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  1. #1
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    Sea Otter Sandbaggers

    I was just checking results from last year and this guy won Cat 3, 40 - 44 and had a better time than the winner of the Cat 2, 40 - 44.

    We should call out all of these sandbaggers.
    Last edited by surfstar1; 08-17-2010 at 01:16 PM.

  2. #2
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    After having looked at the results for cat 2 and 3, almost all of the podium winners in Cat 3 would have been podium winners in their respective cat 2 class. What a joke these peopls are.

    Can't the cycling governing body govern this type of ******ry?

  3. #3
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    It happens at every race you go to. Go to a USAC sanctioned race and you'll get beat by a guy that races twice a year and doesn't earn the points to move up. Go to an unsanctioned race and you'll get beat by some guy that thinks winning sport by 10 minutes is cooler than finishing mid-pack in expert. Any racing you do has this problem.
    i ride bikes

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    I raced Jetski's (Standups) for 10 years. You have the same things happen.

    There are those rare occassions when you got a racer who is just progressing really fast and before you are a quarter of the way though the season they are absolutly smoking everybody, even people in the class above them. Hopefully those like that step up.

    There was one kid that I was always racing against back in 2004 that was really fast, I ran Novice Ski and this kid was really fast. I did not see him over the next few years, He pops back up once or twice in 2006 and then again I see him at the Nationals in 2008 still racing in the Novice Class. I still keep up with it but have not raced in 2 years, I know last year he was still racing in Novice. That kid is a sandbagger.
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  5. #5
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    How do you figure it's "sandbagging"?
    If I entered my first local race I'd have to enter sport or a beginner class, and yet at the age of 46, I'm faster than some of the younger people that show up and race in faster classes of racing.
    For me that would be in Super D.
    I'm saying this, because some of them might be getting "pigeon holed". IE, it might be the only class they fit into, based on the classification system used.

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    Sandbagging is when you race in a class well below your level... Period...

    Sign up for the class where you fell your level of riding is equal to.

    If an average lap is 45 minutes for a beginner/novice and you do it at 30 minutes and can kick out 2 or 3 laps around the same time then your not a beginner.
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    This happens all the time in the Texas TMBRA series. They come in within the top three in the Cat2 group at the beginning of the year and later avoid placing high or racing at all when they see they are not going to win the championship jersey. Their times are not even in the ballbark of other Cat2s. I was happy to go to Cat1 on my third season. Got my rear kicked at first (a great time I may add), but since then I've moved slowly up in the top ten. Sandbaggers are often clueless how silly they look on the podium, year after year after year...

  8. #8
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    It also sounds like there are a few people who are bitter because they can't be the fastest beginner because there are faster people in the class.
    May the air be filled with tires!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ericmopar
    How do you figure it's "sandbagging"?
    If I entered my first local race I'd have to enter sport or a beginner class, and yet at the age of 46, I'm faster than some of the younger people that show up and race in faster classes of racing.
    For me that would be in Super D.
    I'm saying this, because some of them might be getting "pigeon holed". IE, it might be the only class they fit into, based on the classification system used.

    Eric.
    Partly there is a flaw in the USAC points system. Someone such as yourself would have to enter the beginner class if my memory is correct. I haven't done a USAC mountain bike race since I was a beginner. That isn't your fault. Now if you went to an unsanctioned race where you could enter the sport or expert yet entered beginner, thats where the problem is. Personally, I'm hoping to cat up next year out (road racing).
    i ride bikes

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    Quote Originally Posted by hillbilly_hank
    Partly there is a flaw in the USAC points system. Someone such as yourself would have to enter the beginner class if my memory is correct. I haven't done a USAC mountain bike race since I was a beginner. That isn't your fault. Now if you went to an unsanctioned race where you could enter the sport or expert yet entered beginner, thats where the problem is. Personally, I'm hoping to cat up next year out (road racing).
    I believe only road racing requires people to start at the lowest level. In mountain biking anyone can choose to race cat 2 and I believe it's very easy to petition to race cat 1 (not sure a petition is even necessary). One problem is people may not race cat 1 on a temporary license. So fast guys who only want to race once or twice a year and don't want to buy a yearly license must race cat 2. I'd say they're still sandbagging, but there is a reason behind it.

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    I think the cat 2 vs cat 3 classes have different courses so if cat 2 has to do 30 miles instead of 20, it would make sense that the cat 3 time is faster.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by scaryfast
    I think the cat 2 vs cat 3 classes have different courses so if cat 2 has to do 30 miles instead of 20, it would make sense that the cat 3 time is faster.
    I believe they only dramatically shortened the course for Cat 3 vs Cat 2 this year.
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  13. #13
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    I sandbag the pros. Wait.. On a serious note, every time I race SOC, I witness some of the most ridiculous sandbagging. I don't get it. I would rather be midpack cat 1 than standing on a podium representing a cat I don't belong in.

  14. #14
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    It would be nice if everyone raced the same distance. Then if you really care you can ignore you place within Cat and just pay attention to your place overall.

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    Cat 1 License

    I race Cat 1 and have friends who do too. Some of those friends are racing Cat 2 this year because you are not allowed to race Cat 1 on a one day license.

    The full year license will add $75+ to your race entry fee. Not worth it if you only do one race per year.

    My $.02

  16. #16
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by edimm
    I race Cat 1 and have friends who do too. Some of those friends are racing Cat 2 this year because you are not allowed to race Cat 1 on a one day license.

    The full year license will add $75+ to your race entry fee. Not worth it if you only do one race per year.

    My $.02

    Cat 1's who only race once a year? Wow. I wish I was that gifted!

    Also, JDM makes a good point, but some Cat 3's would probably struggle with the Cat 1 distances perhaps..

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    I didn't know you could race down a category? Once you upgrade, I thought you were locked in to that category, hmmm, what do I know

    I do know that in the Cat2 this year, they have drasticaly increased everyone's chance of getting a podium. They have narrowed down the age-groups, for instance, instead of the traditional 40-44, they have now created the 40-42 age group. This allows for many more medals awarded. I don't think they did that for Cat1 though.

