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  1. #1
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    VP Free due in tomorrow!

    Got the shipping confirmation-the VP Free has been shipped and is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I'll post pics when it gets here! PattD

  2. #2
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    Nice...

    Did you order powdercoat or anodized? Oh, and who did you order from. Just curious since I have a frame on order through Cambria.
    "Without the ability to make moral distinctions based on motive, consequences, the ethical constructs of various parties, everything is equal, and you end up with people like Woody Allen: a tiny speck of compacted narcissism, revolving around the dead sun in an empty universe." - James Lileks

  3. #3
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    Joy!!!

    Looks like Santa Cruz got their april release date....just

    I ordered from Cambria too.

    PattD, when did you place your order?

  4. #4
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    VP-Free Chainline Caution

    I've got a VPF on order but I'm having second thoughts. I can't seem to pin down a good chainline solution. I've had two threads going with Santa Cruz and RaceFace and neither thread has resulted in a good solution for me. The SC thread is first below, followed by the RF. If anyone has a good suggestions for heavy duty cranks that will work on the VPFree. let me know. I'm not wild about the ones SC is suggesting.

    Santa Cruz thread:

    ----------------------------


    I've never tried running the Diabolus cranks so I do not have solid
    feedback
    for you there, but the VP-Free's optimal chainline measurement is 55mm.
    This
    means that you would want a measurement of 55mm from the center of the
    BB
    shell to the center of the chainring set-up you run.
    With a tripple ring used, this would be measured from the center of the
    BB
    to the centerline of the middle chainring.

    In our kits with a Single Ring and Chainguide, we use a 73x128 ISIS BB
    and
    ISIS cranks and a E13 guide.

    You may want to contact RF direct to see if Diabolus cranks have a BB
    spindle option long enough to work with the 55mm chainline standard.

    Thanks again, and let me know if you have any other questions.

    Scott Turner
    Santa Cruz Bicycles
    Santa Cruz, California
    scott@santacruzbicycles.com
    www.santacruzbicycles.com


