Warning, everyone poops, some more then others. This topic is about the latter. If your against pooping, just skip this topic. Some of the nasty details are listed in here.
I'm a 25 year old Cat 2 roadie and an Endurance mountain biker. Last year, I finished 6th in the NUE SS category and planned on improving this year. That is until about 3-4 weeks ago. When it all started, about 30-40 minutes into a ride, I would have to pull over and find a place to poop. After an hour later, I would have to stop again. Quickly it went down hill from there. About 2-3 weeks ago I had what I thought was a bad stomach bug. I started having to run to the bathroom almost every hour with loose stool, and eventually blood was present. My mother has Crohn's Disease so I knew some of the warning signs to look out for.
I called up my Doc ASAP to get into a gastrointeroligist. I got in later that week where he signed me up for a colonoscopy. After a horrible day of broth and liquids followed by a life supply of stool softeners, I went in for the colonoscopy which was painless (completely out), the doc told me he saw signs of Colitis (inflammation of the intestines). While he was in there, he did a biopsy which he would have results of later in the week. He gave me some sample drugs which he said would take 2 weeks to kick in completely. A little over a week later, I'm still going to the bathroom way too much and loosing blood with every movement.
Well, yesterday the biopsy came back. Its crohns' disease. Its a life long auto immune disease with no known causes or cures. There are several therapies that work to eliminate symptoms, but its not like that time you sleeped with the wrong person and had to get some penicillin.
So thats where I'm at. I'm know that sometimes, the first flare up is the worse and I just need to get past that. I'm just frustrated. I went for one of my first rides last Friday. It was relatively short and I felt okay. I then rode on Monday, where the legs that I thought were just stiff were tired as all hell. On the ride I normally am the fastest person by far on, I started getting gapped within about 6-7 miles into the ride although the speed wasn't fast. By about 15 miles into the ride, my legs felt like mile 90 of Shanendoah MT 100. Its frusterating how fast I fell.
Anyone else here have Crohn's or U.C.? How have you dealt with it?
First off, I am not a doctor but I do a lot of research in the medical literature etc. because of my own medical condition (CAD).
Second, I do not have Crohn's disease or ulcerative colitis, nor do I know much about them.
So maybe you should disregard what I have to say - I'll leave that up to you. I do know that many, including myself, have conditions for which there is not much hope for a cure, only mediating medications which usually come with a price in dollars and side-effects. Been There, Done That! In many of those cases we grasp at straws and get to the point of being willing to try almost anything.
A book I recently read on an entirely different subject but IMO much more far reaching than suggested by the title, there were several mentions of Crohn's & UC. The book was written by a practicing cardiologist in WI who has observed a lot in his practice, including things that work and those that don't as well as simple things that impact a much wider field than anticipated.
I will ask a question then provide a quote from the book where UC & C are mentioned then leave it up to you as it is your body and condition.
Question - Do you have celiac disease, or have you ever been tested positive for celiac antibody markers? If you have celiac or are non-symptomatic but test positive for celiac antibody markers, there may be a link for Crohns/UC that you might want to have a doctor pursue.
Quotes from the book.
"The disease itself has increased in frequency, fourfold over the past fifty years, doubling in just the past twenty years. To make matters worse, the increase in celiac disease has been paralleled by an increase in type 1 diabetes, autoimmune diseases such as multiple sclerosis and Crohn’s disease, and allergies."
"Autoimmune diseases—Diseases associated with immune attacks against various organs, known as autoimmune diseases, are more common in people with celiac. People with celiac disease are more likely to develop rheumatoid arthritis, Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, connective tissue diseases such as lupus, asthma, inflammatory bowel diseases such as ulcerative colitis and Crohn’s disease, as well as other inflammatory and immune disorders. Rheumatoid arthritis, a painful, disfiguring joint arthritis treated with anti-inflammatory agents, has been shown to improve, and occasionally remit entirely, with gluten removal. The risk for autoimmune inflammatory bowel disease, ulcerative colitis, and Crohn’s disease is especially high; incidence is sixty-eight-fold compared to nonceliacs."
"I’ve seen dramatic turnarounds in health, such as the thirty-eight-year-old woman with ulcerative colitis facing colon removal who was cured with wheat elimination—colon intact. Or the twenty-six-year-old man, incapacitated and barely able to walk because of joint pain, who experienced complete relief and walked and ran freely again after taking wheat off the menu."
