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  1. #1
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    OT: Biggest Dam Removal Ever

    Tomorrow is the day they start tearing the two dams down on the Elwah River. It will be interesting to see what transpires over the next decade or two with the river and it's ecosystem.
    I dig dirt!

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    why

    I see your from NV. Why the removal?

  3. #3
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    Their removing the dams because the local Indian tribe, fisherman( inc. commercial) and ecological minded peeps say it's best and after 20+ years of arguing in court they won.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    Their removing the dams because the local Indian tribe, fisherman( inc. commercial) and ecological minded peeps say it's best and after 20+ years of arguing in court they won.
    And Glines Canyon and Elwha dams only produce about 10-20% of the electricity that is used by the mill that they were originally built to power back in the early 20th century. The restored river will be a bigger economic generator for Port Angeles and the area -with rafting, kayaking, hobby fishing, general tourism and commercial fishing- than the dams are currently, and neither dam has fish ladders, thus their operating licenses were not renewed. It'll take years for the sediments in the river to settle out and reform a natural river channel and ecosystem, but when the project is finished, the Elwha will run wild from the summits of Olympic National Park to the Puget Sound and reinvigorate the salmon fishery and the river ecosystem.

  5. #5
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    Hmmm, sounds fishy...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Hmmm, sounds fishy...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheepo5669 View Post
    Hmmm, sounds fishy...
    Well I'll be dam!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    but when the project is finished, the Elwha will run wild from the summits of Olympic National Park to the Puget Sound and reinvigorate the salmon fishery and the river ecosystem.
    Sounds good to me!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    It will be interesting to see what transpires over the next decade or two with the river and it's ecosystem.
    I wonder what happened to the river and it's ecosystem within the decade or two right after they built up the dam? Bet it changed up quite a bit, eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marpilli View Post
    I wonder what happened to the river and it's ecosystem within the decade or two right after they built up the dam? Bet it changed up quite a bit, eh?
    Ya think Forrest...

    My inquiry is more about if it'll change as predicted by all those supposedly in the know or ??? ... you know since they've been right about so many other environmental/ecological issues in the past
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    Forrest? Really?

    I'm not the one worried about the enviomental and ecological impact of removing a man made dam and letting a river return to it's natural state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    Ya think Forrest...

    My inquiry is more about if it'll change as predicted by all those supposedly in the know or ??? ... you know since they've been right about so many other environmental/ecological issues in the past
    No dams even close to this large have ever been removed, anywhere. We DO KNOW all about the negative ecological impacts of building them in the first place and the scientists and engineers involved make it clear that they don't know EXACTLY how the process will unfold, but they all agree that the river, and the overall area, will be healthier and more diverse after the dams are removed.

    Are you privy to some special knowledge that proves that human engineering (and human hubris) is so much better than nature? Since I'm one of the "they" that you apparently dislike, please prove to me, and my fellow "in the know" types, how wrong we've been all these years.

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    First off they don't ALL agree it will be better.
    Many fish experts(scientists) are worried about the effects of the cross breeding between hatchery and wild fish... which will happen. The scientists are not sure how all the sediment that has been trapped behind the damns will effect downstream and the delta (thats a pretty big unknown if you ask me).
    I agree we effed up originally by building the damns in the first place...
    But now the question is how bad will we eff it up trying to fix it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    First off they don't ALL agree it will be better.
    Many fish experts(scientists) are worried about the effects of the cross breeding between hatchery and wild fish... which will happen. The scientists are not sure how all the sediment that has been trapped behind the damns will effect downstream and the delta (that's a pretty big unknown if you ask me).
    I agree we effed up originally by building the damns in the first place...
    But now the question is how bad will we eff it up trying to fix it.
    When you let nature go and let it do it's thing, Its surprisingly resilient and can recover if we just keep our toes out of the water. Take a look at Mnt. St. Helens. Everyone thought the place was going to be a waste land. Look at it now, its thriving with very little human intervention. .
    Granted building the dam was a bad idea in terms of the environment, but letting the water flow naturally will be better in the long term. The place will look like sh*t shortly afterwords, but give it time and it will heal

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    just remember to take all the dam pictures you want.

