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  1. #1
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    CHEATER in Cat II XC 15-18

    1 2297 MATTHEW KOENIG 16 SONORA, CA 01:09:52 00:00:00
    2 1804 JEFF SHEN 17 MONTEREY, CA 01:24:19 00:14:27.3
    3 1161 SCOTT KOLOFER 18 SALINAS, CA 01:24:22 00:14:30.8
    4 2112 ALEX WILD 17 LOS GATOS, CA 01:25:19 00:15:27.0
    5 922 JUSTIN GRIFFIN 13 WEST VALLEY CITY, UT 01:25:21 00:15:29.0

    1st place got away with cheating. Posted a time of 1:09 which is faster than most if not all pros, being one of the racers affected I think this is ridiculous and am very angry with Sea Otter Staff for refusing our protest. We all passed him and he got away with it.

  2. #2
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    I wonder why

    Sea Otter didn't somehow catch this either I mean, it's not like this one is rocket science... that is a big gap on the field...unless he royally sandbagged.

    Did others join in the protest?

    What happened on the podium?

  3. #3
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    If you are not cheating, you are not trying.
    If I disagree with you, it's because you are wrong.

  4. #4
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    Clue me in here. What's your basis for saying he cheated? I see the guy won by a big gap; I also see he's apparently pretty young.

  5. #5
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    I need further explanation as to how he cheated or else I initial think you are just whining.

  6. #6
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    I was out there volunteering at a booth and heard a lot of people discussing this. His time was much faster than the rest of his age group (or any of the other groups) on that same course but the judges could not "prove" that he cheated so they awarded him 1st place. Nobody clapped or anything when he was announced as the winner.

  7. #7
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    kray,

    Sounds like the judges made the only decision that could be made. Without any proof hard to do anything. Maybe he is just that good, maybe not.

  8. #8
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    We all know he did not ride the full course.
    He started out in the lead pack, fighting for position. he crashed a couple times and fell back, I drafted him for awhile then passed him. No other time in the race did he pass me then I hear he beat me. its just not possible. Also Single Speeder Jason Macdonald, works for specialized, passed everyone in the field including the tandems and this guy never passed Jason, making it impossible to have beat him or me. Also, my girlfriend and family who were standing at the finish line noticed he was not even the least bit tired. On the podium none of us went up to the podium with him, we received our stuff later. He looked very guilty and only raised his hands for a split second, he knew he did it and so did we.
    Last edited by Alex Wild; 04-19-2009 at 09:01 AM.

  9. #9
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    Did you lodge your protest with the USA cycling official? I think he is same official at the Team Big Bear races. He has always been very responsive to complaints and rules in accordance with USA cycling regulations.

    I'm puzzled was the USA cycling official protested to or the Sea Otter Staff/volunteers?
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  10. #10
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    We were directed to a guy who we lodged our protest with, there were about seven of us all saying the same thing, either that we passed him or he never passed us... It was very disappointing to see such a big race with such a crappy outcome. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out 1:09 is impossible on that course, that would be averaging 18.5 mph in the SPORT cat.

  11. #11
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    His previous times also tell us he does not post times like that. 2 weeks ago he placed 5th in JV BOYS. With those kind of times he would be winning varsity.

  12. #12
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    Alex, thanks for the further explanation. From your explanation, it sounds like there must have been some spot on the course where he was able to cut off a loop to get in front, and there weren't enough course marshals / monitoring points to catch that.

  13. #13
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    What was matthew saying? Was he there during the protest?
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  14. #14
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    had that happen in road races (running) before, really sucks the fun out of it beyond belief. It's just hard to prove.
    Last edited by primefocus; 04-19-2009 at 12:27 PM.

  15. #15
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    "If you're not cheating, you're not trying"

    Cute but expected. . .

    Maybe well even get to "vote" for him in the 2028 POTUSA election

  16. #16
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    Yeah we all believe he cut the course somehow but are unsure of where. It was a big dissappointment in such a big race that he could get away with that. Mathew was not there during the protest but had been talked to and claimed to have riden the whole course. He rides for NorCal League and I think he Should be DQ'd for the season.

  17. #17
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    I'm surprised the officials did not dq him especially if he was not present during the protest to defend himself. The his time is too fast.

    But lets take a step back and make sure we know he cheated on purpose. It could be entirely not of his making.

    I would not assume that he "cheated" intentionally. Unless you actually heard him say "I raced the entire course". For all we know the mistake could have been with Sea Otter staff.

    Perhaps he cut the course by mistake and told someone that he DNFed. Races are a dynamic and hectic setting. I've put several races with my club CCORC. We have made errors with DNFer appearing to be 1st. (We corrected them and ruled in favor of the protester if the 1st place person was not there and others collaborated the protester) Perhaps the person he told did not relay it on the correct timely people. All I'm saying is don't label him a "cheater" unless you know he cheated. The whole thing could be a mix up not of his making.

