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  1. #26
    get down!
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    ditto...have some Bell Laps on my Handsome Devil and can't wait to switch them out for cowbells.
    Rudy Projects look ridiculous

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    Although it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread, I have to say this comment resonates with me for sure.
    I didn't want to say it, BUT if I already had an El Mar in steel, a Ti Mukluk would make a great pairing. Snowy commutes would be a blast!

  3. #28
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    I had an orange Vaya that I bought stock with the Cowbell bars and agree the bars are awesome! I did end up selling the Vaya because I just didn't feel it for the bike... I had also built up a Casseroll a few months after buying the Vaya and like it a TON better! If you already have a Mariachi then you may be looking for a Casseroll... with the canti studs on the Cass now you can run bigger, knobbier tires if you want to hit a trail and it the bike is awesome on the road... and after upgrading to BB7's on the Vaya and still like liking then I can tell you putting a set of mini-v's on the Cass is just as good as BB7's if you don't dig cantis... although I have Paul Touring on my Cass and they are great...

    one other suggestion is to look at Black Mountain Cycle's framesets... Mike, the owner, has a ton of experience in the industry and designs one heck of a bike...
    Black Mountain Cycles: Black Mountain Cycles Frames
    Like is too short to grow up, go ride a bicycle!

  4. #29
    Kaishingo
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    Before making my choice on the Casseroll, I spent some time playing with a friend's Vaya. It's a cool bike - it just felt a little "sluggish" to me. I wanted something that leaned a little more towards a road bike, and fixated on the Casseroll. It's a great do anything bike - just not really given much attention since the stock build makes the bike look like that it's hiding in the back of math class playing d&d.

    It's my gravel bike, and my pavement commuter. If I changed the 42c Conti Speeds on there right now (with plenty of room to spare, btw), I'm sure it'd hold it's own on a road ride. And it has more eyelets then I know what to do with (like these funny ones that sit mid-seatstay???) I don't mind the cantis - probably because I grew up in an era of mountain bikes where John Tomac raced downhill with a 60tooth ring and OMG - canti brakes.

    Oh - I have Cowbells, and agree, they are the nicest road bars I've ever ridden.

    Regarding Black Mountain - nice, affordable stuff. However, don't understand why you would put a rack mount on the drop out, but rely on wrap clamps for the seat stay??
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  5. #30
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    I wonder if they will make the casseroll in a disc version this year (2013)

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by designmaki View Post
    I wonder if they will make the casseroll in a disc version this year (2013)
    Not really a need for it, IMO.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
    Not really a need for it, IMO.
    Except for discs being better

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by designmaki View Post
    I wonder if they will make the casseroll in a disc version this year (2013)
    I really hope not... not every bike has to have disc brakes!
    Like is too short to grow up, go ride a bicycle!

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ser jameson View Post
    Except for discs being better
    You might find some differing opinions among the quasi-roadie crowd. Personally, I'd find those two bikes to be too much alike, and you'd have to beef up the fork of the Cass to use discs, which would probably change that bike a bit too much. I liked the Cass for the lively, springy ride. A burly fork would not be my choice for an "upgrade".

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
    you might find some differing opinions among the quasi-roadie crowd. Personally, i'd find those two bikes to be too much alike, and you'd have to beef up the fork of the cass to use discs, which would probably change that bike a bit too much. I liked the cass for the lively, springy ride. A burly fork would not be my choice for an "upgrade".
    +1...
    Like is too short to grow up, go ride a bicycle!

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by bmike View Post
    what i wished for was that the bike felt more 'alive'...
    +42 on lost love for the Vaya.

    I had it. It's not that it wasn't the lightest thing out there, it just always felt lazy, slow, and unstable. It was twitchy/squirrly on the road and just felt plain wrong off the roads. I went the serious upgrade route and got a Mosaic custom Ti frame that is freakin awesome! (It's similar geo to a Lynskey Pro Cross though.) It's fast on the roads, stable and nimble on mellow singletrack, and felt fine on DK200 this year. I've have a small bikepacking seat bag made and that works great too.



    Since I got the Mosaic I hated riding the Vaya even more - I even dreaded the 0.7 miles to the grocery store. Since we weren't meant for each other I sold it. A lot of folks DO like the Vaya so it only took an hour for someone to ring me after listing online. Later that day I took home an El Mariachi Ti Dubbed Elmer, this thing is a blast! The frame just fits, and it rides like it's on rails. There are some tweaks I'll make (bars and grips) but I can tell the frame and geo are spot on.

    El Mariachi felt amazing right away. The Vaya never felt right. You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em...

