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  1. #1
    Och aye the noo
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    Butcher and Nickel. The end?

    There is a rumour going about that Santa Cruz are ceasing production of the Butcher and Nickel.

    Does anyone know anything about this or is it just idle gossip?

  2. #2
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    Hi, if you don't mind me asking, where did this rumour come from?

    To be honest, I don't know why SC haven't done more with the APP format, but maybe they're just not selling as well as the single pivot and VPPs?

    In my opinion the APP is excellent and it would be a massive shame for SC not to do more with it. I stll really love riding my Nickel and as I've said before and will say again, I prefer it to the SC VPP bikes.

  3. #3
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    If its true then it's sad....

  4. #4
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    Clicky linky

    Not sure if it's true or not. Just wanted to know if anyone else had heard anything.

  5. #5
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    Thanks, hmm not sure I'd trust what I read on that forum until it actually happens but lets see...

    As lazymuf says, it'll be sad if it's true...

  6. #6
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    Thanks, hmm not sure I'd trust what I read on that forum until it actually happens but lets see...
    The guy seemed pretty convincing, but as you say, we'll see.

    It would be a shame, love the Butcher in Tic Tac Orange.

  7. #7
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    SC are stopping production with none on the water due to not being able to produce enough carbon frames and not selling as many nickels and butchers due to blurs nomads etc being more popular.
    Anyone want to translate the bolded section into English and explain how that is relevant to the Nickel and Butcher?......

    not saying he doesnt know what hes talking about, but that part doesnt make any sense at all

  8. #8
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    Ahhh yes, Singletrack Forums. That bastion of all truth in mountain bike reporting with it's riveting analysis and literary quality.

    Both bikes are still on their site. I would not sweat it. Now go ride.
    "Everything popular is wrong." -Oscar Wilde

  9. #9
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    Lol

  10. #10
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    You'll know it's true when SC makes an announcement and the APP bikes disappear from their website.

    Having said that if they aren't selling enough APP bikes the cost/hassle to stock/service those models may not be worth it. There is definitely something to be said for a simple easy to understand product line.

    The Heckler - Nomad AL - Nomad C is a pretty good spread of cost and function in the All Mtn Category.
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  11. #11
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    butcher is on the cover of bike magazine this month
    here we go again

  12. #12
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    The hideous new graphics can't have helped matters.


    Some confirmation below.

    Santa Cruz :: News from 18 Bikes :: 18 Bikes Web Shop
    Last edited by honourablegeorge; 05-22-2012 at 04:58 AM.

  13. #13
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    Cmon Mike...just break it to us........

  14. #14
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    If they are not selling well perhaps SC might dump them on hucknroll/chainove and some poor sap who was looking to get one cheap will luck out. Too bad they seemed like a good blend of affordability and function, maybe it is just wasn't the right time. Nowadays it seems people either have money to spend or they don't.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by danglingmanhood View Post
    If they are not selling well perhaps SC might dump them on hucknroll/chainove and some poor sap who was looking to get one cheap will luck out. Too bad they seemed like a good blend of affordability and function, maybe it is just wasn't the right time. Nowadays it seems people either have money to spend or they don't.
    I just don't think they were attractive bikes, relative to the competition at the same price point - the likes of the Transition Covert and Yeti ASR5 are selling like hot cakes for similar money. Neither of them have the "budget" tag associated with them either, which APP has, by default.

    Looks count for a lot too, and whoever made the decision to launch the butcher in the hideous brown colour, and then the awful new decasl - that's who I'd blame.



  16. #16
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    Well... that was quick. I personally like the chocolate brown paint.
    "It looks flexy"

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gticlay View Post
    Well... that was quick. I personally like the chocolate brown paint.


    I prefer the brown to the colour shown currently on the SC site.

    I do agree with the poster above that the challenge is differentiating the Butcher from the AL Nomad in a way that makes sense.

    If someone wants to save $$ the Heckler makes a ton of sense.

    If they have money to spend the Nomad is pretty much a legend by now.

