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  1. #176
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    It's in the latest CBO report and here is a reference from a report by NPR:

    The CBO says preventing cuts to defense spending would provide the biggest economic boost: about a $1.20 in extra GDP for every dollar added to the deficit. Preventing cuts to other government spending would be worth about 90-cents per borrowed dollar.

    CBO: 'Fiscal Cliff' Could Put U.S. Back In Recession : NPR
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  2. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curmy View Post
    Common sense.

    Socialism failed everywhere. It is a fact. Citing example of a small primitive tribe as an example for a nation of hundreds of millions does not make sense. None of it.
    Socialism failed everywhere? What exactly are you citing as failed examples?

  3. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilikebmx999 View Post
    The only part I'm confused about is how Walmart employees are paid poorly....it's not like they get paid less then what the government minimum is. Sooooo who's really to blame?
    Wal Mart could easily pay their workers more and get them off the poverty line, they just don't want to.

    The govt could intervene and make them pay better but they don't want to either. That would set too much of a precendent.

    The govt is run by corporate lobby groups anyways. It doesn't matter if the administration is republican or democrat, corporations basically get what they want.

    Look at the recent HSBC scandal involving money laundering, they are getting fined and thats it. Do you think an individual would get away with that?

  4. #179
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    He's referring to the colossal failures of China, Cuba and Vietnam and the non-Leninist/Marxist socialist countries of: Bangladesh, Guyana, India, Korea, Portugese Republic, Sri Lanka, and Tanzania. He's unaware that Socialism has many forms. Most people also think the US is a Democracy, which it isn't
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  5. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    The govt could intervene and make them pay better but they don't want to either. That would set too much of a precendent.



    It would also be in violation of the law. You should confine yourself to posts that deal with reality.
    Last edited by roadie scum; 12-20-2012 at 03:06 PM.

  6. #181
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    Guys, the key words here are "if you're in a bind". Hate Wal-Mart? Fine, some people do; don't shop there. Support your LBS; ask them to order cheap tires, find other places to get the same stuff? Yep I understand, and if that's your choice, it sounds good to me.

    BUT... if you find yourself in the unfortunate position of just having driven 3 hours to check out a new trail and something happens such that you need a new 29er tire, and that small town just 10 minutes away just happens to have a WalMart (and a feed store and a John Deere dealership, but no LBS), surely you could compromise your integrity JUST THIS ONCE, and armed with this information perhaps save your trip.

    Or, you could just scrap the entire trip, and INSTEAD of riding, you can congratulate yourself on the long 3-hour drive home that even though you wasted a lot of time. money, and effort, you stayed TRUE to the cause and showed those capitalist pigs what you were made of! No way your $25 is going to help spread their evil empire.

    Totally up to you. I am not going to try to change your mind, because I completely support your decision either way.

    Me? In this situation, I am going to Wal-Mart in a heartbeat and getting my a$$ back on the trail ASAP.
    Mind your own religion.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Curmy: Oh, I didn't know common sense was a valid source. "The world is flat" was common sense at one time too.

    First, socialism and capitalism are political and economic constructs where one, capitalism, presumes competition and monopoly and the other, socialism, as defined by Marx, is an overthrow of capitalism and an elimination of all monopolies. So, yes, in that sense, socialism, as defined by Marx, has been a failure because we still have capitalism and we still have monopolies.

    Socialism, in broader terms, can be viewed as a dearth of a state or monopolies. Which is what we had before the invasion of Columbus.

    CrippledOld Guy: To say, "killing 10 million people in a genocidal rampage was worth it because what we have today is better" is an interesting statement to make.
    wmac, For your carification here's what I said;
    The indiginus natives of North America, pre-Columbus, were not Socialist, but governed by tribal hierarchy. Many of which were extremely violent, as they battled other tribes for food and existence, and yes many died of starvation. Is this the course you'd have our society go in the name of the greater good?