    You know you won and that in it self is a major accomplishment. But listing someone's name on MTBR as "cheater" is uncalled for and inaccurate unless you heard him say that he won or ran the whole course.
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  18. #18
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    I am a bit bothered by the top cat3 times, in no way is that beginner?? Oh well, I had a good time even though I did 2:36 or so. It was nice that they had a water/energy break, I felt bad for the guys with one little bottle that keep saying "when is the next water." They should have been prepared but it still sucks for them..

  19. #19
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    We talked to him and he claimed to have been legit and raced the whole course, hence the reason we did not go up to podium.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Wild
    We talked to him and he claimed to have been legit and raced the whole course, hence the reason we did not go up to podium.
    Ouch! That clears in up in my mind. You were robbed! But I think you still won a free set of Crank Bros wheels right?
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  21. #21
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    Haha I wish I did!!!!!
    who told you that?

  22. #22
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    It must have been the 3rd place finisher then? I was at Crank Bros booth getting my Candys worked on when one of the juniors came up and presented his metal. There was a discussion about the "cheater" but the point was Crank Bros gave him a free set of wheels. I think if you went to booth before the race and demoed the wheels during the race and made it to the podium you got the keep the wheels! I wish I would have known about it before, I made 5th for my Cat. Those cobalts are sweet.

    Anyhow, strong work at the race! You are crazy fast! Sorry you were cheated out of a 1st.
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  23. #23
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    Three years ago all of us singlespeeders "cheated" by being directed to a much shorter course by the lead motorcycle. He probably went to pee somewhere and we followed him.

    None of us did it intentionally of course. One of the couple of racers who took the right course eventually gave up and complained. I never thought that I cheated because the whole pack was racing and I was following. :-/

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Wild
    Also Single Speeder Jason Macdonald, works for specialized, passed everyone in the field including the tandems and this guy never passed Jason, making it impossible to have beat him or me.
    If he posted a time before Jason Macdonald, it could have been only if Matthew's ankle tag passed over the mat at the finish line. If Jason was the first to pass in person, then the tag was not on Matthew's ankle.

    - If somebody else passed the tag, then it is obviously cheating.

    - How about an error in the timing system? Could it have posted an incorrect time? Very unlikely...

    - How about Matthew made an honest mistake and missed a turn?

    Ali

    P.S. After reading this thread, I thought of a cheating plan. This is just a thought; I am not saying it being related to this case at all: An accomplice passes the tag over the mat much *later* than the actual race starts and hands it to his racer friend somewhere before the finish line.

    Actually no hand-over needed: The racer stops as if there is a problem with the bike and grabs the tag from the spot where the accomplice hid it half an hour prior! :-O

  24. #24
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    Alex,
    1:25 you must have been cheating or riding with a motor.
    Great pace!
    Sorry to hear about this mud on the podium.
    I wonder how long it will be for Garmin type equipment to be required for a post ride inspection on big events? I could prove that I did not cheat to finish in 1:46. lol
    The worst part for this guy is that he will have the rest of his life to look back at that day that he took 1st from the guy that earned it. That is a bummer skeleton to have in your closet for the rest of his life.
    See you on the LG trails.

  25. #25
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    Thanks guys, wish i went to the CB tent before the race!!!
    I will fer sure see you on the trails!

  26. #26
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    Only thing I wanna know is how you let Scott beat you?

  27. #27
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    This 16 year old got 109 min?

    The guy that got first in my 25-29 Cat II got 119 min and he normally races Pro, along with 2nd place and 3rd place in my category. My guess is that he cut the course short at the the one really steep wall climb section, where the return of the course passes right by that section.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    This 16 year old got 109 min?
    Could very well be. That is 1:49...

    My guess is that he cut the course short at the the one really steep wall climb section, where the return of the course passes right by that section.
    That's my guess too. There were two arrows side by side, one pointing to the wall, one pointing to the right. The one pointing to the right said something like "junior ladies" in impossibly smally print. And no, I wouldn't be able to read it during the race.

    I can't believe that they used the same red arrow for both directions.

    Ali

  29. #29
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    Yup saw him on the last climb

    We all said theres no way in hell thats right. Sucks he didnt DQ himself at the finish. What a tool

  30. #30
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    I almost took a right where the girls do, I was in a bunch and they were turning so I followed the crowd until the guys standing around yelled at me - he probably did that..

  31. #31
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    Haha I didn't train as hard as I should have. I have beaten Scott in the past by larger margins

  32. #32
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    And i dont know the course well enough to know where he could have cut it... =/

  33. #33
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    You know what I passed up to eight clydes in the Cat 3 Clydes and it did seem odd that I came in 2nd to last? I was like WTF????

    I pre rode the course and on that fork where the women take the right turn it was easy to get confused. Oh well what can you do if they did intntionally cheat they are only cheating themselves.

    I am getting down on Sea Otter officials because that event overall was run very very well. It was also my first ever race and I was not aware that I could have protested the results within only 1/2 hour time of results being posted.

  34. #34
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    Poor kid. Not even here to defend himself.