    I am heading over to the course this weekend to check it out. Will bring my Garmin too!

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    I would rather be midpack cat 1 than standing on a podium representing a cat I don't belong in.
    Amen brother.

    Q

  19. #19
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    I keep hearing all this talk of sandbagging going on, and that I might be accused of it. I have NEVER raced before. Not once. I am signed up for the Cat 3 race at Sea Otter for the Cross-Country race and already people are warning me that if I win I will be labeled a “sandbagger”. Is this what the winners in Cat 3 always get to hear or something??? This will be the first race I have ever participated in. Should I purposely lose my first-ever race if there is a snowball’s chance in hell that I might be a semi-decent rider, or should I not give a rat’s ass what other people think??? I am confused now. I just turned 40 last year, had smoked cigarettes for 20 years (quit in 2006), and never really got serious about cycling until I started to commute to/from work back in the winter of 2007, otherwise my only “training” is just riding hard up the hills on my 47.8 pound mountain bike almost every day. Am I supposed to quit while I am ahead??? What gives?
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  20. #20
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    Leo, we'll find out this weekend what cat you belong in, won't we.
    I"ll be at NVDC in Cat3. I"m kinda the opposite of you... been racing for about 3-4 years now but never really ride enough or train enough to do anything better than the bottom 10-15% of Cat2. However, I do have race experience and course knowledge, so that comes in handy.

    Don't worry about the sandbagging label. If people start heckling you on the podium, you'll quickly move up to avoid the embarrassment.

  21. #21
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    The top 3 CAT II will be Pros. Happens every year.

    I half blame USA cycling because you cant get a one day licence for CAT I and you have to apply to move from CAT II to CAT I.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker
    I keep hearing all this talk of sandbagging going on, and that I might be accused of it. I have NEVER raced before. Not once. I am signed up for the Cat 3 race at Sea Otter for the Cross-Country race and already people are warning me that if I win I will be labeled a “sandbagger”. Is this what the winners in Cat 3 always get to hear or something??? This will be the first race I have ever participated in. Should I purposely lose my first-ever race if there is a snowball’s chance in hell that I might be a semi-decent rider, or should I not give a rat’s ass what other people think??? I am confused now. I just turned 40 last year, had smoked cigarettes for 20 years (quit in 2006), and never really got serious about cycling until I started to commute to/from work back in the winter of 2007, otherwise my only “training” is just riding hard up the hills on my 47.8 pound mountain bike almost every day. Am I supposed to quit while I am ahead??? What gives?
    You will be fine as a Cat 3 for this one. Loads of people for Otter. When you find yourself passing too many slow riders then you will know it's time to move up to Cat 2. If you are however tried and convicted of sandbagging.....I will no longer hire you / bribe you with coffee cards as a strava data collector on my rides !
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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    Cat 1's who only race once a year? Wow. I wish I was that gifted!

    Also, JDM makes a good point, but some Cat 3's would probably struggle with the Cat 1 distances perhaps..
    Same situation here. We race up in Oregon, cat 1, where most races a usac license is not required. Why spend an extra $75 or whatever it is just for 1 race? SOC is expensive to begin with, not to mention our travel expenses.
    Thus, Cat II

  24. #24
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    I am asking without any offense meant and I don't know how to ask "do you have to race?" without being rude; but I assume passing the riders of a lower category shouldn't be as fun as racing in your category, right?

    There must be other reasons that I am missing here. (I am a person who races once a year, only for fun, and finish consistently at the bottom 20% of Cat 2 SS.) For example, there may be a requirement of having to race a certain number of races a year. Is that it?

    Thank you,
    Ali

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient rascal
    You will be fine as a Cat 3 for this one. Loads of people for Otter. When you find yourself passing too many slow riders then you will know it's time to move up to Cat 2. If you are however tried and convicted of sandbagging.....I will no longer hire you / bribe you with coffee cards as a strava data collector on my rides !
    Actually… http://web2.puc.edu/Pioneers/NVDC/11%20results.htm

    Yes, I placed FIRST overall in Category 3 men’s at the Napa Valley Dirt Classic 2011… within all age groups (I even passed up a substantial number of the Cat 2s within the 35-44 range). So, I need to find out (sooner than later) from the Sea Otter people if I can change from Category 3 to Category 2… otherwise I will have to purposely ride my heavy-ass 47+ pound Surly 1x1 3" wide tire 32x20 singlespeed bike to make up for any “sandbagging” in Category 3. The second place finisher within my category (35-44) was six minutes behind me, so that equates to Category 2 times, methinks. I want to be fair to everyone, yes, I was SIX minutes quicker, that seems a bit unreasonable.

    Yes, this race felt too easy, I feel a bit of guilt, almost shame… yet it was my FIRST RACE EVER, so I think I need to just upgrade to Cat 2 and move on.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    Cat 1's who only race once a year? Wow. I wish I was that gifted!

    Also, JDM makes a good point, but some Cat 3's would probably struggle with the Cat 1 distances perhaps..
    yah really.... Cat 2 is a 20 mile loop and Cat 1 is 40... ouch. 40 miles. No wonder the Cat 2 races are filled with sandbaggers, they dont want to do a 40 mile race!.... I race Expert in a local series and some other stuff and the races are typically 25-28 miles or so...

    Q

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker
    Actually… http://web2.puc.edu/Pioneers/NVDC/11%20results.htm

    Yes, I placed FIRST overall in Category 3 men’s at the Napa Valley Dirt Classic 2011… within all age groups (I even passed up a substantial number of the Cat 2s within the 35-44 range). So, I need to find out (sooner than later) from the Sea Otter people if I can change from Category 3 to Category 2… otherwise I will have to purposely ride my heavy-ass 47+ pound Surly 1x1 3" wide tire 32x20 singlespeed bike to make up for any “sandbagging” in Category 3. The second place finisher within my category (35-44) was six minutes behind me, so that equates to Category 2 times, methinks. I want to be fair to everyone, yes, I was SIX minutes quicker, that seems a bit unreasonable.