    It's not a question of whether or not the Butcher is a great bike. It's a question of distilling that down into an easy to digest message that can be conveyed in 60 seconds on the SC website or on the sales floor at a LBS.
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  18. #18
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    fwiw, having owned both a heckler and and a butcher, I think the butcher is a much more refined bike; stronger frame, better suspension curve, perfect all-around geo with a 6" fork, and less lateral flex due to the extra links, for not a whole lot more $ than a heckler. Too bad if this is true, but if theyre not selling well thats the way it goes i guess. Hope sc will keep stocking replacement links/bearings/axles because I plan on riding mine until it breaks, which might be a looong time. I cant believe it doesnt sell well, 90% of a Nomad at 60% of the price...
    There goes my hope of a 7" travel APP bike. Rats.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    fwiw, having owned both a heckler and and a butcher, I think the butcher is a much more refined bike; stronger frame, better suspension curve, perfect all-around geo with a 6" fork, and less lateral flex due to the extra links, for not a whole lot more $ than a heckler. Too bad if this is true, but if theyre not selling well thats the way it goes i guess. Hope sc will keep stocking replacement links/bearings/axles because I plan on riding mine until it breaks, which might be a looong time. I cant believe it doesnt sell well, 90% of a Nomad at 60% of the price...
    There goes my hope of a 7" travel APP bike. Rats.
    Heckler's really are pretty flexy bikes. But they look cooler
    "It looks flexy"

  20. #20
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    There's something to be said for a simplified product line. I was kind of surprised when the APP bikes were introduced, since Santa Cruz already had the single pivot and VPP designs. Promoting three different designs seems like a difficult thing to do from a marketing perspective, even if they're all solid products. Probably why no other manufacturer, at least that I can think of, has attempted it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLBELLY View Post
    Ahhh yes, Singletrack Forums. That bastion of all truth in mountain bike reporting with it's riveting analysis and literary quality.

    Both bikes are still on their site. I would not sweat it. Now go ride.
    As a user of both forums I'm yet to see anything which elevates this place above stw.

    If anything this place is worse as it's rampant with fanboi-ism.

    I always thought the nickel would struggle in light of it's weight to travel ratio which is pretty off-putting on paper. I'm surprised at the butcher though.

  22. #22
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    It just seems to me that the APP bikes attempt to fill a void that isn't really there in the first place . . .
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  23. #23
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    Love my Nickel ! I guess now it is destined to become a "classic".

  24. #24
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    i expected them to phase out the single pivot bikes once the app were established. they make more sense in that context but i guess they were never really cheap enough for the low end

  25. #25
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    Just spoken to my local SC dealer, he told me that Santa Cruz sent out a clearance list last week and that the Nickel and Butcher are no more.

    I'm glad I've still got one though!

  26. #26
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    Instant classics I guess. People are just saving more for nomads. SC will continue to stand by there product with replacement parts and such.

  27. #27
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    Time to start watching chainlove for deals on spare/wife/girlfriend frames?

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just J View Post
    Just spoken to my local SC dealer, he told me that Santa Cruz sent out a clearance list last week and that the Nickel and Butcher are no more.

    I'm glad I've still got one though!
    With 650B bikes coming next year things are going to get complicated for every brand. Trying to keep the message simple and understandable with 3 wheel sizes will be tough.

    Maybe SC is just making some room for those new 650B models?

    At some point there will be a couple new trail and AM SC 650B bikes.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    With 650B bikes coming next year things are going to get complicated for every brand. Trying to keep the message simple and understandable with 3 wheel sizes will be tough.

    Maybe SC is just making some room for those new 650B models?

    At some point there will be a couple new trail and AM SC 650B bikes.
    Aah good point, I hadn't thought about that!

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by rox View Post
    i expected them to phase out the single pivot bikes once the app were established. they make more sense in that context but i guess they were never really cheap enough for the low end
    thats what i expected too. the Butcher/nickel is soooo worth the extra 300 over the heckler/superlite. I think sc should get rid of the heckler and superlite, keep the app bikes and just drop their price by a hundred bucks or so. Even at their current price, theyre not terribly expensive (cheaper than the '10 Banshee Rune i had before, and dont even get me started on what a piece of *** that frame was). I love my butcher, for the money its one of the best aggressive trail bikes out there and Im bummed that the app bikes werent successful for SC. I hope they at least made back the R&D they put into APP. That was a short run, APP only came out 2 years ago!
    One more thing, others mentioned the covert as a similar bike thats doing well and at one point I was really torn between that and the butcher. I like Transitions and I own a blindside but the suspension curve, leverage ratio, and tighter geo on the butcher appealed to me more. 2" stroke shock on a 6" bike means 3:1 leverage ratio, no bueno for #220 me. Seriously Tr, plenty of room for a bigger shock in there.
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  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    With 650B bikes coming next year things are going to get complicated for every brand. Trying to keep the message simple and understandable with 3 wheel sizes will be tough.

