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  1. #51
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    It does climb very well on loose surfaces, and handles babyhead cobble nicely with less random deflection than 26" wheels.
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    It does climb very well on loose surfaces, and handles babyhead cobble nicely with less random deflection than 26" wheels.
    I just want to know how this thing descends.... How does it feel? Fun, lazy, etc etc
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  3. #53
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    It actually reminds me a lot of my Slayer SXC on descents. The long front centre dimension with the big wheels and speedy steering keeps it feeling pretty safe in the bumpy descents. I still haven't tinkered with the Ride9 settings, but there's enough range there to get quite a range of feel out of the bike.
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  4. #54
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    Good to know. I am so back and forth between this and the altitude..
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  5. #55
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    One thing I noticed on today's ride is that the front end of this bike is glued to the ground, there's no lofting the front wheel onto stuff, or wheelie-ing up onto stuff, so it's good that it rolls over most anything you point it at, riding up or downhill. I was riding some stuff today that I usually have to be mindful on the 26" bike to avoid catching a tire in a hole and I didn't even look at the trail surface today, just rolled over stuff.

    In the rain today the Avid brakes sounded like a bag of stone gerbils in a rock crusher. I think a set of XT brakes will be in the pipeline soon.
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  6. #56
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    That is the trait(s) of the 29'ers I've ridden. The steamroller effect or point and shoot right over things. Personally it's one of the things I don't like about them even though it is another way to skin a cat. Also why newbies find 29'ers easier to ride. Another reason I'm on the 650B bandwagon and for me the best all around compromise....which everything is really. Pick you poison and enjoy!!
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  7. #57
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    I do notice the 48mm longer wheelbase than the Element 70 MSL on some tight and twisty trails, but it's also early in the season and my skills are at about 50% so that difference might go away in time. I do like the 1/2" extra BB height over the MSL, no pedal strikes on rooty trails. It does tackle this stuff really well, even when it was as wet as it was yesterday.

    I have noticed that annoying aspect of 2x10 drivetrains when you're in big ring and the two biggest cogs, if you backpedal even half a rotation, the chain drops down to the 3rd largest cog on the back so when you start pedaling forward again it takes a crunchy moment or two to get engaged and get moving. My 2x10 XTR drivetrain did the same thing when new, so maybe that will eventually go away too, but it's really annoying now.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    I do notice the 48mm longer wheelbase than the Element 70 MSL on some tight and twisty trails, but it's also early in the season and my skills are at about 50% so that difference might go away in time. I do like the 1/2" extra BB height over the MSL, no pedal strikes on rooty trails. It does tackle this stuff really well, even when it was as wet as it was yesterday.

    I have noticed that annoying aspect of 2x10 drivetrains when you're in big ring and the two biggest cogs, if you backpedal even half a rotation, the chain drops down to the 3rd largest cog on the back so when you start pedaling forward again it takes a crunchy moment or two to get engaged and get moving. My 2x10 XTR drivetrain did the same thing when new, so maybe that will eventually go away too, but it's really annoying now.
    I'm liking the play by play review on the bike. Keep em coming
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  9. #59
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    Ok, on longer steep climbs, the CTD is showing it's value, the Climb setting does keep it from slacking out the front end and wandering about.
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  10. #60
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    German Bike magazine tested 6 29ers with around 130mm travel. The Instinct was rated last of the bunch (but still got very good marks). So, is it really not as good as the Giant Trance, Cannondale Trigger, Specialized Stumpjumper, Scott Genius and Kona Satori? They criticized the Instinct for too much bobbing and for the sub-par components. They also rated it the least capable on the downhill, but I guess that was due to the tires.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    German Bike magazine tested 6 29ers with around 130mm travel. The Instinct was rated last of the bunch (but still got very good marks). So, is it really not as good as the Giant Trance, Cannondale Trigger, Specialized Stumpjumper, Scott Genius and Kona Satori? They criticized the Instinct for too much bobbing and for the sub-par components. They also rated it the least capable on the downhill, but I guess that was due to the tires.
    Is there an on-line version available you can link to. I'd be interested to see the article. What was the rating of the bikes top to bottom?
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  12. #62
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    Generation Fahrspaß

    Here's the scores.
    Summary:
    Cannondale Trigger: 122 points
    Giant Trance: 120,5 points
    Scott Genius: 116,75 points
    Specialized Stumpjumper: 116,25 points
    Kona Satori: 115,5 points
    Rocky Mountain Instinct: 113 points

    They tested the Instinct 950, which they weighed in at 13,75 Kg

  13. #63
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    I think I would agree on the 950 spec, I went for the 970 just because it was such a well spec'd bike for the money and had a Shimano drive train. I am thinking it will need to get some XT brakes as the Avid have become gerbily shaky brakes in wet conditions.