    Yes, this race felt too easy, I feel a bit of guilt, almost shame… yet it was my FIRST RACE EVER, so I think I need to just upgrade to Cat 2 and move on.

    Seems like you should have entered Cat 2 for SOC then.. They should let you change it when you get (day BEFORE race) there or perhaps over the phone??

  28. #28
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Anyone notice how they broke the age groups up even more to lower the numbers in each field?? I called and asked what was up with that. I kinda got used to the 70+ riders per field thing and thought "that is what makes winning SOC so special".

    Anyways, the guy said "It increases your odds of standing on the podium now!!"

  29. #29
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    Hey Leopold you and I in same Cat 2 40-42 group...if you can change it. Will be fun to meet you and ride together (till you dust me probably!) And I do recommend you change it. Not because of sandbagging but just because you will get more out of it competing with the faster riders.

    What bike you using?
    Originally Posted by XC62701
    Agreed...make it longer. I want to know death is an option

  30. #30
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    Leo, this is my 18th year racing xc, I race Sport Clydesdale or Sport age 50, and you beat me at NVDC by 21 minutes. If I'm being honest, I'm jealous when guys say "it was my first race and I got 1st place!" What's your secret? Years ago, roadies would show up at Sea Otter and race beginner xc and blow away the field, now it's really fit/fast guys who race 1x a year and technically are beginner racers. I've stopped worrying about sandbaggers, and just try to beat guys in my category who I've been racing against for a decade or more. Good luck next Sunday!
    Every day above ground is a great day!

  31. #31
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    Yep, they are going to let me “upgrade” to Cat 2. I am going there Thursday to pick up my registration information, so I have been informed that I can change things there.

    I will be riding Menso DeJong’s old Santa Cruz Superlight (sort of a grey/silver colour). This bike won the Sea Otter twice with him at the helm, I will just be happy to get within the top 20, from the sounds of the Cat 1 sandbagging rumours around here.
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  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradmtb
    Leo, this is my 18th year racing xc, I race Sport Clydesdale or Sport age 50, and you beat me at NVDC by 21 minutes. If I'm being honest, I'm jealous when guys say "it was my first race and I got 1st place!" What's your secret? Years ago, roadies would show up at Sea Otter and race beginner xc and blow away the field, now it's really fit/fast guys who race 1x a year and technically are beginner racers. I've stopped worrying about sandbaggers, and just try to beat guys in my category who I've been racing against for a decade or more. Good luck next Sunday!
    Thanks for the compliments. Here is my only reasoning for my performance—my training rides in March, 96% of them having been ridden on a sub-50 pound bike with heavy 65mm wide rims:

    http://www.strava.com/komchallenge/l.../results/march
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  33. #33
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    Leo, I forgot to mention that up until last Sea Otter, I was riding Menso's old SC Blur LT. I still race it at Downieville. Menso convinced me to check out the SC Tallboy, I did, and now I've got a new XXL Tallboy to race next Sunday. It was a sweet ride at NVDC. He's one of the few xc racers taller than me (6'4")
    Every day above ground is a great day!

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    Leo, I checked out your strava March rides...that's nuts. How on earth can you do back to back to back 3-4 hour rides on a 40lb bike in the hills. 12-16 hour weeks vs. my 6-8 hours. So that's what it takes to podium...I think I'll stay mid-pack sport.
    Every day above ground is a great day!

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradmtb
    Leo, I checked out your strava March rides...that's nuts. How on earth can you do back to back to back 3-4 hour rides on a 40lb bike in the hills. 12-16 hour weeks vs. my 6-8 hours. So that's what it takes to podium...I think I'll stay mid-pack sport.
    Well, I’ve been unemployed for quite some time with nothing better to do while waiting for “recruiters” to call me back for interviews that have never happened. My goal for March was to ride every day, and to see if I could break 100,000 feet in a month, which I eventually managed. Several of those rides were done while hung over. I guess it turned out to not be all for nothing.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    Cat 1's who only race once a year? Wow. I wish I was that gifted!

    Also, JDM makes a good point, but some Cat 3's would probably struggle with the Cat 1 distances perhaps..
    As was pointed out, its racing USAC races once a year. Or even 3-4 USAC races a year. Why pay $75 for a license if you can get 3-4 one day licenses at $10 each. Most of the races around here aren't USAC, in fact when I do an almost full season, I think I hit 3 USAC races. But I'm not anywhere near Cat1 anyways. I benefit from those forced to sanbag in Cat2, and, so goes it. I'm not gonna get my panties in a bunch (as long as I beat my time from last year).

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk
    ...I would rather be midpack cat 1 than standing on a podium representing a cat I don't belong in.
    +1 to that man. I could still be racing Expert in my local series (non-USAC), but decided to cat up to the Elite/Pro Open Class because the one year I raced expert I landed on the podium or in the top 5 in every race I did. I could have stayed to win the series, but racing against my Pro friends is much more fun. Plus I'm used to mid-pack finishes after two seasons of 'cross...

    People who sandbag are lame and should be pubicly ridiculed at all possible moments.
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  38. #38
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    So, it sounds like riding a lot is a good training plan....or at least better than sitting on the couch all winter and trying to see how many nutter butters I could put in my mouth at one time....
    I'll be Cat 2 since they don't have the cat 3 SS anymore.....I'll be the guy pushing when all the other SSers are pedaling uphill.....pretty sure I'm not sandbagging
    Should be a really fun day though...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by rzims
    I'll be Cat 2 since they don't have the cat 3 SS anymore.....I'll be the guy pushing when all the other SSers are pedaling uphill.....pretty sure I'm not sandbagging
    Should be a really fun day though...
    I do the majority of my training rides on a roughly 47 pound bike with a 32x20 singlespeed setup. If it won’t make you stronger, it will drive you freakin’ nuts; I think I might be a little bit of both. But I am not crazy enough (yet) to race in the singlespeed category. You, sir, are truly nuts, and that is great!
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  40. #40
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    Wow, that was a fun race (except for all the lame flat smooth sections). I started the race 1 minute or so late, and had to catch up to the rest of the pack. I only managed 17th place, but then was happy to discover that there were 62 entries (Cat 2 40-42). http://www.seaotterclassic.com/racer...2011/XC125.pdf

    I guess that’s an OK finish for my second time ever racing. I am happy with having placed 17th after having started 1 minute behind the actual start.
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    I love reading all the cry baby comments about sandbagging. Here is a tip. Get faster and shut up. Those that cry are those usually that just missed the podium. Too bad someone was faster. Just for fun I googled each of the top guys in 4 classes close to me. Not one did a Cat 1 race and not one appeared in any cat 2 races last year. Guess what? These are guys that train hard and spend the year at Cat2. Some might not have the wins to upgrade or some might be racing first time mountain and are finishing out a season.

