-meters out any how.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    let it be.
    I'm a mericun - i can't figger those dang millie-meters out any how.
    It just seems kind of strange that ads for full suspension bikes round rear travel numbers to the nearest inch. You never see an ad claiming 5.25" or 5.7" rear travel. So, I just wanted to get a more precise measurement (doesn't matter to me if it's in imperial or metric units).

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by derailin_palin
    It just seems kind of strange that ads for full suspension bikes round rear travel numbers to the nearest inch. You never see an ad claiming 5.25" or 5.7" rear travel. So, I just wanted to get a more precise measurement (doesn't matter to me if it's in imperial or metric units).
    I know home-skillet, just bein a goof.

    Great stuff
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  10. #10
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    Anyone knows what tune does the Monarch 3.1 come with the Flite?

    The tunes go from A to E.

    Here's a chart for Monarch tunes for different frames but I don't know how to interpret it:

    http://www.bike-components.de/downlo...ence_chart.pdf

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    Anyone knows what tune does the Monarch 3.1 come with the Flite?

    The tunes go from A to E.

    Here's a chart for Monarch tunes for different frames but I don't know how to interpret it:

    http://www.bike-components.de/downlo...ence_chart.pdf
    Wow, didn't know they provided this info, it's gold! Wish I had this when I got my RS MC3.3 shock rebuilt. I was a newb at the time so not only did I give the rebuild shop the wrong leverage ratio (3.1) but I totally ignored the fact that it was not constant with wheel travel.

    See my earlier post in this thread, I have plotted the leverage curve for 4", 5" and 6" setting.

    For the 6" setting, the leverage curve straddles right between the Monarch B or C tunes.
    For 5", the curve straddles the A and B tunes.
    For 4", the curve fits the A tune.

    As for what Pricepoint actually ships, dunno. Someone should ask and post back!

  12. #12
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    BTW the stock monarch size for the Flite is 7.5 / 2, right?

    Do you know what's the difference between the regular Monarch and the HV (High Volume) Monarch?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    BTW the stock monarch size for the Flite is 7.5 / 2, right?

    Do you know what's the difference between the regular Monarch and the HV (High Volume) Monarch?
    Correct, 190x50mm or 7"/2". The HV can is better because you can run lower pressure which puts less stress on the air can seals. Also, as an air shock is cycled, repeated pressure spikes cause the temperature of the air in the can to go up according to PV=nRT. This can lead to the shock firming up under repeated hits. A bigger air can reduces this effect.

  14. #14
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    I'm an Electrical Engineer, not a Mechanical. What does all your fancy calculation tell us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    I'm an Electrical Engineer, not a Mechanical. What does all your fancy calculation tell us?
    I'm also an electrical engineer The link you posted above about monarch tunes explains in a single sentence and pretty pictures what leverage ratio means and how it's used to tune shocks.

    Basically the leverage rate is how "sensitive" the shock is to force inputs at different parts of the wheel travel. It's a curve because the linkage changes the leverage ratio as the wheel moves through its travel, so that the shock has a position-sensitive response. By designing the leverage curve you can tune the shock to behave differently for small, medium and large hits and adjust bottom out behavior. Note that this has nothing to do with compression and rebound damping, which are generally speed-sensitive rather than position-sensitive.

    In the case of the Flite, you can see that it has a falling-rate curve, so as you use up more travel the shock becomes stiffer to prevent harsh bottom out.

    If you need to know more, I recommend doing a search over in the suspension forums.

  16. #16
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    I called PP and they didn't know what the tune is. I asked another person who has the Flite and he said it comes in tune B.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    let it be.
    I'm a mericun - i can't figger those dang millie-meters out any how.
    You gotta admit 200mm sounds bigger than 8 inches

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake Pay
    You gotta admit 200mm sounds bigger than 8 inches
    hmmm...
    "Hey babe, check out my 200mm johnson!"

    I may have to try that
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  19. #19
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    The replacement Monarch 3.1 shock I received has a label on it showing "Tune A".

    With my gear on I'm probably around 200lb. I'm guessing the B tune is a better option for me.

    Thoughts?

  20. #20
    AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    The replacement Monarch 3.1 shock I received has a label on it showing "Tune A".

    With my gear on I'm probably around 200lb. I'm guessing the B tune is a better option for me.