    On 4/27/04 10:11 AM, ...@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    >
    > So would your derailleur adaptor and the Diabolus
    > cranks make for a good setup for my Free?
    >
    > ---------------
    >
    > --- Scott Turner wrote:
    >> Thanks for the info Rob!
    >>
    >> Scott
    >> SCB
    >>
    >> On 4/26/04 1:06 PM, ... @yahoo.com>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Thanks for the info. I've been considering the
    >>> RaceFace Diablous cranks and found some comments
    >> on
    >>> how they may be helpful setting up a 150mm VP-Free
    >>> (from MTBR):
    >>>
    >>> "The biggest difference is in the BB length: The
    >> Saint
    >>> cranks "tuck in" more towards the center of the
    >> frame,
    >>> effectively only having a 113mm ISIS equivalent bb
    >>> spindle, while the Raceface ones have roughly a
    >> 118mm
    >>> ISIS equivalent BB spindle.
    >>>
    >>> What this means is that you can fit stuff like
    >> chain
    >>> guides easier with the Raceface Diabolus cranks,
    >> as
    >>> there is about 3mm more room on each side.
    >>>
    >>> Also, I'm not sure if the Saint cranks can do this
    >> or
    >>> not (I simply don't know), but the Raceface
    >> X-drive
    >>> system can also "slide" the crank arms by about
    >> 7mm
    >>> across the frame, so you can run your cranks
    >> offset if
    >>> you need more room for chain guides.
    >>>
    >>> Also, this means that the Raceface cranks can
    >> easily
    >>> be set up for proper chainline with both 135mm and
    >>> 150mm rear hubs, because you can slew the cranks
    >>> towards the left or right side of the frame."
    >>>
    >>> ----------------------------------------------
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> --- Scott Turner
    >> wrote:
    >>>> For multiple (2 and 3) chain ring/front
    >> derailleur
    >>>> use the best set-up will
    >>>> be a Shimano e-type with our custom e-type
    >>>> clamp/locator and custom TruVativ
    >>>> BB for the VP-Free. This set-up will come in our
    >>>> VP-Free build kits with a
    >>>> TruVativ Holzfeller Double 22/32 w/ rock guard.
    >>>>
    >>>> If you are not getting the kit from us, you can
    >>>> order the clamp for an
    >>>> e-type derailleur and the custom BB from us for
    >> use
    >>>> with ISIS drive cranks.
    >>>> Just have your dealer order it with your frame.
    >>>>
    >>>> If you want to run a Double or Triple chain ring
    >>>> set-up and a clamp type
    >>>> front derailleur, use a 34.9 Top Pull/Top Swing
    >> and
    >>>> a 73x128mm BB. This will
    >>>> give you the best performance possible with a
    >> clamp
    >>>> type derailleur, but not
    >>>> as optimal as the above mentioned set-up that
    >> gets
    >>>> around the inherent
    >>>> problems with front derailleurs and long travel
    >>>> bikes.
    >>>>
    >>>> With a Single Ring and Chainguide, we use a
    >> 73x128
    >>>> ISIS BB and ISIS cranks
    >>>> and a E13 guide. Other Chainguides should works
    >> as
    >>>> well.
    >>>>
    >>>> All pretty confusing, but until component
    >>>> manufacturers (ie Shimano) come up
    >>>> with a new front derailleur design with more
    >>>> rotation for longer travel
    >>>> bikes, and a crank/bb standard to work with the
    >>>> 150mmx12mm standard
    >>>> hubs/chainline, we'll have to keep designing
    >>>> work-arounds.
    >>>>
    >>>> Thanks again, and let me know if you have any
    >> other
    >>>> questions.
    >>>>
    >>>> Scott Turner
    >>>> Santa Cruz Bicycles
    >>>> Santa Cruz, California
    >>>> scott@santacruzbicycles.com
    >>>> www.santacruzbicycles.com
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> On 4/16/04 2:25 PM, ...@yahoo.com>
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Thanks! What BB would be used with a standard
    >>>> 3-ring
    >>>>> 2003 XT crankset (as an example)?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> ----------------
    >>>>> --- Scott Turner
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>>> Hi Rob,
    >>>>>> VP-Free component sizes -
    >>>>>> *Seatpost ? 30.9mm
    >>>>>> *Front derailleur - 34.9mm Top Pull/Top Swing
    >> or
    >>>>>> E-type (Depending on chain
    >>>>>> ring config.)
    >>>>>> *Headset ? 1-1/8?
    >>>>>> *The correct BB size will depend on the
    >> specific
    >>>>>> cranks and chainring
    >>>>>> config. you run.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Thanks for your interest in Santa Cruz, and let
    >>>> me
    >>>>>> know if you have any
    >>>>>> other questions.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Scott Turner
    >>>>>> Santa Cruz Bicycles
    >>>>>> Santa Cruz, California
    >>>>>> scott@santacruzbicycles.com
    >>>>>> www.santacruzbicycles.com
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> On 4/15/04 1:34 PM, ....@yahoo.com>
    >>>>>> wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> The form was filled out with the following
    >>>> values:
    >>>>>>> recipient: info@santacruzbicycles.com
    >>>>>>> email: ...@yahoo.com
    >>>>>>> subject: component requirements for VP-Free
    >>>>>>> redirect: /contact/thankyou.asp
    >>>>>>> realname: Rob G.
    >>>>>>> message: Hi,
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> I have a VP-Free frame on order, and I need to
    >>>>>> round up components to go on
    >>>>>>> it. As punishment for your not having things
    >>>> like
    >>>>>> BB size, derailleur type,
    >>>>>>> etc. on your webpage, can you please email me
    >>>> the
    >>>>>> fit specs for all the
    >>>>>>> components I'll need?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Thanks!
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Rob G
    >>>>>>> submit: submit
    >>>>>>>

    RaceFace Thread:

    ---------------------------------


    From:
    "Warranty@raceface.com" Add to Address Book
    To:
    ...@yahoo.com'" < ...@yahoo.com>
    Subject:
    RE: Will the Diabolus crankset work on the new VP-Free?
    Date:
    Wed, 28 Apr 2004 11:05:48 -0700





    The 3mm adjustment allows your chainline to be adjusted from 48-50mm.



    cheers,

    RaceFace Warranty & Tech Services
    604.527.9996 x 249
    800.527.9959 x 249





    -----Original Message-----
    From: ...@yahoo.com [mailto: ...@yahoo.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 10:44 AM
    To: Warranty@raceface.com
    Subject: RE: Will the Diabolus crankset work on the new VP-Free?



    Would your "3mm of adjustability" be enough to make
    the Diabolus work on the VP-Free?