    I'll bet his prom date is not going to be impressed by his fast finish

  35. #35
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    Too many explainations but lots of ill will.

    I know you are unhappy Alex but this is when you have to dig deep and be a good sport. Race Day is crazy and Sea Otter is simply jammed with an enormous number of people and circumstances. Now you are just smearing a person. This has nothing to do with NorCal High School Racing. If this is working you so bad then join up and dust him in the next race to get some satisfaction because you aren't going to get a pound of flesh.
    Good luck in your next race.

  36. #36
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    I don't race him anywhere else, hes JV and I am Varsity.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Wild
    I don't race him anywhere else, hes JV and I am Varsity.
    Then you have already beaten him.
    "Bikes aren't fast--people are fast. Bikes are overpriced. It's an important distinction."---BikeSnob NYC

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    I know you are unhappy Alex but this is when you have to dig deep and be a good sport. Race Day is crazy and Sea Otter is simply jammed with an enormous number of people and circumstances. Now you are just smearing a person. This has nothing to do with NorCal High School Racing. If this is working you so bad then join up and dust him in the next race to get some satisfaction because you aren't going to get a pound of flesh.
    Good luck in your next race.
    Seriously??????? Someone CLEARLY messed up and you expect him to be OK with that. Smearing a person who probably knows he has no business being on the podium, at least by 20 minutes, is OK with me. Especially if that person was already questioned and the mistake was brought to their attention. If I beat the field by that much I'd have to question myself and pull myself off of the podium. That would have been the "good sport" thing to do.

    I really can't believe you're saying "this is OK." What you've taught the other kid is that it's OK to cheat as long as no one can prove it. What ever happened to doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do.

  39. #39
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    "Behind every great fortune is a great crime"

    No seriously, that is messed up. When we have local races the connecting trails are always monitored by race staff...unless they make the course longer.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Wild
    I don't race him anywhere else, hes JV and I am Varsity.
    He races at Prarie City series every wed in Sacramento,I was at the top of the hill and dont remember him being ahead of everyone at that point. Is it possible it was a timing chip error?

  41. #41
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    So what cheater or sandbagger won the GT golden bike?

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    So what cheater or sandbagger won the GT golden bike?
    No. The unwritten fine print says they have to be 18 to win. So...The guy who won the 25-29 class is most likely the winner. He races Pro in the Intermountain Cup series. However it doesn't earn national points so he couldn't race pro at Sea Otter. So he chose to race sport instead of expert. Hmmm. I guess that means in all reality, the answer is "yes" to your original question.

  43. #43
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    Hmmm, dang.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Wild
    I don't race him anywhere else, hes JV and I am Varsity.
    You compete directly with one of my racers, Ian Breunig, so I know a fair bit about your ability level. Ian raced Cat 1 at Sea Otter. It is a shame that you do not have a coach to support you right now. I imagine that this is why you are reaching out here.

    No one really knows exactly what happened or who was thinking what, when and lots of people pop off about what "otta happen." These sorts of contribution are a dime a dozen.

    For you though, I still encourage you to make an adjustment, stop spreading negativity, and see how this plays out. It is not over. Preserve your own dignity.

    I look forward to seeing you at this weekends race.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silentfoe
    No. The unwritten fine print says they have to be 18 to win. So...The guy who won the 25-29 class is most likely the winner. He races Pro in the Intermountain Cup series. However it doesn't earn national points so he couldn't race pro at Sea Otter. So he chose to race sport instead of expert. Hmmm. I guess that means in all reality, the answer is "yes" to your original question.
    That guy the won Cat II 25-29 was on a Delta 7 and beat me by 5:30 min. I had a chance to talk to him becuase I spoted his bike and medal at the Delta 7 booth. He told me that he normally races pro and he needed points to race expert. I say USA Cycling has some shitty rules. No wonder no one races it anymore on the dirt.

    The top 3 people race Pro (one of them in Super D) in the Cat II 25-29. I started a rant thread about it.

  45. #45
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    There really IS no fun in the sport category, is there??? I think I'll just stick to Cat3 until they kick me out.

  46. #46
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    who cares about the sandbagging and cheating. racing is about you posting your best time on that day, it is about you and your performance. placing amongst your peers is nice, but really if you are trying to collect a plastic trophy or a piece of metal on a string you should re-evaluate what you are doing on your bike.

    don't whine about someone "cheating", just go out and have fun. hell when i finished my race i knew i couldn't have done better. i checked the results and they said i was ninth, then people started protesting and somehow i lost two positions. does it matter to me? nope! if people need to cry their way into the top ranks then let em. i did my best and i have my time.

    one thing i am slightly bummed about is that the pro men didn't race the same laps so i can't compare my time to theirs. i don't have the results to bump to pro, but being able to compare times would let me know where i might have landed if i could bump up.

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    Preserve your own dignity.

    Good rule of thumb period!

  48. #48
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    I only wish his time is true, he would have beat Sauser's first lap by about 4 minutes I think. America's next great hope!

