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  1. #251
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    Arguing with liberals is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around the table looking victorious.
    Nice analogy.

  2. #252
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    Oh, I know what capital gains taxes are. I reject that entire paper on the basis that, like you said, most normal people don't prosper much from capital gains. You sell a house and make a hundred grand, fine. You make 100 million a year from selling stock, pay up.

    And it's funny you mention emotion and economic decisions. Economics is based on rational decision making. Yet, I make a living by knowing all decisions are based in emotion. Companies know,this and spend billions of dollars a year tugging at your emotions. They pay outrageous salaries to sales people who can make a sale happen based on emotion. Therefore, economic theory is, basically, invalid.

    Take Locke's theory of supply and demand for example. It works for commodities but when you start talking about assets, higher prices start heating up demand - it's inverse because of the emotion involved. That's why we have bubbles and busts.

    Look, this has been a lot of fun. Like I stated earlier, I don't think our beliefs are that far off. I'm really sorry your family had to go through what they did. I am not advocating Marxist/Leninist communism and I'm certainly not advocating monarchism or fascism.

    What I am advocating is a better understanding of how we became the most prosperous nation on earth, the blowback as a result and the issues we face as we move forward.

    Good chat.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post

    Ailuropoda brought up Greece and socialism and claimed it is collapsing because the poor and lazy moochers and freeloaders bankrupted the system. When I looked into it a little more, it turns out the moochers and freeloaders are the upper middle class and wealthy elite who have been evading taxes. They are what caused the continual deficit spending, which led to the government doing illegal banking deals with their crony capitalist criminal friends and caused economic collapse and they should all be in jail. So far, there has been no accountability.

    And then he has disdain for the underclass, who did everything right. They played by the rules and elected someone who would properly represent their interests. And what did the wealthy do? Gave them the middle finger and said, NO, we shouldn't have to follow those laws, because we don't like them.

    No no no. You don't understand the term "Freeloader." I probably pay more income tax than 99 percent of the people on this forum. If I decide to pay less by either cheating a little or taking every single deduction I can this does not make me a freeloader. No matter what I end up paying I am still shoveling much more into the gaping pie hole of government than I will ever see a benefit from and many, many times more than the majority of Americans, the majority of who pay no income taxes whatsoever and many of whom receive the "Earned Income Tax Credit."

    In other words, I don't put any more wear-and-tear on the interstate, I don't get my own personal aircraft carrier, and if you look at it I get almost nothing in return for what I pay. This is the opposite of a "freeloader." In some circles I would be called a "sucker' because I don't get to enjoy the party but get stiffed with the bill.

    The government spends nothing to maintain me and I am not responsible for the deficit. The deficit here and in most of the Western world is the direct result of social spending of which I see exactly zero benefit. We agree that politicians constitute, as Mark Twain observed, America's native criminal class but to blaming the rich for deficit spending is the result of your leftist indoctrination.

    You need to internalize this. Money represents struggle, sweat, and hard work for most people. It belongs to you, not the government because you earned it. Naturally we have obligations to our society and taxation is a reasonable way to distribute and pay for these obligations. Confiscatory tax rates, however, are tyrannical as they make enterprising and successful people nothing but slaves to an out-of-control state.

    The underclass do not "do everything right." Many of them, here and in Greece, actually do nothing except riot and vote. You have this idealized view of the poor that I assure you has very little to do with reality. Siting on your ass all day collecting disability, welfare, working at a useless government job, or hiding in higher education for your entire life is not "doing everything right" but the very definition of freeloading.

  4. #254
    Davir
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    saved me, on the way to a long week end riding in arkansas, realized my hydration pack and its stash of tools tubes and its ability to carry water were at home in oklahoma,bike shops dont exactly abound in the natural state so a quick stop at walmart and i had 2 cages, 29tubes,allens, water bottles and a screw on top bottle to hold my repare kit. in and out in no time as wally world was right along the highway.i would rather eat light blubs than shop at walmart but it sure worked out.

  5. #255
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    I've enjoyed this conversation, from all sides. Very enlightening.