    Maybe SC is just making some room for those new 650B models?

    At some point there will be a couple new trail and AM SC 650B bikes.

    but its okay for them to have 7 29ers...
    actually, when they recently came out with 2 new twenyniners and neitehr were APP I had an idea app was on the way out.
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  32. #32
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    I wonder if the excellent performance of the APP bikes are stealing the thunder of their VPP bikes. It's never good to have a lower end product overtake the popularity of your flagship product.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    I wonder if the excellent performance of the APP bikes are stealing the thunder of their VPP bikes. It's never good to have a lower end product overtake the popularity of your flagship product.
    I highly doubt that's the issue.

    My guess is that the benefits of APP over a standard single-pivot bike were not realized by the masses. A substantial majority of people out there looking at single-pivot bikes are going to throw a leg over in a parking lot, maybe drop off a curb and both bikes are going to feel the same to the general biker, many of whom may be buying their first FS frame. When faced with a more complicated and more expensive design that feels the same as something cheaper and simpler, what do you think MOST people are going to pick?

    One of the things thats really easy to do is forget that the people who browse these boards are a VERY different class of biker, and do not represent that lionshare of MTB consumers . . . not even close. While many people here would be able to immediately recognize the benefits of APP over a SP frame, most people can't/won't.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    I highly doubt that's the issue.

    My guess is that the benefits of APP over a standard single-pivot bike were not realized by the masses. A substantial majority of people out there looking at single-pivot bikes are going to throw a leg over in a parking lot, maybe drop off a curb and both bikes are going to feel the same to the general biker, many of whom may be buying their first FS frame. When faced with a more complicated and more expensive design that feels the same as something cheaper and simpler, what do you think MOST people are going to pick?

    One of the things thats really easy to do is forget that the people who browse these boards are a VERY different class of biker, and do not represent that lionshare of MTB consumers . . . not even close. While many people here would be able to immediately recognize the benefits of APP over a SP frame, most people can't/won't.
    That was my "Heckler looks cooler" comment purpose.
    "It looks flexy"

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    Three suspension platforms is alot to differentiate within a single brand and so it appears the middle child had to go. SC gave the APP a go and produced two excellent bikes but unfortunately "the market" didn't get it.

    I suspect at least part of the APP's downfall was the frame weight. I never really understood why the APP frames are that much heavier than the roughly equivalent SP frames (i.e. Butcher v. Heckler and Nickel v. Superlight although not quite apples to apples on the latter).

    Most of the reviews for the new Superlight 29er have been very positive but with the one weakness being it has a flexy rear. Something an APP set up would have no doubt addressed.

  36. #36
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    Yup I think it was a shame they didn't launch an APP 29er instead of the superlight but hey ho maybe that's why I don't own Santa Cruz?!

  37. #37
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    Well hopefully if they do drop the APP line SC will as least give the SP bikes (heckler & superlight) a much needed geo change, esp the heckler - that geo is so 1999
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikingduker View Post
    I suspect at least part of the APP's downfall was the frame weight. I never really understood why the APP frames are that much heavier than the roughly equivalent SP frames

    Most of the reviews for the new Superlight 29er have been very positive but with the one weakness being it has a flexy rear. Something an APP set up would have no doubt addressed.
    Looks like you answered your own question there! the extra link (and i suspect slightly beefier construction) eliminated the lateral flex for an extra 3/4 pound on the butcher. Well worth it!!!
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy.Ford View Post
    Well hopefully if they do drop the APP line SC will as least give the SP bikes (heckler & superlight) a much needed geo change, esp the heckler - that geo is so 1999
    The Heckler's geo is nearly identical to the Blur LT. Which late 90's era bike are you comparing it to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    I highly doubt that's the issue.