    J-

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    Yeah, because soon that dam thing will be gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    First off they don't ALL agree it will be better.
    Many fish experts(scientists) are worried about the effects of the cross breeding between hatchery and wild fish... which will happen. The scientists are not sure how all the sediment that has been trapped behind the damns will effect downstream and the delta (thats a pretty big unknown if you ask me).
    I agree we effed up originally by building the damns in the first place...
    But now the question is how bad will we eff it up trying to fix it.
    There aren't any new worries about hatchery fish breeding with wild fish as that is something that does already occur in all fisheries. It doesn't matter where the hatchery is (or are) since the only way to address the issue would be to close ALL hatcheries everywhere, which is not going to happen. For the Elwha in particular, it won't happen because of the politics of this particular project, namely the Lower Elwha Klallam tribe (see below).

    One worry about the Elwha is about non-native fish being stocked in the river from the hatchery. This issue is purely political as the Lower Elwha Klallam tribe wants to stock non-native cutthroat trout so that they have something to catch while they wait the 5 or more years for the sediment load to re-distrubute and sizable wild salmon to start running again. The tribe is using their political clout to force the issue against the recommendations of the "in the know" types...

    As for sediment, "they" know generally what will happen and how best to mitigate the impact of the tons of sediment that fill Aldwell and Mills reservoirs, but as every river system is different, the exact impacts cannot be predicted. So there aren't any big "unknowns," just little ones. Short of a once in a millennium rain/flood event (which would probably cause a disastrous over-topping of the dams anyway if they were still in place) the sediment mitigation plan should work well. Better yet, it is flexible and fluid enough to be altered should unexpected problems arise. Best case scenario, all of the sediment will have been distributed where is should be, naturally, in 5 years and the river flow regimes will work the way that nature intended. Perhaps we should leave things as they are because those "in the know" aren't omnipotent...

    FInd out specifics here: Welcome to the Elwha Watershed Information Resource | Elwha Watershed Information Resource
    Last edited by huntermos; 09-19-2011 at 05:11 PM. Reason: Link for more info

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    To the anonymous "repper' that so cleverly commented "dooooosh," take a look in the mirror...

    Not the first time someone neg repped me for knowing what I'm talking about, probably not the last as there are a few people out there are of the opinion that knowledge and expertise in a subject is lame. I guess ignorance is bliss. At least I don't pretend to know something when I don't. If you're calling me a "dooooosh" because I take exception to a comment that infers that those that work on these issues are wrong and continually F things up, I'm not one to give that attitude a pass. It's bad enough in this political climate that anyone that cares about environmental issues, or the scientific method for that matter, is ridiculed, called a liar and worse.

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    this was a hot topic in my wildlife ecology class.

    The natural ecosystem that was ubrupted after the building of the dam, will eventually go back to its natural state. Many Politicians are to stupid to understand how this happens. But it does happen.

    As for the sediment....Its going to make farming incredible somewhere down the line.

    But where the negatives are, there will be equal positives some where else

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    To the anonymous "repper' that so cleverly commented "dooooosh," take a look in the mirror...
    Hahahaha....
    Maybe they(anonymous) were right...
    Let's see, you've neg repped me twice(anonymously) .... have you not? So pot me kettle?
    I'm not defending man at all in this ... Actually the opposite, my position is we always eff it up. We effed it up then and we'll eff it up now.
    The only thing constant about science is that it's constantly changing... what they think they know today as correct we will find tomorrow as incorrect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    Hahahaha....
    Maybe they(anonymous) were right...
    Let's see, you've neg repped me twice(anonymously) .... have you not? So pot me kettle?
    I'm not defending man at all in this ... Actually the opposite, my position is we always eff it up. We effed it up then and we'll eff it up now.
    The only thing constant about science is that it's constantly changing... what they think they know today as correct we will find tomorrow as incorrect.
    Yep, you know plutos not really a planet, so anything is possible.
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    I wouldn't mind them tearing one down once in a while when appropriate if I thought we were still a culture capable of building one when necessary and appropriate.