  49. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme
    who cares about the sandbagging and cheating. racing is about you posting your best time on that day, it is about you and your performance. placing amongst your peers is nice, but really if you are trying to collect a plastic trophy or a piece of metal on a string you should re-evaluate what you are doing on your bike.

    don't whine about someone "cheating", just go out and have fun. hell when i finished my race i knew i couldn't have done better. i checked the results and they said i was ninth, then people started protesting and somehow i lost two positions. does it matter to me? nope! if people need to cry their way into the top ranks then let em. i did my best and i have my time.

    one thing i am slightly bummed about is that the pro men didn't race the same laps so i can't compare my time to theirs. i don't have the results to bump to pro, but being able to compare times would let me know where i might have landed if i could bump up.
    Mmm, yeah I don't care about 9th or 11th. But 1st and 2nd, I care, and not because of a medal or trophy.

    At some point in my race career, which has just begun this season, I would like to win a race without sandbagging. If that were snatched from me because of someone cheating, I'd be pretty miffed. If you don't care, fine, but I don't begrudge people who want to win.

    People often criticize Tiger Woods for being too serious when he plays and not chumming it up with the fans. But that's what I like about him. I compete to win. I can have fun on my own.

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterC

    People often criticize Tiger Woods for being too serious when he plays and not chumming it up with the fans. But that's what I like about him. I compete to win. I can have fun on my own.

    People criticize Lance Armstrong for being to shrewd and serious about racing. Look at his divorce of the mother of his children.

  51. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    People criticize Lance Armstrong for being to shrewd and serious about racing. Look at his divorce of the mother of his children.
    I didn't know the two were connected.

    And I have a family member going through divorce and I still don't know all the particulars. It's hard to judge people for their marital and any number of other personal decisions. It's not something he will discuss in detail and how could I ever know what their lives are like inside their marriage.

    Regardless, I think we can all agree that cheaters getting away with cheating hurts the credibility of any sport where the competition is overseen by a sactioning body.

  52. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    That guy the won Cat II 25-29 was on a Delta 7 and beat me by 5:30 min. I had a chance to talk to him becuase I spoted his bike and medal at the Delta 7 booth. He told me that he normally races pro and he needed points to race expert. I say USA Cycling has some shitty rules. No wonder no one races it anymore on the dirt.

    The top 3 people race Pro (one of them in Super D) in the Cat II 25-29. I started a rant thread about it.

    It's not really hard to upgrade to CAT 1, especially with good results in Intermountain Cup. You just have to get an annual license a couple weeks before the race and ask for an upgrade. I did that last year for the Deer Valley race (upgraded to expert). It does take some forethought and he probably did not think to apply for a license early. It also sucks you need an annual license to race CAT 1, especially for those of us in Utah who may only use it for one race a year.

    I agree with others though, you should be proud of how you did and put this behind you...there's too much fun to be had to worry about a lost podium position. It's likely he did not cheat intentionally, and just wasn't sure how to go about turning down 1st. He's probably already learned from his mistake.

    Edit: Since when is CAT 1 NOT amateur, I thought the GT would go to fastest CAT 1.
    Last edited by brentos; 04-22-2009 at 10:06 PM.

  53. #53
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    No one has ever said that cheating was okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex
    I really can't believe you're saying "this is OK." What you've taught the other kid is that it's OK to cheat as long as no one can prove it. What ever happened to doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
    At the same time no one really knows what went down, do they? There are a lot of people here making assumptions and guesses and pontifications about what is right based on a total absence of the facts. And we are talking about kids here, not adults who seem to know everything about what is right in the absence of factual information. So....in the end all that is left is ones dignity. How one handles defeat or transgression is signal. It is the sign of a class act and that is something worth learning.
    I will always remember Alex Wild, with generosity, for how he handled this incident to start and how he finally resolves it.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-23-2009 at 07:35 AM.

  54. #54
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    Kris -- Or until you place in the top 10? That will be my cue to move up.
    Every rose has it's thorn.

    enjoy the ear worm

  55. #55
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    see below ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance
    There really IS no fun in the sport category, is there??? I think I'll just stick to Cat3 until they kick me out.
    asfadasdfaf
    Every rose has it's thorn.

    enjoy the ear worm

  56. #56
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    Ah, Mike... Always the coach we should have had

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    At the same time no one really knows what went down, do they? There are a lot of people here making assumption and guesses and pontifications about what is right based on a total absence of the facts. And we are talking about kids here, not adults who seem to know everything about what is right in the absence of factual information. So....in the end all that is left is ones dignity. How one handles defeat or transgression is signal. It is the sign of a class act and that is something worth learning.
    I will always remember Alex Wild, with generosity, for how he handled this incident to start and how he finally resolves it.
    +1 for Coach Mike's suggestions to the OP. Alex, what were your goals for the race? Was your time better, worse, or about what you had hoped for? Did you train and then race with as much integrity as possible? If not, then you only have yourself to blame for your dissatisfaction. But if you did train your hardest, and you raced your race, then it's understandable that you're upset. But it's that same integrity that you brought into this event that you must maintain afterward. Everyone here, I believe, thinks that you competed fairly in a race that ended in question, or was non-legit in some way. But we also get the impression that you did very well. The bigger picture here is that you competed with the dignity to do it right. Stay dignified, swallow it, and show quality of character, and know that you were successful despite what the results say. In short, continue to be your best.
    Every rose has it's thorn.

