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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Just to be clear.. a sandbagger is not someone who ends up on the podium. These are guys with more talent. Simple.

    A sandbagger has numerous top 5 finishes (in whatever) category, yet do not cat-up. These guys are tools. Simple.

    For all of you calling folks "sandbaggers", I hope you did your research.
    agree 100%

    Q

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenu View Post
    Norcal tested 17 athletes with 17 negatives last season. In the wake of Armstrong that is not enough; NCNCA increased the budget and will test more athletes in 2013. I think this is a fine decision so long as it doesn't rob funding from other areas of cycling, like junior development.

    Budget is a real concern. You say that the tests are cheap. Others say it is cost-prohibitive. Another problem is the ineffectiveness of tests -- some drugs are undetectable and we all know that Armstrong passed hundreds of tests. If tests are ineffective and expensive then testing is a waste of resources.

    But then what do we do with a positive test for the ADHD drug Ritalin? Under USADA's rules an athlete without a TUE faces suspension even if the medications are legally prescribed. And the TUE process is lengthy and difficult. And what of recreational pot smokers who do not have prescriptions or TUEs? Or a downhill champion who smokes pot?

    Drug testing is a whole new can of worms.

    Ultimately I'm with you. If the costs were low enough I would petition for everyone to pee in the cup at least once or twice a year.
    All good points. Simple tests are cheap and probably simple to pass.... and as far as rec use of pot is concerned... a Professional is a Professional and should be able to pass all drug tests regardless of "preformance enhancing" or not... just sayin..

    Q

  3. #128
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    Is easy train more you win, and catup. Then youŽll get the satisfaction of getting 20th or 30th in your new category.

  4. #129
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    I prefer to use PED and race beginner!

  5. #130
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    As a clyde I'd get all bent about the sandbaggers who weighed no more than 205 I'd have to race. But once the race started the pack would sort itself out, I'd have a fantastic time racing with those around me, clearly more evenly matched competitors.I've had some great scraps with another slower, bigger racers. At Boggs one year me and this guy raced the whole time. I flatted and he waited in the end I got him fair and square. I might not have won anything, but I beat THAT GUY! The battles along the courses have always been spirited, fun and what I enjoy about racing.
    Keep pedaling no matter what

  6. #131
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    Will the people in Men's XC Cat 3 be faster than Collegiate Men's C due to more sandbagging?

    Also, not relevant to this thread, but I don't want to start a new one, are collegiate USAC licenses valid for Sea Otter?

  7. #132
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    Newbie question, please forgive the total ignorance: I've never raced, but why--other than age brackets--have categories at all? Or if you must have them, why not Pro and Amateur...Pros being anyone with a sponsor, no matter how small.

    Is the only reason to have all these categories to increase the chance of "feel good" awards and to thereby increase participation/profit? I do compete in another sport and it's exactly how I suggested above, comps are either no-category or Pro/Am. It works out fine and everyone understands that if you want to win you have to put in the time and effort to get there.

    What am I missing?

  8. #133
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    It's hard to make a one size fits all race. If everyone raced together, it becomes very difficult to do multi-lap races with the fast people lapping a bunch of slow people. The slower people probably wouldn't enjoy racing the same distance the experts could crank out. Likewise, the experts aren't going to show up for a half hour race, which the beginners will be churning through for well over an hour.

    Keep in mind the speed potential. The difference in mph between fast and slow runners isn't huge. That isn't the case on a bike.

  9. #134
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    Another year of Sea Otter, another year of sandbagging. The funniest irony is that so many racers totally and blatantly sandbag yet still can not make the podium. Because the truth is, no matter how big a sandbagger you may be, there will almost always be an even more shameless sandbagger than you. You might as well race your normal category and finish mid-pac rather than cat down and finish 2 places ahead of mid-pac.

    Check out some of the Cat 3 times. So many finishers were only a few minutes slower than the lap times for world class pro riders like Nino Schurter.
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  10. #135
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    Sandbagging is very common in just about any sport with elective competitive categories. It's rampant in tennis as well, for example.

    One "exception" is pickup basketball. Usually, the best players want to compete against the best players; the intermediates want to compete against intermediates and beginners against beginners.

    Very rarely do you see outstanding basketball players wanting to beat up on newbies or even intermediates.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Another year of Sea Otter, another year of sandbagging. The funniest irony is that so many racers totally and blatantly sandbag yet still can not make the podium. Because the truth is, no matter how big a sandbagger you may be, there will almost always be an even more shameless sandbagger than you. You might as well race your normal category and finish mid-pac rather than cat down and finish 2 places ahead of mid-pac.
    So, anyone who finishes on the podium is, by definition, a sandbagger?