"Let me tell you about Wendy. For more than ten years, Wendy struggled unsuccessfully with ulcerative colitis. A thirty-six-year-old grade school teacher and mother of three, she lived with constant cramping, diarrhea, and frequent bleeding, necessitating occasional blood transfusions. She endured several colo-noscopies and required the use of three prescription medications to manage her disease, including the highly toxic methotrexate, a drug also used in cancer treatment and medical abortions. I met Wendy for an unrelated minor complaint of heart palpitations that proved to be benign, requiring no specific treatment. However, she told me that, because her ulcerative colitis was failing to respond to medications, her gastroenterologist advised colon removal with creation of an ileostomy. This is an artificial orifice for the small intestine (ileum) at the abdominal surface, the sort to which you affix a bag to catch the continually emptying stool. After hearing Wendy’s medical history, I urged her to try wheat elimination. “I really don’t know if it’s going to work,” I told her, “but since you’re facing colon removal and ileostomy, I think you should give it a try.” “But why?” she asked. “I’ve already been tested for celiac and my doctor said I don’t have it.” “Yes, I know. But you’ve got nothing to lose. Try it for four weeks. You’ll know if you’re responding.” Wendy was skeptical but agreed to try. She returned to my office three months later, no ileostomy bag in sight. “What happened?” I asked. “Well, first I lost thirty-eight pounds.” She ran her hand over her abdomen to show me. “And my ulcerative colitis is nearly gone. No more cramps or diarrhea. I’m off everything except my Asacol.” (Asacol is a derivative of aspirin often used to treat ulcerative colitis.) “I really feel great.” In the year since, Wendy has meticulously avoided wheat and gluten and has also eliminated the Asacol, with no return of symptoms. Cured."
The book "Wheat Belly"
My suggestion - Either start by reading the book, or have your doctor test for celiac antibody markers. It may help or it may not. But in fact you can actually try fixing it on your own by removing gluten from your diet for four weeks and if it doesn't help you can move on to some other approach.
Actually I have not been tested for gluten. I've never had a problem before, but who knows. I'm going back to the doc this Tuesday so I'll ask him to test for it.
There are many instances of people who show no symptoms of sensitivity to gluten but indeed have the antibodies present in their blood.
From the book:
"The broken-down intestinal lining allows various components of wheat to gain entry to places they don’t belong, such as the bloodstream, a phenomenon that is used to diagnose the condition: Antibodies against wheat gliadin, one of the components of gluten, can be found in the blood. It also causes the body to generate antibodies against components of the disrupted intestinal lining itself, such as transglutaminase and endomysium, two proteins of intestinal muscle that also provide the basis for the two other antibody tests for diagnosis of celiac, transglutaminase and endomysium antibodies. Otherwise “friendly” bacteria that normally inhabit the intestinal tract are also permitted to send their products into the bloodstream, initiating another range of abnormal inflammatory and immune responses."
"Interestingly, 53 percent of children at the hospital who were diagnosed with antibody testing yet displayed no symptoms of celiac nonetheless reported feeling better with gluten elimination."
"Three groups of antibody blood tests are now widely available to diagnose celiac disease, or at least strongly suggest that an immune response against gluten has been triggered.
Antigliadin antibodies. The short-lived IgA antibody and the longer-lived IgG antigliadin antibodies are often used to screen people for celiac. While widely available, they are less likely to make the diagnosis in all people with the disease, failing to diagnose approximately 20 to 50 percent of true celiac sufferers.14
Transglutaminase antibody. Gluten damage to the intestinal lining uncovers muscle proteins that trigger antibody formation. Transglutamin-ase is one such protein. The antibody against this protein can be measured in the bloodstream and used to gauge the ongoing autoimmune response. Compared to intestinal biopsy, the transglutaminase antibody test identifies approximately 86 to 89 percent of celiac cases.15,16
Endomysium antibody. Like the transglutaminase antibody test, the endomysium antibody identifies another intestinal tissue protein that triggers an antibody response. Introduced in the mid-nineties, this test is emerging as the most accurate antibody test, identifying more than 90 percent of celiac cases."