    I think the only way they could accuse the Instinct of having a lot of pedal bob is if they were trying to use it in Descent mode.

    After signing in and looking at the scores, all the bikes were rated as Very Good. The Instinct lost points for weight w/o pedals, and suspension efficiency but had very good pedal efficiency ratings and very good handling/geometry. It also lost points for bottle holders, which is kinda specious since you're much more likely to wear a Camelback for AM rides, and only use a WB cage for lights/batteries. It also lost points for saddle adjustability, but the 970 has the dropper post and the 950 doesn't.

    It also got top marks for stiffness.
    Last edited by rockyuphill; 03-04-2013 at 01:09 PM.
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  14. #64
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    In the magazine, they bunched all those marks together under uphill, downhill and misc scores, while in the online PDF it is clear that the Instinct looses uphill points by not having bottle holders. Kinda weird, to say the least. They also test the bike stock, they don't even change the tires to their preferred ones, which is strange to me because I have never ever ridden a bike with the stock tires (except when they were any good).

  15. #65
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    The stock Conti's definitely don't cut it unless they get RaceSport or ProTection spec tires for the German market. The Black Chili rubber Conti's make it a completely different bike than with the standard rubber X-King/Mountain King combo.

    It's been years since I mounted a water bottle cage, or even used a water bottle lighting battery mount, when ever people complain about having no place to mount bottles on anything but an XC race bike, I always think they live someplace that is always dry and has no cows near trails.

    What's interesting and not well represented in their overall scoring system is the bikes that get wildly different scores for the uphill and downhill and the total still ends up high. The Cannondale and Kona get the lowest scores for uphill and the very highest scores for downhill. That gives them a high overall score without really indicating that they are not as well rounded for AM use, but maybe closer to a light duty freeride bike.
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  16. #66
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    rocky,

    how's the clearance with the 2.2's?
    Last edited by Buster; 03-07-2013 at 07:30 PM. Reason: question answered upthread

  17. #67
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    A couple of other views of the clearance with the MK 2.2 II's in the chainstay yoke. Lots of room for a 2.4" there.
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  18. #68
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    Do you agree with the magazine about the pedal efficiency and suspension efficiency scores? Does it really bob under power? I ask because they also say that the Element 970 bobs, bit I never noticed such a treat in my bike.

  19. #69
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    If you tried riding a steep uphill in Descent mode it does bob (it can wallow badly in that situation), but in Trail mode there is no significant noticeable pedal bob. I still think a lot of reviewers don't understand that "pedal bob" specifically refers to the chain tension under pedal pressure compressing the rear suspension, I think a lot of reviewers see the shock linkage moving while they are climbing and call that pedal bob. On that basis reviewers would be claiming forks have pedal bob. That is the suspension reacting the vertical component of rider weight shift while pedaling, and it's what keeps the rear tire driven into the ground while climbing rough surfaces.

    In Trail mode the Instinct 970 climbs as efficiently as my 26" Element as far as pedal input goes. I do feel the Instinct's 8 pounds of extra weight over my 26" carbon wheeled bike on a climb, and I have a wheel change coming to help fix that. :-)

    I haven't had a chance to try the bike on a fast rough descent or a long technical descent yet, on the shorter lower speed technical descents the Instinct feels really stable. But the 970 has a dropper post where the 950 doesn't so that wouldn't be an apples to apples comparison.
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  20. #70
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    I demoed the bike below a couple weekends ago at the SE Bike Expo and really liked it but in my haste to get another bike I forgot to check the tire clearance. Thanks for the info.



    We had a lot of rain leading up to that weekend so the trails were a mess. I'd also prefer an XL instead of the L that I rode but I was able to get a pretty good feel for the bike. I wish I'd had dry trails and the right size though.