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by sdemars View Post
    it just always felt lazy, slow, and unstable. It was twitchy/squirrly on the road and just felt plain wrong off the roads.
    Wow...lots wrong with the Vaya for you!! Interesting, cuz I have the exact opposite feel. I'm curious about the "lazy, slow" followed up by "twitchy/squirrely" though...

    Quote Originally Posted by sdemars View Post
    I went the serious upgrade route and got a Mosaic custom Ti frame that is freakin awesome!
    You spent more on a frame than the entire Vaya! It better be THAT FREAKIN' AWESOME!!

    Quote Originally Posted by sdemars View Post
    Since we weren't meant for each other I sold it.
    I had a similar experience with a "dream bike" that I parted with this year - my '08 Cervelo Soloist Carbon. Sad, but some times it's easy to fall in love with the idea of the bike, and there are things that a quick demo ride won't flush out.

    Quote Originally Posted by sdemars View Post
    El Mariachi felt amazing right away. The Vaya never felt right. You gotta know when to hold em, know when to fold em...
    Yep - the El Mar is one of my most favorite rides - once I got the size right.

  13. #38
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    The Vaya felt sluggish more than slow. It was more like a truck. It would get up to speed and roll at a decent clip but it didn't get going fast and it took more diesel power to keep it at speed.

    Twitchy - well I never could take my hands off the bars for more than 2 seconds. This is the ONLY bike I've ever felt this way about and that includes a Ridley, Litespeed, G Fisher, Surly, Rocky Mtn, Giant, blah blah blah. I don't understand it, and can't explain why it did it, but I can say I didn't like it. What's the antonym for inspiring confidence?

    The cost of my Mosaic: Is it worth it? My wallet may be empty but it does look like this


    So yeah, absolutely. And the wheels are worth it too More pix here if ya want a look.

  14. #39
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    Yeah - my Chili Con Crosso is a much better/faster/livelier ride too by comparison, but people gotta understand that the Vaya is not a CX bike.

    Your explanation above makes more sense though.

    Were you using the stock wheel set and tires on the Vaya? Which particular one did you have? I have the Vaya 2, all stock except for the saddle, and seat post, which is a Thudbuster ST. I even thought the stock tires were great off-pavement.

    I see you're running Small Block 8's - awesome tires for almost everything. I had them on my La Cruz - I just wish they came bigger than a 35c. That said, I'll be putting a set on my Chili soon.

  15. #40
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    I had the brown (I think 2011) when there was only 1 version. Loved the looks of that year. The ride was the worst with the stock wheels but still not awesome with the DT240/crest wheelset I picked up.

    You are right though, it's not a CX bike. I'd say the ride is closer to touring bike feel than CX bike. I suppose I decided I wanted more of a CX bike but one that I may never take to a CX race. Mine was purpose built for long stuff like DK200. Although you the discs aren't needed there they're handy in other events with different (bigger) hills and terrain - I'm thinking South Park Dirty Fondo and R2G2.

    The stock tires on mine were damn heavy but fine other than that. I've run SB8 and Ritchey Speedmax. I prefer the Kendas and agree on the size. I'd like to find something with a similar tread at 40-42c for R2G2. I'm anti-Specialized so their stuff is out (no need to rant here). Vaya did have awesome clearance though...and the breakaway hangers do work (a friend's Vaya there with the stick):


  16. #41
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    How slow and sluggish does the vaya feel on the road? I mean can anyone quantify it somewhat.
    What actually makes a bike feel slow and sluggish? I have a bike with Head angle 72.5 and mechanical trail of 57mm and supposedly 57-58 is the exact spot of what is regarded as neutral. The vaya in my size would have a Headangle of 71.5 and a mech trail of 61mm so a little more sluggish in both accounts. I think my current bike is stable at all speeds even with no hands. But its not very comfortable as a long range bike so I'm looking to buy a new one.