"Forty percent of the population have one of the HLA markers and/or antibody markers that predispose them to celiac, yet express no symptoms or other evidence of an immune system gone awry. However, this latter group has been shown to experience better health when wheat gluten is eliminated.20 It means that a very substantial portion of the population is potentially sensitive to wheat gluten."
Sorry if I'm saying too much but I know what it did for me though not re Crohn's.
Read: Wheat Belly | Bleiler Fitness
I know your question wasnt about weight loss but it he mentions increased level of energy and greater athletic performance as by products.
I have UC,diagnosed in '94, short course of mesalimine and symptom free for 6+yrs.2002-2004 mild flare ups. No ins=no treatments eventually stopped after a very stressful time passed. 2010 Tibal plateau fracture,screws,plates,2 surgeries,crutches for 19 weeks,again very stressful not knowing if you'll recover fully,didn't only have 100* of flexion out of a normal 140*. started having flares about a month after injury when reality was setting in.
So for me it seems that stress is a trigger. 94-divorce, 2002 a bunch of bad sh!t,2010 serious injury. I'm currently taking Asocol 3x daily and don't like the idea that could be long term.
I had not heard of the possible gluten ties. Very interesting info. Thank you ! I'll be looking into this further.
OP: It sucks when the doc says" we really don't know what or why,but,we can TRY this"
I found with my leg that Dr's have very narrow vision.It's called Insurance company's. I had to seek out "non-tradional" treatments, combined with tradional methods to do what was best for MY situation.
Only you know your body.I started a log with food,exersise,stressers,and anything that went into my body, as well as when and how it came out.
The Asocol and stress reduction pretty much came at the same time. So maybe it's time to discontinue the Asocol and try gluten free to see what happens.
This is something that is cronic, but managable also.Don't let it get you down,just aproach it as any other training obstacle. Make adjustments to find what works best for YOUR situation.
As a PA student who is currently learning about a lot of these things/seeing them, I have to say that I am very sorry to hear about your diagnosis. Having said that, my understanding is that apart from the medications that aim to induce and prolong remission of the disease, there is a ton of individual variability in its course for every person and thus treatment varies along with that. Some people can feel much better with diet modification etc as well. It's definitely not the best thing to have to deal with but it could always be worse right? I recall reading a few years ago about a triathlete (wish I could remember his name) who was living with Crohns and was still very competitive on the professional level which is very inspiring. It seems like it just takes time to find out what works best for yourself with medications, diet etc, and then to make the best of what you've got. Best of luck to you!
I have suffered from UC for 7 years. I took several different medications to reduce inflammation and flare ups. Last year things got really bad and by late summer I had to have an emergency surgery to remove most of my colon. It took many months but I finally got better and started to ride regularly again. I was starting to feel really good early this year when the small remaining portion of colon left behind that had never really healed began to flare up. Since I am not attached (I have an ileostomy) it doesn't affect my ability to eat. However strenuous exercise cause increased bleeding which has now relegated me to casual rides on mostly flat and boring terrain. So I'm seeing my surgeon on Wednesday to discuss going back in and finishing the job. Then I can get back to living and riding!
UC and Crohns sucks
That sucks man. Those symptoms are terrible. Look into the gluten connection, especially if you drink beer. Good luck.
UC here. I got diagnosed with it this year and it sucks! It's somewhat under control with meds, but it does still bother me from time to time. Everything was fine until I took an antibiotic for an infection. From there things when downhill and I got UC somehow...sucks!
Have you been tested for C-Diff? Antibiotics can kill your good bacteria and allow this awful bacteria to take over. Symptoms would be almost the same as UC.
Originally Posted by fripple
C-Diff was the final blow in my battle with UC.
Clostridium difficile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yea I was tested for it and it was negative. I believe they did a biopsy whenever I had a colonoscopy done.
I appreciate everyone's posts here. I have a good friend who is dealing with UC and it really seems to act up during periods of strenuous exercise. She is currently taking Asocol, and Knoob, I think you are right about the stress having an effect on driving the flare ups, I am curious how things have been going since you posted this, and if you tried the Gluten free diet for awhile, and if that had an effect. She does not want to be on meds for the rest of her life and does not want the potential side effects of them.
Originally Posted by knoob
If anyone else has experienced success through alternative means, I would be glad to hear about them.