    I'm certain that Karl Marx had no influence on north american natives, and their social structure. Futhermore their existence was far from benevolent and peaceful, it was a strugle to survive, hard fought, and difficult. They respected the animals they relied on for food, clothing, and emulated their sucesses, only the strong survived. There was no social justice that you cry out for now.

    If you give the wealth of the world to "the poor and the lazy" (your pharse) they will make sure it is returned.
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoisonDartFrog View Post
    Guys, the key words here are "if you're in a bind". Hate Wal-Mart? Fine, some people do; don't shop there. Support your LBS; ask them to order cheap tires, find other places to get the same stuff? Yep I understand, and if that's your choice, it sounds good to me.

    BUT... if you find yourself in the unfortunate position of just having driven 3 hours to check out a new trail and something happens such that you need a new 29er tire, and that small town just 10 minutes away just happens to have a WalMart (and a feed store and a John Deere dealership, but no LBS), surely you could compromise your integrity JUST THIS ONCE, and armed with this information perhaps save your trip.

    Or, you could just scrap the entire trip, and INSTEAD of riding, you can congratulate yourself on the long 3-hour drive home that even though you wasted a lot of time. money, and effort, you stayed TRUE to the cause and showed those capitalist pigs what you were made of! No way your $25 is going to help spread their evil empire.

    Totally up to you. I am not going to try to change your mind, because I completely support your decision either way.

    Me? In this situation, I am going to Wal-Mart in a heartbeat and getting my a$$ back on the trail ASAP.
    By being on topic, you are completely off-topic.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by PoisonDartFrog View Post
    Guys, the key words here are "if you're in a bind". Hate Wal-Mart? Fine, some people do; don't shop there. Support your LBS; ask them to order cheap tires, find other places to get the same stuff? Yep I understand, and if that's your choice, it sounds good to me.

    BUT... if you find yourself in the unfortunate position of just having driven 3 hours to check out a new trail and something happens such that you need a new 29er tire, and that small town just 10 minutes away just happens to have a WalMart (and a feed store and a John Deere dealership, but no LBS), surely you could compromise your integrity JUST THIS ONCE, and armed with this information perhaps save your trip.

    Or, you could just scrap the entire trip, and INSTEAD of riding, you can congratulate yourself on the long 3-hour drive home that even though you wasted a lot of time. money, and effort, you stayed TRUE to the cause and showed those capitalist pigs what you were made of! No way your $25 is going to help spread their evil empire.

    Totally up to you. I am not going to try to change your mind, because I completely support your decision either way.

    Me? In this situation, I am going to Wal-Mart in a heartbeat and getting my a$$ back on the trail ASAP.
    Ah, the voice of reason.

    And, from the far north Dallas area (howdy, neighbor).
    Contact information: http://about.me/marpilli

  10. #185
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    "Is this the course you'd have our society go in the name of the greater good?"

    Is the course that has been taken to build our current society justified in the name of the greater good?

    The people who became known as the Native American Indians arrived here 20,000 years ago. The only thing they wanted was a pair of 29er tires so as not to have wasted a trip.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  11. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by marpilli View Post
    Ah, the voice of reason.

    And, from the far north Dallas area (howdy, neighbor).
    Hi there! I like the old school GT singlespeed thread
    Mind your own religion.

  12. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    You have got to be kidding. You think the US is not in trouble. The highest unemployment rate ever, there are cities of tents growing everywhere. Free education is disappearing faster than a speeding bullet and there has never been real healthcare. The streets of all major cities have armies of street people pushing shopping carts around. And you want to hold this all up as a shining example of the 21st century.

    Nobody is suggesting that Wal Mart should give up its fortune just that they treat their work force like humans and get them off the poverty line and off social services.
    I don't know where you live, but the city I live in, here in the United States, is nothing like you describe. You need to move.

