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  1. #51
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    Very nice! I wonder why Syncros parts are on the Ritchey frames. Especially the carbon fork. Ritchey has their own carbon for now.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Bob
    Very nice! I wonder why Syncros parts are on the Ritchey frames. Especially the carbon fork. Ritchey has their own carbon for now.
    I believe that they want to keep the Syncros brand as the premier MTB line of parts and Ritchey as road or other. What I was told, anyway. I have been using a carbon seat post, alu bar and alu stem from Syncros on a new SS ride and it has been solid stuff so far.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemmer
    Are some of you seriously questioning whether bike is fillet brazed or not.

    Lets see...... a one off Ritchey frame displayed at NAHBS...

    Hmm.. Yea, that just might be a one off TIGed frame disguised to look fillet brazed by one of the premier fillet brazers in the world to display at NAHBS.....

    Sorry, for being a jerk and trying to steer a little towards the obvious . Hopefully you will research TR a little before seriously considering one of his frames (that he has made himself). I will now leave your forum.....

    Respectfully,
    T

    I doubt that you are all that sorry.
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  4. #54
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    Both the 29er and the SwissCross are delightful bikes. I normally prefer standard headsets, but these machines are just too good-looking to nag about that

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by moschika
    in a recent interview with Tom, he said he did all the fillet brazing for all his bikes. so if this is FB'd then, no reason to think otherwise.

    "Furthermore, over the last 38 years, all the fillet-brazed (Ritchey) bikes that were ever built, were 100% done by me."
    http://www.xo-1.org/2011/01/tom-ritc...own-words.html
    Great interview!

  6. #56
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    revive the good times... golden age mtb...

    Tom Ritchey is my idol... I guess a great launch from Scott and Ritchey's... a special serie for example...

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guitar Ted
    I didn't say there wasn't a difference, I said it doesn't matter as much to performance as people think. Basically, my rant is about the name "NAHBS" and how Asian made bikes are really no less "hand made" than the NAHBS examples are.

    I've seen a lot of crappy "custom" bikes, and a lot of crappy production bikes, and vice versa.

    That's all I'm going to say here about it. I would encourage you to read through the comments on my blog for a better understanding of the discussion. It doesn't merit my re-telling it all here.
    I can't sign into your website.

    Actually you did say there wasn't a difference. Here is a quote from your post:

    "You know, bicycles are built by highly skilled laborers in Asia. Handbuilt indeed! While they may not sip espresso from an Italian cup, or sport a "soul patch", I really do not see any differences in what they do and what the "Hand built" guys are doing at NAHBS. You might say that the "art" of the bicycle is elevated to a higher degree. Okay, I'll give you that much, but the "art" doesn't make it ride any better.* What is more, the Asian builders have repeatability down pat. Try that with your fancy-pants bamboo tall-bike."
    Quite frankly I find those comments snotty and condescending. I understand your paycheck (and your 29er website) are dependent on large companies that mass produce bicycles, but show some more respect for the small, independent CUSTOM builders out there. They are more than just welders.

    I also read through your comments where you keep telling people they are missing your point. IMO they are getting your point as you wrote it. My advice is to re-read your post and look at the actual words you typed. Just because a person says something is a rant doesn't give them immunity from the consequences.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orkje
    I normally prefer standard headsets, but these machines are just too good-looking to nag about that

    +1 regarding the headsets. Actually, if these are as expensive as I fear they'll be, that heaset might be the one thing that keeps me from buying one. I understand that NAHBS is all about showcasing trends (and they do showcase TR's fillet welds nicely), but I want conventional, tried & true on my bike, please - especially one that I'd hope to own for a long time.
    Last edited by iamkeith; 02-26-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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  9. #59
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    Ha ha, espresso, soul patch, bamboo tall bike. Thats good stuff.

    Does anyone else appreciate the irony of these comments being taken as snobby?

  10. #60
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    nice

    Nice to see the Ritchey name on a down tube again. A lot of fond memeries after seeing those pics. Talk about inspiring someone to want to ride or open thier wallet. I'd have to have one of these if it were made with a traditional headset.

    Now it Chris Chance would only start welding up 29er's. That would be bless.

  11. #61
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    guitar ted, it's great that you got that discussion going, but i'd like to gently disagree with some of your points.