    ----------

    --- "Warranty@raceface.com"
    wrote:
    > Hi Rob,
    >
    > At this time our Diabolus X cranks are compatible
    > with 48-50mm chainline (68
    > or 73mm shell). Thanks for your email.
    >
    >
    >
    > cheers,
    >
    > RaceFace Warranty & Tech Services
    > 604.527.9996 x 249
    > 800.527.9959 x 249
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: ...@yahoo.com
    > [mailto: ...@yahoo.com]
    > Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2004 4:40 PM
    > To: warranty@raceface.com
    > Subject: Will the Diabolus crankset work on the new
    > VP-Free?
    >
    >
    > Hi,
    >
    > I'm trying to determine if the Diabolus crankset
    > will
    > work on a Santa Cruz VP-Free frame I have on order.
    > I
    > want to use two rings with an E13 chainguide. I got
    > this from Santa Cruz regarding the Diabolus:
    >
    > "...the VP-Free's optimal chainline measurement is
    > 55mm. This means that you would want a measurement
    > of
    > 55mm from the center of the BB shell to the center
    > of
    > the chainring set-up you run. With a tripple ring
    > used, this would be measured from the center of the
    > BB
    > to the centerline of the middle chainring.
    >
    > In our kits with a Single Ring and Chainguide, we
    > use
    > a 73x128 ISIS BB and ISIS cranks and a E13 guide.
    >
    > You may want to contact RF direct to see if Diabolus
    > cranks have a BB spindle option long enough to work
    > with the 55mm chainline standard."
    >
    >
    > Thanks for any insight you can give me.
    >
    > Rob G.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
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    Well...

    I saw your post here about the issue and emailed Scott Turner and got the same response as you did about the 55mm optimal chainline for the VP-Free. I am running the Diabolus cranks on a Bullit now and I think that they will work for the VP-Free (I plan to use them on mine when it shows up). I'm not sure what to say about the RF reply that you only have a 3mm chainline adjustment (48-50mm is only 2mm of adujsment anyway). The instructions that came with the crank say it has 6mm of adjustment, this seems to match the fact that there a six 1mm shims (2 black & 4 white) on the non-drive side at the 48mm setting. It could be that the 3mm adjusment (the instructions give specific information on the 48-50mm settings) are good for "any" frame where the other 4mm's are only do-able on a frame-by-frame basis (i.e. do the crank arms clear the frame).

    As for reaching the 55mm optimal chainline? You may not want to get too worked up about it, it's not like you are doomed if it's not 55mm. If you are on the short side on chainline the worst it will do is keep you from using the smallest cog or two, it depends on how far off you are. For me, I hardly ever use the 12T so losing it would not be a big deal.

    FYI, I run a single chainring with a chainguide.
    "Without the ability to make moral distinctions based on motive, consequences, the ethical constructs of various parties, everything is equal, and you end up with people like Woody Allen: a tiny speck of compacted narcissism, revolving around the dead sun in an empty universe." - James Lileks

  6. #6
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    Post results

    Please post results when you put the RF canks on your frame. I'm lots of folks will be interested :-)

  7. #7
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    Will do...

    Maybe you can get Santa Cruz to send me mine right away to help answer the question
    "Without the ability to make moral distinctions based on motive, consequences, the ethical constructs of various parties, everything is equal, and you end up with people like Woody Allen: a tiny speck of compacted narcissism, revolving around the dead sun in an empty universe." - James Lileks

  8. #8
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    Powder Coat & Cambria

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassdust
    Looks like Santa Cruz got their april release date....just

    I ordered from Cambria too.

    PattD, when did you place your order?

    Looks like you are in luck also! PattD

  9. #9
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    Whoops-forgot..

    Quote Originally Posted by PattD
    Looks like you are in luck also! PattD
    .

    Think I placed it in Feb.

  10. #10
    old school no.9
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    chainline...

    I had the same chainline issue when I tried to decide which cranks I would choose to my V10. After checking for specs for X-type Diabolus cranks and ISIS North Shores(BB with 128mm spindle) I ended up to get North Shores. Better to get right chainline and shift smoothly

    I hope RaceFace would release X-type version of Diabolus cranks with longer spindle that equals 128mm ISIS spindle and have the same chainline adjustments. Current Diabolus spindle seems to provide almost same chainline adjustments than 68/73 BB with 118mm ISIS spindle.

    Note that there also might be crank arm clearance issues with too narrow spindle on VP-free.
    Last edited by miqu; 04-29-2004 at 11:38 PM.
    I love the smell of the TF2 chain lube in the morning.

  11. #11
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    Yeah, Cambria!! I didn't make my order until the first week of March, but this gives me hope, cause I am bikeless at the moment!!

    Mine be a powdercoated trans red.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattD
    Got the shipping confirmation-the VP Free has been shipped and is scheduled to arrive tomorrow. I'll post pics when it gets here! PattD
    So, did you get the frame yet?

