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  1. #1
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    2013 Salsa Ti No Longer US Made?

    I've been reading all I can about the 2013 Salsa El Mariachi Ti that I ordered, and a couple posts that I came across seemed to indicate that for this upcoming model year Salsa has moved production away from Lynskey to an overseas manufacturer.

    Do any of you know where I can find substantive information on whether or not this is true? I know that there's plenty of great welding done overseas, but I must admit that the US manufacturing of the previous model years was a bit of a selling point for me.

  2. #2
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    I just came across this thread which seems to answer my questions.

  3. #3
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    It has moved away from Lynskey.


    Which puts it on my "want" list.

  4. #4
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    Why's that? I've never seen anything from Lynskey that I disliked, except for one teammate's helix-downtube bike which seems to be needlessly heavy.

  5. #5
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    I've seen (and I mean in person) more cracked/badly formed Lynskey-made Ti frames than all other frames put together. Maybe I was just unlucky in that I worked in a shop that sold a few.

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    Huh, interesting. Thanks.

    Now if the 2013s would only ship sooner...

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    Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have yet to have an issue with an offshore frame. The only thing I've seen that is consistent with American made frames is a much higher price for a "perceived" better value. Quite frankly, I don't see it. Just my opinion though.

  8. #8
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    I think it's less about quality and more about just knowing that one's frame was made domestically. I'd definitely pick the quality product over the brand (read: origin) almost every time, though.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by axebiker View Post
    Maybe I'm just lucky, but I have yet to have an issue with an offshore frame. The only thing I've seen that is consistent with American made frames is a much higher price for a "perceived" better value. Quite frankly, I don't see it. Just my opinion though.
    This has been my experience also.

  10. #10
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    If you take one of the domestically made '12 frames and compare it to an offshore made '13 frame I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Far more tube shaping, cast dropouts instead of lazer-cut, additional butting, nicer finish, the list goes on and on.

  11. #11
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    I have heard great things about the new frame and have one on order. I think the reality is that many of the larger manufacturers can incorporate a lot more technology into the frames than the small American builder.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Pride View Post
    I have heard great things about the new frame and have one on order. I think the reality is that many of the larger manufacturers can incorporate a lot more technology into the frames than the small American builder.
    You're from Michigan too, aren't you?

    I'm really looking forward to getting mine. I'm really wishing that I had a geared hard tail 29er for riding this week...

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by c0nsumer View Post
    You're from Michigan too, aren't you?

    I'm really looking forward to getting mine. I'm really wishing that I had a geared hard tail 29er for riding this week...

    I am from Michigan. I have owned a Ti El Mariachi and think this is going to be the best one yet. I am also riding a 29er Full Suspension right now and while a great frame (2013 Superfly 100 aluminum) I prefer the hardtail even though my back does not always.

  14. #14
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    Has the price changed with the move to overseas ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lakes road sheep View Post
    Has the price changed with the move to overseas ?
    I think it went up.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by amadkins View Post
    I think it went up.
    By all accounts it's a better frame, though.

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    Well I guess I'm just happy that I was able to get my 2011 U.S. built Ti. What a Fab bike it is! When I got my Flux a few months previously, I thought "wow - this is the best bike I've ever ridden", so the El-Mar Ti must be pretty good if it's the bike that I always want to take out. My bruv and I are off to The Brecon Beacons (Wales, UK) tomorrow for a week's biking. I'm taking the Salsa! (although I may try my brother's Flux just for a comparison LOL)

