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Thread: 650B Santa Cruz

  1. #1
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    650B Santa Cruz

    Well, I do not believe there is any 650b specific bike on the drawing table at Santa Cruz at the moment.
    I am just interested in Santa Cruz enthusiasts and riders opinion.
    Would you like to see a 650B option in SC line?
    If not, then why?
    If yes, then in which category? XC, AM, DH…

    I know the 650B industry is slowly picking up with the upcoming availability of the parts. (Forks, wheels, tires…)
    I can also see that another wheel option will probably mean higher cost of production, since the market would split even more among the different wheel sizes.
    I am aware that SC was kind of late to the 29er party, so if the 650B goes mainstream in the next 1-3years, we might not see SC 650B bike very soon.

  2. #2
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    Several of the current models can be run with 650b....maybe. Specific 650 bike is not needed.
    I resolve to constantly assert my honest opinion on anything and everything - whether it is requested or not.
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    The Blur TRC seems to be the favorite 650b conversion lately.

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    Yes, I am aware of the TRC compatibility, but it still is a 26er which might limit the use of wider tires and it was design with 26er geometry in mind.
    I own a Tallboy C and like it.
    i have also test riden the new Tallboy TLc and really liked it a lot.
    I do prefer 29er wheels to 26er in most situations, but I am also 5'9 and could feel the limits of the 29er setup - specifically the Tallboy LT.
    I like to have the front at leaset at the same level with my seat (if not lower...) and there is a limit with 29er high front. This shouldnt be a problem for a taller rider.
    Another thing - stand over hight. These are all design issues which could be overcome only to certain point.
    That's why I am interested in 650Bs.

  5. #5
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    A Blur 650b is the next logical step for Santa Cruz. I would definitively consider buying one with XC setup. I am not too kin on a 29er. I have no clue what kind of a bike they have in mind for 2013. I read their official statement that they are not planning any 650 for 2013 BIG MISTAKE!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by k^2 View Post
    I read their official statement that they are not planning any 650 for 2013 BIG MISTAKE!!
    Huge FAIL for SC!

    It makes me so sad when I have to get off my 26er Nomad and walk sections of trail that my bike can't handle while guys on 650B rigs blast past me laughing at my shame...

    I actually own a 650B bike and it's a wheel size worthy of consideration, but I don't think rushing in to jump on the bandwagon is a smart move. Let other companies build so-so 650B bikes. Learn from their mistakes and build a great SC 650B bike when the time is right. Then dominate for years...
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    I don't mean to be cheeky here but the TRc 650b isn't a new discovery.....been rocking one since Sept 2011.....anyway kudos for trying it....

    TRc 650b made sense to me (as you mentioned BB height) after my illfated LTc 650b conversion that turned the LTc into high CoG pig.

    TRcy it I say.....

  9. #9
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    I put 650b wheels on my 2012 Aluminum LT on Friday. I rode it all weekend, here are my first impressions:

    1. Higher BB is kind of a downer, might have to knock the fork down to 130mm. (26" Reynolds Carbon AM wheels with high-volume tubeless tires, 140mm White Brothers LOOP fork: 13.6" BB, 650b Stans Flow/DT wheels with Nevegal 2.35 front and unnamed rear 2.1: 14.1" BB). I wouldn't say it's a huge deal, but it is noticeable.

    2. Carries speed a little better through semi-rough sections. Likewise, ledges seem a touch easier. The smallish rear tire rolls great, but is less than stellar in the gnar-gnar.

    3. A little slower when sprinting, but the 650b wheels are obviously heavier than my carbon 26".

    4. My standard gearing (1x10, 34t x 11-36t) felt a bit tougher - but maybe I just had an "off" weekend.

    Need more time on them to decide if they're staying on. Not a clear advantage at this point. Tallboy LTc on the way anyway.....
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  10. #10
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    SANTA CRUZ (Mike Ferrentino, whose comments were presumably vetted by suspension engineer Joe Graney, who is on the record as not looking forward to 650B): First, i do not entirely agree with (the premise that the industry is driving this). I think consumers are a big part of this interest bubble right now. According to francis at MTBR, “650b” is the second most popular search term on their site at the moment, and the 650b forum traffic is showing huge growth. It is valid to argue that the industry is at fault for even beginning to entertain the idea of 650b wheels, but consumers are clamoring right now for what they perceive to be the next better mousetrap. Another thing to consider – IF this takes off, does anyone realize how much crow the industry is going to have to eat listening to grant petersen saying “I told you so?”