  23. #23
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    Glen Canyon is next.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Are you privy to some special knowledge that proves that human engineering (and human hubris) is so much better than nature?
    I have no comment on whether the dam should be removed or not.

    But.... if man is an animal, isn't anything he does 'natural' for that animal.

    Birds build nests, coyotes build dens, and beavers build dams. All have some impact on the environment. If those are natural, why not man dams? We are just modifying the environment to improve our situation like every other animal on the planet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    I have no comment on whether the dam should be removed or not.

    But.... if man is an animal, isn't anything he does 'natural' for that animal.

    Birds build nests, coyotes build dens, and beavers build dams. All have some impact on the environment. If those are natural, why not man dams? We are just modifying the environment to improve our situation like every other animal on the planet.
    ^Never looked at it that way, very interesting perspective.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Glen Canyon is next.
    Your hope or is there some reality to this? I'd guess that Page would cease to exist without Lake Powell, although I suppose if there was still access to the canyon the float trip potential would be huge. I talked to a guy once that floated the river with a Boy Scout troop the year before it was built and he raved about its beauty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    Hahahaha....
    Maybe they(anonymous) were right...
    Let's see, you've neg repped me twice(anonymously) .... have you not? So pot me kettle?
    I'm not defending man at all in this ... Actually the opposite, my position is we always eff it up. We effed it up then and we'll eff it up now.
    The only thing constant about science is that it's constantly changing... what they think they know today as correct we will find tomorrow as incorrect.
    Yup, Fox News will tell us any day now that the Theory of Gravity is wrong and that it's actually little mini vacuums (that run on our endless supply of oil) inside the planet (which will turn out to be flat and hollow after all) that keep us all from flying into space! You clearly don't understand science or the scientific method. Despite the assault on reason, science and reality by Faux News, the supporters of American theocracy and the Tea Party types, science is not some kind of black art full of lies and deceit. Yes, there will be some negative externalities in the very short-term from the removal of Elwha and Glines dams, but within a decade -or less- the river and associated ecosystems will be much healthier than they are currently. There are those, like the people working on the Elwha project, that seek to rectify past mistakes, make our world a little healthier and find ways -often through science- to allow us to continue to enjoy a healthy environment both now and for future generations. You could support them and be part of better future, but you'd rather sit back and spew pessimism.

    BTW, I don't use the "rep" function, positive or negative and never have. If I have something to say to someone, I say it publicly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dead_dog_canyon View Post
    I have no comment on whether the dam should be removed or not.

    But.... if man is an animal, isn't anything he does 'natural' for that animal.

    Birds build nests, coyotes build dens, and beavers build dams. All have some impact on the environment. If those are natural, why not man dams? We are just modifying the environment to improve our situation like every other animal on the planet.
    The human animal goes so far beyond what any other animal does that this comparison is not applicable, although it makes for a great philosophical debate. My view is that as a species, we exert a control over our collective, and individual destinies that no other animal enjoys by being able to use, and constantly invent, tools that give us a greater advantage over our environment and other species. Many of these inventions are of compounds that have never existed in nature and others are millions of times more powerful than anything in nature. These alone are enough to differentiate us from any other animal and the impacts that we, as one species, have on every ecosystem on the planet are cumulatively more than all other animals on the planet. Furthermore, there are almost 7 billion of us (and we only first tipped 1 billion less then 200 years ago), far more than any other large animal on the planet. Our tool use and scientific knowledge have kept the biological checks and balances that should keep our population "sustainable" from working. More than a few sci-fi books and films have portrayed humans is as more of a virus or a cancer than just another animal species, and there is some merit to that idea.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrm View Post
    Glen Canyon is next.
    If the federal government keeps putting out these piss poor fish recovery plans for the Columbia basin, judge James Redding may decide the Columbia River is next!