    A sandbagger is NOT someone that is faster then you which most you crying here apparently think. Let's see where these winners race next year. Cat2? Then yes, sandbagger. Cat1? Then all part of the cycle of racing.

    Looking at the top guys. Does anyone know one that cat'ed down from races? Does anyone know someone that has been winning year in and year out and not cat'ed up? Or are you all just guessing to bad mouth so it makes your place on the results feel better? Serious question.

  42. #42
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    Winning a cat 2 or cat 3 race is nice once or twice, when you finally achieve that goal after years of working your way up the standings and training hard for it. After that it's better to upgrade and race against some real competition. The USAC license is only $50, and with it you support bike racing in the USA, get some additional race accident insurance and they keep track of your performance in races. I'd say pay the $50 and upgade when your friends call you a sandbagger.
    Also known as Menso's dad.

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    The wife raced Cat 1 at Sea Otter this year. Her first USAC race, ever. They were not going to give her a Cat 1 license, so she petitioned, submitted her resume and was granted Cat 1 status. It's not that she would have minded racing Cat 2, but we travelled from a long way away and there were 3 big reasons for her to Cat up.

    1. Her race was on Friday and we could miss the big crowds and travel would be better.
    2. She didn't have to deal with the riff-raff in Cat 2 or 3 XC.
    3. It's where she belonged, period.

    If you belong in Cat 1, suck it up, petition, pay the extra fee or don't race it.

    She did not win, yet finished mid pack Cat 1.

  44. #44
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    Just curious...if you wanna miss the crowds and the "riff-raff" on your first race why even come and race at Sea Otter?
    Every day above ground is a great day!

  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by bradmtb
    Just curious...if you wanna miss the crowds and the "riff-raff" on your first race why even come and race at Sea Otter?
    Regardless, if Cat 1 was raced on Sunday afternoon she would have easily dealt with the crowds. It was a nice race for her. It was awesome weather and she did awesome in her 1st non-local race.

  46. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tupelo
    The wife raced Cat 1 at Sea Otter this year. Her first USAC race, ever. They were not going to give her a Cat 1 license, so she petitioned, submitted her resume and was granted Cat 1 status. It's not that she would have minded racing Cat 2, but we travelled from a long way away and there were 3 big reasons for her to Cat up.

    1. Her race was on Friday and we could miss the big crowds and travel would be better.
    2. She didn't have to deal with the riff-raff in Cat 2 or 3 XC.
    3. It's where she belonged, period.

    If you belong in Cat 1, suck it up, petition, pay the extra fee or don't race it.

    She did not win, yet finished mid pack Cat 1.
    thumbs up.

    Q

  47. #47
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    Cat 3 Times

    I raced two years ago at SOC and scored an eighth place finish in Cat 3, it was my first race. It was a 1:56. Did they change the course over the past two years to have someone score a 1:16???? Or did the guys in Cat 3 just all of sudden start posting recording times while i've been out of racing for awhile? Interested to see if the course has gotten easier for Cat 3 guys and girls.

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by quicklaps
    yah really.... Cat 2 is a 20 mile loop and Cat 1 is 40... ouch. 40 miles. No wonder the Cat 2 races are filled with sandbaggers, they dont want to do a 40 mile race!.... I race Expert in a local series and some other stuff and the races are typically 25-28 miles or so...

    Q
    What if you are better at distance? Personally I like a longer race, the attrition gives a rider who trains and is persistent a valid chance of being on the podium. These one day wonders are not real racers. I think all categories should race the same course (cept the pros) and then have the smaller age groups..more medals. To be honest 14 miles is like a sprint! 25 plus now you are talking....mtbxc. What do y'all think?

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryanc104
    I raced two years ago at SOC and scored an eighth place finish in Cat 3, it was my first race. It was a 1:56. Did they change the course over the past two years to have someone score a 1:16???? Or did the guys in Cat 3 just all of sudden start posting recording times while i've been out of racing for awhile? Interested to see if the course has gotten easier for Cat 3 guys and girls.
    yes changed. shorter.

    Q

  50. #50
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    I came in 29th of 41 in my category. Pretty sure there were 28 sandbaggers in the age group, including that grrrah guy.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebInt
    I love reading all the cry baby comments about sandbagging. Here is a tip. Get faster and shut up. Those that cry are those usually that just missed the podium. Too bad someone was faster. Just for fun I googled each of the top guys in 4 classes close to me. Not one did a Cat 1 race and not one appeared in any cat 2 races last year. Guess what? These are guys that train hard and spend the year at Cat2. Some might not have the wins to upgrade or some might be racing first time mountain and are finishing out a season.

    A sandbagger is NOT someone that is faster then you which most you crying here apparently think. Let's see where these winners race next year. Cat2? Then yes, sandbagger. Cat1? Then all part of the cycle of racing.