    My guess is that the benefits of APP over a standard single-pivot bike were not realized by the masses. A substantial majority of people out there looking at single-pivot bikes are going to throw a leg over in a parking lot, maybe drop off a curb and both bikes are going to feel the same to the general biker, many of whom may be buying their first FS frame. When faced with a more complicated and more expensive design that feels the same as something cheaper and simpler, what do you think MOST people are going to pick?

    One of the things thats really easy to do is forget that the people who browse these boards are a VERY different class of biker, and do not represent that lionshare of MTB consumers . . . not even close. While many people here would be able to immediately recognize the benefits of APP over a SP frame, most people can't/won't.
    Excellent post. However, i think a decent bike shop salesman (few and far between!) could fix that; educating the buyer over how the benefits of the app suspension curve and increased lateral stiffness is worth the extra cost.
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  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwcet8k View Post
    The Heckler's geo is nearly identical to the Blur LT. Which late 90's era bike are you comparing it to?
    To be fair, the Blur LT's geometry is a bit out of place when compared to the TRc and Nomad. It is the steepest of all three (albeit slightly).

    The Heckler does have 2 deg steeper HA when compared with the Nomad (and 1.5 deg steeper than the Butcher). According to SC these bikes are in the same "All Mountain" class.

    I guess I hadn't really thought about it much, but the other post kinda has a point.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by robsetsfire View Post
    To be fair, the Blur LT's geometry is a bit out of place when compared to the TRc and Nomad. It is the steepest of all three (albeit slightly).

    The Heckler does have 2 deg steeper HA when compared with the Nomad (and 1.5 deg steeper than the Butcher). According to SC these bikes are in the same "All Mountain" class.

    I guess I hadn't really thought about it much, but the other post kinda has a point.
    However, with a 160 mm fork, heckler becomes 67.6, butcher becomes 66.7, and blur lt becomes 67.1. just thought id throw that out there.
    taht being said, I do think that if sc drops the app's and keeps the sl and heckler; its really time for a geo update.
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  43. #43
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    I am a big Santa Cruz fan, sadly never really owned one.....

    Anyway, this kinda reminds me when the Bullit was ended, it`s just a way to "respect" the market. SC is a great brand that has 2 or 3 highly famous bikes, the Heckler is a legend, forget about brakejack and pros and cons, think about the hype through all these years, it`s a fun bike, simple and low maintenace, a lot of people like to keep it simple, is it cheaper than the rest ?!? Even better !

    With VPP, SC has 2 great choices, are you a XC rider, you like confort, agility enough to put a smile on your face ? Get a Blur.....
    Are you more agressive ? Get a Nomad then, it`s THE do it all bike anyway....and still a beautiful bike, i do think it will be a future problem to SC to design a replacement for such an icon....

    So, this is an honest aproach from me, if tomorow i would decide to buy a SC bike that`s how i would see it....

  44. #44
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    The good news is if you have been keen on a Nickel or Butcher there should be some sweet close out deals coming down the pipe.
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  45. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    I highly doubt that's the issue.

    My guess is that the benefits of APP over a standard single-pivot bike were not realized by the masses. A substantial majority of people out there looking at single-pivot bikes are going to throw a leg over in a parking lot, maybe drop off a curb and both bikes are going to feel the same to the general biker, many of whom may be buying their first FS frame. When faced with a more complicated and more expensive design that feels the same as something cheaper and simpler, what do you think MOST people are going to pick?

    One of the things thats really easy to do is forget that the people who browse these boards are a VERY different class of biker, and do not represent that lionshare of MTB consumers . . . not even close. While many people here would be able to immediately recognize the benefits of APP over a SP frame, most people can't/won't.
    +10 - a friend just bought a Heckler. She'd call herself a lifelong mountain biker, but when I started to explain the SC line up to her her eyes glazed over by the time I was done single pivot let alone getting to APP and the VPP. Then going back to discuss pros and cons.

    The price was right. It passed the parking lot test and she owned a previous '97 Heckler so it had nostalgia going for it. Besides she'll have fun and it's more than enough bike for her.

    I just told her it was a solid bike and to go for it...

    I wouldn't envy the job of a SC bike salesmen with single Pivot/APP/VPP as well as 26er/650B/29er to get through on a busy Saturday in July...
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    It's ok

    I wasn't a big fan of the Butcher anyway. I took one for a spin last Fall at Downieville and thought it climbed like a pig. No match for the Nomad.