  21. #71
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    Dry trails? Hmmmmmm. I can't quite remember that
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  22. #72
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    So much for bare ground

    We were just about getting down to bare ground in the woods.....then this happened over the last 48 hours. No biggie, snowshoeing today and some XC skiing tomorrow before it starts melting next week.

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  23. #73
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    This is the first bike I've ridden with the CTD remote. I liked being able to quickly toggle between the suspension modes. It took some getting used to though...there's a lot going on with these handlebars:



    I never used the dropper post on this bike or any other that ridden. I know some people swear by them but I haven't found a need for one yet. It's nice that Rocky specs one though. This is a great spec for the price.

  24. #74
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    The sense I had that the length of the Instinct 970 felt like my 2007 SXC wasn't far off, the large Instinct has a 1158mm wheelbase, the large SXC has a 1160mm wheelbase.

    I just weighed the DT M1.6 wheels, with just the standard rim strips in place, no axles, rotors or cassettes, they are a chunky 2010 gms (930 F/1080 R).
    Last edited by rockyuphill; 03-29-2013 at 08:01 AM.
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  25. #75
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    And now for something very different. Our team is supported unofficially by RM. This bike will be raced in the BME and half of the NAET. So it must be lightweight for pedally bits, but also be solid for jump lines....

    Build -
    2013 RM Instinct 970 in custom raw
    Enve AM rims w/biggest Hans Dampfs avail
    XTR Trails with magura storm sl rotor upfront, Kettle Cycles Ceramic/Carbon rotor in rear
    Point One stem 50mm in raw
    CK Headset
    SRAM BB
    Enve DH 31" bars
    XO DH crank
    North Shore Billet XO spider
    Straitline silent guide
    Wolf Tooth XX1 10 spd chainring ( 34T )
    XT rdrlr
    XX rear cassette
    Fox switch mounted inverted where front shifter would live on lesser bikes. : )
    Reverb left under throw switch taken from my Slayer and mounted on the left side.
    KMC gold chain to match ma' grill
    Twenty6 platforms w/Ti axles

    Weight without pedals is 27.5lbs Currrently riding in the second slackest setting and loving it.
    And don't hate on my happy face seat.

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  26. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggilings View Post
    I just want to know how this thing descends.... How does it feel? Fun, lazy, etc etc
    I just plunked down a few months rent for one of these puppies. One of my first stops will be Seven Springs in western PA where there are some legit descents (for this part of the country). I'll let you know how it goes, but I'm expecting it to be killer. Can't wait to dial in the ride9 and float....pics coming this week.
    2013: RM Instinct 970

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  27. #77
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    That Raw one is bad-ass!

  28. #78
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    Is the raw frame one of the alloy bikes that were built in Canada for the press demos last fall? That is pretty spiffy. Nice wheels, BTW.

    I have broken my vow to avoid going weight weenie on the Instinct 970. Shaved 1.5 pounds off with wheels and a switch to XT brakes with XTR rotors.
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  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    Is the raw frame one of the alloy bikes that were built in Canada for the press demos last fall?
    The bike is not a press bike. This bike will be competing in the BME, most of the NAET, and one of the EWS events. We'll see how she does... though last I heard the rider has something to do with the equation. : )

    Quote Originally Posted by Buster View Post
    How's the clearance with the 2.2's?
    A hans 2.35 on the rear will rub if you are a masher at full throttle, by this I mean a Cat 1 masher running a 36T upfront single at full sprint or start practice. This is more the OEM wheelset than chassis though, a set of Enve's cured this immediately.

    If you run a 1x guide, you will put the rear shift cable in a precarious position to run a wider tire, zip ties to the rescue.

    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    Do you agree with the magazine about the pedal efficiency and suspension efficiency scores? Does it really bob under power? I ask because they also say that the Element 970 bobs, bit I never noticed such a treat in my bike.
    If you climb in descend mode in the rear, it will. If you have pressure set correctly in the rear, in trail and climb you're fine. I find the descend mode in the Fox CTD shocks to be lacking any progressiveness, and never use it. This bike excels in the trail and climb modes.