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by stepitup_onenotch View Post
    Socialism failed everywhere? What exactly are you citing as failed examples?
    Well, look....Greece, Portugal, Spain to name a few. What most people mean by socialism is great initially but eventually you run out of Other People's Money to give away. The fundamental flaw of the modern social-welfare state is the belief that people will not become freeloaders. They always do. Governments get what they pay for one way or another. If you pay people to do nothing they will do nothing. If you pay them to sit around having one baby after another none of which they can support they will.

    You see, it's not that I object to being taxed and having my money redistributed (well, I do of course), it's just that the majority of our tax money goes towards subsidizing the creation of a permanent underclass, stifling the economy in the process and making upward mobility increasingly more difficult.

    I happen to work with the underclass every stinking day and I have to tell you we have bred generation after generation of people who are so dependent on The Man that they know no other life nor the possibility of one. They are as ignorant and as any dark age peasant. It's frightening what 60 years of liberal social engineering has accomplished.

    None of socialism's ardent supporters ever address the problem of freeloaders and what to do when freeloading becomes the rule, not the exception. In a way, socialism is the art of never saying "no" to the people and sacrificing the future for short-term gratification.

  14. #189
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    It's also a moral issue. While we are an interdependent society and we all have responsibilities to our civilization, why should my freedom be stolen from me to support people who I've never met and have absolutely no function in society except to eat and breed?

  15. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post

    The fact is, intelligence resides on a bell curve. For everyone here with an IQ over 100, there is someone out there with an IQ under 100. For everyone with an emotional intelligence above average, there is someone with one below.

    This notion that everyone just needs to pick themselves up by the bootstraps and make something of themselves is ridiculous. Do you expect someone with an IQ of 80 to go to college? Do you expect someone who was beaten daily by their father to be well adjusted enough to accept authority?


    Ah...the very core of liberalism or progressivism or whatever you want to be called. The belief the people cannot take care of themselves and need a paternalistic state to manage their lives. Ironically, after sixty years of social engineering we have created just such a society.

    The other thing you have to realize is that just as everybody has different abilities so, too do they have different ambitions. I wouldn't be happy at a $40,000/year job but some people look at that as a pretty good life. If you have the IQ to want an expensive lifestyle than you have the IQ to work towards it. And I'm not talking about every ghetto-dweller or trailer park leviathan's dream of winning the lottery but the reasonable expectations people have for their lives.

    Your belief, on another note, that the only path to prosperity is through college is quaint and laughable. The primary role of higher education in our country has become to suck up as much Federal student loan money as possible and universities have become essentially nothing but picturesque diploma-mills turning out students who are not even suited to digging your beloved ditches. This is the sad truth. Anybody can get into college and there is a college for everyone and a major to boot even if you can get it reading on a sixth-grade level.

    Just one more institution corrupted by the free flow of government money.
    Last edited by Ailuropoda; 12-20-2012 at 11:04 PM.

  16. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post

    I've done jobs from soldier in the US military, to digging ditches and ultimately sales. I made 20 times more money last year than I did digging ditches and never got my hands dirty. The easiest jobs in the world are the ones where you don't get your hands dirty.
    Speak for yourself. My job is several orders of magnitude more difficult than digging ditches and I don't really do anything most people would call work. If you have an easy job that pays you a lot of money then congratulations but those kinds of jobs are rare and getting scarcer every year. The fact that you didn't have to work hard to land your job and don't work hard at it is probably why you are so disrespectful to the idea of hard work. Those of us who have arrived at our current position by blood, sweat and sacrifice would appreciate you not stealing our money.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    ....may I remind you that socialism worked for more than 10,000 years in North America until the individualist and capitalist named Columbus arrived and committed genocide on a scale not surpassed to this day.
    Are you intentionally overlooking the scale under the Third Reich?

  18. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Are you intentionally overlooking the scale under the Third Reich?
    Yeah...those famous National Socialists.

