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  1. #1
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    200 x 57mm shock on a Nickel = 142mm of travel!

    I know Tobiwan has done it. Anyone else out there who has done it? What tire are you running? How much room is there? How is the ride! Now remember the shock length is the same, the only difference is a 7mm longer stroke. I am thinking the Nickel would be perfect with 140mm of travel from and rear. At 125mm, it's kind of a heavy bike. At 140mm, it's starting to get more acceptable, as far as weight goes.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  2. #2
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    I have. Used an RP23 Boost Valve model with low velocity tune, medium compression. I switched oils and reset IFP to 200psi. Tires are 26x2.25 Maxxis Crossmark, don't know the exact clearance but it wasn't even close to being worrisome. Works very nicely!
    "Adventure begins where good judgment ends."

  3. #3
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    From another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by HHMTB View Post
    Doood!! MC Shawn, you're making this way more difficult and absurd than it needs to be, buddy. Take out the guesswork and do this:

    Make sure your tires are nice and pumped up. Lean your bike up against something or put it in a wheel stand so the bike is upright. Unbolt your rear shock from either end (I usually pick the side that mounts to the link). Lower the frame slowly until the rear tire contacts the seat tube. Measure eye to eye of the frame to the link. If the number is less than 5.625" (that's 7.875 - 2.25) you're good to go with the longer stroke shock.

    Also consider, 650b wheels are 27.5" diameter or .75" larger radius than standard 26" wheels. If people can put 650b wheels into the Nickel without issue, it'll take a VERY large 26" tire to induce contact with the longer stroke mod.
    Ok smarty pants, make me feel really stupid! That's a good idea, I think. I'm still trying to work that in my head. I'll try it tomorrow. And, I won't be using 650's.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  4. #4
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    From another thread:

    [QUOTE=noosa2;9776171]
    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_03 View Post
    I believe that's what he is saying, yes.

    The 17mm number gets multiplied by some trigonometric function, yielding a number smaller than 17mm (although, it's probably not 7mm precisely).

    QUOTE]

    Thanks ghost.

    This is what I was really trying to figure out. What formula did MCS use to determine that at full compression a 7mm increase in stroke put the rear wheel 7mm closer to the seattube.

    I had tons of fun 4 - 5yeas ago changing my turner 6 pack to a 5 pack, 5.5 pack and 7pack. I cannot wait to add some travel to my nickel.
    I realize that the front side of the wheel is going to move more then the 7mm of increased stroke that the longer shock has, because the front side of the wheel is behind the pivot. But, I also realize that the wheel moves up and in towards the seat tube and not just towards it. So, I figure that the 2, mostly cancel themselves out.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by HHMTB View Post
    I have. Used an RP23 Boost Valve model with low velocity tune, medium compression. I switched oils and reset IFP to 200psi. Tires are 26x2.25 Maxxis Crossmark, don't know the exact clearance but it wasn't even close to being worrisome. Works very nicely!
    Right on! Thanks.

    So, how is the ride with the 57mm shock?
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Ok smarty pants, make me feel really stupid! That's a good idea, I think. I'm still trying to work that in my head. I'll try it tomorrow. And, I won't be using 650's.
    It'll work. Would I lie to you?

    For those looking in, 650b + this longer stroke mod = death. Probably. I haven't tried it, but it didn't look promising when I was looking at things. Just putting that out there so no one can say "so and so said this would work" after they bust their teeth out.
    "Adventure begins where good judgment ends."

  7. #7
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    I am interested in obtaining the increased travel but not if I have to buy a new shock. I have been doing some searches and it seems like the 7.875" eye to eye float shocks are all the same initial stroke but then just modified with spacers. Does the stock float rl that comes with the nickel have a spacer in it that limits the stroke to 2.00 inches down from 2.25 inches? If so can this spacer just be removed to obtain the increased travel? Also, anyone have a good link on how to do this?

    -Brett

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes475 View Post
    I am interested in obtaining the increased travel but not if I have to buy a new shock. I have been doing some searches and it seems like the 7.875" eye to eye float shocks are all the same initial stroke but then just modified with spacers. Does the stock float rl that comes with the nickel have a spacer in it that limits the stroke to 2.00 inches down from 2.25 inches? If so can this spacer just be removed to obtain the increased travel? Also, anyone have a good link on how to do this?

    -Brett
    I don't think there is enough of the shock shaft left for an extra 7mm of compression.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post

    I realize that the front side of the wheel is going to move more then the 7mm of increased stroke that the longer shock has, because the front side of the wheel is behind the pivot. But, I also realize that the wheel moves up and in towards the seat tube and not just towards it. So, I figure that the 2, mostly cancel themselves out.
    Oh sure. I didn't mean to imply that you're wrong, I was just trying to expand on it.