    It will have a rack in the back but thats it pretty much. I have been looking at the vaya/vaya ti and Shand stooshie and also the Cotic x. The shands and cotic will definitely have shorter stays, the shand also has the same angle and the cotic is slacker, the shand has a45mm rake fork so the trail is longer. Anyone care to guess if any of those would feel less sluggish than the vaya?

    the Product of COTIC cycles : X steel cyclocross
    Stooshie frame geometry: Reynolds 853 steel cyclocross frame

    I'm kinda torn between these 3 frames, and I get a bit worried about the vayas reputation.
    I will use the bike as a commuter and it will be running road tires (and studded winter tires).
    all 3 frames are a gamble for me since they only stock taiwan mass produced brands here so a test ride is out of the question unfortunately. I have to go by other peoples impressions/guesses.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

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  17. #42
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    The vaya definitely feels like a touring bike, a bit peppier than the LHT, but definitely on the touring spectrum. A nice touring bike but long chainstays and highish trail. I can't really quantify it but it definitely lacked the 'zoom' for me. Which isn't really a function of weight, partially tubing, partially geometry. I'm a biggish guy so take that into account too. For comparison, the two bikes I have now are a Rawland dSogn with a 73 head angle and mechanical trail of around 45, and a CrossCheck with a custom fork (and disc brakes) 72 head angle & mechanical trail around 56 or so.

    The best description of the difference I've heard between low and mid trail is that with low trail, you steer with your hands, with mid-trail you steer with your hips. The steering on the Vaya didn't feel precise. On the rawland you pick right where you want to go and it goes exactly there, on the NotACheck, you cruise it to the right spot. The Vaya felt cramped (I probably had too small of a frame) and the steering felt flat, it didn't miss where you were going but it didn't exactly move you there. The chainstays are shorter on the CC and it definitely feels more zippy because of it. If I were touring, it would have been ok, on gravel, probably ok as well, but roads & trails & some dirt & gravel, it just didn't work for me.

  18. #43
    djw
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    I think the sluggishness with the vaya comes from the wheelbase rather than trail or steering angle. I just converted my Casseroll to a mullet with a vaya fork and bb7 road front disc. The heavy fork adds a bit of harshness to the ride (especially with <28c tires) but the bike still carves a decent line. The head angle has slackened to 71.5 (same as the vaya) but the cass still has 25mm shorter chainstays and the wheelbase is not surprisingly also 25mm shorter. Since I have no heel clearance issues with the bags I think the Cassevaya mullet is a great solution for me.
    Last edited by djw; 08-25-2012 at 07:37 PM.

  19. #44
    ejj
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    The Vaya IS a touring bike. Almost same body position as a Long Haul Trucker. SLIGHTLY lighter/peppier tubeset. If you want something faster/quicker, there are many options...

  20. #45
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    Good info here guys! Thanks for responding. I really like the Vayas features and so many people seems to be so happy with them, I'm just a bit uncertain since its quite a lot of dough. And I want to be happy with it if I eventually get it.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.

    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles View Post
    Specialized sucks ass.

  21. #46
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    I just got the Ti Vaya myself. Its a great bike. The local bike shop sized me on it (56). I changed out a lot of the parts but the most important changes have been the handlebar (Cowbell 2) and the stem (100mm Thomson). I ride this bike as my gravel/road/cx bike. The thing to remember is this bike is a touring bike! It will do other things well, but not perfectly.

    I think the bike feels great on gravel. Very stable, fast, great for long rides and can be light!

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twebb View Post
    The thing to remember is this bike is a touring bike! It will do other things well, but not perfectly.

    ... Very stable, fast, great for long rides and can be light!
    Key point there ^^^ the better you do one thing the less well you do other things. It's just a fact of specialization. Also, there ARE many folks who love their Vayas - I'm just not one of em. For me personally the touring geometry feels horrible. If I were to get a stock frame I'd personally go with the Warbird, but then again it's rather different from the Vaya - and I don't care about racks n fenders.

    ...light, however, is a relative term. A specific weight is absolute. I got my Vaya to 24# with a change in wheels and tires. This did seem light compared to the stock build. With the new Whisky carbon straight disc fork and a bit more cash I could go as low as 22# but I doubt I could really shave more off that. My Ti mosaic is 18.5. My old CX bike was a Ridley X-Fire, which I've seen built up at 15#! Hardly makes the Vaya seem light.

  23. #48
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    Hey car bone,

    feel free to email or PM me with any questions you have on the Shand stuff and I'll see if I can help you out.

    Cheers

    Steven

  24. #49
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    So a bit of an update. I sold the Vaya and am building up a Cross Check. I borrowed one for two weeks and put a good 10 hours on it and was much happier overall. It felt quicker and lighter while still being adequate on dirt.

    Hopefully this will be my last bike build for a while.

  25. #50
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    When I first got the Vaya I had the exact same feelings...so instead of selling it right away, since it is my commuter/road/gravel/travel bike, I invested in some nice wheels built my Mike Curiak. I wouldn't have believed it, but the bike came alive after I put those on. It feels much more vibrant and it hums the road. I've put a lot into the bike and am over all happy with it. It isn't as fast as I would like, but it sure is very comfortable.

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