    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    ... I have broken my vow to avoid going weight weenie on the Instinct 970. Shaved 1.5 pounds off with wheels and a switch to XT brakes with XTR rotors.
    Excellent choice, on both counts. I just cannot get over how good these wheels are... ( or expensive even with team deals . ) These wheels really finish off the chassis IMHO and riding with higher pressures at race speeds downhill make pumping a fun a lively pass time.

    ----

    Lastly, someone asked about descending. As a top 10 Super-D rider in the MSC for 2012 ( for whatever this is or isn't worth to you ), I can verify to you that this bike will jump, turn, pump, and descend really well if you are used to doing these things on a 29 chassis. Manuals... not so much, but hey... As with all things, this cannot be all things, but the usual compromises made in longer travel 29ers are handily dealt with via the Ride9 bit to a large extent. This will be the 3rd long travel 29er I have raced in Super-Ds and Enduros, and in training and practice so far, it is by far the best. Time will tell though...

    The ride9 will allow you tweak per stage/event, as well as find your own sweet spot for the trails in your back yard. The steering is classic dead nuts RM neutral, the chassis takes mid-corner line changes very well, and once its on line its a bit of auto-pilot.

    Once the regional race season begins here in CO, i'll update this thread with observations on the chassis and how I get on with her.

    Also, if you own this bike, post in this thread. Let RM know your feedback, they take it to heart. And given that they are pretty much sold out ( to dealers anyways ) on these I would hope they see it in their kind hearts to produce a carbon version sooner rather than later.

    rodeoj
    Last edited by rodeoj; 04-23-2013 at 08:36 AM.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    I have broken my vow to avoid going weight weenie on the Instinct 970. Shaved 1.5 pounds off with wheels and a switch to XT brakes with XTR rotors.
    agree with rodeoj...the enves complete the package. this bike could have been in zero dark thirty
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  31. #81
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    I've got the black ENVE decals too... stealthier
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  32. #82
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    I went to the local Rocky Mountain Demo event to ride an element 950 or 970 again to make sure it was true love before pulling the trigger. I rode an Instinct 970 while there, on a whim, and the bike felt “right” from the moment I threw a leg over it. It was one of the most fun & dialed feeling bikes I have ever ridden, right from the start.

    I have to say, the RM suspension does bob, this isn’t a new thing. If I were buying a bike for suspension performance alone, I would be looking at a DW bike or similar design. The RM will most likely be my next bike because their geometry and the ride that comes with the perfect geometry for the bikes purpose. I think RMs suspension is one that does need the shock platform, but that’s fine most do…and I was completely impressed with Fox’s CTD. Previous models of Fox shocks (as well as last years Monarch) on the Element seemed to have very little change when flipping the lever. Going between C & D on the CTD is like 2 completely different bikes!

    The bike I rode was in the factory setting (neutral) My first thought was the bar mounted control for the rear shock was overkill –nope, its awesome. This bike felt like a long travel, beast of a bike on the descents, stable and very neutral, yet didn’t feel sluggish or long. The Instinct felt like it begged to be pushed much harder on the descent than most first rides let you get accustomed to. Climbing felt surprisingly efficient. Usually a bike that feels really stable on the downhill tends to be a pig on the climbs, I did not experience this. This bike is a sleeper, I never gave it a lot of thought really, and I don’t hear much about it…but I may be in love….the black is just plain badass too! I can see how some people may not like the finish for the price of the bike, it looks like someone grabbed some black paint and sprayed right over the decals. I dig it and I get it.

    My only complaints would be the weight & the price. (these 2 are directly connected) For the price of the 970, I don’t think you should have to spend a sizeable chunk of coin getting the weight down.

    One thing for sure though, this bike put the fun factor through the roof IMO. It sounds really cliché, but this bike made me want to just keep riding.
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    I've been riding my instinct for 2 months now, and love the ride, but I'm a little annoyed to say that this is the noisiest bike I've ever owned.

    I think it developed its first pivot creak 10km into my first ride on it, and after the first week sounded as bad as my Reign X got after three years without service.

    I've since had the swing link changed out under warranty, all the pivots striped, cleaned, and carefully re-assembled twice, the plastic crown race changed to metal, and I'm on a loaner wheelset while mine is getting warrantied, but the creaking comes back first ride after every trip to the shop.

    The last time, after cleaning, carefully torquing and locktiting the pivot bolts it lasted all of 35km of trail riding before the creak came back - a new record, but painfully short.