  18. #18
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    Sweet that they added a bunch of stuff no one really requested or demanded, moved it overseas, raised the price and people are still happy? Awesome. I'm a Salsa fan, but not buying the reasons why they went overseas. I'm happy to have two made in the US Lynskey frames. One Salsa, one Kona. Both ride amazing. I'm sure the new frames are quality and ride well, but don't give me the marketing BS about this or that. It's most likely about supply/price/profit margins not anything else. I didn't hear anyone complaining about the Lynskey made frames. Well, it rides good, but I sure wish the drop outs were laser cut and the top tube was butted. I'd like to hear that on the trail. I would LOL.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    Sweet that they added a bunch of stuff no one really requested or demanded, moved it overseas, raised the price and people are still happy? Awesome. I'm a Salsa fan, but not buying the reasons why they went overseas. I'm happy to have two made in the US Lynskey frames. One Salsa, one Kona. Both ride amazing. I'm sure the new frames are quality and ride well, but don't give me the marketing BS about this or that. It's most likely about supply/price/profit margins not anything else. I didn't hear anyone complaining about the Lynskey made frames. Well, it rides good, but I sure wish the drop outs were laser cut and the top tube was butted. I'd like to hear that on the trail. I would LOL.
    Eh? Salsa added things this year that are exactly what I wanted in a Ti frame and this made me buy it. Top tube cable routing, removing the exposed downtube cables? Check. Swinging dropouts? Check. Tapered head tube? Check. I think a lot of folks feel the same way.

    I've had my eye on a Ti bike for about a year now, but wasn't sure what to get. When the complete El Mariachi Ti was announced with the new frame design and the build kit was almost spot-on what I'd have put together I couldn't pass it up.

  20. #20
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    Those changes are nice. A good call to consolidate the two similar models, people were definitely requesting those changes. I personally think Alternators should be standard on every model they make.

    Happy they made you happy. Not trying to be a negative Nancy, just some of the reasons seem like marketing ploys, not truely what the customer wants. How many customers would prefer straight gauge, shaped tubing for a price decrease? How many can honestly tell a butted frame from a standard one?
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by appleSSeed View Post
    Those changes are nice. A good call to consolidate the two similar models, people were definitely requesting those changes. I personally think Alternators should be standard on every model they make.

    Happy they made you happy. Not trying to be a negative Nancy, just some of the reasons seem like marketing ploys, not truely what the customer wants. How many customers would prefer straight gauge, shaped tubing for a price decrease? How many can honestly tell a butted frame from a standard one?
    I think the weight will be noticeable, yes. Having picked up a friend's Lynskey Pro 29, I'm amazed at how heavy it is. His size small frame with a carbon Lefty and XO-level components weights more than my basic steel El Mariachi. There's a lot of weight in straight tubing, and I think those that are willing to pay for a Ti frame don't mind a little extra to get something that should be noticeably nicer.

  22. #22
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    No buying the weight argument. No way a basic El Mar weighs less a a Lynskey Pro 29 with same spec. Butting saves how much per frame of equal size?
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  23. #23
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    I own a Ti Muk, Lynskey made, and I have ridden the new Warbird Ti, and looked over the new El Mar Ti.

    I have also ridden a couple of other Lynskeys in the past.

    The new titanium models feature bending and shaping that Lynskey could not produce for Salsa. Just take one look at a Warbird's chain stays and you'll see exactly what I am talking about. I've never seen a Lynskey with such shaping. I also have been told by Salsa that their new manufacturing partner can butt the titanium in ways that Lynskey was unable to do.

    Price and marketing aside, if the end product can be made better at the foreign factory, that is a reasonable choice to consider if you want to advance the quality of product you put out as a company. If price can be similar, it becomes more attractive.

    Now- I love my Ti Muk. But if it could be made to have better butting profiles, yielding a better ride, shaping to allow for better tire clearances, and a cool tapered head tube, I would likely put my frame up for sale to get the better frame. No matter where it was made, as long as the quality was top notch.

    I like that mine is made in the U.S., but in my opinion, a Lynskey is a hit or miss frame when it comes to ride quality. I've ridden a few that were not all that great, and a couple that were. (Happily, mine is one of the better ones I've tried.) If Salsa can consistently get great quality made frames that ride consistently and are better featured, I'm all for the switch. No matter where it comes from.
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    The reality is that the technology DOES exist in the US. The difference is that the US manufacturers probably can't provide the same features for the same cost as our friends in Taiwan. I am not arguing that the quality and finishing and features of the frames made overseas are not equal to a US frame. They make very nice stuff at a much lower prices (to the manufacturer). But one thing I've noticed is that in spite of the labor rate being about 1/10 of what it is here, the pricing of the frames made overseas is increasing. I own a US made 2011 El Mar Ti and Fargo Ti. I will keep them forever. They are great. It was a HUGE reason that I bought Salsa. Not as nicely finished as some other brands, but the frames do the job and the price was nice.
    Last edited by TheHamster; 11-05-2012 at 10:04 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted View Post
    I own a Ti Muk, Lynskey made, and I have ridden the new Warbird Ti, and looked over the new El Mar Ti.

