Results 1 to 13 of 13
  1. #1
    MW
    MW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    724

    06 Chameleon + King Steelset?

    Question: do the 2006-era Chameleon frames have an internally-butted headtube that makes deep-skirt headsets (like the King Steelset) a bad idea?

    I've seen the V10 FAQ that recommends against these headsets for that frame, but I haven't found anything--neither an SC FAQ nor an mtbr.com thread--that addresses this question for the Chameleon. Any feedback is appreciated.

    --MW

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,633
    Why do you need a steelset?

  3. #3
    mtbr member
    Reputation: tryallrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    265
    Just curious what you are doing with a chameleon that you would need a king steel set for?

  4. #4
    MW
    MW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    724
    That seems to be the inevitable question whenever someone on MTBR asks about a SteelSet. Seriously, I had a hard time finding any SteelSet threads that didn't devolve to this point. The subsequent point, based on past threads, will be whether or not my intended application -needs- or -warrants- a SteelSet . . . with the eventual upshot being that few people at MTBR seem to find any legitimate uses for a SteelSet. Got it.

    I'm sorry to sound smug here, but I'm just saying: my question isn't about need or application. My question is about the '06-gen Chameleon head tube, and whether it's internally butted such that SteelSet removal would be especially difficult or painful. I'd still love some feedback on this point.

    That said, the application is an '06 Chameleon frame with an '05 135mm Fox Float that's intended for urban play, skate parks, and general drop/jump skills practice under a ~200lb rider. The bike will also see secondary use as a "loaner" trailbike for taking non-MTB friends on the occasional trail ride.

    My sense of the Chameleon is that it should not -require- a SteelSet to avoid headtube problems in this application. That said, if I can put my hands on a SteelSet for the cost of a standard King, why wouldn't I go with the extra strength and peace of mind?

    --MW

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: tryallrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    265
    weeerd! I wasnt trying to bust em just wondering what you were doing with your bike man no harm intended. I do belive for any type of riding a regular king headset is strong enough and a heck of alot lighter.

    Call santa cruz i dont think youll have a problem using the headset but i would just talk to someone in the tech dep. they a real cool people over there.

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Franz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    433
    The point is that if you are using a fairly lightweight XC hardtail with a skinny air-sprung QR fork for 'urban play, skate parks and general drop/jump skills', the strength of your headset will be the least of your problems...

    Tryallrider's right, you shouldn't have a problem fitting it. Although, internal butting or not, they are a royal blue bastard to remove.

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: tryallrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    265
    Franz good call. Removing them would suck didnt even think of that!

    Good luck with the build.

    Cheers

  8. #8
    MW
    MW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    724
    On Topic
    The question of internal butting isn't moot: depending on where (or if) the head tube is butted, the headset skirts may actually extend -past- the butt area. If this happens, headset removal isn't simply an issue of force, since your typical headset removal tool won't be able to seat against the edge of the cup . . . it'll actually slip between the cup skirt and the head tube, seating against the butt itself. I've no idea how you'd ever remove a deep-skirt headset in this scenario, but I assume it sucks.

    Hence, my question remains about the butting of Chameleon head tubes. However, it's a point well taken about contacting Santa Cruz directly, and I'll post back to this thread with the outcome.


    Off Topic
    I really didn't mean to come off too strong in my response. Those initial replies just seemed to fit the vein of "no one on g0d's green earth -needs- a SteelSet." And really, that wasn't my question.

    That said, I'm not sure I agree with the characterization of the Chameleon as a "fairly lightweight XC hardtail." My understanding of this frame--and I'm willing to be wrong here--is that it falls rather in the middle of the spectrum between jump/freeride burly and lightweight XC delicate.

    If that's correct, I still think I'm on the right track for my intended use: "urban play" in my world simply isn't "big" by most standards. This project is about skills development for a longtime XC oriented rider who, in the last year, has been increasingly focused on technical bike handling. I want a bike to -play- with when I'm away from dirt: learn to manual properly, learn to bunnyhop more than a rock on the trail, learn to consistently wheelie-drop ledges, learn to control a bike with platforms pedals, etc. It's unlikely that I'll ever session of legitimate dirt jump or drop to flat from more than ~3ft, and skate parks are really just stand-ins for pump tracks (flowing lines around and between bowls).

    In this light, the off-topic question I'd put back to the board is whether--as Franz suggests--I've actually misread the intended use of the Chameleon?

    --MW

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Franz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    433
    I don't mean to pour scorn on your intended build, and it sounds like the Cham will be pretty much ideal for the riding you describe. And if you can get a steelset for the price of a regular CK, then why the heck not. I don't own a Chameleon, but both my '07 Heckler and my friend's '06 have externally-butted HTs - I would have thought it would be the same across the range, so you should be OK in that department.

    My point was that there are a lot of other mods you can make to your Chameleon that will deliver a whole lot more, in terms of noticeable performance, than an uber-beefy headset.

  10. #10
    MW
    MW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    724
    Quote Originally Posted by Franz
    My point was that there are a lot of other mods you can make to your Chameleon that will deliver a whole lot more, in terms of noticeable performance, than an uber-beefy headset.
    Completely, 100% agreed on this point . . . not the least of which is a 9mm bolt-on hub for that QR Float.

    --MW

  11. #11
    MW
    MW is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    724
    Just to close this off for others who may come searching later, I heard back from Danny Ward at Santa Cruz:

    From my experience once that headset goes in usually it will not come out at
    least on our bikes. The head tube is recessed after the initial lip so I am
    not sure how you would remove it
    Necessary, nice-to-have, or otherwise . . . Chameleon + SteelSet doesn't sound like a great idea.

    --MW

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,633
    MW, I am sorry if it come off as being rude, just curious as I have heard the same thing you have talked about by others here. Just curious as to the use. I personally like Cane Creek Headsets so you could consider the tank or something like that from them. I do not believe it goes as deep.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    355

    how to check this

    You can check this out yourself pretty easily if you have the frame with headset removed.

    First, stick your finger in there to see if its internally relieved. If it is, then you have to measure how long the "thick" section is on the top and bottom. You could use a tape measure to do this. You need the press-in diameter "thick section" on the top and bottom to be an inch long or longer.

    If its not an inch long, you have two options:

    1. Install it anyway, and when you need the headset back, you'll be cutting the frame open to extract it. Maybe thats not a big deal if the frame is already fairly beaten.
    2. Bring that steelset by your local machine shop (or get a six-pack, a vice, blade buide, hacksaw and some files) and remove enough of the HS skirt so you'll be able to extract using a traditional removal tool.

    Good luck!
    here we go again

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •