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  1. #1326
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    Quote Originally Posted by usernamehere View Post
    Question:
    Who else has found the rp23 to wallow in the travel ? I rode the butcher for 6 months and it seemed that too much psi was stiff and no bump absorption and otherwise it sinks to almost 60%
    To be honest, it has caused me to strip the bike and all the components went onto a carbon 456 from on one. I know the butcher is a great bike , but am I the only one with this issue?
    Coil shock solves that on the butcher.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
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  2. #1327
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    Coil shock solves that on the butcher.
    And creates other problems. The APPs weren't designed for coils.
    '96 San Andreas
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  3. #1328
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    Quote Originally Posted by usernamehere View Post
    Question:
    Who else has found the rp23 to wallow in the travel ? I rode the butcher for 6 months and it seemed that too much psi was stiff and no bump absorption and otherwise it sinks to almost 60%
    To be honest, it has caused me to strip the bike and all the components went onto a carbon 456 from on one. I know the butcher is a great bike , but am I the only one with this issue?
    No you aren't alone. The trails I ride have a mixture of flowing XC, chatter, rock gardens and drops. The Float never did well when I mixed terrain. I'd run it softer for the chatter and it would wallow when pedaling or at high speed and then proceed to bottom out on small drops. Run it at a higher PSI and the bike was all over the place. Just installed a Monarch WC and it has made a huge difference so far.

    You can try reducing the volume in the stock float first and see if it helps. Going to try this on my SL29 soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    Coil shock solves that on the butcher.
    Kind of a waste on a 150mm bike with active shock curve already built into it.
    SC:12' Butcher (sold)
    SC:12' Superlight 29er (sold)
    SC:12' Juliana (wife's)
    SC:12' TBLT

  4. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by rinconjake680 View Post
    Nickel lg
    fox talas 140 terralogic
    fox float R
    1x9 w/deore crank
    32x12-36
    xt brakes 160r/180f
    I9 torch/arch ex/nobby nic 650b x 2.25
    28.46 pounds (with mallet pedals)
    Is your Fork a dedicated 650B fork or like some people I know who manage to use 650B wheels and slimmer tires on a 26inch Fox fork as there is enough space between the tires and the Fork arch/bridge?
    Last edited by vjrk77; 02-28-2013 at 06:25 PM.

  5. #1330
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    Im running a Fox FIT 140, 26" fork with 650b Sunringle Pro Charger wheels, setup with 2.25 Racing Ralphs. All fits good! Id love to try the 2.35 Hans Dampf as well.

    And as has been said many times, the Nickel is killer as a 650b bike!

  6. #1331
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    anyone using a different rear shock than the stock Fox?

  7. #1332
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    This would be interesting: A Nickel with a 27.5" front wheel a 26" rear wheel and a 57mm stroke shock in the back.
    '96 San Andreas
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  8. #1333
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    [QUOTE=Mountain Cycle Shawn;10197904]And creates other problems. The APPs weren't designed for coils.[/Quote

    Nonsense. What "other problems?" Have you tried a coil on the butcher? app leverage curve on the butcher is almost identical to that of teh Nomad; which many agree works very well with coil. it is "softest' (highest leverage ratio) about 35% into teh stroke, right where some air shocks also wallow and the two effects can combine. Linearity of a good coil shock can mitigate this. ive run a xfusion vector hlr coil on my butcher for a year and it feels really good, buttery off the top,smooth and controlled through the midstroke yet doesnt bottom out because the bikes leverage ratio decreases towards the end of travel. Still pedals awesome. i like it a lot better than the rp3 it came with. When the bike was still on sc's site it stated it could be run with either air or coil. however, I weigh 210 and never really got on well with air shocks. People results may vary but coil shocks can ceratinly work on this bike
    Last edited by dwyooaj; 03-01-2013 at 09:02 AM.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
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  9. #1334
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    ^ Shock rate decreases at the end and leverage ratio increases at the end. There is a difference. That's why air shocks work better on the APP, deep in the travel.
    '96 San Andreas
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  10. #1335
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    From the horses mouth:

    "Can I use a coil shock on the Butcher?