    I have also ridden a couple of other Lynskeys in the past.

    The new titanium models feature bending and shaping that Lynskey could not produce for Salsa. Just take one look at a Warbird's chain stays and you'll see exactly what I am talking about. I've never seen a Lynskey with such shaping. I also have been told by Salsa that their new manufacturing partner can butt the titanium in ways that Lynskey was unable to do.

    Price and marketing aside, if the end product can be made better at the foreign factory, that is a reasonable choice to consider if you want to advance the quality of product you put out as a company. If price can be similar, it becomes more attractive.
    Well said, and I completely agree. But my hope is that Salsa can find or develop a US manufacturing partner to build these great bikes in the future. As foreign wages continue to rise, many top companies are bringing their manufacturing back to the US, though I have not seen as much of this in the bike industry as in others. Perhaps Salsas can be a leader on this front as well.

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    Well, there are two factors that comprise the available "technology" for bending and shaping tubesets. The first is the specialized tooling to do that. The second is the LABOR to do it. Every frame manufacturer has a unique style of tubeset (butting, bending, shaping, forming, finishing) otherwise there would be no reason to choose one over another or any product differentiation. Many small American framebuilders have some really unique combinations of the above and have wonderful styling as well as ride quality. So first, the argument that the ability does not exist in the US is again, untrue. It is quite possible that Lynskey does not have the tooling to produce the specified tubes for the new frames. Or it is possible that the cost of the labor would not allow desired profit levels to the contractor (Salsa). On the other hand, since manufacturers have moved 90% of the bike infrastructure to Asia over the last 10 years, it would be far easier to find mass production lines to make what you want. That is kind of obvious. Lynskey has been around a long time and started Litespeed which was first rate quality all around. They are not new to the game and really know a lot about framebuilding. Younger riders probably don't know much about how great these frames were. And I think like any manufacturer, they have a unique "tubeset". But I have been riding a long time and not sure (other than lighter weight) that butted tubes ride a lot better since there are so many ways a tube can be constructed and manipulated. It is the same reason companies like Seven, Moots, IF, offer different levels of tubes (straight guage or butted). But most of the extra cost comes from labor of doing double pass welds, finishing, and grade of tubing. That is what you are paying for. On a mountain bike with huge tires and many wheel choices (stiff or soft) I don't know that the average rider will really feel the difference in a butted tubeset and saving the extra 4-6 ounces. If you want to see the "technology" available in America, just check out the special section on Titanium frames in the latest issue of Bicycling Magazine. That makes the overseas argument bogus. And don't forget that the prices I see on the new Salsas are bout $1K more than what I got my Lynskey El Mar Ti frame for brand new. Is it worth it? Maybe for some riders. But I could not be happier with what I have for the price. PS--I am not in the bike biz and not a frame builder. Just a rider that knows some things about metal working, production, and labor costs.

  27. #27
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    I got my Warbird Ti yesterday and it had a "made in Taiwan" sticker on the seat tube. Welds at the tube junctures look pretty good and chain stays are pretty shaped. What drew me to the Warbird Ti complete was not only that its a Ti frame but its parts spec - mostly Ultegra, excellent wheel set and tapered carbon fork. Oh, and the etched graphics are subtle and cool looking.

    If the frame was made in the US/Lynskey would have been nice but not not a factor in my purchasing decision.
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  28. #28
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    What I've heard is Lynskey could not do the forming Salsa wanted especially on the stays. A buddy has a ti Warbird and I believe the stays are flattened and Lynskey could not do this, but they can helix....

    The welds are quite good on his warbid very clean no slope.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Pink57 View Post
    What I've heard is Lynskey could not do the forming Salsa wanted especially on the stays. A buddy has a ti Warbird and I believe the stays are flattened and Lynskey could not do this, but they can helix....

    The welds are quite good on his warbid very clean no slope.
    Maybe it's just me, but I don't like the look of the helix downtube at all. I feel that it looks awkward and asymmetric.