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Game_Throne View Post
    Sandbagging is very common in just about any sport with elective competitive categories. It's rampant in tennis as well, for example.

    One "exception" is pickup basketball. Usually, the best players want to compete against the best players; the intermediates want to compete against intermediates and beginners against beginners.

    Very rarely do you see outstanding basketball players wanting to beat up on newbies or even intermediates.
    Game/team sport vs racing.

    I always like racing as more of a fundamental sport that is basic with out need for a lot of rules. Ever try to explain American football to someone out of the country?

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    So, anyone who finishes on the podium is, by definition, a sandbagger?
    You can usually tell by their times, bike and kit.
    Like someone else posted check their times vs the next cat up.
    When I went a couple years ago there was even someone that short cutted the course. Didn't matter to me I went for the fun of it as well as a great vacation from AZ.
    Vincit qui patitur
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  14. #139
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    I'm not too worried about the pointy end of the race. Just trying not to get lapped on my first lap.

  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by NordieBoy View Post
    So, anyone who finishes on the podium is, by definition, a sandbagger?
    That seems to be the way many around here would have you believe. Sounds like if you are on the podium in Cat2 or Cat3 you will be labeled a sandbagger. I agree that times should be assessed before labeling and agree the the podium in a lower Cat should never be within the podium of a better Cat. Ideally I would think that the winner/podium of a lower Cat would be at or below middle times of the better Cat.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by owtdorz View Post
    You can usually tell by their times, bike and kit.
    Like someone else posted check their times vs the next cat up.
    I disagee with the first statement.
    There are a lot of people who have the $$$$$ for full on Carbon $10K race bikes and the gear to go with it but dont ride too often and are not worthy of being in a Cat 1 race.

    Completely agree on comparing times with next Cat up.

  17. #142
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    Just looked at the results and compared my mid-pack Cat 2 48-49 finish with the Cat 3. You add the time for the Cat 2 extension and the winners are finishing mid-pack in Cat 2 which I think is fair. Though I did recognize a Cat 3 podium finisher from my local race who rides Cat 2. guess he drops down a class for the big races?

    I podiumed Cat 3 many years ago and moved up since that is the right thing to do. and i take my lumps and train harder. If you podium, you move up, simple as that. SOC should call out any rider that repeats podium unless Cat 1 of course.

  18. #143
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    The simple solution:

    Everybody races. No categories.

    1) Use natural breaks analysis to give out a pre-determined number of awards.

    Or...

    2) Break the finishing times down to categories by standard deviation.

    Group 1 podium = the 3 fastest times.

    Group 2 podium = the 3 fastest times at 0.5 or 1 std dev.

    Group 3 podium = the 3 fastest times at 1.5 or 2 std dev.



    There are many more examples.


    This way you can't sandbag, and you can still give out lots of awards for non-top tier riders, on a scale based on the entire group of entries.

    Then you will tend to race the group of riders that you are naturally, consistently encountering during the race.


    To solve the fast riders lapping slow riders issue. Have categories, as they do now, but only to sort out the riders into general groups. These categories have no bearing on finishing or podiums, because the podiums spots are based on the distribution/statistical distribution of the times of all of the racers (or just a group of the top racers, if you want to get even more technical about it).


    I know it doesn't sound sexy. But it would make sandbagging useless, and would increase the personal races between competitors who consistently encounter each other during the race.




    And really, it is a lot simpler to implement that it sounds here. Very basic if you passed grade 7 math (ie. have seen a histogram).





    FWIW. Sandbaggers are really just overinflated ego's with small penis syndrome.

  19. #144
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    Simple question: Why would someone cat down for a particular race? They race in a higher cat for the whole year, then cat down, why?
    Consciousness, that annoying time between bike rides.

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lopaka View Post
    Simple question: Why would someone cat down for a particular race? They race in a higher cat for the whole year, then cat down, why?
    There is really no good reason other than once one person does it everyone else needs to do it to stay "competitive"

  21. #146
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    At the start line of Cat 3:

    Legs shaved? move to cat 2, right then and there.

    Something colored in your water bottle? cat 2 NOW.

    Anything on the bike that has a long thread going on "weight-weenies.com"? cat 1.

    Matching Chris King hubs, headset, and salt/pepper shakers? Just go on the Fondo and die already.

  22. #147
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    While standing inline for Cat2 DH practice (my first "dh" race. Placed 28th, would have been top 10 in Cat3), I heard multiple people make comments about how they should have been in Cat1, but didn't want to pay for an annual license. These are the same guys with sponsored custom kits with their name on them...and during practice on race day could be found jumping/cutting on the course further down rather than waiting.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by KrisRayner View Post
    I heard multiple people make comments about how they should have been in Cat1, but didn't want to pay for an annual license.
    I have never raced but did overhear almost the same exact comment.

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