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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post
    Yup, Fox News will tell us any day now that the Theory of Gravity is wrong and that it's actually little mini vacuums (that run on our endless supply of oil) inside the planet (which will turn out to be flat and hollow after all) that keep us all from flying into space! You clearly don't understand science or the scientific method. Despite the assault on reason, science and reality by Faux News, the supporters of American theocracy and the Tea Party types, science is not some kind of black art full of lies and deceit. Yes, there will be some negative externalities in the very short-term from the removal of Elwha and Glines dams, but within a decade -or less- the river and associated ecosystems will be much healthier than they are currently. There are those, like the people working on the Elwha project, that seek to rectify past mistakes, make our world a little healthier and find ways -often through science- to allow us to continue to enjoy a healthy environment both now and for future generations. You could support them and be part of better future, but you'd rather sit back and spew pessimism.

    BTW, I don't use the "rep" function, positive or negative and never have. If I have something to say to someone, I say it publicly.
    Yep, guess your right, I understand it about as much as you understand history.
    ...and I'd bet my next paycheck your a lil more familiar with the neg rep button then your admitting...
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    There's a large school of Archeology and Anthropology that now believes that early humans had much greater control over their environment than previously believed. There's lots of evidence that both the Incas and Aztecs build networks of damns, aqueducts, and waterways that covered millions of acres and dramatically altered the landscape of early South America. When the civilization disappeared so did these waterways. They were reclaimed so thoroughly that we have only just discovered them in the last few years. Atlantis, by Plato's description, was one of the most grand cities of the ancient world. Just a few months ago a team of scientists found an entirely new site in a mud flat in southern Spain that is almost certainly Atlantis. It was covered by silt after a tsunami. It was so well reclaimed that we didn't even notice it till now. On a long enough timeline everything will recover. None of us will really get to see the results in our lifetime. That doesn't mean we don't have a responsibility to take action. Given a choice between the way things were and the way we made them nature usually likes it's way better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    Yep, guess your right, I understand it about as much as you understand history.
    History of what? If you are implying that environmental restoration is always a failure, you are wrong. Here are just a few success stories:

    The Road to Recovery: 100 Success Stories for Endangered Species Day 2006

    Hiteman Leather Co. - NYS Dept. of Environmental Conservation

    Fish and wildlife success stories - John Day River

    Or these: Environmental restoration: articles and links | ManagingWholes.com

    And this one is where the famous 70's “crying Indian” anti-pollution ad was filmed: Hackensack Riverkeeper : History of the Hackensack

    There are thousands of more like them, but being that you are such a pessimist, it is unlikely that they'd dissuade your negative views about those of us that work to mitigate the damage to our shared environment.

    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    ...and I'd bet my next paycheck your a lil more familiar with the neg rep button then your admitting...
    Cute, calling me a liar. Now that is the hallmark of a "dooooosh..." I'd take that bet and you would be out that paycheck.

  33. #33
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    I didn't imply anything you are the one jumping to conclusions...
    ...and if you think scientists haven't made huge errors in the past that the masses have takin to the bank as gold... http://science.discovery.com/top-ten...-mistakes.html

    http://www.newscientist.com/mobile/a...bly-wrong.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lted-2035.html

    http://www.sciencenews.org/view/feat...Are,_Its_Wrong
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by huntermos View Post

    ...

    Cute, calling me a liar. Now that is the hallmark of a "dooooosh..." I'd take that bet and you would be out that paycheck.
    So says you
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    You got neg. rep. from me because "Forrest Gump" is one of my favorite movies and should not be included in your derogatory posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    You got neg. rep. from me because "Forrest Gump" is one of my favorite movies and should not be included in your derogatory posts.
    Ummmm ,OK... sorry for slamming your fictional hero... won't happen again
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    this damn thread is a mess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaFred View Post
    I didn't imply anything you are the one jumping to conclusions...
    ...and if you think scientists haven't made huge errors in the past that the masses have takin to the bank as gold...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Troll View Post
    this damn thread is a mess.
    It's not the whole thread, it's ImaFred. He was the one who came out and insulted posters for no reason. ImaFred must be a complete idiot to post a thread and start insulting people who are contributing to it. Especially huntermos, who has provided more useful background information than everyone else combined here.

