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  1. #1
    ballbuster
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    New USAC rules. Must buy $70 license to race Sea Otter? No more day licenses for CAT2

    I just saw that USAC no longer issues one day licenses for CAT2 or CAT1 races. I've been racing CAT2 for years, just because I fee that CAT3 should be left to new racers. Believe me, I never finish even in the top 50% of CAT2 Singlespeed anyway.

    I enter one race a year.... Sea Otter Classic CAT2 Singlespeed. Now the requirement is that I buy an annual USAC racing license to the tune of $70 so I can race CAT2. Great.

    Oh, there is also a rule where if you raced CAT2, you can't go back and race CAT3, so the CAT3 exception doesn't apply here.

    I have a better idea. Howzabout I get a refund on my Sea Otter entry fee, and they get nothing? What a F'ed up rule... greedy bastards!!!

  2. #2
    Master of '80s BMX tricks
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    Upset

    here's the article Pimpy's referring to.

    I emailed frosty@seaotterclassic.com to ask for confirmation of the rules change and to find out when racers will be notified.

    I also asked instructions on canceling my race entry, festival entry and camping plans for that weekend. I'd recommend anyone else that WAS planning or racing at Sea Otter to do the same.

  3. #3
    mtb'er
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    Good luck getting your $ back from Frosty The Clown.

  4. #4
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by Empty_Beer View Post
    Good luck getting your $ back from Frosty The Clown.
    Glad I paid with a credit card. I'll cancel the payment and pull the rug out from under him. I mean, I really do want to race. We have to be able to find a middle ground here. I also bought two XL campsites in E-Campground. I'll yank those too, and tell them exactly why.

  5. #5
    Master of '80s BMX tricks
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    Glad I paid with a credit card... I'll yank those too, and tell them exactly why.
    i don't see this being a problem for Visa to reverse this one.
    I agreed to pay $55 to do a certain activity. i did NOT agree to pay another $70 on top of that. bait & switch, inability to deliver services due to other feees, cancelled with plenty advance notice, there's plenty of reasons for not only SOC to refund but for Visa to charge back. number 1 being the charge-back fee.

    I'm sure that it's fine, there's 40,000 other people that go every year, someone else will want to camp and hit the expo, i've done it 6 years prior. The expo seems a little stale and not really worth the $30 alone without racing IMO.

    If i can't race for what i paid, camping and riding (SS?) at Bogg's DOES sound fun that weekend.

  6. #6
    Mtn View, CA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biker_Scout_Sparky View Post
    From the above article:

    1A2(c): The definition of a one-day license was tightened to make it clear that the license may only be purchased by someone who holds the lowest category for the discipline of the race. No rider who has previously held a higher category can purchase a one-day license. In other words, it is a beginner, trial license.

    The SS XC race only has cat 1 and cat 2 so cat 2 is the lowest category available for that discipline. You should argue it's eligible for a one day license. Otherwise I say register under an assumed name in cat 3. Maybe "Ricky Bobby".
    Atomic batteries to power...turbines to speed...

  7. #7
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by gddyap View Post
    From the above article:

    1A2(c): The definition of a one-day license was tightened to make it clear that the license may only be purchased by someone who holds the lowest category for the discipline of the race. No rider who has previously held a higher category can purchase a one-day license. In other words, it is a beginner, trial license.

    The SS XC race only has cat 1 and cat 2 so cat 2 is the lowest category available for that discipline. You should argue it's eligible for a one day license. Otherwise I say register under an assumed name in cat 3. Maybe "Ricky Bobby".
    Gddyap, you are a frickin geenyus!!! You got some eagle eyes, my friend. That is exactly what I'm going to do.

    Mega-Thanks!!

  8. #8
    Mtn View, CA
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    You should download the rule book and check the exact verbiage. I'm not sure if that article quoted it exactly. USAC will say that "discipline" means XC and the lowest XC cat is 3 even though it isn't offered in SS. It's worth a try anyway.
    Atomic batteries to power...turbines to speed...

  9. #9
    Master of '80s BMX tricks
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    (x-post from the nor-cal forum thread) i just got a reply back from Frosty, he's confused too and is checking into it more but it sounds as if what others are pointing out is the case.
    Day licenses will be available for Cat2 if there's no Cat3.

    that said; why isn't that made clearer in the USAC announcement and why isn't the USAC day license fee incorporated into the race registration process for SOC?

  10. #10
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    The responses I got from someone at USAC and a area rep said that cat 2 and cat 3 can both get a one day license at the same event. The way I read the rule it is 2 or 3 not 2 and 3. I guess they think or means both. I will have a burger or fry to go please. It seems that people at USAC don't understand there own rule.

  11. #11
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    There are a few rule changes that promoters should be aware of for 2014. You can access the new 2014 Rulebook and view the rule changes on page 3-4. Following is a brief highlight.
    one day licenses are now $15 and intended for first time riders. They are not to be used to enter masters races for riders that have have held a license in previous years in order to skirt buying an annual license.--

    This is one I x-posted in XC racing. I have read the entire thing on U-SACK and am cornfused and pissed. I stumbled on this thread in a search for answers (just so no one thinks I am spreading crap to be a duo shay) and it seems like we are getting a run around. I will stay posted waiting for news. My local series promoter shot off an email to U-SACK today and I will post up what they find too.
    Find a ride on FB> AZ MTB

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  12. #12
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    It is $10 for MTB. If you read the license page the rule states this.