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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoBalance
    There really IS no fun in the sport category, is there???
    obviously you didn't get any beer or donuts

    Beer and donuts
    Quote Originally Posted by thefuzzbl
    aluminium has a tendency to fail when you need it most. i.e. you end up with a bad day.

  58. #58
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    if you want a win that counts, then move up to CAT1 right away and train your butt off. throw down with all you got on race day and hope that you get a win.

    a win in CAT2 isn't going to garner you any special treatment. believe me. i was there last year.

    btw... cheating is just as rampant in other categories. I know for a fact that racers in my class (CAT1 where people know better) were taking bottles outside the feed zones.

  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by whybotherme
    btw... cheating is just as rampant in other categories. I know for a fact that racers in my class (CAT1 where people know better) were taking bottles outside the feed zones.
    I know its against the rules, but is that really cheating? Half the time I can't even find an official who knows where the feed zone is. I guess I'm asking because I've never thought twice about a competitor doing it and am wondering what the reasoning is for calling it cheating??

  60. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnyboy
    I know its against the rules, but is that really cheating? Half the time I can't even find an official who knows where the feed zone is. I guess I'm asking because I've never thought twice about a competitor doing it and am wondering what the reasoning is for calling it cheating??
    LOL... so it is against the rules... and if you break the rules you aren't cheating? i think you answered your own question. the feed zones were marked on the course map that was posted days before the event.

    i lost my water bottle on the first sandy descent, when i went through nuetral feed they gave me a mostly empty bottle (about two sips, i am still kind of bummed out about that) which left me with almost no fluids for the entire first lap. i would have loved to have taken a bottle on course where i saw a ton of Dasani bottles laying around, and it might have helped me maintain my top 5 or 6 position that I was in after lap one. unfortunately dehydration led to cramping and I went backwards fast on lap 2.

    taking a bottle outside the feed zone is restricted so that we are all on a level playing field and for safety reasons, among others I am sure I can't imagine.

    worst case scenario: it would be a huge advantage for a racer to never carry water and just get a small feed at the top of every climb. ludicrous, but conceivable.

    cheating is any time you are aware of a rule of racing, then deliberately (or even unintentionally, think about the doping ban put on pros that had unintentionally taken tainted products) break that rule.

    in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter that a CAT1 racer broke rules and took a bottle outside the feed, so i wouldn't file a protest... but going by the rules it should be a penalty.

  61. #61
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    Bottles and food outside Feed Zones

    is also a Safety issue. The Feed Zone is the one place that traffic flow is mitigated to support the riders needs. In a sense racing in that area is "suspended" to support more cooperative behaviors and encourage riders to be aware of more unusual movement as things are handed off.

    I felt badly for the Cat 1 racers who had to struggle with hydration issues. I saw the effect it had on a number of racers and it really made the case for a camelback. These are the kinds of problems you see in new racers as they suffer with heat due to lack of preparation or the regular hydration one learns after experience. When skilled racers run into this problem something is amiss. There were reports of stations running out of water. Clearly the support at SO was inadequate for some.
    This is yet another of the problems with the SO production along with shaky results, timing chip errors, uneven course marshaling. It is a huge job.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 04-23-2009 at 12:19 PM.

  62. #62
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    First, I agree with everything said in the response to my query, it is in the rule books and so is cheating. That said, though, I guess I was taken aback by the fact it was brought up in comparison too what this thread is discussing. Some people see things in black and white and I'm a shades of grey person.

    For example at the Sagebrush safari I was racing unsupported doing battle with someone on Sho-air (read big time support). During warmup I went up the hill to the feed zone to stash a bottle for that second long climb. If I had placed it in the feed zone it may well have been trampled or I would have had to fight my way through a pile of support people to find my bottle. I went several hundred yards up the hill and found a rock to set it on. During the race I had to stop and change bottles while only several hundred feet ahead of a competitor who got a hand-up and was able gain on me. In that 2hr race I was beat by 55 seconds. I didn't feel like a cheater at the time .

    Whybother, I lost my bottle around the same spot on Sunday. What was up with those half full hand ups, I got the same thing. Luckily I had put a 12oz bottle of Ice in my jersey pocket to keep cool, man did that save my bacon.

  63. #63
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    Saw this in the Ibex forum...

    Pulled a jake

    YEAA "*My name is ******* and my son is ******. ***** raced the Cross Country Cat II race at Sea Otter and was awarded first place. Initially he was DQed for posting a time deemed too fast. We did not know what a reasonable time should have been. We were asked to explain the reasoning to the protest officials, which we did and were told the issue was resolved and that he would receive first place. We felt that the time differintial was due to signing up for a category that may have been inappropriate (we were unsure if he should race Cat I or Cat II). Cutting the course would have been nearly impossible as he is unfamiliar with the area and didnt even preride the course, therefore the only explanation was signing up for the wrong class.