    Come on, give us some pics

    I need to see something to give me hope for mine

  13. #13
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    update on RF chainline capability

    [Hi Rob,

    Compatibility update, unfortunately you were the recipient of some
    outdated
    info, sorry about that. Although we're not 100% certain of the
    clearance on
    the VP-Free you will be able to obtain a 54mm chain line with the
    Diabolus
    set-up. That should be close enough to work with the VP-Free. Thanks.



    cheers,

    RaceFace Warranty & Tech Services
    604.527.9996 x 249
    800.527.9959 x 249

  14. #14
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    Much better...

    It's good to see them working with the updated information, what they originally sent you just did not sound right (it is a new product). Also saw this article that might give you comfort:

    http://www.nsmb.com/gear/diaboluscranks_04_04.php

    Because of the unusual chainring/chainguide setup he only needed to run to like 52 or 53mm on the chainline.
    "Without the ability to make moral distinctions based on motive, consequences, the ethical constructs of various parties, everything is equal, and you end up with people like Woody Allen: a tiny speck of compacted narcissism, revolving around the dead sun in an empty universe." - James Lileks

  15. #15
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    Got it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bassdust
    So, did you get the frame yet?

    Come on, give us some pics

    I need to see something to give me hope for mine

    Will try and post pics tonight at home. It's sooooo sweet though!

    PattD

  16. #16
    Card Carrying Member
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    I'll be hitting my reload button until it's posted.

  17. #17
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    Thanks!

    Thanks, that was good info.

  18. #18
    Tear it all out! SuperModerator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarpon
    ...I am running the Diabolus cranks on a Bullit now ...
    How are they working for you? How long have you had them?

    I killed my cranks at Whistler on Saturday, so need to replace them. (Pedal threads stripped out of non-drive crank.) I've been going through RF Signature Isis FR BB bearings in less than a year so maybe it is time to change to something else.

  19. #19
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    Has anybody had any luck with this combo yet? Any pics of it in operation?

    The above reply from Scott at Santa Cruz is the EXACT one that he gave me with my same question on the subject. It looks like he just did a cut and paste of when he answered you and the answered me with the same.

    Attached is my original question and replies from Santa Cruz, Race Face and EVIL/e-thirteen.


    My original question:

    > There is some talk of the front derailer angle making it so that the cable
    > rubs the frame. Is this true?
    > Also, There is a review of this bike in the new Mountain Buke Action and I
    > believe that it mentions an E-type derailer.
    > I would like to run a standard front derailer and your spec page states a
    > 34.9mm, but will I get better results with an e-type? Is this how to avoid the
    > cable rub?
    >
    > Also, I am hoping to run this with an e-thirteen DRS chain guide and the new
    > RaceFace X-drive cranks. The same review in MBA also mentions
    > something about a special burly frame spacer for the BB area that is supplied
    > with the frame? Frame spacer, e-type derailer, boomerang from DRS guide? All
    > of this is making me visualize alot of shiz taking place in this region.
    > Am I overreacting or am I going to have problems. I do not want to have to
    > grind the DRS or anything like that. Surely there has been a VP-Free assembled
    > with the new RaceFace X-drive cranks (Diabolus or Atlas). Perhaps you could
    > shed some light on this? I have been told by the e-thirteen guys that this
    > should not be a problem.



    Santa Cruz Reply:

    We have not actually tried to run a set, but it looks like the Race Face
    X-Type/Diabolus cranks will not work correctly with the VP-Free, due to
    chainline adjustment issues.
    In the Diabolus installation instructions it states that you cannot use the
    spacers to adjust chainline with 73mm BB shell widths, which is what you
    would need to do to get correct chainline with the VP-Free.
    You can run Race Face ISIS Drive cranks.

    The VP-Free's optimal chainline measurement is 55mm.
    This means that you would want a measurement of 55mm from the center of the
    BB shell to the center of the chainring set-up you run. With a single ring
    used, this would be measured from the center of the BB to the centerline of
    the single chainring.

    For multiple chain ring/front derailleur use the best set-up will be a
    Shimano e-type with our custom e-type clamp/locator and custom TruVativ BB
    for the VP-Free (This is shown in one of the pics on the MTBR link you sent
    me) This set-up will come in our VP-Free build kits with a TruVativ
    Holzfeller Double 22/32 w/ rock guard.

    If you are not getting the kit from us, you can order the clamp for an
    e-type derailleur and the custom BB from us for use with ISIS drive cranks.
    Just have your dealer order it with your frame.