    Definitely- there is clearance for a coil shock or DHX Air. The suspension curve was primarily designed around air suspension, but if you are a coil fanatic, go right ahead. Smaller frame sizes may require the shock to be flipped around, so check clearance with your shock before riding."
    SC:12' Butcher (sold)
    SC:12' Superlight 29er (sold)
    SC:12' Juliana (wife's)
    SC:12' TBLT

  11. #1336
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    You could bolt a coil on to your horse up there. It doesn't mean it's going to work good. Coils are old technology and most of them can't be tuned as well as an air shock. Even the dirt bike world is moving to air suspension. Embrace the air man! A good air shock works really well. You just have to get away from the Fox crap.
    '96 San Andreas
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  12. #1337
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    Quote: Shock rate decreases at the end and leverage ratio increases at the end. There is a difference. That's why air shocks work better on the APP, deep in the travel." Quote

    Wrong, leverage ratio starts off low, increases till near midpoint, then decreases towards the end (except for a tiny increase at the very very end, which is inconsequential). what you described is the opposite, that of dw-link bikes. SC has always marketed the vpp(and app) curve as being the opposite of dw link.

    See below:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/s...0_levratio.jpg

    And I dont use the fox crap, I have a rockshox vivid on my blindside and a xfusion vector hlr on teh butcher, one of the most tuneable coil shocks out there, hardly 'old technology".
    On the dw-link bike I had, air worked better than coil. Im not saying Im entirely opposed to air shocks, just that one shouldnt completely dimiss a good coil shock (depending on the bike) and its been my experience that a coil works well on the butcher. I do, however, want to try an xfusion vetor air on it one of these days.
    Last edited by dwyooaj; 02-28-2013 at 09:32 AM.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
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  13. #1338
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    ^ Shock rate decreases at the end and leverage ratio increases at the end. There is a difference. That's why air shocks work better on the APP, deep in the travel.


    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    Quote: Shock rate decreases at the end and leverage ratio increases at the end. There is a difference. That's why air shocks work better on the APP, deep in the travel." Quote

    Wrong, leverage ratio starts off low, increases till near midpoint, then decreases towards the end (except for a tiny increase at the very very end, which is inconsequential). what you described is the opposite, that of dw-link bikes. SC has always marketed the vpp(and app) curve as being the opposite of dw link.

    See below:
    http://forums.mtbr.com/attachments/s...0_levratio.jpg

    And I dont use the fox crap, I have a rockshox vivid on my blindside and a xfusion vector hlr on teh butcher, one of the most tuneable coil shocks out there, hardly 'old technology".
    On the dw-link bike I had, air worked better than coil. Im not saying Im entirely opposed to air shocks, just that one shouldnt completely dimiss a good coil shock (depending on the bike) and its been my experience that a coil works well on the butcher. I do, however, want to try an xfusion vetor air on it one of these days.
    Again, you guys are getting leverage and shock ratio confused. Take the shock off and cycle the suspension. The link moves fast at first (higher leverage ratio), then it slows down (lower leverage ratio), then it speeds up at the end (higher leverage ratio).
    '96 San Andreas
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  14. #1339
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    Now I'm getting confused. I think we'er pretty much in agreement.
    '96 San Andreas
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  15. #1340
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    The higher leverage ratio at the end is not inconsequential. It's there for a reason.

    And saying the leverage ratio starts low is misleading. It just starts at a certain point and goes from there. It goes up, flattens out and goes up again at the end.
    '96 San Andreas
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  16. #1341
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    Hhhmmm, I would trust dwyooaj at this topic. If you have a look at the suspension design at linkage, then it is what he says....