    If the Butcher and Heckler are leaving, does that mean something will be arriving?

  47. #47
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    if the Heckler is going to stick around, they need to at least update it with a tapered head tube. Would love to see 142 rear as well (on all the SC models!!!).

  48. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    I wonder if the excellent performance of the APP bikes are stealing the thunder of their VPP bikes. It's never good to have a lower end product overtake the popularity of your flagship product.
    You hit the nail squarely on the head. The problem is that the APP design was to much of a success. They sold a ton of them, at the expense of the VPP design, which SC could make a better profit on. It's all about the bottom line.

    I wouldn't worry, there will be a lot of used ones out there for people to buy.

  49. #49
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    I recently test rode a Heckler and a Nickel. I was suprised how well the Heckler rode but really liked how smooth the Nickel was. A big item for me was that the Nickel had a slightly longer top tube which is a deal maker for me. The Heckler was a little cramped. When the SC demo truck was here recently they did not have any APP bikes, which I thought was strange.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrsbike View Post
    When the SC demo truck was here recently they did not have any APP bikes, which I thought was strange.
    None at their demo in Marin today either. They had one Heckler amidst all the VPPs, a few Highboys, and Superlight 29ers.

    Sent from my Android phone who can't spell using Tapatalk

  51. #51
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    Werent they getting sued for the app design? I remember there was some lawsuit posted on here a couple months ago.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tboned View Post
    Werent they getting sued for the app design? I remember there was some lawsuit posted on here a couple months ago.
    They were protecting their intellectual property because the Yeti design copies VPP.
    "It looks flexy"

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    App sure looks a lot like the yeti asx...
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    I dont know... my first look into the SC bikes take me directly to the nickel, at first i dint understood the difference... at the end i did... then i bought my first SC it was a superlight 29... i took this because of budget, relaible brand, benefits of 29 ers, simplicity and the best of all the rear flexy felling, i really love that... and the color, black with green and withe fork, just to keep in price point...

  55. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwyooaj View Post
    App sure looks a lot like the yeti asx...
    Which looks a lot like any Foes bike since the 90's, which resembled one of the first full-suspension mountain bikes with a single-pivot and linkage... I can't remember what it was called...

  56. #56
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    I'll be curious to see if the Butcher/Nickel gets replaced with a new model or if they'll just stick to single pivot and VPP. I feel like Santa Cruz needs a couple full suspension bikes in between the pricey VPP and budget single pivots.
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  57. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    I'll be curious to see if the Butcher/Nickel gets replaced with a new model or if they'll just stick to single pivot and VPP. I feel like Santa Cruz needs a couple full suspension bikes in between the pricey VPP and budget single pivots.
    That's what the Butcher and Nickel were. I don't think SC is going to all the trouble of killing some new designs just to throw a couple different new ones right back into the hole. That would make no sense unless the Butcher/Nickel sucked in terms of performance which wasn't the case.

    SC is going to have to add a 650B XC bike and 650B AM bike to the line up next year. I suspect with VPP.
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  58. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    That's what the Butcher and Nickel were. I don't think SC is going to all the trouble of killing some new designs just to throw a couple different new ones right back into the hole. That would make no sense unless the Butcher/Nickel sucked in terms of performance which wasn't the case.

    SC is going to have to add a 650B XC bike and 650B AM bike to the line up next year. I suspect with VPP.
    I'd put the odds on a 650b XC bike at close to zero.

    650b AM/Trail, perhaps . . . but why? The TRc already works - and quite well - as a 650b.
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  59. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    I'd put the odds on a 650b XC bike at close to zero.

    650b AM/Trail, perhaps . . . but why? The TRc already works - and quite well - as a 650b.
    And the Nickel too as it transpires!

    I personally hope that we don't see a 650B at the cost of the Nickel and Butcher, you should either go big wheels or you don't and reap the benefits of one or the other. 650b is an afterthought invented to sell more bikes to the people who have to have the the latest and greatest in my own opinion, a half way house and nothing more.

  60. #60
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    CompetitiveCyclist has Nickels on sale for $799 right now.
    Last edited by kabayan; 05-30-2012 at 09:59 AM.
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  61. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kabayan View Post
    CompetitiveCyclist has Nickels on sale for $799 right now.