    1. the name 'hand-made' => focussing on this semantics issue misses the point. I've been working for 20 years in the intersection of product technology and marketing, and even a stubborn guy like me realizes that if a name of a product or service accurately conveys the intended idea, then it is a successful name. Last week I saw an ad for a nearby 'hand-made arts and crafts show'. You and I both know what to expect at a show like that. Is a mass-produced wall clock (from Asia or from South Carolina), with painted decoration, also made 'by hands'? Typically, Yes. But anyone over the age of 10 understands what 'hand-made' means in that context. Check out a similar discussion on 'hand made' Ferrari's here. A car with a hand-welded frame, hand-fitted body, etc, definitely qualifies as hand-made. In this day and age, some people are willing to pay extra for that. In some cases, 'hand made' competes with robot-welded counterparts; in other cases 'hand made' competes with mass produced items in which hands at the factory may be involved. In either case, however, most customers understand the difference, and do not find the term 'hand made' to be misleading.

    2. the performance advantage => you discuss how mass-produced bikes perform comparably to the high priced 'hand made' frames. everyone agrees with that. i have friends who go to NAHBS...none of them think of it as 'wow, going to see the world's highest performance incarnation of DW link rear suspension'. The NAHBS fans see it as an exercise in aesthetics, which can have side benefits in performance (especially years ago, before carbon fiber became the stiffness/lightness/compliance benchmark), but 'performance' is not the main goal per se and I think you've created a straw-man argument there.

    If you look at other industries, and similar types of shows, you'd almost expect them to call it the North American Artisanal Bikes show. Glad they didn't, since that sounds even more like latte-quaffing pretentiousness. 'Hand Made' is a better term here, since a) the intended meaning is well understood by everyone b) it keeps the focus on the building part of it. Bike frames are not a pure exercise in art. Trust me, my family works in the fine arts business. Part of the attraction of bikes to a non-snob like me is that they are very much an example of applied art ... form meets function. Exquisite lugs on a frame, a nicely machined part...the aesthetics are undeniable, at least to us bike geeks, but let's not get pretentious and start treating it as pure art.
    Originally posted by bucksaw87
    I still fail to see how mustaches, fixies, and PBR are ironic.

  12. #62
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    Hope the new frames goes into production. It was my dream bike in the 90's but I couldn't afford it then. Still struggling now a days but a little bit more earnings to be able to swing on a nice Ritchey frames to the collection.

  13. #63
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    From cyclingnews.com:

    Also coming in August is a new 29" steel hardtail called - what else - the P-29er. Standard features include Ritchey Logic tubing, Paragon sliding dropouts for singlespeed or geared use, a curved down tube for extra fork crown clearance, and the same clever head tube design as on the Swiss Cross. The P-29er is also planned for an August release and suggested retail price is US$999 for the frame only. Claimed projected frame weight is 2,450g (5.4lb).

    And if you have a preference for either of the two paint schemes pictured here, feel free to let Ritchey know - the company is still deciding between the retro-inspired fade and the more modern-looking block design.

    Just to clear any misconceptions, it should also be said that Tom Ritchey the man has never stopped making frames - it's just that since his departure from the mainstream bike market, he's only built frames for close friends and family. Unfortunately, these new frames still won't be built by Tom himself nor will they be fillet brazed as pictured here. Production frames will be TIG welded in Taiwan but even so, we still don't expect that to widely detract from their appeal.

  14. #64
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    The fact that they are made overseas and won't be fillet brazed are deal killers for me.

    It's kind of a crappy deal bringing a hand built gorgeous fillet brazed frame to the NAHBS show to pitch your parts and a production, Asian built, tig welded frame.

    That's exactly what I was worried about. I guessed right.

    No doubt it'll be a good frame, but it's lost almost all of it's appeal right there. I guess not much is different. Same thing the Breezer line did the last year or two.
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  15. #65
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    bummer

    I'm still glad to see the Ritchey name on a frame. However I would be more interested if it were hand brazed here in the states.

    I'll continue saving my pennies for an IF. (unless they keep raising prices).

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Avenger
    Unfortunately, these new frames still won't be built by Tom himself nor will they be fillet brazed as pictured here. Production frames will be TIG welded in Taiwan but even so, we still don't expect that to widely detract from their appeal.
    COMPLETELY kills it for me. I mean it'll probably have great tubing, and the simple, curved downtube and paragon sliders are nice design details, but you can get any number of equally-nice frames, lovingly hand-made in the U.S.A.(like the true Ritchey frames), for around the same price. If all you want is a bike that reminds you of the golden years of Ritchey, you could paint it red, white and blue, put a decal on it ,and stock it with Ritchey components. Would that be any less honest than a Taiwanese factory doing the same thing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Avenger
    And if you have a preference for either of the two paint schemes pictured here, feel free to let Ritchey know - the company is still deciding between the retro-inspired fade and the more modern-looking block design.
    If the entire marketing strategy is to appeal to the sentimentality of older bike geeks, then the answer seems pretty obvious. The retro fade paint job is what most people would actually be buying.