I have Crohn's so thought I'd reply. To start on a positive note: I take no drugs on a regular basis for my condition, have zero daily regular diet restrictions, and have no regular abdominal pain. I do however look in the bowl before I flush every time...
Before I describe my experience I'd like to say after 18 years living with the my condition I believe Crohn's and IBS means a doctor doesn't know what in the world is going on with you.
I'm 36 and had my first episode when I was 18. I'm sorry to tell you but your pre-condition fitness is unlikely to ever come back; at minimum it will forever be different. Before my first episode I was 185 lbs with a 28 inch waist and could do one arm pullups. Within 6 months, having survived my second episode I weighed in at 155 lbs and after losing 30 lbs of muscle I was very changed. For me it was a 4 year ordeal to find balance to live with my condition but I was young and didn't understand nutrition well.
My episodes are a little different from you: I've had 3 major episodes in life and 2 other ER visits. Typically, I overexert myself while getting dehydrated, then eat something heavy or too much and drink too much liquid. I then get a stomach ache and begin vomiting followed by dry heaving every 30-60 minutes until I'm truly dehydrated and go to the ER for fluids. Once at the ER my lower intestine has constricted and I have to do a week long hospital stay. I've seen my constriction on 4 lower GI and had a CT scan done with contrast. I've had 2 or 3 colonoscopies (many more were requested by docs), an endoscopy, and blood tests. The blood test found the Crohn's ?markers or antibodies? (sorry a doc told me this but I didn't care) and the colonoscopies and endoscopies have never confirmed anything.
I believe the biggest thing you need is to find what your trigger is and what balance you can find. One of the greatest things I did for my condition was to fast for a week. Not true fasting I drank about 4 full sugar Gatorades a day but nothing else but water. Anytime I feel off I make sure my calcium levels are up as it aids digestion.
Staying out of the hospital: For me today; (well I have a petella injury right now but prethat) I still go out and push it biking, rock climbing, and mountaineering. However, if I have a bad day out and feel overexerted and dehydrated I simplely start fasting and hit the Gatorade slow until I'm peeing healthy. If I feel quezy I'll hit Pepcid AC to settle my help stomach. If I'm still unsure I go on a liquid diet of pudding, popsickles, yogurt, and jello until I feel ship shape and then ease my body back in with things like chicken and rice.
I second the be wary of antibotics. I was given a lot of Cipro and I don't think it helps.
I had good luck with Asacol drug and used it for about 6 months. If I feel like I've had a flare up I will take it for a few weeks. I've also taken Entocort EC which is much more expensive than Asacol and I saw no difference.
Last, don't be afraid to tell your doc no. Ever doc who sees my file wants to do lots of test and put me on meds. But my response is always the same these days. "What is this test going to tell us about me living my life?" The answer is VERY often "Nothing". This is more so advice for once you settle into what your condition will mean to you.
To date I've traveled around the world in to rural remote wilderness settings, I've completed the John Muir Trail (210 miles in 18 days), trekked in the Himalayas, rock climb, bike, ski,... but my condition is always with me.
Crohn's & Humira
I was diagnosed with Crohns back in 2004. Initially the flare blocked the ileocecal valve and I had a resection of that area back then. I was subsequently on a immune system suppressant, 6 mercaptopurine which minimized symptoms for years. I did have a flare up about a year ago that sapped my energy for about a month. I went to see a new doctor who specializes in those diseases. I am fortunate to live and work in a large academic center and my doc was aware of a series of new biologicals becoming available for Crohns treatment. I started on one of these, Humira, which includes a self administered pen shot every two weeks. You may see it advertised on TV for both crohns and arthritis. I have had essentially zero symptoms since starting this and am faster and lifting more weight than ever in my life (possibly excepting my military experience in my 20's), and I'm 54 now. At my last check-up my doc was quite optimistic about future treatments for Crohns as there are a number of new ones going through clinical trials and soon to hit the market.
I would suggest searching out a specialist who is current on the disease, as you can see from previous posts, not all are, and who can manage your case personally since many people have individual responses.
Best of Luck!
I have UC. Well, not really any more. Try cutting out gluten all together. Also, when I would flare up I would eat only raw foods. This would get my intestines back on track. I take no meds and keep my diet free of gluten. Go raw for a while and see how you react. Also eat loads of sunflower seads and spinach. I'm 33 and was diagnosed at 20. I've had some serious flares and some mild ones. The meds gave me terrible side effects. After changing my diet I got my life back. Good luck.