    I too suspect that it should be something around 7mm. It's just I don't think it's going to be exactly 7mm, in the way that a 10mm spacer under the stem will move the bars 10mm.
    '12 Santa Cruz Superlight 29 | '12 Santa Cruz Butcher | '06 Specialized Allez Comp | '81 Schwinn Converted Fixie

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hermes475 View Post
    I am interested in obtaining the increased travel but not if I have to buy a new shock. I have been doing some searches and it seems like the 7.875" eye to eye float shocks are all the same initial stroke but then just modified with spacers. Does the stock float rl that comes with the nickel have a spacer in it that limits the stroke to 2.00 inches down from 2.25 inches? If so can this spacer just be removed to obtain the increased travel? Also, anyone have a good link on how to do this?

    -Brett
    I was asking the same exact questions on the other thread. I am fairly certain it is just a spacer limiting the travel.

    We need to figure out how to remove this spacer....

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by sriracha View Post
    I was asking the same exact questions on the other thread. I am fairly certain it is just a spacer limiting the travel.

    We need to figure out how to remove this spacer....
    Bottom the shock out and see if there is 7mm left on the shaft. I don't think there is. Or just measure 57mm from the seal and down the shaft. Hold your panties, I'll go do it........Ok, I just measured 58mm, so here is enough shaft. I would think the air chamber would be a different size. But, I don't know if that is true.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  12. #12
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    FWIW, since the leverage ratio is falling deep in the travel, you likely won't get the 142.5mm of expected travel. By the time you're 130 or 140mm into the wheel travel, the leverage ratio should be considerably below 2.5.

    Still seems like a great idea though, and there'd be even less than the expected chance of tire rubbing at bottom out.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant View Post
    FWIW, since the leverage ratio is falling deep in the travel, you likely won't get the 142.5mm of expected travel. By the time you're 130 or 140mm into the wheel travel, the leverage ratio should be considerably below 2.5.

    Still seems like a great idea though, and there'd be even less than the expected chance of tire rubbing at bottom out.
    Does the falling rate at the end of the travel mean that the shock will blow through the last part of the travel or ramp up during the last part of the tavel or neither?

    This site shows that the butcher has the same falling rate towards the end of the travel as the nickel but then suddenly rises right at the end. I wonder if the nickel would perform the same if it gets 17mm's more travel?

    Linkage Design: Santa Cruz Nickel & Butcher
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. #14
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    The falling leverage ratio would produce ramping up. Interesting that the butcher's ratio starts to climb right at the end of the travel--seems odd to me. I wonder too what the Nickel's rate curve would be doing past the 125mm mark, as I assumed it would continue falling steeply.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by obfsk8r View Post
    The falling leverage ratio would produce ramping up. Interesting that the butcher's ratio starts to climb right at the end of the travel--seems odd to me. I wonder too what the Nickel's rate curve would be doing past the 125mm mark, as I assumed it would continue falling steeply.
    Well, they both have the same basic geo. In regard to the leverage ratio, is the Butcher just a Nickel with a longer shock? I would think that a longer stroke would just keep ramping up at the end, that's what Sants Cruz told me would happen, which would give it a bottomless feel.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Cycle Shawn View Post
    Well, they both have the same basic geo. In regard to the leverage ratio, is the Butcher just a Nickel with a longer shock?
    This is a good thought, but checking the geometry pages for the Nickel and Butcher shows it to not be the case.

    Aside from the general differences--HA, SA, Top Tube Length (where the Nickel is a smidge sportier), the main one of concern for this discussion is the chainstay length, which is .4" longer on the Butcher, giving room for the longer travel.

    I suspect that the Nickel will see that final turn in the leverage ratio with the longer shock, but I can tell you I don't even feel it on my Butcher--it's only a few mm out of a whole bunch.

    Thanks for this discussion everyone, I'm thinking I might try making my Butcher 160mm or so if I swap to a coil.
    '12 Santa Cruz Superlight 29 | '12 Santa Cruz Butcher | '06 Specialized Allez Comp | '81 Schwinn Converted Fixie

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by albeant View Post
    FWIW, since the leverage ratio is falling deep in the travel, you likely won't get the 142.5mm of expected travel. By the time you're 130 or 140mm into the wheel travel, the leverage ratio should be considerably below 2.5.

    Still seems like a great idea though, and there'd be even less than the expected chance of tire rubbing at bottom out.

    I was thinking the same thing...the leverage ratio would make the shock get progressively stronger, and potentially never bottom out. That's fine if the bike never gets the full 142mm of travel.