    Yesterday, we viewed the results of the Cat I racers and were shocked to see the times. We realized that it was impossible for ******* to have been so quick. We have no explanation for the mistake but feel the only right thing to do is admit a mistake was made. Although we can never right the wrong of having deprived the young man the opportunity to stand atop the podium we are truly sorry. ***** wishes to give the jersey, medal and swag to the rightful owner as soon as practical. A similar letter is being sent to Sea Otter in an attempt to resolve this matter."
    No moss...

  64. #64
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    i skipped out on reading after Bmikes 3rd post. Mike has been busting his arz working with and training kids on MTB. He does this on many occasions on his dime. How many of you out their are contributing to MTB like Mike does?? I know Alex from the forums only and he seems to be a honest kid with spirit. From what Mike has responded to he is encouraging Alex to get some coaching because he has potential. So far Alex and others may have been robed but with the politics of racing strange things happen. If one is to go pro they will get over it and move on other wise it turns into a flame fest sticking with the minor leagues. When others start investing their time into teaching and encouraging kids and the rare young guns on how to become an athlete there is a place to talk otherwise your opinion is yours because your time is yours.
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  65. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnyboy
    First, I agree with everything said in the response to my query, it is in the rule books and so is cheating. That said, though, I guess I was taken aback by the fact it was brought up in comparison too what this thread is discussing. Some people see things in black and white and I'm a shades of grey person.

    For example at the Sagebrush safari I was racing unsupported doing battle with someone on Sho-air (read big time support). During warmup I went up the hill to the feed zone to stash a bottle for that second long climb. If I had placed it in the feed zone it may well have been trampled or I would have had to fight my way through a pile of support people to find my bottle. I went several hundred yards up the hill and found a rock to set it on. During the race I had to stop and change bottles while only several hundred feet ahead of a competitor who got a hand-up and was able gain on me. In that 2hr race I was beat by 55 seconds. I didn't feel like a cheater at the time .

    Whybother, I lost my bottle around the same spot on Sunday. What was up with those half full hand ups, I got the same thing. Luckily I had put a 12oz bottle of Ice in my jersey pocket to keep cool, man did that save my bacon.
    i appreciate your situation. lack of support sucks. in the case that you are talking about it probably wasn't a big deal. what i am considering out of line is taking bottles of water from bystanders on the course at random locations. that isn't cool. your example was a feed that was "close" to the feed zone. not a bad option for someone with no support.

    there is also the consideration that this race was a ProXCT race and carried UCI points for the Pros. i think the rules should be obeyed a little closer during such a high level event. more grassroots style racing it doesn't matter, in fact Donny at SRC tells the racers that they can take feeds on course. i can see how some people get used to such situations and unknowingly break rules.

    i wish i had put an extra bottle in my jersey. might have saved me a few spots! good job out there!

  66. #66
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    From NorCal

    *My name is Craig Koenig and my son is Matthew Koenig. Matthew raced the Cross Country Cat II race at Sea Otter and was awarded first place. Initially he was DQed for posting a time deemed too fast. We did not know what a reasonable time should have been. We were asked to explain the reasoning to the protest officials, which we did and were told the issue was resolved and that he would receive first place. We felt that the time differintial was due to signing up for a category that may have been inappropriate (we were unsure if he should race Cat I or Cat II). Cutting the course would have been nearly impossible as he is unfamiliar with the area and didnt even preride the course, therefore the only explanation was signing up for the wrong class.

    Yesterday, we viewed the results of the Cat I racers and were shocked to see the times. We realized that it was impossible for Matthew to have been so quick. We have no explanation for the mistake but feel the only right thing to do is admit a mistake was made. Although we can never right the wrong of having deprived the young man the opportunity to stand atop the podium we are truly sorry. Matthew wishes to give the jersey, medal and swag to the rightful owner as soon as practical. A similar letter is being sent to Sea Otter in an attempt to resolve this matter.."

    This comes from the NorCal communications organ, The Singeltrack Times. All anyone wants is to try and get it right. It isn't easy. Way huge kudos to Matt Koenig and his family for stepping up and embracing their role in this very difficult and confounding situation with grace and generosity. NorCal knows how to do it right as do NorCal racers.

    The Sea Otter folk are trying to manage a huge mass of data and participants and stuff happens. Hats off to NorCal High School Racing for their support in this matter.

    AND congratulations to Jeff Shen of Salinas on his victory! We are all proud of your effort and grace. We look forward to seeing you all on Sunday at Granite Bay. I personally look forward to spending time with you all. We are lucky to have this.