    Good article at bikerumor.com:
    What’s Driving the 650B Explosion? Interviews, Tech Breakdown & More! - Bike Rumor
    Last edited by jazzanova; 06-07-2012 at 01:02 PM.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Huge FAIL for SC!

    It makes me so sad when I have to get off my 26er Nomad and walk sections of trail that my bike can't handle while guys on 650B rigs blast past me laughing at my shame...
    I sure hope this is dripping with sarcasm.
    Narrow is the path to life, few are those who find it.

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    I think it is a big mistake if they do not make 650b their next bike. The wheel size rocks. A 650b LT, with the correct BB height, geo, etc would certainly kill it.

    Problem is, just like with 29" bikes, they have their head in the sand. They'll do it but look how f'n long it took them to come out with the Tallboy.

    I do not buy Graney's BS outlook. He can do it and do it really well. Do it man!
    I am immune to your disdain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    IThey'll do it but look how f'n long it took them to come out with the Tallboy.
    And even though it took a while, the Tallboy was worth the wait I'd say. I'd like to see 650b sooner than later from SCB, but if and when we do see it, likely it'll be done right and lead the pack.

  14. #14
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    I'll need a new Nomad in another 4-6yrs...hopefully SC will have a 650B version for me by then...
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    Currently I ride a TRc and a Chameleon with 140mm forks on both.
    Being a mere 5'6", I run a small TRc and medium Chameleon.
    29ers just do not work for me, I cannot get my position right to make it fun to ride.

    I have no great desire to convert my TRc to 650b, but I can see how some do like it.

    My preference would be for a cardon hardtail 650b with a nice slack HA to replace my Chamelon with.
    I know this is highly unlikely as 29ers seem to rule the roost in the hardtail world but that would be my preference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T View Post
    And even though it took a while, the Tallboy was worth the wait I'd say. I'd like to see 650b sooner than later from SCB, but if and when we do see it, likely it'll be done right and lead the pack.
    I agree with you that it will be done right. I hope it is done soon.
    I am immune to your disdain.

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    Reynolds Carbon AM wheels with high-volume tubeless tires, 140mm White Brothers LOOP fork: 13.6" BB, 650b Stans Flow/DT wheels with Nevegal 2.35 front and unnamed rear 2.1
    Wow...carbon reynolds and unnamed rear tyres? interesting mix

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    reynolds stans white brothers nevegals is the deal killer for me.
    i'm happy to try 650b, but maybe in an enve fox maxxis kind of way.
    here we go again

  19. #19
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    Intense is another manufacturer working on 650b...
    Well, looks like the first VPP 650b specific bike won't be a SC.

    Posted by Sharples, who works at Intense:

    "At Intense here in California, we built a Tracer 27.5, 137-150mm travel, we refined it, and built a couple more, I love the bike.
    We have also tested a few carbon versions.
    The wheel size is fantastic. Increasing the wheel size from 26 has benefits and 'challenges'. The benefits are linear, the 'challenges' are exponential.
    Therefore, a 650 has benefits similar to a 29er but not as significant, with that said, the 'challenges' with a 650b are almost non-existent.
    You will be able to buy our 650b [27.5] bikes very soon. If I was told today, that I could only have one bike in the garage, it would be a 650b.
    But I wouldnt 'Jimmy Rig', a 26 inch bike. if you need to run a smaller tire to make it fit into your frame, you are defeating the purpose. The outside diameter is the key. A small tire makes for a small outside diameter. I know this is obvious to some of you, but I have heard of a few people making crazy compromises just to run a 650 rim...
    Sharples"

  20. #20
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    My Tallboy would be sold in a heartbeat...
    I am immune to your disdain.

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  22. #22
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    I"d rather see something between the nomad and V10c.

  23. #23
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    No way to know for sure, but I can't imagine a scenario where SC isn't already goofing with and/or prototyping 650s. They weren't going to have a 29er until they had a 29er and it turned out to be bad ass out of the gate-- and then they took it to 11 with the LT.

    If 650 has legs they'll make one and it'll be great. I'd buy a Nomad 650 instantly. INSTANTLY. Enough of my buddies are on 29ers that I know bigger wheels is the direction I'm going. I'm on my last 26er right now (even though I love it). The advantages outweigh the disadvantages to them and I witness that in practice twice a week. I've also witnessed how much faster they are on their 29ers.

    If they don't make a 650 Nomad/Tallboy in the next year or two, a Tallboy LT will be the next bike in my garage. They've got me either way. They had me at "Nomad."