    Looking at the top guys. Does anyone know one that cat'ed down from races? Does anyone know someone that has been winning year in and year out and not cat'ed up? Or are you all just guessing to bad mouth so it makes your place on the results feel better? Serious question.
    I can agree, yet I can disagree. If you go into a race knowing you are racing with people who are not at your level and using a license to hide behind saying ohh well I don't have a license, you are a sandbagger. On the other hand if you are just putting your time in to get your upgrade then no your not a sandbagger. I have got comments this year that I am sandbagging, but honestly this being my first year racing I think Cat2 is exactly where I need to be. It helps me get familiar with the courses, it helps me to get comfortable with racing strategy, and it plain out just helps fitness.
    I lost a podium spot by 3 sec. at Sea Otter this year which would have been really cool instead I got 4th. The three who beat me all race Pro/Cat1 road races. How do I know this, because they told me after while talking. Is that sandbagging? Here is my take... If they are honestly trying to make a transition to mountain biking then hey go for it. I am sure if they petitioned they would be granted a Cat1 mountain license, but hey I understand wanting to work your way up. The problem I have is that I will bet not one of them does another mountain bike race this year. They were at the Sea Otter for their road event and just decided to do the XC race. Not one of them used there UCI License number to keep track of points so I know they could care less about that.
    My bottom line however, am I mad I lost.. yeah,do I think it's fair... no not really, am I mad at them... no not at all. I race because I want to get faster and push myself so whether I race faster people now or in a year from now it's good to see where you sit.

    Chris

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    /\ /\ /\ /\
    Pot meet Kettle. 3 seconds off from CAT 1 road racers? You're a sandbagger, regardless how long you've been racing. Perhaps it was those guys' first XC race, so they're less of sandbaggers than you.
    May the air be filled with tires!

  53. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaster1200
    /\ /\ /\ /\
    Pot meet Kettle. 3 seconds off from CAT 1 road racers? You're a sandbagger, regardless how long you've been racing. Perhaps it was those guys' first XC race, so they're less of sandbaggers than you.
    If you would have read and understood what I said, you would see that I said if they were trying to make a move over to racing mountain bikes I completely understand having to put your races in to qualify for your Cat1 upgrade, but none of them used their license numbers to keep track so to me that says they could care less and did it because they were there. As for me being a sandbagger to each his own I guess. I have only been riding for 2 years now and this is my first year racing, I could have started in Cat3 and said hey well I am a newb to racing which would have been sandbagging for sure. Instead I put myself in Cat2 which allows me to get races under my belt and help get me Cat1 eligible. Now if I am still racing Cat2 next year please feel free to call me a sandbagger. Ill even ride around with tow lines off my seat to help people on climbs.

    Chris

  54. #54
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    If the cat 2 racer has been dominating the previous season at their local races then they should cat up. simple. same applies for cat 3 needing to go cat 2.

    considering that most racers are from the west and have already began their season bec. the weather is great out here, they should know.

    This is what I have done.

    I earned a top 5 or better in nearly every age group at s.o.c and have been doing fairly well in my so cal series. I will cat up next year.

    I want to measure my abilities/fitness with better riders. Keep it simple.

    Oh...and I was told that the guy who won my field is a local fast cat 3 roadie with enough points to go cat 2 road. Not sure if the is accurate or not...just what I was told.. If this is true, then he had the fitness of cat 1, but chose to race cat 2.

  55. #55
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    I raced back in the mid 90's for 3 years. One season of Beginner then the rest in Sport. I came in top 10-15 in Sport back in the day.

    Put down bikes for 11 years and started to ride a lot. I waited almost a year to start racing to begin the season fresh. Before the season I told myself I would race one season as a cat 3 and no matter what move to cat 2 after the 8 race season. I came in 2nd in the first race then 5 straight firsts and a 14th in the last race because of a flat ( I was leading when I flatted). I didn't win the series because I didn't understand how the trail work for a first place points thing worked even though I had a perfect record 5 out of the 8 races counted. Was I sandbagging, maybe but I was within the stated rules.

    One day after the last race I upgraded myself to Cat2.

  56. #56
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    You know if you are a sandbagger.............I know, those prizes are so valuable

  57. #57
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    I haven't read all of the posts in this thread. So, someone might have already commented about what I'm going to say. I started racing DH years ago in Port Angeles, WA. They have different DH courses for the Pro/CAT1 riders which are harder, steeper, with jumps/drops. The CAT2/3 racers course was significantly easier from a DH perspective. I tried really hard to podium in CAT2 so I could race in the 'much more fun and challenging' Pro/CAT1 race course. I haven't made the podium in CAT1 yet, but I enjoy the course much more with my USAC license DH CAT1 designation. Not sure if SOC has different courses for the CATEGORIES? If they did...It might encourage people to move up in CAT if they're a better rider.

  58. #58
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    Was the cat 2 course longer than the cat 3?
    There are a lot of sand baggers at Sea Otter -

  59. #59
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    There is only one DH course at Sea Otter, everyone races it and its a Cat 2/3 course, every jump is pretty much rollable and only a handful of rocks if any. As for the XC courses I have no idea.
    Last edited by Scrub; 04-15-2012 at 12:01 PM.
    You're not entitled to anything until you work hard and earn it. CMQ

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by surfstar1 View Post
    I was just checking results from last year and this guy won Cat 3, 40 - 44 and had a better time than the winner of the Cat 2, 40 - 44.

    We should call out all of these sandbaggers.
    Sorry, I did not realize you were talking about the DH - it is one course.
    The XC is different. The first time I did beginner it was the same as sport, the next year they changed it and it ticked me off!
    Last year the cat 32 was 16 miles and about 2450 climbing. I did it and can send my GPS.
    This year and last year the sport is 20 miles and about 3550 elevation - so the cat 2 is four miles longer and 1000 more feet of climbing for XC.

    Good luck everybody!

  61. #61
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    Aaaaahhhh!!!

    I signed up for Cat 2 XC to motivate myself over the winter. Didn't really work. I'm in better shape than last year, but NOT READY. Looks like 97th place again. Still stoked to be going though.
    Billy

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    ... Shredtopia!

  62. #62
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    Heh... I'm reverse sandbagging. What is that, posing?

    I do the CAT2 Singlespeed race because 1) it's on Sunday. 2) the race is longer.

    I fully expect to end up in the bottom 20%, but that's okay.

  63. #63
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    For guys like me this is my first time ever racing, so when I come last in CAT 2 dont make fun of me and say i was reverse sand bagging ok guys

    SIDE note, For guys that are racing the very first time, how do they know where they stack up, now for guys who are racing all the time this is a different story.

    PS dont heckle the slow guy in CAT 2 DH this year.

  64. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Heh... I'm reverse sandbagging. What is that, posing?