    If you want to run a Double or Triple chain ring set-up and a clamp type
    front derailleur, use a 34.9 Top Pull/Top Swing and a 73x128mm BB. This will
    give you the best performance possible with a clamp type derailleur, but not
    as optimal as the above mentioned set-up (e-type) that gets around the
    inherent problems with front derailleurs and long travel bikes.

    With a Single Ring and Chainguide, we use a 73x128 ISIS BB and ISIS cranks
    and a E13 guide. Other Chainguides (MRP, etc) should work as well.

    All pretty confusing, but until component manufacturers (ie Shimano) come up
    with a new front derailleur design with more rotation for longer travel
    bikes, and a crank/bb standard to work with the 150mmx12mm standard
    hubs/chainline, we'll have to keep designing work-arounds.

    Thanks for choosing Santa Cruz, and let me know if you have any other
    questions.

    Scott Turner
    Santa Cruz Bicycles
    Santa Cruz, California
    scott@santacruzbicycles.com
    www.santacruzbicycles.com



    RaceFace Reply:

    There are a couple of points here that need 'clarification'. First the Diabolus chainline can be adjusted with a 73mm BB shell. BB shell size and spacers HAVE NO AFFECT ON CHAINLINE. Secondly, the Diabolus crankset has a chainline adjustment range of 48mm to 54mm, plenty wide enough for a 150mm rear hub. The Diabolus crankset is also E-Type compatible, however the issue with Shimano derailleurs not having enough rotational adjustment will still be an issue at the widest chainlines if you want to run a triple ring setup. The primary issue with setting up Diabolus cranks on a VP Free is non-drive crank clearance. With the chainline at it's wideset, the non-drive crank will be closer to the frame and there is the possibility that the crank will interfere with the chainstays or the suspension pivots. We have not been able to install Diabolus crankset on a VP Free, so we cannot say for certain whether it will work or not.

    Thanks for your email.


    cheers,

    RaceFace Warranty & Tech Services
    604.527.9996 x 249
    800.527.9959 x 249



    EVIL/e-thirteen Reply:

    You should be all set. The cranks will fit fine. If you do run into any issues that I haven't foreseen please feel free to get back in touch.
    Jonas

  20. #20
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    Also, if nobody has any luck, I am hoping that the guys at Speedgoat can answer some questions. They are doing a step by step build on the VP-Free which is very cool and their next step is installing X-drive Diabolus cranks.

    I am hoping that they do not run into the problems mentioned in this thread and give up to install a typical ISIS drive or something because they know it will work easier. I sent them an e-mail expressing my interest in the follow through with the Diabolus and I encourage others here to do the same so we can be sure that they know that many people are interested in this.

    Here is the link to the build up:
    http://www.speedgoat.com/feature-vpfree.asp

  21. #21
    Tear it all out! SuperModerator
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    I know this isn't what you asked, but I just set up a set of Diabolus cranks with a E13 DRS on a Bullit.

    I took about 3 or 4 times before things looked right. First problem was that the LBS who faced the BB shell installed the guide plate & spacer in the wrong order so that the granny chain ring bolts rubbed on the guide plate.

    With the self extracting bolt, the drive side crank comes on and off pretty easily.

    The only tools you need are a rubber mallet, the special Park BB tool, and a long handle 8mm Allen key.

    You might also need a 10mm Allen key if you want to remove the self extracting bolt cap so that you can really lube the threads on the crank bolt.

    The RF instructions that come with the crank are good, and easy to follow.

  22. #22
    Feeding your addiction
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    Pics of Patt D's VP Free frame....

    This is Patt's frame mentioned above, took a few shots of the bare frame, it's in my shop getting ready to be built. Weight is 10.5lbs if anyone is interested in that (size large).
    Larry Mettler
    http://www.mtnhighcyclery.com
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Ventanarama; 06-02-2004 at 08:53 AM.
    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by PattD
    Will try and post pics tonight at home. It's sooooo sweet though!

    PattD
    congrats man! That is prolly the sweetest FS I've seen in a while (although the LBS has a blue ano V10 in thats' pretty trick). have a blast and ride the snot outta that thing!
    though hope is frail, it must prevail - Taj Weekes

    betam eh-wud-eh-HA-lehu y
    eh-nay Ityopia!

  24. #24
    Tear it all out! SuperModerator
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    What size? (It looks like part of your post was cut off.)

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigH
    What size? (It looks like part of your post was cut off.)
    Size large, edited above also. Thanks
    Larry
    "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity". - Dave Barry

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