  17. #1342
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobiwan View Post
    Hhhmmm, I would trust dwyooaj at this topic. If you have a look at the suspension design at linkage, then it is what he says....
    Just remember that leverage and shock ratio are the opposite of each other. So, when you talk ratios you have to say which one you are talking about. If the leverage ratio is going up the suspension will get softer, all other things being equal.
    '96 San Andreas
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  18. #1343
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    Which is why i posted up that graph of leverage ratio vs, travel, which illustrates my description of the app curve, which is the opposite of what you described previously. Im not the one who has leverage ratio confused with shock ratio. if you look at the graph, LR goes from 2.3 at beginning to 2.5 near the middle to 2.26 at 142 mm, then very slighly back up to 2.28 for that last 10 mm. the overall shape of the curve is low to high to low, which dictates the behavior of the suspension. im still waiting to hear the specific problems of a good coil shock on the butcher. especially since Im the one with the experience of riding one that way since sept '11 and havent noticed any.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
    '11 transition blindside

  19. #1344
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    Which is why i posted up that graph of leverage ratio vs, travel, which illustrates my description of the app curve, which is the opposite of what you described previously. Im not the one who has leverage ratio confused with shock ratio.
    Where I am confused is where you are saying I'm wrong, but you're saying the same thing I am saying. Tell me where its the opposite of what I described. When you said I was wrong, all I said at that point is that the leverage ration increases at the end, which you also said it does.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
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  20. #1345
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    "Shock rate decreases at the end and leverage ratio increases at the end. There is a difference. That's why air shocks work better on the APP, deep in the travel."

    When you wrote this. I guess it depends on what one means by "end" Even though lr increases a tiny bit at the very very end, i think we can disregard that since it decreases from 35% into the travel until 95% into the travel. (how often is one in that last 5% of travel, especially with an air shock on a bike with this kind of curve?). it seems like you meant it increases from around midpoint on, which is incorrect. The most important part of a bikes LR curve is between 25% (sag point) to about 80%

    Im not saying good air shocks suck on this bike. just that some air shocks wallow right where the butcher's inherent suspension curve wallows and the two factors may add up in some cases, like "usernamehere's" experience. My experience with a coil on this bike has been very positive (and I have also used air), and the graph of the curve also bodes well for coil shocks; and perhaps "usernamehere" might at least try one before stripping the butcher and riding a hardtail instead.

    on my old banshee rune v1, just like dw bikes the curve was the oppositte of vpp (lowest in the middle) and at first I ran a coil, and it seemed firm in midstroke but still bottomed out easily. When i put in an air shock, the "wallow" point of the shock seemed to exactly cancel out the firm part (lowest LR) near midstroke so it felt better and more linear (plus more rampup at the end). Still didnt like the stiction at begining of stroke with the air. But then the rune cracked, replaced under warranty and then the pivots ate themselves! Replaced with the Butcher and i like it better.
    Im not trying to be adversarial, just trying to illustrate my point, and I think my opnion on this should carry some weight because i actually have experience with this particular setup, and have backed it up with a leverage graph and a description of whats happening with either kind of shock with the app curve, and now also with the opposite dw curve. But everyone likes different stuff so YMMV. I maintain that the app and vpp curves can be well suited to coil shocks. And air shocks, the butchers curve isnt really that radical it only varies from 2.26 to 2.5 so it can work well with either. DW link, not so much!
    can you tell im stuck inside today cuz its too windy to ride?
    Last edited by dwyooaj; 02-28-2013 at 11:20 AM.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
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  21. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    And saying the leverage ratio starts low is misleading. It just starts at a certain point and goes from there. It goes up, flattens out and goes up again at the end.
    It goes up, goes back down to where it started, then up a very small amount at the very end. And JC, I just meant it started low within the context of that graph, not that it was low compared to other bikes or something.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
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  22. #1347
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    "Shock rate decreases at the end and leverage ratio increases at the end. There is a difference. That's why air shocks work better on the APP, deep in the travel."