    Thoughts?


    Base you tune selection on the travel option that you are going to use the majority of the time . Example : 6" travel , you might want to opt for the c tune . 5 " option , prob. go with the b tune .

  21. #21
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    I will be experimenting mostly with 5" and 6" setting. Not so much with the 4".

  22. #22
    AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    I will be experimenting mostly with 5" and 6" setting. Not so much with the 4".

    B or C tune , You say your around 200 lbs. geared up , if you think your going to stay at that weight the C tune might be the ticket . The shock tech should be able to get it sorted out though .

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS
    if you think your going to stay at that weight the C tune might be the ticket
    That's the million dollar question

    I'm losing fat for biking but I'm also doing weights which I guess is keeping my weight balanced. I'll have to experiment more to know exactly what tune I will be more comfortable with.

  24. #24
    AZ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    That's the million dollar question

    I'm losing fat for biking but I'm also doing weights which I guess is keeping my weight balanced. I'll have to experiment more to know exactly what tune I will be more comfortable with.

    Exactly , how it feels and works for you is the key . Good luck .

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    Until you lose all that weight, using Tune A in the 6" setting will probably not be that great and you will find that you blow through the travel in the mid stroke too quickly, with increased air can pressure being the only way to compensate for that.

  26. #26
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    I spoke to another person who has the Flite and got a replacement shock under warranty.

    He told me they sent him a tune B shock. Looks like SRAM is replacing the shocks without paying much attention to what tune they are sending out.

    I don't know how much he weighs.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    I spoke to another person who has the Flite and got a replacement shock under warranty.

    He told me they sent him a tune B shock. Looks like SRAM is replacing the shocks without paying much attention to what tune they are sending out.

    I don't know how much he weighs.
    A Manitou Swinger might not be a bad backup option if the shock fails, or in case you want to tune the shock yourself (lo/hi speed compression, progressiveness, etc).

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by derailin_palin
    A Manitou Swinger might not be a bad backup option if the shock fails, or in case you want to tune the shock yourself (lo/hi speed compression, progressiveness, etc).

    This IMHO is a very good option .

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by derailin_palin
    Correct, 190x50mm or 7"/2". The HV can is better because you can run lower pressure which puts less stress on the air can seals. Also, as an air shock is cycled, repeated pressure spikes cause the temperature of the air in the can to go up according to PV=nRT. This can lead to the shock firming up under repeated hits. A bigger air can reduces this effect.
    I got the HV Monarch 4.2 from bikebling and it doesn't say High Volume anywhere on the shock or the box. Any idea how to identify if it's HV or not?

    EDIT: Looked online a bit and couldn't find 4.2 High Volumes that come in 190x51 size which is the size I have.
    Last edited by Dictatorsaurus; 02-08-2010 at 05:30 PM.

  30. #30
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    SRAM replaced the dinged up Monarch 3.1 they sent me with a new Monarch 3.3.

    Interesting thing is that the sticker shows "C" tuning which would be suitable for the 6" travel.

    The 4.2 I have mounted right now is "B" tuning and set on 5" travel.

  31. #31
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    so now you have two shocks?
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll
    so now you have two shocks?
    Yep. 4.2 & 3.3. Bought the 4.2 myself.

    I'm thinking of selling the 3.3 but it might be a good idea to keep it as backup.

  33. #33
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    derailin_palin, lets say you put a B tune Monarch in the 4" position and set the sag to %25, how does that effect/change the performance of the shock?

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    derailin_palin, lets say you put a B tune Monarch in the 4" position and set the sag to %25, how does that effect/change the performance of the shock?
    Looking at the chart again (reproduced below):
    Sette Flite AM travel measured in mm (also leverage ratio)-monarchtunechart.jpg

    Matching up the tune curve with my leverage rate curve, the B-tune fits the 5" setting best. The 4" setting has a smaller leverage ratio. This causes the shock to feel stiffer, which you normally counter by reducing the air pressure to weaken the air spring a bit. However, it's likely that the bottom-out ramp up rate and high-speed compression damping are more pronounced for the B-tune, because it was designed for a higher leverage ratio with more travel. My guess is that it might feel a bit less supple on washboard stuff, but might be more progressive during the end of travel. I'd suggest calling up Rock Shox tech support and asking (and posting back here too). I think the only two variables they are changing are oil weights and nitrogen charge pressure but there could be more to it.

