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Thread: Seriously?

  1. #76
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    There is no clear front runner to replace petroleum. Anyone investing in such at this point is taking a huge gamble. If I was an oil company (Exxon stock anyone?), I would ride this one out as apposed to loosing my hat on the wrong 'green' technology.
    Whatever floats your bike, dude

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    There is no clear front runner to replace petroleum. Anyone investing in such at this point is taking a huge gamble. If I was an oil company (Exxon stock anyone?), I would ride this one out as apposed to loosing my hat on the wrong 'green' technology.
    Have you had a look at what they are doing in Europe, they obviously didn't get your memo.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

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    Not sure I can add anything of value to this thread, so I'll just say I'd ride on that cold white stuff, and let others worry about the consequences of where and why the stuff is on the ground.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    There is no clear front runner to replace petroleum. Anyone investing in such at this point is taking a huge gamble. If I was an oil company (Exxon stock anyone?), I would ride this one out as apposed to loosing my hat on the wrong 'green' technology.
    Yep,
    Look at the solar energy companies that went belly up recently.
    Currently oil and natural gas is cheap enough and "green" technologies new enough that the green technologies usually require government incentives to compete on cost.
    Oil companies have made some investments in other technologies. BP has a solar division which is a large player in that market. And some mid-east countries have renewable energy goals.
    The main problem is what people will buy. Given choices most consumers will chose the cheaper and more convenient choice, which for now is oil and natural gas.

    Europe as a whole uses oil and renewables in similar proportions to the US. The US is one of the front runners in installed wind capacity. And while Europeans do drive somewhat less than the US nearly every car on the road still uses petroleum based fuels.

    Craig

  5. #80
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    Maybe we can speed this global warming thing along by burning this thread!
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  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBBaron View Post
    Yep,
    Look at the solar energy companies that went belly up recently.
    Currently oil and natural gas is cheap enough and "green" technologies new enough that the green technologies usually require government incentives to compete on cost.
    Oil companies have made some investments in other technologies. BP has a solar division which is a large player in that market. And some mid-east countries have renewable energy goals.
    The main problem is what people will buy. Given choices most consumers will chose the cheaper and more convenient choice, which for now is oil and natural gas.

    Europe as a whole uses oil and renewables in similar proportions to the US. The US is one of the front runners in installed wind capacity. And while Europeans do drive somewhat less than the US nearly every car on the road still uses petroleum based fuels.

    Craig
    And why did the solar companies go belly up? There is a lot more to this lame argument.

    The US gets 13% of it's power from renewable sources. Quite a few European countries do significantly better.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rces.html?_r=0
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBBaron View Post
    Yep,
    Look at the solar energy companies that went belly up recently.
    I'd counter that for those companies who were pushing the limits, and perhaps made poor business choices (I don't know enough to speak on that), sure, they went belly up.

    But it's akin to saying "see, those bike shops closed, the bike business must be dying". It isn't an accurate measure. Companies rise and fall all the time. I know it helps the denier argument that they are solar companies, but solar is well established, and works great. More investment will only serve to improve efficiency.

    Let's not forget, since you mentioned government subsidies and incentives, that big oil gets huge amounts of money from the government, in the form of tax breaks, subsidies, etc. This is why oil and nat gas "are cheap"......

    Don't get me started on their record profits, whilst being subsidized and not paying their full tax load though.
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  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBBaron View Post
    This comment made me wonder. The area of the oceans is enormous compared to the land and the area of land covered by ice is just a small fraction. So I did some math.

    Greenland ice sheet is 2400x1100 km and about 2km deep. The more exact estimates are 1,710,000 square kilometres and 2,850,000 cubic kilometres of ice.
    The worlds oceans have an area of about 361 million km≤.
    So if the entire Greenland ice sheet were to melt that 2.8 million km^3 would be divided among the 361 million km^2 area of the ocean for about 7.7 m deep

    And the Antarctic ice sheet is bigger
    And that does not account for any glaciers in Alaska, Canada, Asia, etc.

    So it seems it is possible mathematically.

    Craig
    Math is an evil liberal plot!

    (we have some ice in AK too! )
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    And why did the solar companies go belly up? There is a lot more to this lame argument.

    The US gets 13% of it's power from renewable sources. Quite a few European countries do significantly better.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...rces.html?_r=0
    Like Iceland for example with it's 100% renewable? Iceland who is the size of Ohio with less than 3% of the population?? Kind of an apples to oranges comparison with the US isn't it? And the discussion was about petroleum so I assume all the transportation in Iceland is electric nowadays? Just sayin!

    For a while I was laughing at all the poor souls caught up in this thread headed nowhere good and now look at me!

    THAT SNOW IS BLUE!!!