    For mountain bike events, riders may purchase a one-day racing license for $10 and be permitted to enter races open to category 2 or category 3 riders. Riders must hold an annual license to race as a category 1 or Pro racer.

    In the rules book on 2014 changes it says this.

    1A2(c): The definition of a one-day license was tightened to make it clear that the license may only be purchased by someone who holds the lowest category for the discipline of the race. Nobody who ever held a higher category can purchase a one day. In other words, it is a beginner, trial license.

  13. #13
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    This is for a small handful of folks here;

    The mean-spirited pokes at Frost are uncalled for. Many people within the industry, from Yeti's Chris Conroy to SRAM's Dave Z have all been working hard to bring transparency and accountability to the rider/USAC interface on this topic as well as the forbidden race issue. But not a single one (me included...and I've worked on this timesuck for well over a year) have spent the time that Frost has trying to make things better/cheaper/more meaningful and sensible for the riding community.

    Some of you guys are lobbing some very misguided and uninformed potshots his way. He's put in a lot of time and effort on behalf of every single existing and potential license holder. Can any of you namecallers say the same? And FWIW, there's no better dog to have in this fight than him - he's informed, ethical, and a fundamentally decent human being. He's also working his ASS off for the very outliers calling him names and questioning his character in this thread.

    A better and more constructive idea? Develop an understanding of the USAC org chart so that you can express your dissatisfaction to the organization that built this business model, not the people and promoters obligated to live under its umbrella.

    McCormack
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  14. #14
    mtbr member
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    Good points. I am not angry with my local promoter here in AZ. (I'd be posting about this over in that forum but all they care about is poop, horses and lasers)

    Being a former event promoter (never MTB thankfully) I feel bad for the ones who are going to lose customers, spend valuble time they do not have trying to mitigate the idiotic ideals of USAC and still trying to make thier organization survive.

    If I had the money and resources, I would love to be part of a new sanctioning body that existed primarily for amatuer racing that still allowed willing pro's to come race. The only reason for USAC is national ranking for members and a great deal on insurance, while maybe not having to rewrite your own rulebook (PITA). Other than that, there is no good reason to have them as a sanction for race series.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeMac View Post
    This is for a small handful of folks here;

    The mean-spirited pokes at Frost are uncalled for. Many people within the industry, from Yeti's Chris Conroy to SRAM's Dave Z have all been working hard to bring transparency and accountability to the rider/USAC interface on this topic as well as the forbidden race issue. But not a single one (me included...and I've worked on this timesuck for well over a year) have spent the time that Frost has trying to make things better/cheaper/more meaningful and sensible for the riding community.

    Some of you guys are lobbing some very misguided and uninformed potshots his way. He's put in a lot of time and effort on behalf of every single existing and potential license holder. Can any of you namecallers say the same? And FWIW, there's no better dog to have in this fight than him - he's informed, ethical, and a fundamentally decent human being. He's also working his ASS off for the very outliers calling him names and questioning his character in this thread.

    A better and more constructive idea? Develop an understanding of the USAC org chart so that you can express your dissatisfaction to the organization that built this business model, not the people and promoters obligated to live under its umbrella.

    McCormack
    Find a ride on FB> AZ MTB

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  15. #15
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeMac View Post
    This is for a small handful of folks here;

    The mean-spirited pokes at Frost are uncalled for. Many people within the industry, from Yeti's Chris Conroy to SRAM's Dave Z have all been working hard to bring transparency and accountability to the rider/USAC interface on this topic as well as the forbidden race issue. But not a single one (me included...and I've worked on this timesuck for well over a year) have spent the time that Frost has trying to make things better/cheaper/more meaningful and sensible for the riding community.

    Some of you guys are lobbing some very misguided and uninformed potshots his way. He's put in a lot of time and effort on behalf of every single existing and potential license holder. Can any of you namecallers say the same? And FWIW, there's no better dog to have in this fight than him - he's informed, ethical, and a fundamentally decent human being. He's also working his ASS off for the very outliers calling him names and questioning his character in this thread.

    A better and more constructive idea? Develop an understanding of the USAC org chart so that you can express your dissatisfaction to the organization that built this business model, not the people and promoters obligated to live under its umbrella.

    McCormack
    The only potshot I saw was from empty_beer calling him 'frosty the clown', which I don't think is that big a burn.

    Anywho, I appreciate folks looking into this. I don't appreciate USAC changing the rules to exclude racers from competing. It seems like they're trying to encourage racers to either race more or pony up for an annual license, but the end result is going to be the occasional racers are just not going to race.

  16. #16
    mtb'er
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    The only potshot I saw was from empty_beer calling him 'frosty the clown', which I don't think is that big a burn.
    I simply made a comment to the OP about getting a refund... nothing about USAC. It's based on a poor experience I had with Mr. Frosty, when asking for a refund or credit when circumstances beyond my control weren't going to allow me to go to Sea Otter. No dice. Lost a customer for life. Thus, "good luck getting your $ back"! Hopefully you have better success than I did!