  62. #62
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    I am disappoint about the Butcher...it was going to be my next frame/bike.
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    I personally don't like the color choices for the 2012 Butcher, or the stickers. I made the right choice of ordering a white Butcher frame and RP23 shock mid 2010. Couldn't be any happier with the Butcher, it's a great bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hillwilly View Post
    I personally don't like the color choices for the 2012 Butcher, or the stickers. I made the right choice of ordering a white Butcher frame and RP23 shock mid 2010. Couldn't be any happier with the Butcher, it's a great bike.
    I tend to agree. My 2010 Butcher has much better graphics. I just still find it odd they only made these bikes for a couple years. Can someone from Santa Cruz chime in as to why there will be no more Butcher/Nickel?
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTSession View Post
    I tend to agree. My 2010 Butcher has much better graphics. I just still find it odd they only made these bikes for a couple years. Can someone from Santa Cruz chime in as to why there will be no more Butcher/Nickel?
    after 3 pages we still don't know?
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    well we can guess, but only sc knows the real reason.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just J View Post
    I personally hope that we don't see a 650B at the cost of the Nickel and Butcher, you should either go big wheels or you don't and reap the benefits of one or the other. 650b is an afterthought invented to sell more bikes to the people who have to have the the latest and greatest in my own opinion, a half way house and nothing more.
    Maybe they should just stop making full-suspension bikes with less than 8" of travel. Any less than that and you aren't getting the benefits of the 8" of suspension or the benefits of a hardtail. Why would anybody like a 5 or 6" travel bike? Have you ever ridden a 650b? They really feel like the best of both worlds, not the worst. At least you said "personally" and "in my own opinion".

  68. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by mountainbiker24 View Post
    Have you ever ridden a 650b? They really feel like the best of both worlds, not the worst. At least you said "personally" and "in my own opinion".
    No I haven't, I based my statement purely on my opinion on the matter. I understand they ride well, but so do well sorted 26" and 29" bikes.

  69. #69
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    Damned shame if this bike goes away, but it wouldn't be the first product that's been misunderstood and subsequently killed. Lots of deals to be had on Nickels now so I'm about to pull the trigger on one.

    Question: I've yet to see one of the new straight down tubed Nickels any where besides the website. I called Competitive Cyclist and they confirmed having the swoopy tube. Is the .5 pound weight savings only on the ones with the straight tube or was there another interim version? The guy I talked to at SC wasn't too certain about anything regarding the bike. He also couldn't confirm the APP demise but said it was a possibility.
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  70. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    While many people here would be able to immediately recognize the benefits of APP over a SP frame, most people can't/won't.
    But (most of) APP's benefits can be replicated with a properly valved shock on a 'simple' single pivot. I can't think of many customers who've brought a Five (or a Heckler for the matter) back because the suspension was misbehaving.

    The Heckler getting chainguide tabs, 142x12 and a taper fitting head tube would be nice, but it's hard to see SC investing in their 'bottom end' AM frame, shame.
    Shame about the Nickel too, that's been such an easy frame to sell.

  71. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fix the Spade View Post
    But (most of) APP's benefits can be replicated with a properly valved shock on a 'simple' single pivot. I can't think of many customers who've brought a Five (or a Heckler for the matter) back because the suspension was misbehaving.

    The Heckler getting chainguide tabs, 142x12 and a taper fitting head tube would be nice, but it's hard to see SC investing in their 'bottom end' AM frame, shame.
    Shame about the Nickel too, that's been such an easy frame to sell.
    I had a heckler with a "proper" shock and although the suspension didnt "misbehave" exactly, my butcher (also with a proper shock) is, IMO, better enough to warrant the extra few hundy. The butcher having the vpp shock curve really soaks up the chunder which sometimes overwhelmed the heckler, and resists harsh bottoming out better. The butcher is noticeably stiffer laterally. Also, the butchers geo is a little slacker (esp with a 160 mm fork, which really makes that frame shine). in my opinion, the butcher feels better on the steeps than the Heck. They both climb and pedal well. Subtle differences, but noticeable to me; no question the Heckler is a soild bike for the money but the butcher seems to be the evolution of the heckler; I think they should drop the heckler, keep the butcher
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  72. #72
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    Compared to old Bullit and Hecler, the linkage of Butcher or Nickel makes rear end noticeably stiffer and there for there is not so much side-to-side movement and load to the rear shock shaft bushings and rear eyelet bushing. That is great benefit of the APP design over traditional single pivot without shock linkage or "swing link".

