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  1. #1
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    Slayer 142mm explained

    Hey guys, there is a lot of confusion / misunderstanding out there regarding this. I will try to clear it up...

    - When we 1st decided to re-do the Slayer, it was deemed necessary to have a thru axle on the rear wheel, for increased stiffness. So yes, regardless of the system we wound up with, if you had wanted to use a std QR on the new frame, it was never going to happen.

    - We had decided on 135mm Maxle. The 135mm Maxle uses a "common" 135x12mm thru axle hub (not compatible with QR typically).

    - Shimano came along and showed us their new 142mm x 12mm Ethru axle, which looks, feels, functions, smells and tastes exactly like the Fox / Shimano 15mm axle.

    - We jumped ship from the 135mm x 12 standard.

    - How is 135mm x 12 different than 142mm x 12? The rear disk spacing is identical, the freehub spacing is identical, the flange spacing is identical. The ONLY difference is the width of the end caps. (+3.5mm on each end).

    - In other words, if you have a 135mm x 12mm hub already, there is a 95% chance you can get new end caps and convert it.

    - The is no denying thru axle on a 165mm travel bike is a good thing. Yes, we survived for years with QR. But we also survived for years with canti brakes.

    - How is 142mm better than 135mm AND 150mm rear?
    1. neither have the shoulders to rest the axle on, auto centering the hub and making wheel installation a breeze. That's where the extra 3.5mm on each end of the hub comes in. It rests in the shoulders, so no more screwing around trying to line up the hub in the dropouts and then firing the axle through. Anyone who's ever used a rear thru axle knows what I'm talking about.

    2. 150mm requires an 83mm wide bb to fucntion properly. 83mm cranks are only available in big, heavy, dh format. That misses the point.

    3. 135 x 12 will be dead before the year is out. Mark my words...

    - At the end of the day, every cried about 15mm front axles (and I'm sure many still are) but hey, look how long it took THAT to catch on...

    Onwards and upwards!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Slayer 142mm explained-slide1.jpg  

    Slayer 142mm explained-slide2.jpg  

    Slayer 142mm explained-slide3.jpg  

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  2. #2
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    Thank you for a nice clean detailed explanation.

    Hope you don't mind if I cross post this every time someone that doesn't understand the system spouts off about flange spacing.

    Guess we'll see a 142 Maxle soon also?

  3. #3
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    De Nada. Reference away...

    I cannot confirm nor deny the existence of any Maxle 142mm.

    I wonder how many heads would have exploded if we had chosen to go Syntace X-12 instead?

    I like E-Thru. Simple, light, intuitive.
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  4. #4
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    I like the shelf resting also. Hell the simplest of the 20mm fronts is probably the Paul Turner developed one that was known as Tullio when used on the Rockshox Psylo. The end caps of the hub rest in 1mm wide shelfs on the fork dropouts making it pretty damn simple to line the axle up and shove it home before screwing it in, then swinging the cam's shut on the dropouts locking it in place. Paul's licensed it to several other fork makers besides using it for his own Maverick forks (Fox uses it on their 36 models for example). But I guess when Paul sold his Rockshox shares he didn't sell the patents he still owned also, which is why Rockshox had to come up with Maxle.

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    Looking at the interface of the axle nut that integrates into the drop out I assume this is the unique Shimano bit? Is the hanger RM design or is that also Shimano?

    Looking back at the Syntace there axle nut has a tapered interface to the frame, is there any taper involved in the Shimano nut?

    Any current Shimano hubs to be convert able? Just built up a wheelset on SLX hubs and the gf won a pair of XT wheels have not pulled apart the hub to see if they might be convert able.

  6. #6
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    Which series of hubs will the 142mm size be available in? Are these a Saint/SLX item or also in the XT/XTR range?

    I see that DT Swiss has a 135mm to 142mm conversion kit, as does Hope
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  7. #7
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    Looking at the interface of the axle nut that integrates into the drop out I assume this is the unique Shimano bit? Is the hanger RM design or is that also Shimano?

    Nope. RM part. Shimano includes a nut, but it looked like a big whitehead zit on Meagan Fox's nose, so we designed our own to integrate cleanly. Anyone want a couple thousand black anodized nuts?

    Looking back at the Syntace there axle nut has a tapered interface to the frame, is there any taper involved in the Shimano nut?

    There is a taper where the nut presses into the frame, so you can pop it out to reset the lever closing point (clock the nut), then press it back in by hand.

    Any current Shimano hubs to be convert able? Just built up a wheelset on SLX hubs and the gf won a pair of XT wheels have not pulled apart the hub to see if they might be convert able.

    Maybe Saint. Not sure if they will sell the end caps or not...
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMB-PM
    Nope. RM part. Shimano includes a nut, but it looked like a big whitehead zit on Meagan Fox's nose, so we designed our own to integrate cleanly. Anyone want a couple thousand black anodized nuts?

