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  1. #226
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    The sun came every day in the past 100 years.

    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    The sun came every day in the past 100 years.
    This graph does not reflect what was ACTUALLY paid. When the nominal rate was lowered - a whole lot of deductions and exceptions had been phased out.

    That graph is lying with numbers. It does not reflect actual $$$ paid, nor the actual taxes paid.

    This one does:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails So, if you're in a bind, Wal Mart.-taxrates.jpg  


  3. #228
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    So if you're in a bind...


  4. #229
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    You missed my point in that our GDP grew and the world did not end in times with tax rates at 90% on the highest earners.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  5. #230
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    Does WalMart have any for horses?
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Does WalMart have any for horses?
    Well I searched for horse coffins but the Wal-Mart search engine has other ideas...


  7. #232
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    No, WalMart, that is not what I meant.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  8. #233
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    Go home WalMart, you're drunk.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    No, WalMart, that is not what I meant.
    No no no bad Wal-Mart. Seriously, what the heck are people searching for on that web site for it to suggest such a thing??

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Go home WalMart, you're drunk.
    YES!


  11. #236
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    I seriously read this as "So if you're blind in a Wal-Mart."

    Holy crap I can't think of a worse hell.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by pointerDixie214 View Post
    I seriously read this as "So if you're blind in a Wal-Mart."

    Holy crap I can't think of a worse hell.
    Wow, I've read every post and although this thread is way off target, its very interesting.

    I'm not even in the same league to converse with these posters, but I find it interesting, that you can take the most knowledgeable people, present them with a problem, and have them come up with totally different answers. Nice

  13. #238
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    Glad you learned something Full disclosure: I think you could put us all in a room and we'd come to an agreement. I don't think our beliefs are that far off. It's just we see the facts a little differently. Once we see each other's point of view, we could probably agree on what needs to be done to fix things.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Okay, on to Greek Socialism. You are correct in that I was not familiar with the Greek economy or the role of the Socialist Party before today.

    I learned that Greece was under the rule of a Military Junta until 1974 when the Socialist Party displaced that dictatorship. I also learned that it has a capitalist economy and is also rated as one of the most corrupt in terms of crony capitalism. It is also no surprise that the economic collapse was due to huge borrowing for infrastructure projects and the result was textbook of an economic hitman.

    You are correct that the Public Sector accounts for 40% of the GDP. However, with such a small population and small economy, it is to be expected that administration be a large part.

    So what if your uncle has a lame job. It's better than paying $40k a year to incarcerate him for a non-violent drug offense.

    As for your tax rate being 90% on everything over $100k - fine. You and I would stop working after a couple of months, and it would likely give someone else a chance to be productive. Or, it would give someone else, who loves to help people, the opportunity to truly treat people without the worry of how long they spend with the patient. Remember, there are doctors who treat people everyday, all over the world, without getting paid.

    Regan's narcissistic view of no incentive for him to make movies after one a year was nonsense. The studio wouldn't shut down and neither would the hospital you work at. Resources would align more to what is needed instead of what is desired.

    I think a lot of people are rioting because they view the current system as unfair - because it is.

    The New Democracy Party took over after the Junta fell which is the Greek equivalent of the Republican Party. The Socialists took over in the early eighties and have driven the country into the dirt.

    Greece is not in debt because of borrowing for infrastructure which, as in our country, a small part of the budget. Greece is in debt from the cumulative cost of free health care, Social Security, free higher education, and the free pensions, salaries and lavish benefits for the huge and redundant hordes of useless civil servants. Everyone knows this. Even the politicians. They're just too in love with their power to tell the people, "Oxi." (no).

    My uncle is a fine fellow but economically he is a parasite. He doesn't even provide a useful service like the doctors and trash collectors who are also civil servants. Socialist states have tendency to evolve bloated and self-serving bureaucracies that devour the nation they are created to serve. It's human nature, something that socialism ignores.

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ailuropoda View Post
    The New Democracy Party took over after the Junta fell which is the Greek equivalent of the Republican Party. The Socialists took over in the early eighties and have driven the country into the dirt.

    Greece is not in debt because of borrowing for infrastructure which, as in our country, a small part of the budget. Greece is in debt from the cumulative cost of free health care, Social Security, free higher education, and the free pensions, salaries and lavish benefits for the huge and redundant hordes of useless civil servants. Everyone knows this. Even the politicians. They're just too in love with their power to tell the people, "Oxi." (no).

    My uncle is a fine fellow but economically he is a parasite. He doesn't even provide a useful service like the doctors and trash collectors who are also civil servants. Socialist states have tendency to evolve bloated and self-serving bureaucracies that devour the nation they are created to serve. It's human nature, something that socialism ignores.
    Well, that contradicts what I've found. It is not a socialist state if it has a capitalist economic system. It is a welfare state, with a capitalist economic system, run by a socialist political party with the one of the highest ratings of crony capitalism in the world.