    Of course, you could just run less pressure, to utilize more travel. This might result in a more supple initial part of travel, as well.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by sriracha View Post
    I was thinking the same thing...the leverage ratio would make the shock get progressively stronger, and potentially never bottom out. That's fine if the bike never gets the full 142mm of travel.
    I think he's saying that with lower leverage ratio, 7mm of shock travel no longer means 7x2.5 = 17.5mm, but rather, 7x2.3 = 16.1 mm, for something like 140mm.

    You pay for the "progressively getting stronger" and not bottoming out by using up more of the shock's travel at the expense of wheel travel.
    '12 Santa Cruz Superlight 29 | '12 Santa Cruz Butcher | '06 Specialized Allez Comp | '81 Schwinn Converted Fixie

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_03 View Post
    I think he's saying that with lower leverage ratio, 7mm of shock travel no longer means 7x2.5 = 17.5mm, but rather, 7x2.3 = 16.1 mm, for something like 140mm.
    Thanks, that's exactly what I meant. I was thinking the leverage ratio might even be dropping below 2.3, but looking at the Butcher's curve now has me wondering what would really be going on at the end of the extra 7mm of shock stroke.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by obfsk8r View Post
    The falling leverage ratio would produce ramping up. Interesting that the butcher's ratio starts to climb right at the end of the travel--seems odd to me. I wonder too what the Nickel's rate curve would be doing past the 125mm mark, as I assumed it would continue falling steeply.
    It does that because an air shock ramps up at the end of its travel.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost_03 View Post
    This is a good thought, but checking the geometry pages for the Nickel and Butcher shows it to not be the case.

    Aside from the general differences--HA, SA, Top Tube Length (where the Nickel is a smidge sportier), the main one of concern for this discussion is the chainstay length, which is .4" longer on the Butcher, giving room for the longer travel.

    I suspect that the Nickel will see that final turn in the leverage ratio with the longer shock, but I can tell you I don't even feel it on my Butcher--it's only a few mm out of a whole bunch.
    T
    Thanks for this discussion everyone, I'm thinking I might try making my Butcher 160mm or so if I swap to a coil.
    The Butcher/Nickel was designed for air shocks. I don't think the linear nature of a coil is going to work, especially if you go with a longer stroke, because of the Butchers higher leverage ratio at the end of its travel.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  22. #22
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Hi friends,
    so, what can I say? I am running my Nickel for 2 months now with 140 mm travel on the rear and it works perfekt.



    And I havenīt started doing this by adding a new damper. At first I used LINKAGE and modified the existing Nickel-Model by updating it with an air-shok with 200 x 57mm (metric) size and changed the wheel size to 2,5". Have a look at the enclosed picture of Linkage. It shows the bike fully compressed with 140mm and 2.5" tires - the result says that it works without any problems.



    Then I upgraded the bike with the Marzocchi Roco Air TST, which is in my opinion the best lockable air shock (sorry to Manitou, if your information would be better, I would have tried one of yours). The size is 200 x 57 mm and it fits easily in the frame. Like already mentioned the pressure is about 40% less in comparison with the Fox-Shok.



    I am using Maxxis Highroller II Tires which arenīt the smallest tires and they still have enough space to the seat stays when the damper is fully compressed.



    Overall, the bike still climbs like a goat but works even better on the downs. It is an impressive Trail-Bike (in my opinion better than a Blur TRc) and can compete with bigger bikes easily. And I think the heavy Nickel frame should last a long time, even when using it for harder actions.

    Hope these information are helpful.
    Greez form rainy Germany!

  23. #23
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    ^ Thanks Tobiwan for posting that! So, I see that the leverage ratio does not start to raise back up like the Butcher does, at the end of its travel with a longer stroke shock. Some one posted that chart in the Butcher/Nickel thread. It looks like this is a very good idea. My apologies to Tobiwan for saying this was a bad idea, at first. I was thinking that the shock was going to be longer. But, with the same I to I length, you are just adding travel to the end of the shock stroke. It must make it feel bottomless.


    Edit: That graph of the Butcher, I talked about is above in this thread, not the other thread.
    Last edited by Mountain Cycle Shawn; 10-14-2012 at 05:20 PM.
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  24. #24
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    Hey Tobiwan,
    How much sag are you using?
    '96 San Andreas
    '12 Santa Cruz Nickel LT
    '08 KTM 530
    '12 Toyota FJ TT
    '05 MiniCooper S
    '95 Honda HB Si
    '71 Dino 246 GT

  25. #25
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    Sweet. Thanks for the info!

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