    Whatever floats your bike, dude

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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I'd counter that for those companies who were pushing the limits, and perhaps made poor business choices (I don't know enough to speak on that), sure, they went belly up.
    Sorry I was not clear on this point. I was pointing out its not necessarily an easy business to make money. A couple things contributed to the problems, one the economic slow down reduced energy demands which reduced energy prices. And government incentives decreased due to budget pressures. Both made solar energy less competitive. Coupled with increased competition and questionable business plans ... you get the picture.

    The renewable energy incentives are a much bigger piece of the price of renewables than they are of other industries (rightly so I believe). Tax breaks by oil companies is ofcourse a big deal but it is very hard to determine exactly how much is being paid on what for these big corporations due to the complexity of the accounting and our tax code. According to one article I read there are multiple full time IRS accountants assigned just to Exxon

    Seems what is really needed is a streamlining of the tax code so we can follow the money

    Craig

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    Like Iceland for example with it's 100% renewable? Iceland who is the size of Ohio with less than 3% of the population?? Kind of an apples to oranges comparison with the US isn't it? And the discussion was about petroleum so I assume all the transportation in Iceland is electric nowadays? Just sayin!

    For a while I was laughing at all the poor souls caught up in this thread headed nowhere good and now look at me!

    THAT SNOW IS BLUE!!!

    Of course it's not the same. Petroleum isn't used only for transportation. The whole climate change issue isn't about issues caused only by transportation. There is a huge overall issue here and thousands, if not millions of pieces to the puzzle.

    But look at what you had originally stated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dustin Mustangs View Post
    There is no clear front runner to replace petroleum. Anyone investing in such at this point is taking a huge gamble. If I was an oil company (Exxon stock anyone?), I would ride this one out as apposed to loosing my hat on the wrong 'green' technology.
    Obviously, others are finding replacements for petroleum. I'm not naive enough that I expect it to happen over night, but it's not going to happen at all unless there is a real push to make it happen.

    Hopefully the big oil companies will get left with their pants down, and cease to be relevant.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

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    The Big Oil companyís make money thatís why there are there, to make money, the same reason most of us go to work. We are the reason they make money because we demand there products they produce. More demand the more they can charge, itís very simple they do what any business does. That is also why they have to worry about the tax code.
    You cannot say that about most of the Green technology industry they are not economically feasible. They are subsidized by the Government rather its electric cars, wind turbines green building technology the list goes on. A lot of that Government money is from the oil industry taxs. Also we have given the green industry a pass on being environmentally sound. Look at what it takes to make an electric car, the short life of the batteries and the disposal of them nobody talks about that. Wind turbines very small returns for high cost of manufacturing and operation. Here in Anchorage they have to increase rate to cover the cost of a few wind turbines we have. Even after they subsidized the whole process manufacturing ,install, land lease and they still had to raise the rates. No to mention the birds that get killed by the rotors. They donít even get a second look because its green. If any other industry had the same problems as the green industry the government agencies would regulate and fine them out of business. The green industry need to clean it self-up and find a way to be economically viable. Then we all can take it seriously and start to wean ourselves off some the things that are doing harm to the environment. It will happen I am sure, but we need to stop pointing a finger at every other industry and make the green industry step up, be real, stop being prompt up and produce something that is economically feasible.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    The Big Oil companyís make money thatís why there are there, to make money, the same reason most of us go to work. We are the reason they make money because we demand there products they produce. More demand the more they can charge, itís very simple they do what any business does. That is also why they have to worry about the tax code.
    You cannot say that about most of the Green technology industry they are not economically feasible. They are subsidized by the Government rather its electric cars, wind turbines green building technology the list goes on. A lot of that Government money is from the oil industry taxs. Also we have given the green industry a pass on being environmentally sound. Look at what it takes to make an electric car, the short life of the batteries and the disposal of them nobody talks about that. Wind turbines very small returns for high cost of manufacturing and operation. Here in Anchorage they have to increase rate to cover the cost of a few wind turbines we have. Even after they subsidized the whole process manufacturing ,install, land lease and they still had to raise the rates. No to mention the birds that get killed by the rotors. They donít even get a second look because its green. If any other industry had the same problems as the green industry the government agencies would regulate and fine them out of business. The green industry need to clean it self-up and find a way to be economically viable. Then we all can take it seriously and start to wean ourselves off some the things that are doing harm to the environment. It will happen I am sure, but we need to stop pointing a finger at every other industry and make the green industry step up, be real, stop being prompt up and produce something that is economically feasible.
    I hope that English is your second language.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  14. #89
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    The essence of the problem is that the true costs of using fossil fuels is not included in the price. If it were, the green tech solutions would be more viable and progress faster.