    "Greece is a welfare state which provides a number of social services such as universal health care and pensions. In the 2012 budget, expenses for the welfare state (excluding education) stand at an estimated €22.487 billion[153] (€6.577 billion for pensions[153] and €15.910 billion for social security and health care expenses),[153] or 31.9% of the all state expenses.[153]" Economy of Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    The US spends more than 50% on those same expenses. And I couldn't find any evidence of an 80% tax rate. I did find this:

    "Greece's personal income tax rate up until recently ranged from 0% for annual incomes below €12,000[150] and 45% for annual incomes over €100,000.[150] Under the new 2010 tax reform, tax exemptions have been abolished.[150]"

    And there is no excuse for tax evasion:

    "Greece suffers from very high levels of tax evasion. In the last quarter of 2005, tax evasion reached 49%,[154] while in January 2006 it fell to 41.6%.[154] A study by researchers from the University of Chicago concluded that tax evasion in 2009 by self-employed professionals alone in Greece (accountants, dentists, lawyers, doctors, personal tutors and independent financial advisers) was €28 billion or 31% of the budget deficit that year.[155]" Economy of Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    And the idea that all the workers are lazy is unfounded as well:

    "The Greek labor force, which totals approximately 5 million, works the second highest number of hours per year on average among OECD countries, after South Korea.[54] The Groningen Growth & Development Centre has published a poll revealing that between 1995 and 2005, Greece was the country whose workers worked the most hours/year among European nations; Greeks worked an average of 1,900 hours per year, followed by Spaniards (average of 1,800 hours/year).[55]"

    Regardless of how the debt was run up, when I search "Greece crony capitalism," there are pages and pages of articles about the crony capitalism that plagues the country.

    A currency swap arranged with Goldman Sachs allowed Greece to “hide” $1 billion of debt. In early 2010, it was revealed that through the assistance of Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase and numerous other banks, financial products were developed which enabled the governments of Greece, Italy and possibly other countries to hide their borrowing.[74][75] This had enabled Greek governments to spend beyond their means, while meeting the deficit targets of the European Union and the monetary union guidelines.[75][76]

    A lot of this spending and borrowing was to host the Olympics.

    I'm sure you're busy, but, in order for me to buy into your argument, I have to ask: Source?
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    You missed my point in that our GDP grew and the world did not end in times with tax rates at 90% on the highest earners.
    You missed my point that rich people did not actually pay 90% (which started at inflation adjusted $1M+ http://taxfoundation.org/sites/taxfo...d-20110909.xls) Capital gains rate was at 25% anyway, and that is the main source of high incomes.

    The fact that collection increased after the reform of 64 and thereafter is a fact.

    And why do you care? Even if you confiscate the entirety of wealth of the top 1%, if would barely make a dent in the spending and deficit. What is the point? Jealousy? Class warfare?

    It does not work. Period. You have to experience it to believe it, but history proves it over and over and over again.

  17. #242
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    Your graph showed >1979 only. Have the same for '44 to '64 when it was 90%?
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Your graph showed >1979 only. Have the same for '44 to '64 when it was 90%?
    Look at average effective tax rate here: Historical Capital Gains and Taxes
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails So, if you're in a bind, Wal Mart.-tax-collection-versus-gdp.jpg  


  19. #244
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    Am I reading that right that it is just Capital Gains revenue?
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Your graph showed >1979 only. Have the same for '44 to '64 when it was 90%?
    In short - what are you exactly proposing? What is the point of it?

    Do you think they will collect much more money and spend on something useful? History shows this is not the case. Theory shows it is not the case.

    We talked about Walmart - and some back of the envelop calculations shows that it is utterly pointless to confiscate wealth from it owners.

    Another problem is evident in California. Highly progressive taxation is inherently volatile. Which is probably the intent of the Sacramento jerks, who spend like drunken sailors in good days, and they cry foul about "cuts to education" during lean years - even if on average they are still well ahead in the spending spree after all those short term cuts.

  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finch Platte View Post

    And please, yes, I know how bad Wal Mart is.
    please explain exactly why Wal-Mart is bad?

  22. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by CrippledOld Guy View Post
    You know absolutely nothing about WalMart, everything you cited is so far from fact it's laughable.
    :
    Arguing with liberals is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter how good I am at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over all the pieces, crap on the board, and strut around the table looking victorious.

  23. #248
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    My point is we have had much higher marginal tax rates on the income tax burden on a smaller portion of the population and experienced GDP growth at the same time. I believe capital gains taxes should be staggeringly high as it was not created through labor. If you are a real capitalist then you should agree with Locke that value is ONLY created through labor.

    I do not agree that it is utterly pointless to confiscate wealth from its owners, unless you can propose a better method of collecting revenues.

    Ailuropoda brought up Greece and socialism and claimed it is collapsing because the poor and lazy moochers and freeloaders bankrupted the system. When I looked into it a little more, it turns out the moochers and freeloaders are the upper middle class and wealthy elite who have been evading taxes. They are what caused the continual deficit spending, which led to the government doing illegal banking deals with their crony capitalist criminal friends and caused economic collapse and they should all be in jail. So far, there has been no accountability.

    And then he has disdain for the underclass, who did everything right. They played by the rules and elected someone who would properly represent their interests. And what did the wealthy do? Gave them the middle finger and said, NO, we shouldn't have to follow those laws, because we don't like them.

    Everyone likes to blame the poor for all the spending. Well, duh - the people who consume the services cannot pay for them.

    This is absolutely a spending problem, but to pin all our problems on taxes that are too high to pay for the programs in place to help the poor is misanthropic. The entire tax system is just a way for government to give special favors to their crony capitalist friends. And to have these pie in the sky ideals about the true free market is just naive. If you want to have a conversation about anarcho-capitalism, I am ready.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  24. #249
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    Hal, you are late to the party and didn't do your assigned reading.
    No, YOU don't understand. You're making an ass of yourself for all of eternity.

  25. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by wmac View Post
    Am I reading that right that it is just Capital Gains revenue?
    That's what really rich people pay. They ain't getting a paycheck.

    Look at figure 5 here - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...,d.b2I&cad=rja

    And figure 1.

    In any case, I am not a professional economist (though I am reasonably good with statistics). All I know is that making economic decisions based on emotion (and not a very savory emotion at that) is never a good idea. Sock the rich does not do any good - history of my people is a prime example. Millions and millions had been murdered in the name of the experiment (including of my grandparents), that would be enough.

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