    From everything I've read (and from spending a few hours on a steel one yesterday) I'm really looking forward to getting my El Mariachi Ti. Taiwan is well regarded for metal fabrication, and it seems like these Salsa-branded frames will be no exception.

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    I had my 2013 Fargo Ti frame (made in Taiwan) hanging up in the shop for a week before I got a chance to build it. Everyone that looked at it oogled the welds and commented how beautiful they were.

    FWIW, since Cannondale shipped production from US to Taiwan in 2010, warranty claims have decreased 38%

  31. #31
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    I recieved Ti Collosal last week, and compared to my US Fargo Ti the quality on face value seems to be on par... I actually think the etched decals look a LOT better, but we'll see once its all built up...

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Macbeth View Post
    I recieved Ti Collosal last week, and compared to my US Fargo Ti the quality on face value seems to be on par... I actually think the etched decals look a LOT better, but we'll see once its all built up...
    What side frame did you get and do you weigh it? I'm very excited for the Colossal line up.
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  33. #33
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    Just got my Warbird Ti in and it looks pretty sweet. It was on the workstand right next to a new Lynskey Pro 29. The welds were comparable but as stated, the shaping of the tubing is much more advanced than what Lynskey is doing. It's pretty sweet. I bet the frame will fit 45s. We shall see. I'll play around with it after I build the wheels. So later this week.

  34. #34
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    Ti Fargo

    Here are some beauty shots of a ti Fargo we recently received at the shop where I work. It is a Taiwanese manufactured Fargo
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2013 Salsa Ti No Longer US Made?-p1050919.jpg  

    2013 Salsa Ti No Longer US Made?-p1050925.jpg  

    2013 Salsa Ti No Longer US Made?-p1050921.jpg  

    2013 Salsa Ti No Longer US Made?-p1050922.jpg  

    2013 Salsa Ti No Longer US Made?-p1050926.jpg  

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  35. #35
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    Here my new Mariachi ti 2013 made in Taiwan. I think it has a very good quality finishes and excellent overall appearance. It is the first which arrives in Spain.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2013 Salsa Ti No Longer US Made?-salsa.jpg  


  36. #36
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    GT,

    I'm eyeing a Ti Fargo (L) for a purchase for this coming season (once I get my tax returns -ha!). What size/diameter is that downtube? I ask because I have a current gen Ti El Mar (L), and I really like the feel of the 2" downtube on that frame. I understand the Ti Fargo downtube isn't as large...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ®andyA View Post
    What size/diameter is that downtube?
    I just measured my 2013 Fargo Ti and the downtube has a 5.5 in circumfrence... which would put the diameter at 1.75". Not the 2" you were looking for, but boy is it a fun ride!

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastygrandma View Post
    I just measured my 2013 Fargo Ti and the downtube has a 5.5 in circumfrence... which would put the diameter at 1.75". Not the 2" you were looking for, but boy is it a fun ride!
    That sounds about right. I am not at work now, so I can't verify this, but I am certain it isn't a 2"er.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ircbike View Post
    Here my new Mariachi ti 2013 made in Taiwan. I think it has a very good quality finishes and excellent overall appearance. It is the first which arrives in Spain.
    That is VERY nice! Is that a medium and how much did it weight as it's pictured? Can you take some close ups of the welds?
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  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastygrandma View Post
    I just measured my 2013 Fargo Ti and the downtube has a 5.5 in circumfrence... which would put the diameter at 1.75". Not the 2" you were looking for, but boy is it a fun ride!
    Cool, thanks! That puts it at the same diameter as the previous gen version. I knew it wouldn't be as large as the Ti El Mar. But then, the Ti Fargo isn't designed for the same use/abuse as the El Mar. And the 1.75" dia is still plenty.
    Randy

  41. #41
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    I am not knocking anyone but those beads are not impressive nor are they consistent. I am NOT saying they are weak or anything.

  42. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by GNfanatic View Post
    I am not knocking anyone but those beads are not impressive nor are they consistent. I am NOT saying they are weak or anything.
    After building up half a dozen of the new TI Salsa's, the weld appearance is overall at least on par with looks on the Lynskys i've done, but not where the Moots i am building right now is at.(obviously).

    Again as you said, appearance.

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