    The unfortunate truth here is that the cheapest thing to do now is not the cheapest in the long run, and if we are truly ethical creatures we will accept more current cost for FF- based energy to save future generations from catastrophe. Because there is no doubt, if we keep doing what we are doing, and burn all the fossil fuels in the ground, mankind faces certain catastrophe. Not the end of the world or of us, but catastrophe nonetheless.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    I hope that English is your second language.
    sorry teacher i will try to do better next time so maybe you can understand it

  16. #91
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    exp18 - I agree with you only on your point of short lifetimes of batteries and the ramifications of their disposal. High tech batteries and/or supercapacitors will change quite a few things once they come into existence. I'm tired of reading articles promising the next big thing in batteries year after year, and having nothing functional in our hands yet. Imagine not dumping the better part of half our generated energy back into the ground, sounds pretty good to me.

    Speaking to MendonCycleSmith's point on sound business plans, Tesla Motors is going to pay off their government loan early very soon.

    EDIT: From the horse's mouth, nine years early.

    Also, for pete's sake man, use some paragraphs. No one wants to read a wall.
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  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    sorry teacher i will try to do better next time so maybe you can understand it
    If you want to be taken seriously in a reasonably intelligent discussion, you need to be able to write with reasonable intelligence.
    Riding Fat and still just as fast as I never was.

  18. #93
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    For good or ill, I think the fat bike forum has officially jumped the shark. I blame the Wal-Mart fat bike.
    You're so cute internet tough guy. Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  19. #94
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    One point that needs to be brought up/clarified:
    when examining past temperature and CO2 fluctuations, it is always the temperature that increases first, then increased CO2 follows. Historically, CO2 is not the driver, increases in CO2 are the result of warming.
    I personally believe that in my life science will show that the effect of CO2 is minimal to compared to the the effect of the nearest star, which we don't completely understand at the moment.

    ok, carry on. If I lived by the snow I'd have a fat bike...

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by crashtestdummy View Post
    If you want to be taken seriously in a reasonably intelligent discussion, you need to be able to write with reasonable intelligence.
    Yes we all can tell your intelligence oozes from every word i cannot wait for your next post i am sure i will all be in awe

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    For good or ill, I think the fat bike forum has officially jumped the shark. I blame the Wal-Mart fat bike.


    Dayum. The WalMoose will prove out to be good for Fat biking in general. That is if their riders survive.

  22. #97
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    I was on a quest to get a more fuel efficient car a few years back, settled on a VW TDI, because I couldn't stomach the whole battery thing either.

    They are nasty, and the ever increasing use of rare earth elements makes them an even bigger issue.

    Add to that, the largest supplies of Lithium are in China, and yeah, I can't get behind them any more than I'm forced to, IE: consumer electronics, the lights I use for night riding, etc.

    I can't find the original piece, but found the info on another forum.

    Technology like this, can revolutionize our way of doing things. If stuff like this gets the support it needs, we can really kiss batteries goodbye. Really? 2 years on a squirt of lighter fluid, with 700 times the output of standard batteries? Damn....

    Smallest Internal Combustion Engine - The Garage Journal Board

    On another topic, related to big oil, since we seem to like a good conspiracy and all, why are we being sold on energy independence, particularly the whole fracking bit, when the vast bulk of the energy produced, is being sold overseas?

    Isn't that "ours", as in, for us? I know, it can't be stored well, it leaks out of containment systems over time.

    My suggestion? Slow down extraction, to a rate that is slightly greater than consumption. Nice, sustained profits over a longer time frame, and we can really enjoy the "hundred plus years" of energy. As it is, sounds like we're getting snowed by a patriotic spin game, and the oil companies are making even yet still more $$$.

    Then, related to the fracking bit again, anyone paying attention to the fact that the Bush and Cheney families are busily buying up water rights all over the country? As Cheneys "former" company, Halliburton is busily running around, contaminating ground water with fracking chemicals at a blistering rate?

    The heck with climate change, we're getting screwed without even talking about CO2 levels.....
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    Yes we all can tell your intelligence oozes from every word i cannot wait for your next post i am sure i will all be in awe
    Proper spelling, punctuation, formatting etc shows you care enough about your topic and your audience to take the time to use it correctly. Why does that matter? Because you're trying to get them to see your side, or point, or what have you. If you don't care, why should they?

    Lacking that, one is basically saying, this doesn't matter to me, nor do you.

    You don't normally find academic papers, public policy statements, religious doctrines, what have you, written in such as way as to sound like the author didn't make it past 3rd grade.

    Getting cranky when someone suggests that it matters, just shows your lack of care for the topic at hand, all the more......
    This is a Pugs not some carbon wannabee pretzel wagon!!

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  24. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by brianb View Post
    One point that needs to be brought up/clarified:
    when examining past temperature and CO2 fluctuations, it is always the temperature that increases first, then increased CO2 follows. Historically, CO2 is not the driver, increases in CO2 are the result of warming.
    Got a source to back that up?

  25. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by exp18 View Post
    Yes we all can tell your intelligence oozes from every word i cannot wait for your next post i am sure i will all be in awe
    I think that CTD left with his tail between his legs after this well written response.

    To all you whiners complaining about where this thread has gone, a simple suggestion, don't read it. I'm enjoying it.
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