    This is annoying me because in my experience, creaking means somethings about to fail.

    Does anybody else have this same complaint? Is dust getting into the ABC pivots? Is this a warranty issue? Or am I just too heavy for this pivot design?

    I'm about 215lb without gear, and I try to ride hard, but that isn't a rediculous weight for someone that will fit an XL frame.

    Trevor

  34. #84
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    Creaking is usually more about contact points not having enough grease at the metal to metal contact points, or the wrong type of grease that isn't staying where it needs to. So a white lithium grease isn't as good on pivots as a thicker grease like Phil Woods. The ABC bushings should be fine unless they are getting crud in them past the o-rings.

    You mentioned that the swing link was already replaced on warranty, what was the issue there?
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  35. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by trevorwg View Post
    I've been riding my instinct for 2 months now, and love the ride, but I'm a little annoyed to say that this is the noisiest bike I've ever owned.

    I think it developed its first pivot creak 10km into my first ride on it, and after the first week sounded as bad as my Reign X got after three years without service.

    I've since had the swing link changed out under warranty, all the pivots striped, cleaned, and carefully re-assembled twice, the plastic crown race changed to metal, and I'm on a loaner wheelset while mine is getting warrantied, but the creaking comes back first ride after every trip to the shop.

    The last time, after cleaning, carefully torquing and locktiting the pivot bolts it lasted all of 35km of trail riding before the creak came back - a new record, but painfully short.

    This is annoying me because in my experience, creaking means somethings about to fail.

    Does anybody else have this same complaint? Is dust getting into the ABC pivots? Is this a warranty issue? Or am I just too heavy for this pivot design?

    I'm about 215lb without gear, and I try to ride hard, but that isn't a rediculous weight for someone that will fit an XL frame.

    Trevor
    You know, I totally forgot to mention that, but the bike I demo'd creaked BAD. I was hoping it was a fluke and just a neglected demo bike, but now, that is a point of concern. Curious if there are more people having this issue with the Instinct?
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  36. #86
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    I guess it's the same problem that plagued the early Element 29ers: dry axles. I lubed them and the creaking was gone. Seeing as the Instinct uses the same basic layout as the Element, I would guess to lube the pivot axles (not the bushings).

    @Rockyuphill: What setting do you prefer on the ride-9? I'm currently torn between the (non-existing) Titus El Guapo 29er, the Specialized enduro 29 comp and the Rocky Mountain Instinct. Since I already have an Element, I'm biased towards the Instinct, but the Enduro seems a great platform too and has more travel. But comparing geometry numbers, the Instinct is specced with the same wheelbase as the Enduro eventhoug the Enduro has 430mm chainstays vs 452mm of the Instinct. So I guess this is all in the headangle.

  37. #87
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    So far I've stuck with the as shipped neutral setting as I have been riding in a more XC type trail. If I can avoid catching any more cold viruses and actually get back to riding and get it out on a wider variety of trails I will try some other Ride9 configurations.

    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    I guess it's the same problem that plagued the early Element 29ers: dry axles. I lubed them and the creaking was gone. Seeing as the Instinct uses the same basic layout as the Element, I would guess to lube the pivot axles (not the bushings).

    @Rockyuphill: What setting do you prefer on the ride-9? I'm currently torn between the (non-existing) Titus El Guapo 29er, the Specialized enduro 29 comp and the Rocky Mountain Instinct. Since I already have an Element, I'm biased towards the Instinct, but the Enduro seems a great platform too and has more travel. But comparing geometry numbers, the Instinct is specced with the same wheelbase as the Enduro eventhoug the Enduro has 430mm chainstays vs 452mm of the Instinct. So I guess this is all in the headangle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockyuphill View Post
    Creaking is usually more about contact points not having enough grease at the metal to metal contact points, or the wrong type of grease that isn't staying where it needs to. So a white lithium grease isn't as good on pivots as a thicker grease like Phil Woods. The ABC bushings should be fine unless they are getting crud in them past the o-rings.

    You mentioned that the swing link was already replaced on warranty, what was the issue there?
    I haven't had the linkage apart myself yet, so I don't know what's getting past the o-rings. If I take it apart I'll look for any metal-metal contact.