    ...I was just about to replace my old Bullit with Butcher or aluminium Nomad in the near future. Let see if there is only Nomad available then.
    Last edited by miqu; 06-05-2012 at 12:50 AM.
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  73. #73
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    It's, in fact, a shame if SC ends the Butcher/Nickel models....
    I'm th proud owner of a 2012 Butcher, and could only say great things about the bike....

    On the other hand, it will turn into an modern classic.
    Amazing piece o bike, climbs like a goat (much better than the Fuel EX that I previously owned), and feels amazingly fun and focused on the way down... and that, for me, it's what a bike is all about...

  74. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by HHMTB View Post
    Damned shame if this bike goes away, but it wouldn't be the first product that's been misunderstood and subsequently killed. Lots of deals to be had on Nickels now so I'm about to pull the trigger on one.
    It is a shame. I've been thinking about picking up a Nickel. I'd like to find a used one, but I don't see many out there.

    I wish the rear end was easier to tear down. You need like three special tools. I would like to tear it down and polish it.

    I was hoping for a carbon version of the Nickel someday.

  75. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post

    I was hoping for a carbon version of the Nickel someday.
    Yup me too, but it's good to know that there are other APP fans out there, I rate it very highly indeed!

  76. #76
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    I'm buying the Nickel today. Anyone try the bike with both the RP23 and Float RL rear shock? Is there a noticeable difference and which do you prefer? RL is cheaper by $100 so if there's no real diff, I'd rather save the cash.
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  77. #77
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    My one and only gripe I ever had about my white 2010 Butcher, is that I could not order one with a coil spring. My LBS asked whoever takes orders for the frames and bikes, could I get a Butcher with a coil spring instead of air, he said I couldn't get a coil only air. I would have a hard time they would be shelving the APP, but SC has to do what it has to do, to stay in business.

  78. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by HHMTB View Post
    I'm buying the Nickel today. Anyone try the bike with both the RP23 and Float RL rear shock? Is there a noticeable difference and which do you prefer? RL is cheaper by $100 so if there's no real diff, I'd rather save the cash.
    I owned a HT/AM prior to buying the Nickel. When I bought the Nickel (with RL), I was very disappointed with the rear suspension. It felt like my HT but a lot heavier. The RL only had a 'lock-out' & 'pro-pedal' while the RP23 has 'pro-pedal' & 'open'. I paid extra for the RP23 and it made night a day difference! The rearend was so much plusher especially noticeable on stutter bump sections of the trail. That $100 for RP23 is a lot cheaper than buying the shock seperately. I would definitely recommend getting it.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by hillwilly View Post
    My one and only gripe I ever had about my white 2010 Butcher, is that I could not order one with a coil spring. My LBS asked whoever takes orders for the frames and bikes, could I get a Butcher with a coil spring instead of air, he said I couldn't get a coil only air. I would have a hard time they would be shelving the APP, but SC has to do what it has to do, to stay in business.
    i bought my butcher from the same shop. i stood right next to Jim while he ordered it and S/C denied the chance of numerous option. basically pick one build kit. also i would have had to wait till mid-summer for other colors than orange. i'm glad i bought it. only 1 gripe; rear maxle or equivalent

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    Quick question for any of you 2012 Nickel owners ---

    Do you only have water bottle mounts on the bottom of the down tube? On their website, Santa Cruz says they should have two mount positions (on the top and bottom of the down tube, but mine only has them on the bottom of the down tube.

    I think the 2010 and 2011's had them in both positions, and I'm not sure if my 2012 build was a fluke, or if it's the norm.

  81. #81
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    Bikes still come with water bottle mounts?

  82. #82
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    Mine... Medium, 2011 Ni: 2 bottle cage.
    Wife's... Small, 2012 Ni: 1 bottle cage (bottom down tube).