    Looking back at the Syntace there axle nut has a tapered interface to the frame, is there any taper involved in the Shimano nut?

    There is a taper where the nut presses into the frame, so you can pop it out to reset the lever closing point (clock the nut), then press it back in by hand.
    Maybe include a couple with each bike, I can see someone loosing it while changing a flat in the forest at dusk. Nice small detail like getting a spare hanger.

    Really digging all the fine details going into the new Rocky's.

  9. #9
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    Hey Shirk.

    "In theory" it shouldn't fall out: it's pressed in there pretty snuggily (is that a word? I guess so, if I just typed it...). You have to whack pretty hard on the other side of the axle to pop it out.

    As for spare hanger... Again, unfortunately, only comes with one, no extras... Though that's something I've thought about for years. The main thing that's stopping me from speccing an extra hanger with EVERY bike, is that, god bless the IBD, but I could see some unscrupulous ones scooping all the extras and selling them to the consumer, rather than including them with the bike as intended...
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  10. #10
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    So the flange spacing stays same, so does the wheel strength. Couldn't RMB just spec a better 135 QR and call it a day ? This 142 spec has caused you lots of hassle and it will do the same for the customer. Did you do the Pepsi taste test with 142 vs. DT RWS in the proto phase w.Dre & Co? That much different?

    Then there's the fork...if mine is bust, odd are the lbs won't have taper one (or the reducer) so I go sit in the penalty box till it's sorted (enter disgruntled underpaid warranty due a local distributor)

    I know bells & whistle's are supposed to move units and make for a better SeaDonkey vid, but try and put yourself in the buyer's shoes a bit more in 2012 and beyond. Don't get me wrong, you're close, damn close, and I wouldn't write all this if I didn't want your team to kill 'it down the road.
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  11. #11
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    Hey Islander,

    Yes, we COULD have used a better QR. But are you that convinced that a QR is the right set up for a 6.5" travel bike?

    Here are some findings of ours:

    See image of attached stiffness to weight. The top part of each column is the REAR end stiffness.

    Yes, stiffness to weight increases as weight drops.
    Yes, stiffness increases with SmoothLink suspension style vs old LC2R

    We never built a mule with a QR for testing, seemed to our pea brains that thru axle was the way forward!

    Somewhere on teh interwebz are the Syntace findings of QR vs DT vs Maxle vs X-12 (142mm). While we don't use the X-12 system, some of it rings true.

    As for the fork... By using the bigger OD headtube, it allowed us to drop the weight AND increase the stiffness of the frame at the same time. Pretty hard to turn that down. I understand what you're saying, and it's why I always try to be backwards compatible for scenarios that you described. If it's a really big concern to you, I suggest you pick up a reducer race at the same time as your brand new super super 2011 Slayer 70, so you will be prepared for all eventualities!

    And now, back to fondling 2011 samples. Love the new colors!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Slayer 142mm explained-2011-slayer.jpg  

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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMB-PM
    Hey Shirk.

    As for spare hanger... Again, unfortunately, only comes with one, no extras... Though that's something I've thought about for years. The main thing that's stopping me from speccing an extra hanger with EVERY bike, is that, god bless the IBD, but I could see some unscrupulous ones scooping all the extras and selling them to the consumer, rather than including them with the bike as intended...
    Call me a cynic but is it not more to do with the extra £25UKP you get for a crude bit of metal every time I brake one? :-) Iím on my third in a year.

    Not that I blame you all the other manufactures do it, but would be a nice touch and set you apart if you did include a spare

  13. #13
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    That answers that question...

    XTR 12mm x 142mm rear wheel
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    Rocky has mad internet skillz.

    Looking at that then looking at the XT hub drawings it looks like with an axle swap they can be made thru axle. The SLX I just built up won't be.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMB-PM
    Hey Shirk.

    "In theory" it shouldn't fall out: it's pressed in there pretty snuggily (is that a word? I guess so, if I just typed it...). You have to whack pretty hard on the other side of the axle to pop it out.

    As for spare hanger... Again, unfortunately, only comes with one, no extras... Though that's something I've thought about for years. The main thing that's stopping me from speccing an extra hanger with EVERY bike, is that, god bless the IBD, but I could see some unscrupulous ones scooping all the extras and selling them to the consumer, rather than including them with the bike as intended...
    I can name a few in ottawa that actually do that. Including ones that are rocky dealers also. And the amusing thing is with some of them, they throw out the extras with the recyling bin once they have oh, 50 of the same hanger in the box. Yet any customer who breaks the hanger on their bike is still dinged $20-30 for the spare hanger that came free with their bike in the first place. I can name one local shop that took a couple 40gallon plastic drums FULL of good new alloy stems to a metal recycler for scrap value. They do custom fittings and had sooo many OEM take off stems that they basically had to unload them at 80 cents a pound. One former rocky dealer in this area I remember used to yank all the included accessories off and sell them seperately. There's a reason I have a stack of 20+ NOS Girvin Rockrings in my basement still and its that dealer yanking them off rocky models. On one model that included even yanking off the shoulder saver pads under the noses of the saddles which Rocky had added by Velo to their brand-labeled saddled.