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    I just saw that USAC no longer issues one day licenses for CAT2 or CAT1 races. I've been racing CAT2 for years, just because I fee that CAT3 should be left to new racers. Believe me, I never finish even in the top 50% of CAT2 Singlespeed anyway.

    I enter one race a year.... Sea Otter Classic CAT2 Singlespeed. Now the requirement is that I buy an annual USAC racing license to the tune of $70 so I can race CAT2. Great.

    Oh, there is also a rule where if you raced CAT2, you can't go back and race CAT3, so the CAT3 exception doesn't apply here.

    I have a better idea. Howzabout I get a refund on my Sea Otter entry fee, and they get nothing? What a F'ed up rule... greedy bastards!!!

    Many sports are like that , Racquetball is another one where you do one event and the governing body mandates yearly fee to play. Come to think of it Launching high power rockets requires giving money yearly also to the big dogs even one time. So, it seems to be they are catching up to everybody else.

  18. #18
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    I am racing Cat 3 and was just notified that I would need to purchase a $10 one day racing pass. Not sure about the other categories.

  19. #19
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    I thought the SOC website had info, last month, that the 1 day fees were being waived for cat 2 & 3. Now the website is showing that you will need to purchase a 1 day for $10. Did anyone else see anything about the 1 day fees being waived?
    ccorc.org

  20. #20
    Plays with tools
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    Your beef is with USAC, taking it out on the promoter won't get you anywhere.

  21. #21
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    USA Cycling Racing License Information:



    As a reminder for those without an annual racing license, we highly recommend you purchase your one-day racing license online prior to the event. This will expedite your check-in process at Sea Otter Registration.


    A special note for mountain bikers - the one-day license for a training-day is $5 if purchased online, $10 onsite. A race-day license is $10 online or onsite.



    Complete USA Cycling License Information can be found here.



    A license is not required for Gran Fondo and Night Ride cyclists.


    The Sea Otter Team

  22. #22
    ballbuster
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    Quote Originally Posted by customfab View Post
    Your beef is with USAC, taking it out on the promoter won't get you anywhere.
    My beef with the promoter was more based on this not being communicated up front. Sorta like, you bought a concert ticket, you show up at the gate, and the guy there says there is an extra 'security' charge and won't let you in unless you pay the extra $70. Seems like it's mostly solved, at least for me (CAT2 Singlespeed)

    ... and I'm wondering why USAC is involved with this anyway. Yeah, I get that SOC is probably the biggest bike race in the US, but I'm trying really hard to figure out exactly what they do for non-pro classes.... and I'm drawing a complete blank.

    *edit* Okay, I can see the need for scorekeeping across an entire season. Points for place, add up points for seasonal rankings, etc. Seems to me that if folks didn't want to bother keeping track, they should not have to pay for that. If the $5 goes towards some sort of one-day health insurance, emergency helicopter rides to the nearest ER, that sorta thing, it should be rolled into the entry fee of the race.

  23. #23
    ballbuster
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    Okay, so I went to USAC's website, and there is no listing for SOC event to pre-pay the day license. Did I miss the window, or something?

    There also seems to be no support link on the USAC site.

  24. #24
    Mtn View, CA
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    I don't see Sea Otter on the USAC website either. Also, why is the 1 day license for road and cx $15 but mtb is $10?
    Atomic batteries to power...turbines to speed...

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimpbot View Post
    My beef with the promoter was more based on this not being communicated up front. Sorta like, you bought a concert ticket, you show up at the gate, and the guy there says there is an extra 'security' charge and won't let you in unless you pay the extra $70. Seems like it's mostly solved, at least for me (CAT2 Singlespeed)

    ... and I'm wondering why USAC is involved with this anyway. Yeah, I get that SOC is probably the biggest bike race in the US, but I'm trying really hard to figure out exactly what they do for non-pro classes.... and I'm drawing a complete blank.

    *edit* Okay, I can see the need for scorekeeping across an entire season. Points for place, add up points for seasonal rankings, etc. Seems to me that if folks didn't want to bother keeping track, they should not have to pay for that. If the $5 goes towards some sort of one-day health insurance, emergency helicopter rides to the nearest ER, that sorta thing, it should be rolled into the entry fee of the race.

    I kind of see that argument, but on the other hand I think it's common sense that an athlete needs a license to race.

    Part of the one day license does go to insurance for race accidents. Not sure where it stops and starts though. Rolling coverage into the entry fee doesn't really work. Most riders have an annual license so they would be paying twice for those services.

    I begrudgingly send my $50 to USAC every year for a race mechanics license, something I get zero return on. The insurance associated with it isn't enough to make me feel covered so I carry my own. All they ever do is send me emails looking for volunteers. I just roll it into the price of doing business.

    If a race like Sea Otter decided to go rogue it would be a giant kick in the teeth for USAC. A race that size and with that much draw could definitely drive the point that USAC isn't doing much for these events or the riders that participat.

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