    Sorry to be negative. This thread just really got my hopes up, and then completely dashed them - all in a half day's time. I'm sure there's a market for them though. Just look at all the front-engine, liquid cooled VW beetles and silly looking, plastic Mustangs and Camaros hitting the highways these days.
    We still hang bike thieves in Wyoming [Pedal House]

  17. #67
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    There's something about the looks of a steel hardtail that always makes me pause. Don't know, maybe it's they just look "right," or it's because it what was around when I first got into MTB'ing.

    Too bad the P-29 won't have the hands of the master on it, however, if it's a handmade steel frame that one wants, then I'm sure Chris DeKerf would weld one up for ya'.

  18. #68
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    I don't care where or how it's made.

    It's the design, geometry, and tubing choice that determine how a bike rides.

    Not how and where the tubes are joined.

    If he designed it.....I'd rock it. No matter where it was made. I've used his components for years with good success. Don't see a reason to turn my nose up at this frame.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwb
    I don't care where or how it's made.

    It's the design, geometry, and tubing choice that determine how a bike rides.

    Not how and where the tubes are joined.

    If he designed it.....I'd rock it. No matter where it was made. I've used his components for years with good success. Don't see a reason to turn my nose up at this frame.
    Nothing wrong with being tig welded in Taiwan; many highly regard frames are. But with a MSRP of $995 it is significantly more expensive (Sir9= $850, MCR= $800, Jones= $750, Singular Swift frameset $590).

  20. #70
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    I was hell bent on ownership YESTERDAY.
    Ill stick to my dragon frames with their Taiwanese tig welded 853 Reynolds tubing.
    The ritchey name slapped on a even a nice looking bike means nothing if he didn't braze it.
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  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by CB2
    Nothing wrong with being tig welded in Taiwan; many highly regard frames are. But with a MSRP of $995 it is significantly more expensive (Sir9= $850, MCR= $800, Jones= $750, Singular Swift frameset $590).
    I understand that.

    Doesn't change the fact that where it's TIG'ed has no determination on how it rides. It's either worth the money or it's not. Up to the buyer to decide.

    If I'm willing to spend $850 on a Niner I'd pay a little more for a Ritchey given his history and track record for designing killer bikes.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsewhere
    Ill stick to my dragon frames with their Taiwanese tig welded 853 Reynolds tubing.
    I'm running an 853 Dragon myself and absolutely love it!


    Quote Originally Posted by elsewhere
    The ritchey name slapped on a even a nice looking bike means nothing if he didn't braze it.
    So ride quality doesn't mean a thing then?

    People need to remember it doesn't matter how well you can braze if the tubes and geometry you select suck. His bikes were successful because of the design. Not how pretty his brazing was.

  23. #73
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    That's a good point, mwb. If they're using the same frame material, and the same designs, why does it matter who wields it? Perhaps the metal craftsmanship will be reflected in the high price, who knows?
    ride

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mwb
    I'm running an 853 Dragon myself and absolutely love it!

    So ride quality doesn't mean a thing then?

    People need to remember it doesn't matter how well you can braze if the tubes and geometry you select suck. His bikes were successful because of the design. Not how pretty his brazing was.
    I'm sure the Taiwanese tig masters can put the bike together to ride nicely based on the ritchey design. I guess what I was trying to say is the thought of having a sweet geo bike assembled by Mr. Ritchey himself produced here in the states would have been my main drive to purchase.
    It would surprise me if a decent welder/ frame builder here in the US couldn't mimic the geometry of the ritchey design in ti.
    That would rate higher in my book than the frame in question.
    Ritchey design touched by Ritchey is a Ritchey.
    Other than that its just another well designed bike assembled by a mystery man overseas.
    Am I justified?
    "my cat's breath smells like catfood."
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by elsewhere
    Ritchey design touched by Ritchey is a Ritchey.
    Other than that its just another well designed bike assembled by a mystery man overseas.
    Am I justified?
    Of course you're justified. Each person draws the line where they see it.

    I was just trying to find out where you draw the line since you said it means "notrhing" if he didn't braze it himself.

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