My wife and daughter both have celiac disease. I have IBS. I decided to go gluten free with them. My symptoms are much better and I won't go back to eating gluten. The wheat belly doctor has taken quite a bit of heat over not having research to back his claims. That said there is something to what he says.
I have UC. If I don't take meds whenever I get a cold or flu it flares up. I don't seem to have flares otherwise. Anyone here like that?
What meds are you taking? They gave me apriso. I'm thinking I need to go back in because it was working great, but within the last month I've been having bad flare ups. Sucks!
Although I missed out on many of the posts since my original involvement with this thread, I'm glad others are out there and it seams like others are willing to at least give support.
Since my first post, I have had my ups and downs. Soon after being diagnosed, I was put on a couple traditional medicines only to have pretty bad reactions to them. I was then put on a Biologic (humeria) with some success. I started to get my life back. Normal BMs again. I started riding more, and my strength came back. Towards the end of April, 2 buddies and I went to Moab and Fruita for a week of amazing MTB with about 4 hours each day of riding. Overall my health was good. My long term outlook started looking better, so I started to sign up for some big races, including Lumberjack 100, Mohecian, Pisgah 111K and some road races.
However, shortly after, around memorial day, I started going back into a flare. I started to spike a fever, my original symptoms started coming back (blood lose, frequent BMs, weight change). I eventually found myself in the ER and emitted to the hospital shortly after where I stayed for 10 days. In that time, I dropped 15 lbs (I entered at 150). Although I was out in time for some of the races I signed up for, there was no way I was going to be able to finish a lap of some of my local trails no less Lumberjack 100 or the like. When I left, everything seemed like a chore. A couple weeks later I got back on the bike. I started slowly, but my strength did come back. I had one hiccup a couple weeks after getting out, but my doc attributed it to steeping off some of the meds which I was put on during the hospital stay too quickly, so with a quick fix, I have pretty much been on the up and up.
I know I wasn't at the level that I was at, but the compeditiveness/racer bug came itching back. As I started to get faster, I wanted to race, so I emailed my local USA Cycling road official, asking if I could downgrade back to 3's. He completely understood and was quick to do so. My first Cat 3 race, I was actually kind of aggressive for my strength levels, and although I had some exciting moves (was in one break early on, and did a pretty insane solo attack with 3 to go) I finished dead last. The next race, I made it in the break, and although I hung on for dear life and felt shot at the end, finished forth. Towards the end of the season, I really started coming back. My last crit of the year, I probably attacked 10 different times. On the 2nd to last lap, I made a pretty ballsy solo move, and held off most of the field minus one guy who bridged to me, road my wheel then attacked (great move on his part, he was in the driver seat), and finished 2nd overall. It felt great. I ended up actually entering and racing (those two things did not go hand in hand this year) Shenandoah 100 (single speed of course) and finished 11th IIRC (and not one wooded bathroom break!). I had some other notable races later. I figure if my health stays the way it is, I should be back to Cat 2 next year.
Things that I've changed since at least the ER/Hospital stay. No dairy. There has been a couple studies that have shown links between milk fats and crohn's disease. The mechanisms are still unknown, but I have had good success. I do listen to my body a bit more. Sometimes if I'm not feeling it, I just won't ride. My mileage numbers aren't what they used to be, but that's okay with me. One big thing is I try and get as much sleep as possible. One thing that I noticed was if I stay up late, especially a couple of days in a row, I started getting abdominal pains in similar areas where the pain first started over a year ago. I'm now on Humeria once a week, and I'm taking 6mp, another immuino-supressent. I read as much as I can about Crohn's, focusing on actual science based research (there's alot of crap out there from some guy trying to sell you something saying they have a cure). I've had some small flare ups since my "big one" but most of the time, with a little rest and if needed, a trip to my doc, I'm back to normal in a couple days.
To those out there reading this (or to myself if I look back at this post nearly I year from now, like I am on the original post of this thread):
There will be some bumps in the road. Listen to yourself. Life can go on like "almost" normal. I hate putting that caveat there, but little precautions are needed. For me, the biggest thing is staying away from dairy, coffee and spicy food, (3 things I do love). ...but, this year, I was able to pull the fastest lap I had ever done at my local MTB loop. I had some amazing races that I'm not even sure if I could have pulled them off the year prior. I have had great friends and family there by my side supporting me, helping me out, and being there for me. If your reading this looking for answers, first surround yourself with people that believe in you, then believe in yourself. There maybe some dark moments ahead, but with loving friends and family and a strong will, things will get better.