    I do the CAT2 Singlespeed race because 1) it's on Sunday. 2) the race is longer.

    I fully expect to end up in the bottom 20%, but that's okay.
    i'll be here with you next year, for my first race ever I wanted to try it with gears.
    To love me is to rep me, world domination is eminent/imminent/immanent.

  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Heh... I'm reverse sandbagging. What is that, posing?

    I do the CAT2 Singlespeed race because 1) it's on Sunday. 2) the race is longer.

    I fully expect to end up in the bottom 20%, but that's okay.
    Same here. But more correctly, you and I were right around at the bottom 30% mark. Not bad!

    This will be my fourth (or fifth?) Sea Otter. I've always raced Cat 2 singlespeed because I am clearly not a beginner and I am not even close to the top of Cat 2. My goal is to finish better every year and I've been succeeding on that.

    Ali

  66. #66
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    It would be nice if Sea Otter would take a more proactive stance on this. I just finished fourth this year and saw that the guy who finished 2nd finished 3rd last year in the same Cat 3 category. If you podium you should move up.

  67. #67
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    well, first, congrats on taking 4th - and second, I agree! The rider who took first last year in my category is racing it again this year? First! - so if she finishes first tomorrow, she has two first place for the exact same course and Cat 2? - Certainly if you take 1st at podium, you should move up! I am not having any expectations with so many sand baggers - Try and just ride fast and have FUN!
    thanks for posting - and I am with you 100%%!!

  68. #68
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    You cannot compare the CAT3 times with the CAT2 times. Different course for CAT2 (Longer and more elevation/climbing) Of course the CAT3 times would look faster with a shorter/easier course.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by d-bug View Post
    I came in 29th of 41 in my category. Pretty sure there were 28 sandbaggers in the age group, including that grrrah guy.
    My first ever race was SOC and I went ahead and entered Cat 3 Clydedale XC and I thought I did pretty well, right off the line there was a group of 7 sandbaggers that all lined up single file and were gone into the fog and I never saw them again! I even passed all of the 60+ men and most of the 55-59 men. Climbing out skyline I got passed by a really cool dude name John on a single speed 29er (also in my Clydesdale class) and that is where we finished! I was stoked to get 9th of 44 riders...considering 5 of my class were mainly concerned with what toppings would be on the pizza at the feed station and what desert was to be served, I knew I would place top 39 for sure! So 9th was awesome!

    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Heh... I'm reverse sandbagging. What is that, posing?

    I do the CAT2 Singlespeed race because 1) it's on Sunday. 2) the race is longer.

    I fully expect to end up in the bottom 20%, but that's okay.
    The aforementioned John guy that passed me on skyline has my total respect, but I did feel like a slowpoke being passed by a single speed!

    -------------

    Bottom line with this entire thread is, everyone has a sand bagger or six in their class at SOC or any other race! I have friends in Cat 2 women, Cat 1 and Pro Men and they all know it's what happens. Instead of *****ing and complaining, you train harder and get faster and try to beat those sand baggers and be the better rider!

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    damn sandwiches

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockStarRider View Post
    You cannot compare the CAT3 times with the CAT2 times. Different course for CAT2 (Longer and more elevation/climbing) Of course the CAT3 times would look faster with a shorter/easier course.
    According to my GPS, the section that the cat 3 riders didn't have to ride was about 5.0 miles and 650ft of gain. It took me 22 minutes to complete on my first lap of 2.

  72. #72
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    I went to Sea Otter for the road races and won my crit. I decided very late to sign up for a cyclocross race. It was to be my first cyclocross race ever. I had never practiced dismounts at speed. I had never shouldered a bike prior to this race. And it was to be my second race of the day on Saturday. I picked a beginner cat with few others riders in it. 30 minute race. I had no idea what to expect.

    Does this sound like sandbagging?

  73. #73
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    Biggest problem with Cat 2 sandbaggers is that it's not their fault. Cat 2 is the highest class you can race if you don't have a yearly license. USAC should make non licensed riders race an open class versus selling them a 1 day license and limiting them to Cat2 or lower. Just my take.

    As for taking a podium then racing the same class the following year. I agree as well. You podium, you move up.

  74. #74
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    Sandbagging and winning in cat 2/3 is like people who drive huge lifted trucks, they think they are cool but don't realize everyone just thinks they are a tool.
    "Do not touch the trim"

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivet View Post
    Sandbagging and winning in cat 2/3 is like people who drive huge lifted trucks, they think they are cool but don't realize everyone just thinks they are a tool.
    I disagree. Sometimes it's all about appearance.

    As I said earlier in this thread, I won my crit (I'm cat 3 now). A friend tagged me in the podium picture. People asked in the comments, "Wow, are you going professional?" or "I had no idea you were a champion!"

    Granted, these are facebook friends who don't ride bikes. But they think I won the entire thing. I responded with, "Haha, no, I'm nowhere near the level of the pros." Friends probably took this as false modesty.

    Then there's the swag. Along with two yellow sea otter jerseys, I left with about $500 worth of merchandise.


    Now if everyone sandbags, the competition is just that much more intense.


    All said, it's become watered down. There were about 600 awards ceremonies. That's 600 yellow jerseys.

  76. #76
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    Sandbaggers can rationalize anything

    I have a buddy who had done this one particular race two or three years previously. This year he entered it in the Beginner category because some "medical" issue had kept him off the bike for six months and he "had gained a lot of weight" and was "more out of shape than than he had ever been before."

    What a tool.

    He got second place. The other sandbagger had beaten him by 30 seconds and the two of them beat the rest of the field by a couple of minutes.

    When I called him a tool after the race and ridiculed him in front of other people, he got really pissed. He told me I didn't understand. (Because the only race I've ever done in my life, I entered in Cat 3 and ended up finishing mid-pack, apparently).

    I told him that what I did understand is that he and his other Tool friend had cheated three true beginners from having a real competition and feeling good about getting on the podium in their first race.

    He said it would "motivate them to try harder next year," and therefore he had done a good thing.