    When you wrote this. I guess it depends on what one means by "end" Even though lr increases a tiny bit at the very very end, i think we can disregard that since it decreases from 35% into the travel until 95% into the travel. i think its pretty clear you meant that it increases from midpoint on. (how often is one in that last 5% of travel, especially with an air shock on a bike with this kind of curve?). The most important part of a bikes LR curve is between 25% (sag point) to about 80%

    Im not saying good air shocks suck on this bike. just that some air shocks wallow right where the butcher's inherent suspension curve wallows and the two factors may add up in some cases, like "usernamehere's" experience. My experience with a coil on this bike has been very positive (and I have also used air), and the graph of the curve also bodes well for coil shocks; and perhaps "usernamehere" might at least try one before stripping the butcher and riding a hardtail instead.

    on my old banshee rune v1, just like dw bikes the curve was the oppositte of vpp (lowest in the middle) and at first I ran a coil, and it seemed firm in midstroke but still bottomed out easily. When i put in an air shock, the "wallow" point of the shock seemed to exactly cancel out the firm part (lowest LR) near midstroke so it felt better and more linear (plus more rampup at the end). Still didnt like the stiction at begining of stroke with the air. But then the rune cracked, replaced under warranty and then the pivots ate themselves! Replaced with the Butcher and i like it better.
    Im not trying to be adversarial, just trying to illustrate my point, and I think my opnion on this should carry some weight because i actually have experience with this particular setup, and have backed it up with a leverage graph and a description of whats happening with either kind of shock with the app curve, and now also with the opposite dw curve. But everyone likes different stuff so YMMV. I maintain that the app and vpp curves can be well suited to coil shocks. And air shocks, the butchers curve isnt really that radical it only varies from 2.26 to 2.5 so it can work well with either. DW link, not so much!
    can you tell im stuck inside today cuz its too windy to ride?
    Oh no, I know exactly where it goes up, where it goes down and where it goes up again. And that little going up at the very end: It's there for a reason.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
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  23. #1348
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    Still waiting for the specific problems with coil shock on the butcher that I suppose ive been blissfully unaware of for 1 1/2 years. I believe Ive at least tried to be specific in suggesting why that one guy had wallowing problems and why a good coil shock may solve that and work well, at least it has for me and my weight.
    BTw some of my riding buddies have tried my bike and were surprised at how good
    the rear end felt. Hey, it could just be im misinterpreting this and that the xfusion shock is just so good it works well on any bike!
    My last post here.
    Last edited by dwyooaj; 02-28-2013 at 11:44 AM.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
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  24. #1349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Oh no, I know exactly where it goes up, where it goes down and where it goes up again. And that little going up at the very end: It's there for a reason.
    then why did you say it goes up, flattens out, and then goes up again? Clearly incorrect according to the graph. Unless you just left out the part about LR going back down from 35% of travel to 95% of travel. I maintain that LR going up a very tiny bit for the last 8 mm is not an important part of how the suspension feels during 99% of riding a butcher. bTW, according to that graph, the nickel and blur lt dont have that little upturn at the end, so according to what youre saying then those are not designed for air shocks? I believe the very small upturn at the end of the butchers curve may simply be an artifact of the geometry of the links which was deemed somewhat inconsequential by the designer, for the benefit of the rest (important part) of the overall shape of the curve. and sc clearly stated bike was designed to work with either.
    '14 rocky mountain altitude, rally edition
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  25. #1350
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    Still waiting for the specific problems with coil shock on the butcher that I suppose ive been blissfully unaware of for 1 1/2 years. I believe Ive at least tried to be specific in suggesting why that one guy had wallowing problems and why a good coil shock may solve that and work well, at least it has for me and my weight.
    BTw some of my riding buddies have tried my bike and were surprised at how good
    the rear end felt. Hey, it could just be im misinterpreting this and that the xfusion shock is just so good it works well on any bike!
    My last post here.
    Hey, If it works for you then knock yourself out. You argue with me when I agree with you. I hate to see what happens when we disagree.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

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