    The pivot between the top tube and the swing link had an alignment issue, so it wouldn't turn freely. With the shock removed it took about 15 lb of force at the wheel to cycle the suspension. With the new link it takes less than a pound.

    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    I guess it's the same problem that plagued the early Element 29ers: dry axles. I lubed them and the creaking was gone. Seeing as the Instinct uses the same basic layout as the Element, I would guess to lube the pivot axles (not the bushings).
    So you're saying to add grease between the pivot bolts and anything they touch that's metal right? That kind of makes sense, and agrees with what rockyuphill said. I'll give that a shot and report back.

    Quote Originally Posted by zonoskar View Post
    @Rockyuphill: What setting do you prefer on the ride-9? I'm currently torn between the (non-existing) Titus El Guapo 29er, the Specialized enduro 29 comp and the Rocky Mountain Instinct. Since I already have an Element, I'm biased towards the Instinct, but the Enduro seems a great platform too and has more travel. But comparing geometry numbers, the Instinct is specced with the same wheelbase as the Enduro eventhoug the Enduro has 430mm chainstays vs 452mm of the Instinct. So I guess this is all in the headangle.
    This wasn't directed at me, but I've been riding mostly in setting 9:
    (heavy rider, steep angles). I was clipping pedals a lot in the neutral position, and I find the bike is more than slack enough for XC in the steep position. I've been meaning to try the steepest head angle position too but haven't gotten around to it yet.

    2013 Instinct FAQs-9.jpg

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    I think I figured out the creaking. The pivot bolt down by the bottom bracket was a little bit loose. I've had one quiet ride since tightening it, and I put locktite on, so hopefully this is the end of the noise.

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    I threw a fox 34 140 on the Instinct... fun++.

  41. #91
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    The not-at-all-well-kept-secret carbon Instinct 29 MSL was covered in the Bike magazine

    Rocky Mountain Launches Carbon Instinct MSl 29er

    And there will be a frame only option for the 999 MSL

    And an intro video

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 2013 Instinct FAQs-instinct-999-msl.jpg  

    Last edited by rockyuphill; 07-01-2013 at 09:01 AM.
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    Wow that bc edition could be a winner.

  43. #93
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    I've been drooling over that eye candy all day!

    So, did they change the geometry for 2014? because the Ride9 geo #s look different from the 2013 data..I thought it was the same bike other than the carbon build obviously.
    First Look: Rocky Mountain Instinct MSL ? 130mm Travel Carbon 29er Revealed | Mountain Bike Review
    Hey, is that a Huffy? That's a nice-lookin' bike, boy!

  44. #94
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    That screen shot of the Ride 9 page in the Instinct preview are the Altitude as those are the 650B Altitude numbers.

    There'd be no real reason to tweak the geo numbers with the Ride 9 it can be tweaked just about any direction.
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    Ahhh, Ok, that makes sense.
    Hey, is that a Huffy? That's a nice-lookin' bike, boy!

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    Anybody have an idea of the specs or reviews on the dt swiss m1.6 wheels?

    I can't find any info anywhere.

  47. #97
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    My DT Swiss M1.6 wheels weighed 2010gms and the hubs are about equal to a DT Swiss 350. They have the star ratchet system. I think all of DT's alloy rims are a bit softer than Mavic rims.
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

  48. #98
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    Hmm - so wheelset might be soft as well as relatively heavy and relatively narrow.

    So far that's been my biggest complaint with my 2013 970 - considering a wheelset upgrade

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    Hmm - another question about the m1.6 - was that 2050 g without brake rotors and cassette, or weight naked?

    If that includes rotors and cassettes, then the wheels aren't as heavy as I thought.

    I have been giving some thought to upgrading to a wider rim and at 2050 either the Stan's flow ex or arch would be lighter than the m1.6.

  50. #100
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    Bare wheels with hubs, spokes, rims and rim strips only. I replaced mine with Enve carbon wheels at 1415gms. Boy did that make a difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jr1978 View Post
    Hmm - another question about the m1.6 - was that 2050 g without brake rotors and cassette, or weight naked?

    If that includes rotors and cassettes, then the wheels aren't as heavy as I thought.

    I have been giving some thought to upgrading to a wider rim and at 2050 either the Stan's flow ex or arch would be lighter than the m1.6.
    I'm a member of NSMBA and IMBA Canada

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