    ImaFred, grow up and stop being so defensive. You didn't start to sound like an idiot until you insulted other people out of the blue. We don't need that on these forums.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    It's not the whole thread, it's ImaFred. He was the one who came out and insulted posters for no reason. ImaFred must be a complete idiot to post a thread and start insulting people who are contributing to it. Especially huntermos, who has provided more useful background information than everyone else combined here.

    ImaFred, grow up and stop being so defensive. You didn't start to sound like an idiot until you insulted other people out of the blue. We don't need that on these forums.




    /\ Truth.

  41. #41
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    this thread is now binned.

    name calling needs to stop.

    thank you,
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtmartino View Post
    It's not the whole thread, it's ImaFred. He was the one who came out and insulted posters for no reason. ImaFred must be a complete idiot to post a thread and start insulting people who are contributing to it. Especially huntermos, who has provided more useful background information than everyone else combined here.

    ImaFred, grow up and stop being so defensive. You didn't start to sound like an idiot until you insulted other people out of the blue. We don't need that on these forums.
    Because I said " ya think forrest" ...that's the only name calling I did...wow, like I already said above I won't use a fictional hero to be sarcastic to the poster above who was sarcastic towards my inquiry/op FIRST... again SORRY
    I also agree huntermos is "one" of the only ones on this thread who has actually replied with answers... maybe different than mine but a answer none the less.
    I didn't call anyone a doooosh in this thread and got two negs for doing so and two for the Forrest comment and two because I'm an idiot( I guess )... Yet I'm the pessimist and negative one because I question what were(their) doing... They were wrong once, theyll be wrong again.... But I guess we should all just listen, stfu and go along with it.
    Also "J" last I checked calling someone a idiot IS calling someone a name so please be hypocritical somewhere else
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    Sorry ImaFred, you're not an idiot. You just don't know how to play nice with others.

    Binned. Good talk.

  44. #44
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    Back on topic...
    I'm with dead_dog_canyon on this. Humans are a living creature on this earth, just like every other creature here. If we build dams to let our species thrive then that's what we should do. If we feel we don't need the dam anymore, then we should tear it down. Now I'm not saying we shouldnt be concerened about the environment by any means, because we have the capacity to help protect it and make it a better place for all animals, but i DON'T think we should stop infrastructure projects like dams or whatnot because it might hurt the fish, or birds, or beavers, or grasshoppers, or plants...my take on it is if your species is not strong enough to adapt to the change then maybe your species is meant to be endangered, OURS INCLUDED! That's natural selection.

  45. #45
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    I like dams. We should have more of them.

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    some comedy i found on another site:

    Dam Beaver and the Government..
    This is an actual letter sent to a man named Ryan DeVries regarding a pond on his property. It was sent by the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Quality, State of Pennsylvania This guy's response is hilarious, but read The State's letter before you get to the response letter. Response in next post..

    State of Pennsylvania 's letter to Mr. DeVries:

    SUBJECT: DEQ
    File No.97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec 20; Lycoming County

    Dear Mr. DeVries:

    It has come to the attention of the Department of Environmental Quality that there has been recent unauthorized activity on the above referenced parcel of property. You have been certified as the legal landowner and/or contractor who did the following unauthorized activity:

    Construction and maintenance of two wood debris dams across the outlet stream of Spring Pond.

    A permit must be issued prior to the start of this type of activity.. A review of the Department's files shows that no permits have been issued Therefore, the Department has determined that this activity is in violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.