    What a tool.
    "You'll thank me when it's all said and done"

  77. #77
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    Yeah, but a lot of Pro's in non USA Cycling race CAT 2.

    One year I raced Sea Otter and I Googled 1st, 2nd and 3rd and they were all pros outside of USA Cycling.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
    Yeah, but a lot of Pro's in non USA Cycling race CAT 2.

    One year I raced Sea Otter and I Googled 1st, 2nd and 3rd and they were all pros outside of USA Cycling.
    Yep, I did the same thing back in both 2011 and 2012 and was shocked. Why do these “pros” act like douchebags??? I don’t understand the logic.
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  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leopold Porkstacker View Post
    Yep, I did the same thing back in both 2011 and 2012 and was shocked. Why do these “pros” act like douchebags??? I don’t understand the logic.
    You need to understand that the vast majority of pro bike racers are narcissists bordering on being true sociopaths. In other words, they have 10,000-pound glass egos, low self-esteem that drives competitive behavior, and a low-degree of empathy for other human beings (if they have any empathy at all). To them, winning a race—even if it means obliterating the local yokels by racing in lower categories due to some self-justified reasoning—becomes all important. In other words, there is no logic.
    "You'll thank me when it's all said and done"

  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    You need to understand that the vast majority of pro bike racers are narcissists bordering on being true sociopaths. In other words, they have 10,000-pound glass egos, low self-esteem that drives competitive behavior, and a low-degree of empathy for other human beings (if they have any empathy at all). To them, winning a race—even if it means obliterating the local yokels by racing in lower categories due to some self-justified reasoning—becomes all important. In other words, there is no logic.
    Jealous?

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy View Post
    Yeah, but a lot of Pro's in non USA Cycling race CAT 2.

    One year I raced Sea Otter and I Googled 1st, 2nd and 3rd and they were all pros outside of USA Cycling.
    I spoke with a few guys who blamed the lack of reciprocity between OBRA and USAC. Does this make sense or is MTB self-selecting?

  82. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenu View Post
    Jealous?
    Actually, not at all.
    "You'll thank me when it's all said and done"

  83. #83
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    Well, given your in-depth analysis into the psyche of people you've never met and the fact that as a non-racer you're unaffected by sandbaggers, how do you explain your angry rants?

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenu View Post
    Well, given your in-depth analysis into the psyche of people you've never met and the fact that as a non-racer you're unaffected by sandbaggers, how do you explain your angry rants?
    I do know many of them and I don't think my post was angry, or at least it wasn't supposed to be.
    "You'll thank me when it's all said and done"

  85. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    I do know many of them and I don't think my post was angry, or at least it wasn't supposed to be.
    OK, let's pretend that you do know many of "the vast majority of pro racers" well enough to apply your insults and over the top dime store psychology, and let's substitute passionate for angry.

    Given that you don't even race, why are you so worked by sandbagging?

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenu View Post
    Given that you don't even race, why are you so worked by sandbagging?
    I do race sometimes. Sometimes I even make the podium. I dislike sandbagging because it's unethical and cheats beginners or the joe-citizen category out of a positive racing experience.

    I guess I'm inclined to ask you why you like sandbagging?

    No need for you to answer, it's rhetorical.
    "You'll thank me when it's all said and done"

  87. #87
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    Oh you race? Earlier in the thread you said that you had only raced once and finished mid pack. It still doesn't really explain your rant. Since you claim to know so many pros personally, can you name three you've met personally who fit your description?
    Quote Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    narcissists bordering on being true sociopaths. In other words, they have 10,000-pound glass egos, low self-esteem that drives competitive behavior, and a low-degree of empathy for other human beings (if they have any empathy at all).
    (Lance Armstrong doesn't count.)

    Thanks for your passive-aggressive rhetorical question. However, my question is not rhetorical. I'd like for you to back up what you said.

  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenu View Post
    Oh you race? Earlier in the thread you said that you had only raced once and finished mid pack. It still doesn't really explain your rant. Since you claim to know so many pros personally, can you name three you've met personally who fit your description? (Lance Armstrong doesn't count.)

    Thanks for your passive-aggressive rhetorical question. However, my question is not rhetorical. I'd like for you to back up what you said.
    Now who seems angry?

    Oh, and I guess if you find my question passive aggressive, I'd encourage you to answer it. I'd be interested to understand why you support sandbagging.
    "You'll thank me when it's all said and done"

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    Now who seems angry?
    It's still you.
    Oh, and I guess if you find my question passive aggressive, I'd encourage you to answer it. I'd be interested to understand why you support sandbagging.
    There are a few ways for me to respond to this. First, it's unjustified to say that I support sandbagging or that I like it. I can point out that you're being ridiculous with your dime store psychology without taking an opposite position.

    Next, your angry rants (yes, the things you said are angry) about people you don't know, people racing bicycles, say a lot more about you than they do about the guys racing bicycles. Reread what you said in this thread. Or read it to someone who doesn't ride bikes and ask them what they think. But do it without telling them that you wrote the words. I bet you would feel embarrassed if you heard an honest response.

    Finally, I'll accept your non-answers and the fact that you have repeatedly tried to make this about me as your defeat. You painted yourself in the corner and now you're lashing out. OK. I guess you're angry and frustrated because you're unable to have a positive race experience with all the narcissist sandbaggers out there; you feel cheated and robbed. I suggest you relax and race for fun, even if you're slow and mid-pack. Or maybe you should stay away from racing if these guys get under your skin so easily.

    On that note, I'll go ahead and unsubscribe from this thread.

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenu View Post
    It's still you.
    There are a few ways for me to respond to this. First, it's unjustified to say that I support sandbagging or that I like it. I can point out that you're being ridiculous with your dime store psychology without taking an opposite position.

    Next, your angry rants (yes, the things you said are angry) about people you don't know, people racing bicycles, say a lot more about you than they do about the guys racing bicycles. Reread what you said in this thread. Or read it to someone who doesn't ride bikes and ask them what they think. But do it without telling them that you wrote the words. I bet you would feel embarrassed if you heard an honest response.