    M-
    I'll be along... eventually.

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    When do the 2013 models start hitting the showroom floors?

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    I am sure SC is saying this as a 650b would immediately castrate and delegitimize their 26's (along with all the R & D money). They'll probably resist a 650 wheeled bike until they feel they've recouped enough revenue, on the newer carbon 26's, to justify the expense.

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    I don't know about that...

    ...if you aren't selling bikes you aren't recouping anything-- they'll be just fine and are big enough they likely recouped those costs long ago. But it will force with them, as it has with most manufacturers I imagine, a review of the entire product line.

    As an "all-mountain" guy on a Nomad II that I love and have been on for three years in October, I still can't imagine I'll ever buy another 26er for my kind of riding. I know too many guys I've been riding with forever who are on 29ers now and can't even conceive of getting another 26er.

    I'm getting a new bike in 2013, and while I don't know exactly what bike I"m going to get I do know it won't have 26" wheels. If a 650 Nomad is on the boards then I'll wait for it. If not, as much as I love my Nomad and Santa Cruz, I'll be on another brand's bike.



    Quote Originally Posted by dopepedaler View Post
    I am sure SC is saying this as a 650b would immediately castrate and delegitimize their 26's (along with all the R & D money). They'll probably resist a 650 wheeled bike until they feel they've recouped enough revenue, on the newer carbon 26's, to justify the expense.
    I'll be along... eventually.

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    They are making one. They just are not telling folks. Hints abound. They are not stupid, after all.
    I am immune to your disdain.

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    Santa Cruz is typically slow to adopt new trends/technologies. They waited a long time to offer 29ers (which are now their top-selling bikes). Just a year ago they said that 142x12 isn't needed, but now they are offering it on many bikes. I'm sure they are at least thinking about 650b, if not already prototyping some.

    Would a 650b bike be a good business decision for SC? There are lots of factors to consider. Based on these forums and the fact that many are putting 650b wheels on existing SC bikes, there seems to be a good demand. Intense already offers 650b trail/am bikes with VPP suspension in both carbon and alloy. Should SC offer the same thing and try to take part of that market share, or should they try to fill another niche like a short-travel 650b XC race bike? Or maybe something longer travel like a 650b Nomad? When you consider the cost of engineering & design, prototyping, and tooling up to produce a carbon frame, you probably need a strong business case to proceed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jabrabu View Post
    Santa Cruz is typically slow to adopt new trends/technologies. They waited a long time to offer 29ers (which are now their top-selling bikes). Just a year ago they said that 142x12 isn't needed, but now they are offering it on many bikes.
    Got to admit over the years they have shown to be a company of double speakers....MF was the best at it.

    650b for them will happen, most likely you'll see a Blur LT with a 23" TT, slacker H/A, lower BB and of course a tweaked TRc to fit 650's in for mud clearance.

    Betcha though they are kicking themselves for not going with swapable dropouts like Intense....would of made these wheel fads a lot easier to deal with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan View Post
    I'm getting a new bike in 2013, and while I don't know exactly what bike I"m going to get I do know it won't have 26" wheels. If a 650 Nomad is on the boards then I'll wait for it. If not, as much as I love my Nomad and Santa Cruz, I'll be on another brand's bike.
    Just put -1 Angleset to your old Nomad and service/tune your suspension, and it will roll over stuff better than a 650b.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by msylvan View Post
    .
    I'm getting a new bike in 2013, and while I don't know exactly what bike I"m going to get I do know it won't have 26" wheels. If a 650 Nomad is on the boards then I'll wait for it. If not, as much as I love my Nomad and Santa Cruz, I'll be on another brand's bike.
    Get a 650B fork + front wheel for your Nomad for the best of both worlds...
    Safe riding,

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  32. #32
    kev
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    Long term ride review?

    Noah -

    I too have an aluminum Blur LT2 and am thinking hard about the 650b mod. It looks like it has been about 6 months since your original post. Do you have any longer term impressions? As for the BB height, funny that it bugs you to have a taller BB. That is one of the reasons I want to go with the 650b wheelset. I came off of a Ventana El Saltamontes that I rode with a 125mm fork and noticed immediately that I was hitting my pedals more with my Blur LT than I did with the Ventana. Anyway - what else can you tell me about your Blur after riding it for a while? Did you keep it set up that way?