    The Department has been informed that one or both of the dams partially failed during a recent rain event, causing debris and flooding at downstream locations.. We find that dams of this nature are inherently hazardous and cannot be permitted. The Department therefore orders you to cease and desist all activities at this location, and to restore the stream to a free-flow condition by removing all wood and brush forming the dams from the stream channel. All restoration work shall be completed no later than January 31, 2010.

    Please notify this office when the restoration has been completed so that a follow-up site inspection may be scheduled by our staff. Failure to comply with this request or any further unauthorized activity on the site may result in this case being referred for elevated enforcement action..

    We anticipate and would appreciate your full cooperation in this matter. Please feel free to contact me at this office if you have any questions.

    Sincerely,
    David L. Price
    District Representative and Water Management Division.
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  47. #47
    fresh fish in stock...... SuperModerator
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    response:

    Re: DEQ File
    No.. 97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec. 20; Lycoming County

    Dear Mr..Price,

    Your certified letter dated 11/17/09 has been handed to me. I am the legal landowner but not the Contractor at 2088 Dagget Lane , Trout Run, Pennsylvania

    A couple of beavers are in the (State unauthorized) process of constructing and maintaining two wood 'debris' dams across the outlet stream of my Spring Pond. While I did not pay for, authorize, nor supervise their dam project, I think they would be highly offended that you call their skillful use of natures building materials 'debris.'

    I would like to challenge your department to attempt to emulate their dam project any time and/or any place you choose. I believe I can safely state there is no way you could ever match their dam skills, their dam resourcefulness, their dam ingenuity, their dam persistence, their dam determination and/or their dam work ethic.




    These are the beavers/contractors you are seeking. As to your request, I do not think the beavers are aware that they must first fill out a dam permit prior to the start of this type of dam activity.

    My first dam question to you is:
    (1) Are you trying to discriminate against my Spring Pond Beavers, or
    (2) do you require all beavers throughout this State to conform to said dam request?

    If you are not discriminating against these particular beavers, through the Freedom of Information Act, I request completed copies of all those other applicable beaver dam permits that have been issued. (Perhaps we will see if there really is a dam violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.)

    I have several dam concerns. My first dam concern is, aren't the beavers entitled to legal representation? The Spring Pond Beavers are financially destitute and are unable to pay for said representation -- so the State will have to provide them with a dam lawyer.

    The Department's dam concern that either one or both of the dams failed during a recent rain event, causing flooding, is proof that this is a natural occurrence, which the Department is required to protect. In other words, we should leave the Spring Pond Beavers alone rather than harassing them and calling them dam names.

    If you want the damed stream 'restored' to a dam free-flow condition please contact the beavers -- but if you are going to arrest them, they obviously did not pay any attention to your dam letter, they being unable to read English.

    In my humble opinion, the Spring Pond Beavers have a right to build their unauthorized dams as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green and water flows downstream. They have more dam rights than I do to live and enjoy Spring Pond. If the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Protection lives up to its name, it should protect the natural resources (Beavers) and the environment (Beavers' Dams).

    So, as far as the beavers and I are concerned, this dam case can be referred for more elevated enforcement action right now. Why wait until 1/31/2010? The Spring Pond Beavers may be under the dam ice by then and there will be no way for you or your dam staff to contact/harass them.

    In conclusion, I would like to bring to your attention to a real environmental quality (health) problem in the area. It is the bears! Bears are actually defecating in our woods. I definitely believe you should be persecuting the defecating bears and leave the beavers alone. If you are going to investigate the beaver dam, watch your dam step! The bears are not careful where they dump!

    Being unable to comply with your dam request, and being unable to contact you on your dam answering machine, I am sending this response to your dam office.

    THANK YOU,


    RYAN DEVRIES & THE DAM BEAVERS
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  48. #48
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    response:
    According to Snopes, the actual homeowner was Stephen L. Tvedten, and the actual complaint was that he kept "maintaining" the dam after beavers left (or had been killed by the downstream landowner).

    Still funny.

  49. #49
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    ^^that is dam funny!!

  50. #50
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    Damned if you do damned if you dont
    I dig dirt!

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