  19. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    It would also be in violation of the law. You should confine yourself to posts that deal with reality.
    How so? We already have federal minimum wage laws now. I think I could live with my once a decade Walmart emergency 29 incher tire costing slightly more to cover higher wages for Walmart employees. One thing that really bugs me about Walmart is that they are relying on taxpayers to pay their workers. They hold training to teach their employees how to apply for food stamps, govt. health care programs and other taxpayer provided benefits courtesy of the US federal and state taxpayers. How anyone could seriously celebrate such business practices as a glowing example of the "new capitalism" is completely beyond me.

    Fact: Taxpayers Are Paying the Price for Walmart

    Despite all the damage they have done to US workers and communities, a 2007 study found that, as of that date, Walmart had received more than $1.2 billion in tax breaks, free land, infrastructure assistance, low-cost financing and outright grants from state and local governments around the country.[9] This number has surely increased as Walmart continues to receive additional subsidies.

    Taxpayers Subsidize Walmart’s Low Wages and Poor Benefits – In many states across the country, Walmart is the employer with the largest number of employees and dependents using taxpayer-funded health insurance programs.[10]

    A few examples:
    In Arizona, according to data released by the state in 2005, the company had more 2,700 employees on the state-funded plan.[11]
    The company also topped the list in their home state of Arkansas, with nearly 4,000 employees forced onto the state’s plan according to data released by the state in 2005.[12]
    In Massachusetts, in 2009, taxpayers paid $8.8 million for Walmart associates to use publicly subsidized healthcare services.[13]
    Although national numbers are not available, if the cost to Massachusetts taxpayers is adjusted nationwide, the cost would be roughly $1 billion.[14]
    Top Reasons the Walton Family and Walmart are NOT

  20. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Well, look....Greece, Portugal, Spain to name a few. What most people mean by socialism is great initially but eventually you run out of Other People's Money to give away. The fundamental flaw of the modern social-welfare state is the belief that people will not become freeloaders. They always do. Governments get what they pay for one way or another. If you pay people to do nothing they will do nothing. If you pay them to sit around having one baby after another none of which they can support they will.

    You see, it's not that I object to being taxed and having my money redistributed (well, I do of course), it's just that the majority of our tax money goes towards subsidizing the creation of a permanent underclass, stifling the economy in the process and making upward mobility increasingly more difficult.

    I happen to work with the underclass every stinking day and I have to tell you we have bred generation after generation of people who are so dependent on The Man that they know no other life nor the possibility of one. They are as ignorant and as any dark age peasant. It's frightening what 60 years of liberal social engineering has accomplished.

    None of socialism's ardent supporters ever address the problem of freeloaders and what to do when freeloading becomes the rule, not the exception. In a way, socialism is the art of never saying "no" to the people and sacrificing the future for short-term gratification.
    Those countries are collapsing because of loan default. When you understand what an "Economic Hitman" is, you'll understand why what has happened, happened. In developing countries, they receive $1 of foreign aid for every $25 of debt interest payment owed.

    I also spent time working with the poor. I sort of agree that they are ignorant and know no other life. I was working with a bunch of teenagers and loaded them up in a van and drove them, literally, across the rail road tracks to one of the richest neighborhoods in town. I asked them, "What could you do to live in one of these houses?" The first response was, "I could be a maid!" I was shocked. The next answer, "I could be a basketball player."

    If you aren't familiar with the Stanford prison experiment, look it up on YouTube. It might help you understand why people take on the roles they do in society.

    I also think most people have a distorted, or lack of understanding, of any system other than our own. Socialism is bad because capitalism is a ponzi scheme that requires constant increase in consumption. It requires everyone participate. Socialist countries are not potential customers. When everyone is playing, then the winners will "legally" own everything. Ever played the game Monopoly?

    And as for your comment regarding "the majority of our tax money goes towards subsidizing the creation of a permanent underclass, stifling the economy in the process and making upward mobility increasingly more difficult," it is far from true.

    Our largest line items are Social Security and Defense Totaling 1.5T. Traditionally, Medicare is next, but because of our high unemployment, Income Security came in third in 2012. This is what you and so many others have so much disdain for. Giving the poor lazy people a roof over their head in the slums.