    Finally, I'll accept your non-answers and the fact that you have repeatedly tried to make this about me as your defeat. You painted yourself in the corner and now you're lashing out. OK. I guess you're angry and frustrated because you're unable to have a positive race experience with all the narcissist sandbaggers out there; you feel cheated and robbed. I suggest you relax and race for fun, even if you're slow and mid-pack. Or maybe you should stay away from racing if these guys get under your skin so easily.

    On that note, I'll go ahead and unsubscribe from this thread.
    It started with narcissistic personalities...and now it ends with it. Poetic justice. Thank you.
    "You'll thank me when it's all said and done"

  91. #91
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    You need to understand that the vast majority of pro bike racers are narcissists bordering on being true sociopaths. In other words, they have 10,000-pound glass egos, low self-esteem that drives competitive behavior, and a low-degree of empathy for other human beings (if they have any empathy at all). To them, winning a race—even if it means obliterating the local yokels by racing in lower categories due to some self-justified reasoning—becomes all important. In other words, there is no logic.
    Got generalization?

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Got generalization?
    Talk to a sports psychologist. A real one, preferably one who deals with professional cyclists, and then come back here and report on your findings. Thank you.

  93. #93
    mnoutain bkie rdier
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    Talk to a sports psychologist. A real one, preferably one who deals with professional cyclists, and then come back here and report on your findings. Thank you.
    I neg repped you for your insulting generalization of elite level cyclists. It seemed personal.. like someone mentioned, you just come off as jealous.

    Do tell.. What is your background that has granted you access to so many elite leveled cyclists' personalities?

    In case you forgot, these are your words below:

    "You need to understand that the vast majority of pro bike racers are narcissists bordering on being true sociopaths. In other words, they have 10,000-pound glass egos, low self-esteem that drives competitive behavior, and a low-degree of empathy for other human beings (if they have any empathy at all). To them, winning a race—even if it means obliterating the local yokels by racing in lower categories due to some self-justified reasoning—becomes all important. In other words, there is no logic."

  94. #94
    arrogant sandbagger
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blister Butt View Post
    Sometimes I even make the podium.
    I doubt it.

    lol

  95. #95
    arrogant sandbagger
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    An angry person gave me negative rep for what I said in this thread. Maybe he blames his inability to have a "positive race experience" on me. I don't know. But I must have hurt his feelings. His comment:

    "Aren't you brave with 58 total posts? I bet all your podiums are sandbags"

    I'm not sure what post count has to do with bravery.

    In response to the second part, I did podium four times at Sea Otter. Three of them were on the road, where it is impossible to sandbag due to USAC's mandatory upgrade policies. So no, my top finishes have not come from sandbagging. Sorry. My podiums come from stomping on the pedals.

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  96. #96
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    This is an interesting thread to me. Sea Otter was my third race ever on any kind of bike, my first two were CCCX races earlier this year to get ready for last weekend. My primary sport is actually sailing (specifically Laser sailing) and I used to ride a bike to stay fit for that (though now I'm getting into the XC racing, its definitely both challenging and fun).

    Anyway, the point is that in Laser regattas where the fleets get split, the mantra is "I'd rather be last in the gold fleet than first in the silver fleet", the idea being that its more fun to sail against the best sailors than in the forgotten fleet. So I don't really follow the idea of "sandbagging" down as a better chance to get on the podium - I'd think being in the Cat I group would get more respect, even if not on the podium, than being in Cat II.

    On the other hand... in looking over the results, in my group (Cat II 55-59) there were 36 riders while in the same Cat I group there were 24 and in Cat II there were 42. I guess if you wanted to race against the biggest field you would want to be in Cat III, if you wanted a big field and more challenge you'd go Cat II (for over 50 the Cat I and Cat II course was the same).

    My goals for this year were simple: a) be challenged (hence enter Cat II), b) finish, c) don't crash (see (b)), d) don't be last and e) finish under 2 hours. All were achieved. In looking at the Cat I results, I see that I could have done that there too, so my new goal for this year is to get into Cat I for next year's Sea Otter!

  97. #97
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    Sea otter was my first race in 15 years. I decided to register on Saturday and it was a great test of my fitness or lack there of. I raced Cat 3 and was happy to finish mid pack. Call me naive, but I look at the winning times as bench mark for training. I have year to see if I can get into that kind of shape given the amount of time I have to give

    This is supposed to be fun.. If I start to get worried about whether someone is sandbagging my race then I need to find a new sport.. I like winning just as much as the next guy and sure there should be a better system in place to ensure that there aren't any "European Pros" in a cat 2 race, but I don't lose sleep over it.

    Not to take away from Xenu's achievements or anyone else who made the podium, Congratulations by the way.. But I can buy my own camel bak and cliff bars.

  98. #98
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    I went to SOC and raced XC. I did see sandbaggers and it does disappoint me that people do that. I raced to challenge myself. I started riding a year ago and did it to lose weight and have fun. I lost weight, have fun and got my a$$ haned to me in Cat3. 6 miles wasn't a problem it was the 2800-2900 ft of climbing and doing the coastal road ride the day before.
    But I did have a lot of fun.
    Vincit qui patitur
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  99. #99
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    Sea Otter Sandbaggers

    First year at SOC and raced CAT3 30-34 group. I placed 23rd of 56. I did damn near all of my passing on the downhills which can probably be attributed to my Mx background. My plan is to do CAT3 again next year and I'll hopefully be fit enough to dice it up with the "sandbaggers". If I can get inside top ten then ill move to C2. Sandbaggers are in most sports...who cares. If someone wins a 16 mile XC event by 2 minutes, or even 5 minutes I'm fine with that, as that's a goalqqp....it's the people that blow out the competition that should be moved up. I'll tell you someone though, if be more stoked to finish top 20 in C2 than to finish top 5 in C3!

  100. #100
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    Re: Sea Otter Sandbaggers

    I also raced cat 3 XC 30-34. It was my first time ever racing. I did some demo rides on Friday and a ride in SC on Saturday. I had never raced before and didn't know how I would feel after 2 days of riding, so I didn't think cat 2 was appropriate. After finishing 3rd I now know I should have been in cat 2 and will be next time.

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