  35. #35
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    I've been riding a lot lately and I've been experimenting with the shock settings and travel.
    Using a B tune Monarch 4.2. The ride is harsh with anything less than 20% sag. Regardless if I'm using 4" or 5". At 25% sag the shock is much more plush and more forgiving going over big roots and logs. Today I used the shock at 4" and it wasn't too bad. I'll go back to 5" and see how it feels.

    I've been trying out the flood gate just for the sake of it. I like the ride more with the gate off. Initially I was concerned about pedal bob but to my surprise, the suspension pedals and climbs very well. I'm sure there are more "efficient" designs out there, but maybe they sacrifice ride quality a bit more? Not sure...

    Would you say the B tune is also suitable for the 6" slot?
    Do my observations regarding the sag and ride plushness make any sense?
    Did you end up replacing your small frame with something else?

  36. #36
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    Go ahead and try the B-tune on 6". It might actually work OK. The observations you make about the sag affecting harshness are similar to what I observed with the RS MC3.3. It has an adjustable floodgate knob with a 3-position lever (Off, FG, Lock). I ended up riding a lot more in the off setting, except for steep climbs. I found that in the FG setting, even with the gold FG knob tuned just 3-4 clicks from full open (it gets about 15-20 clicks I think), the rebound circuit for small hits was essentially bypassed, making the shock feel like a pogo stick for small hits. I also found that the rebound was not nearly as well controlled as on my 5th element coil. Setting the FG to full open improved things a bit, but I still don't like the rebound behavior.

    Still have the small frame, it's riding fine with a 90mm stem till I get time/money to switch it out

  37. #37
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    I forgot to mention that I also have a C tune Monarch 3.3.

    I might try it out after I get the 4.2 dialed in perfectly.

  38. #38
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    derailin_palin I've been running the B tube Monarch 4.2 in the 5" position.

    I want to make the bike a better climber but stiffing the shock. In other others I would the floodgate to stiffen up to eliminate any bobbing when I'm mashing off the saddle while climbing. Does changing the position on the shock from 5" to 6" make a difference in how the floodgate would work. Do you think switching to 4" would make it a better climber even though the shock tune is B?

  39. #39
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    If your floodgate threshold was fixed internally, then the pedal bobbing behavior would change when you switched travel settings. However, the 4.2 has the gold knob for adjusting that threshold, so you are able to tune the FG's behavior to be identical for all three travel settings. I think you should pick the travel setting depending on the terrain and play with the FG threshold after that. I have found the gold knob on my MC3.3 to have a very wide tuning range and very easy to adjust while in the saddle. Hence I run in the 6" setting and adjust it as necessary, or bypass the FG completely for downhill.

    Aside from the FG, I think you would notice a difference in the shock's response to small bumps because the shock's compression damping is tuned for a particular leverage rate. The B tune goes with the 5" setting, and the A tune goes with the 4" setting. I could be wrong in my reasoning, but I think the 5" setting requires more compression damping than the 4" setting because, for the same sag % setting, you need higher air pressure in the spring for the 5" setting than for the 4" setting, and so the compression damping for 5" has to be proportionally higher than for 4". So, by using a B tune in the 4" setting, you have more compression damping than what Rock Shox prescribes.

  40. #40
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    Any reason why you prefer to run in the 6" setting? Are you doing more jumps than XC?

    I thought the "B" tune was more suitable for the 6" position and not the 5".

    Even with the FG threshold maxed, does it make sense to still get some bobbing when mashing the pedals on the climbs?

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus
    Any reason why you prefer to run in the 6" setting? Are you doing more jumps than XC?

    I thought the "B" tune was more suitable for the 6" position and not the 5".

    Even with the FG threshold maxed, does it make sense to still get some bobbing when mashing the pedals on the climbs?
    In my post earlier, the charts for leverage rate and the tuning guide show that the B tune fits the 5" and 6" settings OK. Personally I ride 6" for the jumps. Its sluggish for XC, but I only ride the XC stuff so I can get to the DH stuff

    Even with FG maxed you will get a few mm of travel, but it shouldn't bob that same as if you had no FG.

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