  83. #83
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    That's what I thought (I don't care too much, but they probably should update their website). I was thinking of using the mount for the Kuat bottle lock for quick runs to the store since its removable. For any decent rides, I've always got a camel bak.

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    Don't look now, Pinkbike (Richard Cunningham) just posted a very flattering review of the Butcher.

    "On the plus side, the Butcher’s rear suspension feels (dare I say it?) better than the Blur LT with its VPP linkage"

    Unfortunately more like an obit at this point. Get 'em while you can.

  85. #85
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    Such a shame, I wonder if SC didn't license out the VPP whether they would stick with the more simple APP system instead? Even more reason to keep my Nickel and I think it'll be going back for a warranty respray soon too!...

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikingduker View Post
    Don't look now, Pinkbike (Richard Cunningham) just posted a very flattering review of the Butcher.

    "On the plus side, the Butcher’s rear suspension feels (dare I say it?) better than the Blur LT with its VPP linkage"

    Unfortunately more like an obit at this point. Get 'em while you can.
    Dammit...and just when I thought I'd settled on a new Blur LT!

    I wish I could test ride both...hard...and then decide. But no shop owner in their right mind is going to do that, and the demo truck isn't stopping here any time soon. I sure do like the simplicity of the APP design, but the fact that this is going the way of the dinosaurs makes me shy away.
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  87. #87
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    No more Butcher and just in time with a great review...

    ...from Pink Bike. Oh well.
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  88. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by HELLBELLY View Post
    ...from Pink Bike. Oh well.
    I saw that too. lol.
    "It looks flexy"

  89. #89
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    Butcher/Nickel

    Im looking for a used Butcher or Nickel

    Size L

  90. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    The good news is if you have been keen on a Nickel or Butcher there should be some sweet close out deals coming down the pipe.

    Is this still a rumor or has Santa Cruz announced they plan to drop the Butcher and Nickel?

    Looks like competitive cyclist has great prices on the Nickel ($899 w/ RP23). At that price I'm very tempted although the Butcher would probably be a better match for my terrain. Anyone see any close out prices on the Butcher?

  91. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    It's confirmed. They're done.
    Hey OO7, who confirmed this, SC? Did they give a reason for it?...

  92. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by noosa2 View Post
    Is this still a rumor or has Santa Cruz announced they plan to drop the Butcher and Nickel?

    Looks like competitive cyclist has great prices on the Nickel ($899 w/ RP23). At that price I'm very tempted although the Butcher would probably be a better match for my terrain. Anyone see any close out prices on the Butcher?
    It's confirmed. They're done.
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  93. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    It's confirmed. They're done.
    OK, then who has the super close out deals on the Butcher.

  94. #94
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    ^ There might not be any if there is a demand for them. Prices may stay high.

  95. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just J View Post
    Hey OO7, who confirmed this, SC? Did they give a reason for it?...
    Still no reason in-so-far as I have heard, but yes someone at SC has supposedly confirmed their demise. I've not spoken personally with them, but there are several first-hand reports stating as such.
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  96. #96
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    It ain't over till the fat lady sings!

  97. #97
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    Why hasn't there been a press release about this yet? Are they afraid those models will stop selling? Maybe waiting until August/September when most people announce new products?
    "Got everything you need?"

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    It ain't over till the fat lady sings!
    Rob Roskopp never seemed that fat to me. In fact I think there is nary a portly being on SC's payroll.

    Either way, it seems a bit quick for them to shelf a project that they spent more than five years on.
    "Everything popular is wrong." -Oscar Wilde

  99. #99
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    When emailed and asked if APP bikes are dead:

    Quote Originally Posted by email from Santa Cruz Bikes View Post
    Its looking that way. We love the Butcher and Nickel, but the APP sales numbers are just not up there with the VPP offerings. I think most people in that general price range are just saving a little more and going with a VPP model. I personally wouldn't let that stop me from getting a butcher or nickel right now though. If it goes away, we will still completely support the frame as far as replacement parts and warranty service goes.
    Sounds like its not a 100% decision, but it also really sounds like miraculous sales numbers are needed to save the design. Speaking from experience, I purchased exactly as they suggested. I went in looking at the Nickel and when I realized I could get a Blur for another $200, it was a no-brainer.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  100. #100
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    They have sold a ton of them. There has to be another reason for dropping the frames from their line.

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