    TIA,

    kev

    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post

    I put 650b wheels on my 2012 Aluminum LT on Friday. I rode it all weekend, here are my first impressions:

    1. Higher BB is kind of a downer, might have to knock the fork down to 130mm. (26" Reynolds Carbon AM wheels with high-volume tubeless tires, 140mm White Brothers LOOP fork: 13.6" BB, 650b Stans Flow/DT wheels with Nevegal 2.35 front and unnamed rear 2.1: 14.1" BB). I wouldn't say it's a huge deal, but it is noticeable.

    2. Carries speed a little better through semi-rough sections. Likewise, ledges seem a touch easier. The smallish rear tire rolls great, but is less than stellar in the gnar-gnar.

    3. A little slower when sprinting, but the 650b wheels are obviously heavier than my carbon 26".

    4. My standard gearing (1x10, 34t x 11-36t) felt a bit tougher - but maybe I just had an "off" weekend.

    Need more time on them to decide if they're staying on. Not a clear advantage at this point. Tallboy LTc on the way anyway.....

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    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Noah -

    I too have an aluminum Blur LT2 and am thinking hard about the 650b mod. It looks like it has been about 6 months since your original post. Do you have any longer term impressions? As for the BB height, funny that it bugs you to have a taller BB. That is one of the reasons I want to go with the 650b wheelset. I came off of a Ventana El Saltamontes that I rode with a 125mm fork and noticed immediately that I was hitting my pedals more with my Blur LT than I did with the Ventana. Anyway - what else can you tell me about your Blur after riding it for a while? Did you keep it set up that way?

    TIA,

    kev
    Hi Kev,

    I didn't keep it setup that way. I didn't feel like there was any benefit and I much preferred my 26" wheel and tire setup on that bike (Reynolds AM Carbon wheels and Maxxis HR2 tires). I'm sure a TRc works much better as a conversion.

    I got a Tallboy LTc not long after the 650b experiment, I much prefer that bike to anything else.

    I need to get rid of the 650b wheels if anyone wants a nice, barely used set to try. Flow rims, DT Supercomp spokes, DT 350 rear hub and 440 front (with 15 and 20 caps).
    NOAH SEARS
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    Quote Originally Posted by NoahColorado View Post
    Hi Kev,

    I didn't keep it setup that way. I didn't feel like there was any benefit and I much preferred my 26" wheel and tire setup on that bike (Reynolds AM Carbon wheels and Maxxis HR2 tires). I'm sure a TRc works much better as a conversion.

    I got a Tallboy LTc not long after the 650b experiment, I much prefer that bike to anything else.

    I need to get rid of the 650b wheels if anyone wants a nice, barely used set to try. Flow rims, DT Supercomp spokes, DT 350 rear hub and 440 front (with 15 and 20 caps).
    Always wanted to try this... I may be interested...what are you looking at to get rid of 'em ?

    thx

  35. #35
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    I'm not in any hurry to jump to 650b. I have a 29'er hard tail, a 26" full suspension trail bike and a 26 dh bike.

    If I want ultimate trail speed on smooth trails, I take the 29'er. If I plan on climbing up the mountain, then mobbing down ultra rocky trails, I take the 26" trail bike.

    I don't race, so the perceived benefits of 650b are not needed by me, nor are they a big enough difference for me to jump ship on 26.

    I'm not a fan of perceived obsolescence, and therefore do not have this general feeling that 26" is not as good as the new 650b...I'll stick with a 29'er hard tail and a 26 trail machine.

  36. #36
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    I'm interested in the wheels. How much are you asking for them? Thanks!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripo View Post
    Betcha though they are kicking themselves for not going with swapable dropouts like Intense....would of made these wheel fads a lot easier to deal with.

    ^^^That would be the best solution, swapable dropouts for different wheel fads...dropouts that have height offsets also, to compensate for geometry changes caused by different wheel diameters.
    I would be down with that idea.

  38. #38
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    Makes sense if you have both a 29er and a 26" bike, especially if one is a TB LT and the other a Blur LT, but I am pretty much a "one bike to rule them all" guy. So for exactly the reasons you state, that you want/need a 29" for smooth trails and 26" for trail, I think a 27.5 Blur LT would be a perfect solution.

    kev

  39. #39
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    Slacker angle Blur LT 650b

    So this is interesting... the links below come from another SC thread as suggestions for slacking out the HA, and slightly lowering the BB on a Blur LT. It seems to me that one of these two parts, along with the 650b wheel set would be a pretty nice set up. It takes care of one of the issues identified by some, that is, the too tall BB that results from the 650b wheels. I can imagine that the 1 degree or so slacker HA would also be a nice treatment for the Blur LT. (That is exactly what the other thread was all about.) Apparently this would put the HA right on par with the Nomad, but with shorter chain stays. The long stays are one of the reasons that I am not a big fan of the Nomad (just my opinion, so please no flames necessary...)