  67. #67
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    *My name is Craig Koenig and my son is Matthew Koenig.
    ...
    We felt that the time differintial was due to signing up for a category that may have been inappropriate (we were unsure if he should race Cat I or Cat II). Cutting the course would have been nearly impossible as he is unfamiliar with the area and didnt even preride the course, therefore the only explanation was signing up for the wrong class.
    ...*
    I, personally, wouldn't buy it.
    Sure they had to step up after the whole thing went so public, but the explanation is shady, to say the least. 14+ minutes of advantage (17+% faster) is obviously too huge to anyone close to MTBing. It should have made them thinking, especially when the following times are packed pretty tight. And the guy knew he was passed by others from his category, so how on Earth could he decide that he might have crashed them by 14 minutes??? As far as I can understand, the issue was discussed with them but... Then
    On the podium none of us went up to the podium with him, we received our stuff later. He looked very guilty and only raised his hands for a split second, he knew he did it and so did we.
    That seems a pretty big sign, that something was wrong, to leave it unnoticed and get away with the reward.

    Still hope it was not intentional, and they are just as... ughm... thoughtless, as the explanation of their reasoning seem to be.
    member of the World Conspiracy against Paranoia

  68. #68
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    I believe the sandbagging and cluster fockness has reached a pinacle in the Cat 1,2,3 XC races at the SO. Almost 80-100 guys and gals per class and NO ONE seems to really care its a cluster. We all pre pay with "no refunds" so whatever. I am a local and it is too bad, it is an awesome event and an awesome place to ride. So I will either volunteer or just go up for the beer and demo next year. I have raced the SO 5 years in a row, I wont race anymore. (I know, big deal right) still lame.

    I feel bad for the kid who won, or didn't win, and the others racing in his class. Its a bad situation all the way around. I was racing Cat 2 SS and all you kids (I sound old) were very good about passing and all that there on the last long climb home.

  69. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by quicklaps
    I believe the sandbagging and cluster fockness has reached a pinacle in the Cat 1,2,3 XC races at the SO. Almost 80-100 guys and gals per class and NO ONE seems to really care its a cluster. We all pre pay with "no refunds" so whatever. I am a local and it is too bad, it is an awesome event and an awesome place to ride. So I will either volunteer or just go up for the beer and demo next year. I have raced the SO 5 years in a row, I wont race anymore. (I know, big deal right) still lame.

    I feel bad for the kid who won, or didn't win, and the others racing in his class. Its a bad situation all the way around. I was racing Cat 2 SS and all you kids (I sound old) were very good about passing and all that there on the last long climb home.

    i really don't think it was all that bad... just my opinion though. lots of things to go wrong in a race that big!

    as for the category stuff... that is USAC and i think it will iron itself out over time. i think there are significant challenges to switching the categorization over. the semi-pro class should have stayed in tact and become CAT1 and the expert class should have become CAT2, with CAT3 being sport, and CAT4/CAT5 being beginner. as it is currently categorized i am a CAT1 mtb racer and i consider myself competitive (usually top 10), but a back of the pack CAT1 road racer would destroy me on a bike so the idea of the CAT system lining up with road racing isn't realistic as it stands right now.

    from what i hear there were quite a few pro men who were getting passed by the pro women even though they had a 15 minute head start. that really shouldn't happen, but is due to the discontinuation of the semi-pro class. given a little time people will get this stuff figured out, but it is no fault of the Sea Otter folks.

  70. #70
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    I buy it. I've been trying to find an explanation since the beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    Cutting the course would have been nearly impossible as he is unfamiliar with the area
    Being unfamiliar with the area could be the reason to cut the course unintentionally. I know two places on the course that an unfamiliar rider could have taken the wrong direction:

    1) The obvious one right before the three sisters, especially if some riders already turned right in front of you, and you don't know that they ride a shorter course because they are junior ladies

    2) My strong guess: On Manzanita Road, the left turn to trail 76 could have been easily missed and that's a big short cut connecting to trail 32

    3) I think there is another hard-to-see left turn again on the far side of the course

    So I think the rider missed step 18 on this course description:

    http://www.seaotterclassic.com/index...ss_country.htm

    Ali

  71. #71
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    I don't know how this was a attributed to me

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    "Cutting the course would have been nearly impossible as he is unfamiliar with the area"

    I don't recall writing it nor did I find it posted.

    Misdirection on this course is simple matter as even the OP suggested he almost did it.

  72. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    "Cutting the course would have been nearly impossible as he is unfamiliar with the area"

    I don't recall writing it nor did I find it posted.

    Misdirection on this course is simple matter as even the OP suggested he almost did it.

    It's from a statement that you posted.

  73. #73
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    I got it

    It is from Craig Koenig's statement and not a statement of mine. I knew I hadn't said it. I think what Craig means is that Matthew didn't have the knowledge to take advantage of course cutting intentionally.

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex
    It's from a statement that you posted.
    He didnt use the Quote learn to read.
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  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dogonfr
    He didnt use the Quote learn to read.

    Huh?



    I'm not an idiot. I realize Berkley Mike's post was a statement from the family. It's just funny that Berkley Mike couldn't find where the quoted texted came from when it was actually from his post.