Firstly, very sorry to hear this, it's not nice to read and is worrying for myself even. Secondly, I guess fate brought me to this thread, which was responded to only yesterday as it's my first time on these forums in a while, and well I'm back, have hardly cycled since and was diagnosed back in September with Crohn's, and then Colitis after biopsies were checked (though I have no 'ulcers' in my Colon).
Now as I said I haven't been cycling much and am a casual cycler if that. Main reason why is well, living in London all we get is rain, and summers that aren't summers anymore! However, I've occupied the last couple years doing Wing Chun and a load of strength and fitness training at my old Wrestling club from when I was 15-16 (I'm now 25). That all fell apart end of summer and my six days of training turned into zero as my first flare totalled me (started in April/May, lasted till November?). During that period, Ramadan came and fasting in the summer isn't easy for most, yet for me I've been fasting 2 days a week for years now so Ramadan, whatever the season is usually breeze for me. With IBD now however, I struggled but on the plus side, my bowel had much, much rest. I fast 2 days a week still, when I can, and it definitely helps me but can be like a double-edged sword.
My colonoscopy was... not easy, I wasn't sedated and felt it all! Nurse was telling me how I was doing well and I thought 'yeah right', but after hearing the next man in the room scream I realised that I probably did do ok, having not been sedated and with such a constrict/inflamed bowel!
My condition eased in November having had taking Mesalazine, iron, multi-vits, zinc, omega 3. I also use a very expensive honey to help heal/soothe my gut. It got to the point i could tolerate any food again. Within a month, two close relatives passed away - from there my management went downhill and I'm back in a flare right now.
However, this time round I've felt an intolerance to wheat which I never noticed before. Unless in the form of a very thin bread like tortilla, Arabic flat bread etc., I struggle? I also noticed that with semi-skimmed cow's milk I seem okay. With full-fat my stomach bloats and the abs pain feels similar to what the colonoscopy done to me.
As for cycling, then well I'm back here as I'm planning to commute to work, an 11 mile trip with one steady but long up hill climb. Given how weak I am, I am concerned, but my heart is set on cycling to work. Knowing Crohn's however, I'm worried that my legs won't hold me, the saddle will be uber painful and well, all the rest. As more enthusiastic cyclists yourself, what do you reckon? I'm probably going to post with some other advice in another thread related to me hitting the roads, so if you have anything to say, might be worth checking that.
If you have good health insurance, look into biologics and/or low dose chemo drugs like Imuran/6mp. Reason why I say if you have good health insurance, the cost of my Humeria is right around $40,000 a year. If it weren't for health insurance, there would be no way I could afford it.
When I am in a flair, but its not horrible, I'll still try and ride and just bring an emergency kit with TP in a ziplock bag just incase (sometimes MTB may be a more viable option if there aren't alot of wooded road riding around you.
I used to work for sports nutrition company, we had a pro surfer with similar problems, he did find that taking a lot of fish oil supplements helped. The ones we supplied were kept frozen so they stayed fresh, I always get a bit suspect of the tablets that are sitting around in the shop for days on end at ambient temperatures.
Don't work there anymore and the company doesn't sell the supplements either so I'm not pushing anything, but I don't have any specific research (controlled studies) to back up what I'm saying either.
Thanks for the tips guys. Fish oils are suppose to be good yes. They leave you belching with awful breath though. Thing with me is, during the time I felt good, it was hard see what was helping me and what wasn't. Did the honey help?, the oil or was it purely the mesalazine etc. Unfortunately, the only safe conclusion I've been able to reach so far is that, when it comes to carbs, the rice/potatoes give me fewer/no problems unlike breads.
I hit the roads on hybrid for the first time the other day. Man I feel uselessly weak to ride since it all happened! lol.
These oils had been cold filtered and that seemed to help a lot with the belching - the fresher the oil is too will help with that, and these were, you took them like shots not in capsules so they had to have a clean none belch inducing taste!
The raw material wasn't made by our company so there's a chance something similar is still available