    I have issues with the following.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    It belongs to you, not the government because you earned it. Naturally we have obligations to our society and taxation is a reasonable way to distribute and pay for these obligations.
    This seems contradictory to me. Can you expand?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    You have this idealized view of the poor that I assure you has very little to do with reality. Siting on your ass all day collecting disability, welfare, working at a useless government job, or hiding in higher education for your entire life is not "doing everything right" but the very definition of freeloading.
    Hmm. I would argue that you have a heavily biased view about the poor (as opposed to wmac having an idealized view). Based on my own (biased) experiences growing up in a poor, urban, working class community, I would say that the freeloaders you describe are the exception, and not the norm. They just happen to be so outrageous in their actions that, unfortunately, they stand out the most. Especially when their actions are highlighted for political gain.

    I've positive rep'd you, Axe, and WMAC. While I don't agree with everything you've written, I have found these posts very informative. They've caused me to reconsider some of my opinions. Thanks.
    Last edited by antonio; 12-22-2012 at 09:03 AM. Reason: misunderstood post

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by HAL 9000 View Post
    Arguing with liberals is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around the table looking victorious.

    Seems most Americans think that approximately 50% of their fellow citizens have brains the size of pigeons regardless of what team they happen to support.

    I'm guessing that our government- and when I say government I mean Walmart, doesn't mind this at all. Divide and conquer. Go Bears!

  7. #257
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    What about my statement above isn't true? Here are statements that you made that aren't true:
    Tax evasion is justified
    You see little benefit from your tax payments
    You get almost nothing in return for what you pay
    The government spends nothing to maintain you
    All deficits are the result of social spending
    I am a leftist
    Money belongs to you or me
    Underclass do nothing except riot and vote
    My view of reality is distorted
    People with disabilities, who need assistance, work in government, work in higher education is a worthless existence

    Here is where your tax money went in the past year that you feel you did not benefit from:
    National Defense
    International Affairs
    General Science, Space and Technology
    Energy
    Natural Resources and Environment
    Agriculture
    Commerce and Housing Credit
    Community and Regional Development
    Education, Training, Employment and Social Services
    Health
    Medicare
    Income Security
    Social Security
    Veterans Benefits and Services
    Administration of Justice
    General Government

    To say that you didn't benefit, AT ALL, from what your tax payments paid for is ignorant. You're not doing this on your own.

    And if you voted for anyone other than Gary Johnson in this past election, you are a hypocrite. If that is the case, you give lip service to being a Libertarian, free market, individual rights kind of guy, but do not support it. If you did not vote for Gary Johnson, you are just feeding into the status quo in the name of being against socialism. Well guess what? YOU are the the one with the distorted reality. The two party political system is what perpetuates this madness.

    I have worked with the Libertarian Party. I have spoken to crowds of people ON BEHALF of the Libertarian Party. I have CAMPAIGNED for the Libertarian Party.

    Stop perpetuating the madness and blaming everything on poor people.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  8. #258
    the half breed devil
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    Quote Originally Posted by J.B. Weld View Post
    Seems most Americans think that approximately 50% of their fellow citizens have brains the size of pigeons regardless of what team they happen to support.

    I'm guessing that our government- and when I say government I mean Walmart, doesn't mind this at all. Divide and conquer. Go Bears!
    would that be the baylor bears, the chicago bears or the california bears? or, the university of maine bears?

  9. #259
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  10. #260
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    To say that you didn't benefit, AT ALL, from what your tax payments paid for is ignorant. You're not doing this on your own.
    What he said is that he had benefited disproportionately (by orders of magnitude) little compared to his contribution. So did I. He was very eloquent and explicit stating exactly that. Do not twist his words trying to conjure an argument that you do not actually have.

  11. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by shekky View Post
    would that be the baylor bears, the chicago bears or the california bears? or, the university of maine bears?
    Cal Bears of course!

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    What he said is that he had benefited disproportionately (by orders of magnitude) little compared to his contribution. So did I. He was very eloquent and explicit stating exactly that. Do not twist his words trying to conjure an argument that you do not actually have.
    "The government spends nothing to maintain me and I am not responsible for the deficit."

    Unless he doesn't live here, I did not twist any words. Those who consume the services cannot pay for them. The service provided benefits everyone.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  13. #263
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    WMAC,
    On many of your posts you've cited Wikipida as a source, was that acceptable in your classes?
    From now on let's use a proper APA format!
    And yes, I am on my way to an ass kickin contest

  14. #264
    Nouveau Retrogrouch SuperModerator
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    Done!
    This thread has gone way OT and is just rehashing a much argued topic.
    That it elsewhere if you must.
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