    /Thread

  76. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by 88 rex
    Huh?



    I'm not an idiot. I realize Berkley Mike's post was a statement from the family. It's just funny that Berkley Mike couldn't find where the quoted texted came from when it was actually from his post.

    /Thread
    I'm sure he understood what you meant
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  77. #77
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    I can be terrible at finding stuff right in front of me.

    It's pretty sad. It used to drive my dad nuts and my wife gives me nothing but grief for it. I can't find my glasses and they are on my head. I can find my shed because it has the beer opener nailed right by the door.

  78. #78
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    It's unlikely the "winner" wouldn't reasonably have known at that time "something" was up with his time and winning. No credit for fronting up once you get "caught" and exposed.
    No "credit" for making excuses.
    If a kid steals something from a shop we don't thank them for admitting it once they are caught.

    Let's be realistic about this. "We" don't allow other forms of credit theft do we?
    Copyright as an example. The winner has the right to be recognized as such and there is nothing wrong with the OP having bought this out in public. Far from it, He's done a HUGE service to the guy who "won" by forcing him to amend his behavior. There is absolutely no doubt in the guys mind now that he HAS to be 100% spot on with EVERY race from this point and what happened cannot be allowed to happen again. If he was allowed to get away with this he may get into a pattern which would ruin any chance he has at being recognized in the sport.

    It seems to me the OP wanted reasonable behaviour in the race and didn't find it. "They" took what steps they could to resolve it and couldn't so he raised it here. The direct response to this was the "winner" has had to deal with the issue VS getting away with doing the wrong thing.


    (I'm still laughing at the idiotic "cry for help" comment about the OP and assorted rubbish about him "whining")

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    It's pretty sad. It used to drive my dad nuts and my wife gives me nothing but grief for it. I can't find my glasses and they are on my head. I can find my shed because it has the beer opener nailed right by the door.
    I keep mine on the cutting board so I can find it, or at least I think I find it.
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  80. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    "Cutting the course would have been nearly impossible as he is unfamiliar with the area"
    See? You did it again!

    Ali

  81. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    That guy the won Cat II 25-29 was on a Delta 7 and beat me by 5:30 min. I had a chance to talk to him becuase I spoted his bike and medal at the Delta 7 booth. He told me that he normally races pro and he needed points to race expert. I say USA Cycling has some shitty rules. No wonder no one races it anymore on the dirt.

    The top 3 people race Pro (one of them in Super D) in the Cat II 25-29. I started a rant thread about it.
    Thats BS.All a person needs to do is send a letter to USA Cyling requesting a class advancment and 90% of the time it is accepted.Either way theres alwasy going to be sandbaggers at Sea Otter.I think the top five from cat 2 and 3 should have to move up the following year.

  82. #82
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    I just want to thank everyone for their input and am very glad it has been resolved.

  83. #83
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    You're all just jealous that the guy is so much faster than you.

  84. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkeley Mike
    It is a huge job.
    Sea Otter Registration Fees are also huge. Maybe they should reduce the field, and manage the races much better.
    beaver hunt

  85. #85
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    hahah yeah. That's definitely it

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    double post

    double post
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 05-08-2009 at 08:28 PM.

  87. #87
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    Or you can choose not to race there.

    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter
    Sea Otter Registration Fees are also huge. Maybe they should reduce the field, and manage the races much better.
    The NorCal High School Racing experience is far more refined than the Sea Otter production. With "only 400" racers we can sweat the small stuff pretty well and assure faithful results. We also provide a superior Pit set-up which accommodates our family style. It is important when you now the faces of all the racers...and their parents...and their coaches and, in some case, their grand parents. As such we no longer use Sea Otter in our series.
    We support the participation of our kids at Sea Otter with a NorCal presence. It is a great event and one not to be missed. We also support the racing of our kids but with caveat emptor.

    At the same time it is important to know that racers who come from outside NorCal HS Racing enter the League often with a very aggressive stance concerning the administration of races, rules, and results. I think that a function of having participated in other venues and other organizations where "fighting for your kid" can be survival behaviors. It is interesting to see that slowly disappear as they come to understand how much support and hard work goes into getting things right.

    I spoke to Jeff Shen, who was ultimately the winner of the race in question and congratulated him. He said thanks but it was not much of an issue with him. He did say, though, that he was glad to have the wheels. He may be gracious and a fine sport, things he has learned in the League, but he isn't stupid.

    Congrats to Alex on his race at GB2 this weekend, making the cut and having a nice set of laps. Just so you all know I did have to deal with an irate dad who son did not make the cut and there was no way to make him happy. Easy to understand as he was lobbying for his son, a fine young racer who has fought very hard in a very tough varsity Division to move up. He is about 4 places higher than Alex in the overall standings. He looked at my hat (Albany) and he said," hey; you're Berkeley Mike!" and his tone changed altogether. He still wasn't happy but he had a big firm handshake.
    Last edited by Berkeley Mike; 05-04-2009 at 06:22 PM.

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