    Yes, it is a HUGE chunk of money, but I argue that most of the people receiving the benefits are not needing assistance for the reasons you claim. They are not all lazy, worthless, moochers scheming to suck off the teat of the government. People do not want to do nothing. What I have found is that most people want to do something. They desire to contribute, but there is no place for them to contribute with dignity and respect.

    Just look at the comments about the WalMart workers in this thread alone. Not everyone is capable of contributing equally. It shouldn't mean they live a life of disrespect. For you to make a comment that, "If you pay them to sit around having one baby after another none of which they can support they will," is misanthropic. It's like saying white middle and upper class women have the same motivation to have children - so they can sit around and do nothing. According to your logic, poor women shouldn't have the option to not work and raise their children the same way as middle and upper class women because they weren't fortunate enough to be attractive and intelligent enough to attract a mate with a stable income.

    You work hard to put a roof over your head, I get it. You bust your ass to put food on the table. I get it. It isn't fair that someone else doesn't work hard or bust their ass and they get a roof over their head and food on the table. I get it.

    Now, trade places with them for the rest of your life. Live in their free housing and don't work all day. See how much you like it. That isn't socialism. That is the blowback of a system that is designed to systematically create poverty. It is designed to enable a small percentage of a population to accumulate wealth.

    The purpose of an economy is to service unlimited desires with limited resources, otherwise known as rationing. Our economic system is supposed to fairly distribute resources. Yes, there will be some that have more than others. Marx argued that the price of product should b reduced to the cost of labor and that accumulation of wealth throughh someone else's labor is slavery. That's why some here have argued that the workers should own the tools of production, because Locke himself discussed the creation of wealth is through labor only.

    Yet, we have reached a point in our society where the highest paid people in the world, hedge fund managers and financiers, do no labor at all. They are simply financing finance and profiting from the labor of others. That is slavery.

    The sickening part of all of this is there is no reason for anyone in this world to starve or to not have easy access to clean, fresh water, or access to education and knowledge. The cost to solve these three problems, globally is less than the total wealth of the five members of the Walton family. I'm not suggesting they give all their money away to solve these problems, but I am putting this into perspective for you.

    Socialism does address the problem of the free loaders and freeloading does not become the rule. Freeloading occurs when people have quit the game because they see no reason to play. If you grew up in a really bad situation and an IQ of 80, would you dream of going to Harvard?

    No, you'd look around and try to get out and better your situation. So you try and apply at all the fast food places in your neighborhood, but you can't get a job because minimum wage laws force employers to hire someone worth the minimum wage, which isn't you. Guess what, you don't have and aren't going to get the basic skills necessary to do even the most basic of all jobs. Add on top of that the rapid increase of automation for the sake of cost savings and efficiency. All of the absolute, most basic of jobs that used to be performed by the people with low intelligence and emotional quotient are gone.

    How are they supposed to contribute? How are they supposed to feed themselves? Should they live a life of squalor because they drew a short straw from the gene pool? I thought humanity was better than that.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  21. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by BruceBrown View Post
    Are you intentionally overlooking the scale under the Third Reich?
    And Godwin's law strikes again. Depends on which scholars you believe. Some reports, by the Spanish themselves, state that in Hispaniola alone, he was responsible for 3 million Indian deaths within 12 years. Some estimate as many as eight million in North America. Again, according to what account you want to believe, raw numbers alone exceed the Third Reich and when you adjust for total percent of global population, it is staggering. Now, Small Pox was a major contributor to these deaths, but you can't discount cutting off the hands of those who didn't find enough gold as an effective way of killing as well.