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    Your own dealers can be your worst enemies.

    Good to hear they are a decent solid interface, should keep people from knocking them off into the grass.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k31ron
    Call me a cynic but is it not more to do with the extra £25UKP you get for a crude bit of metal every time I brake one? :-) Iím on my third in a year.

    Not that I blame you all the other manufactures do it, but would be a nice touch and set you apart if you did include a spare
    Bah, I don't like name calling!

    Out of curiosity, who DOES include spare hangers? I've never actually come across another brand that does?
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMB-PM
    Out of curiosity, who DOES include spare hangers? I've never actually come across another brand that does?
    The only one I know off is Pinnacle and I did think it was a really nice touch, particualry when you consider most of there bikes are failry budget anyway.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMB-PM
    Bah, I don't like name calling!

    Out of curiosity, who DOES include spare hangers? I've never actually come across another brand that does?
    Fuji and GT do include spare hangers. Lapierre not only includes spare hangers in the box with the bike, they include front and rear lights too (halogen bulbs, simple 2 battery jobs but still, another thing most customers never receive with their bikes). Many don't ever get the included Fox CD manual or Fox pumps that come with fox shock/fork equipped bikes, let alone the clipless pedals that come stock either (I know of a few shops who tell the customers that the mountain bikes come the same way the road bikes do, without pedals at the higher end... they then offer to sell the customer those pedals at a "discount".

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeEight
    Fuji and GT do include spare hangers. Lapierre not only includes spare hangers in the box with the bike, they include front and rear lights too (halogen bulbs, simple 2 battery jobs but still, another thing most customers never receive with their bikes). Many don't ever get the included Fox CD manual or Fox pumps that come with fox shock/fork equipped bikes, let alone the clipless pedals that come stock either (I know of a few shops who tell the customers that the mountain bikes come the same way the road bikes do, without pedals at the higher end... they then offer to sell the customer those pedals at a "discount".
    The lights are a french thing: it's the law over there. We package our french bikes with them too... I guess they don't bother not including them for other countries...

    Fox doesn't throw in pumps anymore... In fact, I don't even think they're on the pricelist. I think it's maybe only with aftermarket stuff, not OEM.
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  21. #21
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    I know, that's my point... customer orders a fox fork say for a bike, store installs the fork, then offers to sell the customer a fox shock pump seperately. Until I bought myself a fox fork from a bike store with actual scruples, i didn't even know the pumps were included in the box.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMB-PM
    Looking at the interface of the axle nut that integrates into the drop out I assume this is the unique Shimano bit? Is the hanger RM design or is that also Shimano?

    Nope. RM part. Shimano includes a nut, but it looked like a big whitehead zit on Meagan Fox's nose, so we designed our own to integrate cleanly. Anyone want a couple thousand black anodized nuts?

    Looking back at the Syntace there axle nut has a tapered interface to the frame, is there any taper involved in the Shimano nut?

    There is a taper where the nut presses into the frame, so you can pop it out to reset the lever closing point (clock the nut), then press it back in by hand.
    Thanks for posting an explanation about 142x12mm rear axles. It's helped me understand the subject a lot more.

    One thing that's not clear to me is whether Shimano Ethru 142x12mm and Syntace X-12 142x12mm are the same thing? Do the original Shimano tapered nuts fit into Syntace X-12 frame drop outs, or do they require a matching splined rear drop out such as the Rock Mountain Slayer's or the QR15 fork?

    http://www.foxracingshox.com/fox_tec...onsQR32mm.html

    Could you use a Syntace X-12 12mm bolt thru axle or the DT RWS 12mm axle on the 2011 Rocky Mountain Slayer? Wouldn't that provide more clamping force and be stiffer again compared to the quick release Shimano Ethru axle that it comes with?

  23. #23
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    Hey,

    The E-Thru is not cross compatible w. X-12 dropouts, unless a frame manufacturer designs special adapters (and even there, not sure it would work due to overall widths etc. )

    I don' t know if the stock shimano nut fits in an X-12 dropout, but there is no face for the QR part to bite into...

    You can't use an X-12 axle on the Slayer.

    You MIGHT be able to use the RWS. I'll look into that. Limiting factors are overall length, and thread pitch.

    I'm not sure which would be a stiffer connection between RWS and E Thru: when you cam the E thru closed it's pretty tight. I'm not sure if you could create more force by spinning an RWS closed!
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by RMB-PM
    The E-Thru is not cross compatible w. X-12 dropouts
    That's unfortunate.

  25. #25
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    I'm not sure why this is an issue? Unless you really wanted to use the Shimano axle on an X-12 bike? Or you wanted to use the little fiddly X-12 bits on a Slayer?

    Any wheel that fits in an X-12 dropout will also fit in an E-Thru dropout.
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