    Works Components - 1 0 Degree EC34 - Traditional 1 1 8 Fitment

    Burgtec Titanium Offset Shock Hardware | Burgtec
    Last edited by kev; 10-11-2012 at 02:23 PM. Reason: want to add active web links and make more clear

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    Makes sense if you have both a 29er and a 26" bike, especially if one is a TB LT and the other a Blur LT, but I am pretty much a "one bike to rule them all" guy. So for exactly the reasons you state, that you want/need a 29" for smooth trails and 26" for trail, I think a 27.5 Blur LT would be a perfect solution.

    kev
    That makes sense. I've done a few "one bike to rule them all". It's nice, but I concluded that I was getting the best of neither and that it was too much of a compromise.

    I am now a "quiver of bikes to rule them all" kind of guy.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by kev View Post
    The long stays are one of the reasons that I am not a big fan of the Nomad (just my opinion, so please no flames necessary...)
    long chainstays are what swayed me away from a long travel 29'er suspension frame and pushed me back towards a long travel 26 trail bike.

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    Will 650B wheels fit into a first generation blur? The one from about 6-7 years ago?
    Maah Daah Hey

  43. #43
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    Well, to be honest, I have a bit of a quiver as well, though I only really ride the Blur. One son rides my old Foes FXR.. The other son rides my old Ventana El Saltamontes. I also have an original fullly rigid, steel VooDoo Bizango. So my assortment of bikes is more of a hodge podge than anything that is particularly useful to me for different types of riding the way a 29er and a 26er would be. I definitely get the idea of having more than one bike along those lines. I'm just not there at the moment.

    thumbs up back atcha.


    kev

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kanza View Post
    Wow...carbon reynolds and unnamed rear tyres? interesting mix
    I had/have a Crossmark 650b, I think I can say that now.
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    I personally can't wait until SC releases a 27.5 wheel trail bike. With any luck, they'll create one in the same vein as the TRc but with slightly more travel - you would have to match up to the Fox 34 at 140-160mm of travel, with 150 being the sweet spot. I'm betting the toughest choice for Mr. Graney is deciding how both a long(ish)-travel 27.5 trail bike can co-exist with the Nomad in their line-up. I personally think the Nomad covers the enduro/AM crowd with a few purposeful suspension choices (i.e. long fork and coil / Push link shock), while a modified Blur LTc in a 27.5/650b size would rule the pedally trails with a bit of gnar. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Nomad beefed up in some fashion (kit options, head angle, shock rate), and the Blur LTc (27.5/650 size) get a low bb with ISCG tabs, slack head angle, and an appropriately steep seat tube angle for pedalling. Although the 27.5/650 thing may influence those angles outside of what we know as normal on a 26-er (as they did with 29"). Regardless, when SC brings it, it will likely be the best one out there and I can't F'n wait!

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    Quote Originally Posted by indyfab25 View Post
    They are making one. They just are not telling folks. Hints abound. They are not stupid, after all.
    Where have you seen the hints?

  47. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by kboth View Post
    Where have you seen the hints?
    Pure speculation AFAIK. I've been following closely and know of not one single indication other than "My sister's cousin's best friend's uncles's baby momma said its coming"

    Trust me, I'm really hoping for a 650b from SC, and would be surprised if they didn't create one . . . but if history repeats itself, they're going to let the rest of the industry cut their teeth, learn from their mistakes and then release a great bike from the 1st go round. Similar to the approach they took with creating a long-travel 29er.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

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    Santa Cruz isn't gonna spend the money to make. 650b until they have to. Look how bad they re eating crow about the142 rear ends. I bet if you ask mouthy Mike he ll still say they don't need it. Whatever Mike. Everyone knows your full of sh-t at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBrady View Post
    Santa Cruz isn't gonna spend the money to make. 650b until they have to. Look how bad they re eating crow about the142 rear ends. I bet if you ask mouthy Mike he ll still say they don't need it. Whatever Mike.Everyone knows your full of sh-t at this point.

    Aaaaaand everyone else also knows that he's no longer affiliated with SC bikes.
    Alcohol may lead nowhere, but it sure is the scenic route!

  50. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by OO7 View Post
    Aaaaaand everyone else also knows that he's no longer affiliated with SC bikes.
    Now, that was funny

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