    Regardless, are you defending the genocide of even one million people?
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  22. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    Yeah...those famous National Socialists.
    Nazi Führer Adolf Hitler had objected to the party's previous leader's decision to use the word "Socialist" in its name as Hitler at the time instead preferred to use "Social Revolutionary".[14] Upon taking over the leadership, Hitler kept the term but defined socialism as meaning a commitment of an individual to a community.[14] Hitler claimed that true socialism does not repudiate private property unlike the claims of Marxism, and claimed that the "Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning" and said that "Communism is not socialism. Marxism is not socialism."[15] Nazism favoured private property, freedom of contract, and promoted the creation of national solidarity that would transcend class differences.[16][17] The Nazis outlawed strikes by employees and lockouts by employers, because these were regarded a threat to national unity.[18] Instead, the state controlled and approved wage and salary levels.[18]

    Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  23. #198
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    A majority of scholars identify Nazism in practice as a form of far-right politics.[21] Far right themes in Nazism include the argument that superior people have a right to dominate over others and purge society of supposed inferior elements.[8]

    Nazism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Those countries are collapsing because of loan default. When you understand what an "Economic Hitman" is, you'll understand why what has happened, happened. In developing countries, they receive $1 of foreign aid for every $25 of debt interest payment owed.

    Dude, they are defaulting on their loans because, like us, they have to borrow a lot of money to pay for social services of the "cradle to grave" variety and have absolutely no possibility of ever paying it back. Their creditors realize this and will now only lend on the worst of terms and then only if some of the less ailing Eurozone members (like Germany) back the loans. Money, which represents the perceived value of the an economies goods and services cannot be created out of thin air...although desperate governments will always try to; creating money from nothing and hoping inflationary pressure lags perception of the scheme.

    I repeat, the Social Welfare schemes of the entire Western world are failing because they have finally outstripped their ability to generate the wealth required to fund their obligations. Where do you think the debt burden comes from?

    You called capitalism a Ponzi scheme but I don't think you quite understand what that really means. Socialism, as it eventually plays out, is the biggest Ponzi scheme running. Literally, not metaphorically because there is no money left to pay future obligations. The criminal thing is that your Ruling Class Elite Masters play you like a puppet and turn you against the productive class, the one entity that can save you from ruin. For my part, like you, I am a slave to the Government-Finance-Cronyism complex and I am, if anything, more disgusted with the system than you are. Capitalism? I say we give it a try because we have strayed far, far away from free enterprise and free markets.

    On another note, while capitalism has it's flaws, it is at least pay-as-you-go and fair in the old-fashioned sense that we all succeed or fail on our own merits. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, Captialism is the worst system except for all the others. We spend a good deal of time pointing out the flaws of the free market, I now want you to step outside of your conditioning and tell me the flaws of socialism. Certainly it has some?

    Defense, by the way, is something like 20 percent of the federal budget and around four percent of GDP. You could eliminate all defense spending and we'd still run a deficit. You cannot balance the budget and solve the entitlement problem by cutting defense.
    Last edited by Ailuropoda; 12-21-2012 at 01:27 AM.

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    Greece borrowed more than it was legally supposed to - something those who loaned them the money knew. Couple that with wide-spread tax evasion and you have a collapse.

    Social welfare schemes are not the same as a socialist system. Frankly, I don't think you really have a firm grasp of socialism and capitalism.

    Yes, I know exactly what a Ponzi scheme is and I used the term because you have to continually add new people and new markets to keep it going. If all the IOUs were called in, the entire capitalist system would collapse - just like a Ponzi scheme.

    We have these entitlement programs because they were designed to shift the burden of the needs of the workers from the corporations and transfer them to the people. So, what we have done is subsidize the profits of the corporations by eliminating their responsibility to the health and welfare of the workers. Pensions are now 401ks and Social Security and healthcare is now Medicaid.

    Like I said in the beginning, corporations are a way for a small class of people to profit off the labor of others with no ethical or moral responsibility to those people insofar as it does not negatively impact the company's ability to generate a profit.

    Then they use those profits to empower themselves to circumvent even more responsibilities so they can empower themselves even more.

    It's a Big Club, and You Ain't In It

    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

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