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  1. #1
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    NSA Wiretapping and more...

    Are we ready to start giving some credibility to some 'conspiracy theorists'?

    It really sucks when some people are trying to blow a whistle - and that whistle is dismissed.

    I, myself, have been dismissed to many conspiracies - one one topic was about Fusion Centers.
    Many thought nothing of it mostly - 'yeah, so what', 'huh?', 'get more foil'.


    As I'm sure you know now, the gov't of the US has been illegally (they say it's legal, the Constitution says it's not) scooping data transmissions - cell phone, facebook, yahoo, etc

    When will anyone start to give a fcuk to what 'nutjobs' are warning about??
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  2. #2
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    here's an eye-opening post on what may be building in US
    via reddit

    quote=617191 6 hours ago*

    I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

    1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

    Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

    With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

    2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, **** it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

    3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.

    You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

    4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "**** you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a ****ing wound on my leg?"

    "Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

    Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

    You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

    This all happened in the country where I live.

    You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

    Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

    You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?

    Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?

    I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

    I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.
    /quote
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  3. #3
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    here's a timeline from EFF, though (of course) it is far more extensive than this simple graph

    https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying/timeline
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  4. #4
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    All I want to say is the first person to turn this into a Bush vs. Obama thing or a Left vs. Right thing is a rotten egged d-bag.

    Oh, and Highdell, there's been a number of conspiracy theories coming through the OC. Some are crazy, some not so much. This one, not so much. But I'm pretty sure everybody in here knew, or at least was pretty sure, the government was watching in on us. The only thing that baffles me is why the American public doesn't/didn't/don't care. Are we that afraid of terrorists?
    You're so cute internet tough guy. Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  5. #5
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    NSA Wiretapping and more...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slow Danger View Post
    The only thing that baffles me is why the American public doesn't/didn't/don't care. Are we that afraid of terrorists?
    We have been taught to be that afraid of terrorists. After 9-11 the government told us that terrorists were behind every shadow.

    And I still don't think the American populace really cares. There is no big uproar except in the media and a few libertarians.


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  6. #6
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    ^^^ And with the Patriot (hahah wtf) Act - We are ALL, potential terrorists - and therefore subject to prosecution outside of Due Process.

    Have too much food? Terrorist
    I shlt you not non-believers - look it up.
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    We have been taught to be that afraid of terrorists. After 9-11 the government told us that terrorists were behind every shadow.
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    True dat. But the American people also trained politicians to believe that attacks on their watch would be equated to guilt by association/malice/malfeasance. Whatever one might believe about attempts to control, one can't dismiss that these politicians ore more afraid of an attack on their watch than anything else.
    Last edited by Slow Danger; 06-07-2013 at 11:25 PM.
    You're so cute internet tough guy. Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  8. #8
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    mad as hell
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  9. #9
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    ^^ Good vid
    Honestly... ahh I give up

  10. #10
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    The web is awash with articles like the following, which covers ground of our first few posts here:

    America the passive - Salon.com

    Strangely, one guy I admire a great deal, David Simon, writer/creator of the HBO television series The Wire, doesn't think wiretapping is such a big deal. If you've seen the television series, it's about tapping phones to get info. on drug dealers. Simon claims that the government is so buried in work, like the cops on the tv show, that there's little or no chance that they even look at a small fraction of the phone/online interaction that actually includes illegal activity. I think he's wrong, but interested folks should read about it:

    David Simon: NSA intercepts with PRISM and other programs not a big deal.
    Last edited by Slow Danger; 06-08-2013 at 11:43 AM.
    You're so cute internet tough guy. Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    While I have been historically a republican-libertarian and a Christian, here is a video by a liberal leaning atheist which sums it up well:

    Warning NSFW, unless you work for yourself:

    Impeach Obama - YouTube
    One has to assume posting this particular video link, out of all the potential links floating about the net, is an attempt at humor. And it is pretty funny. The link should be called "Trekkie in a batman t-shirt rants about freedom".
    You're so cute internet tough guy. Noogie...Noogie...Noogie.

  12. #12
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    There's no easy answers. Is privacy more important than safety? Is the constitution still relevant in modern times? Is our constitutional republic still working as it should? Woking at all? Working for who?
    A few things seem clear to me
    -with more and more people competing over the same resources it doesn't end well
    -our form of government that was/is supposed to serve us is at a tipping point
    -it must/will get worse before people band together once again, in an attempt to make a change for the better.
    If anyone thinks surveillance by OUR government of the general public started after or because of 9/11, or that this latest nsa bs isn't just the tip of the iceberg, or if a system that's designed to feed itself isn't doing just that, I would question your sanity.
    The fact is that big money and power has controlled the world since there was money and power. We, America, started a revolution and a new government to escape control and greed, and here we are again.

    Oh, and it's not "wiretapping", it's metadata, yeah right.
    Last edited by theMeat; 06-08-2013 at 05:33 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Nothing new here, our gubmint has trampled our civil liberties for generations. I just find highly implausible that all these abuses that are being brought to light lately are localized anomalies that the administration has no knowledge of.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirty $anchez View Post
    Nothing new here, our gubmint has trampled our civil liberties for generations. I just find highly implausible that all these abuses that are being brought to light lately are localized anomalies that the administration has no knowledge of.
    It does seem to be by design.



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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by highdelll View Post
    ^^^ And with the Patriot (hahah wtf) Act - We are ALL, potential terrorists - and therefore subject to prosecution outside of Due Process.

    The Patriot Act was/is a bit different. The Patriot Act focused on communication from the states to overseas areas of concern to combat terrorism. This however is much different. This is targeting US civilians for anything they feel they want to find out. It's a bit scary and unerving if you ask me.
    "We can always find excuses if we want to find them, but if we really want to do something, we have to just go."

  16. #16
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    Bottom Line: Liberties within Media & their Media informants versus Government function -- Bank on it. Much too easy to assume the easy-read version.
    I like Sand -- I don't like Witches.

  17. #17
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    The Patriot Act is a farse, the name alone should tell you that. If that's what we do know about it's troubling to think of what we don't.
    Just a few short years ago if you brought up Project Echelon you were dismissed as a foil wearing freak.
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    The Patriot Act is a farse, the name alone should tell you that. If that's what we do know about it's troubling to think of what we don't.
    Just a few short years ago if you brought up Project Echelon you were dismissed as a foil wearing freak.
    Having had to search the Internet to learn of ECHELON, these are all part of the infrastructure of Internet Society security. Not much more than an enormous Voting Computer looking for a lever that's been pulled.
    Going and introducing the concept into conversation is a non-issue; anyone who would would certainly display some type of dissatisfaction with their immediate surroundings, clue-in to a lack of attention upon something or being in a conditioned-state.

    For example look at Highdelll over here...
    I like Sand -- I don't like Witches.

  19. #19
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    Oh god! I opened this link!!!! are they watching me now too!!??

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

    Its ok, our own government was founded with the understanding that we are allowed to legally alter or abolish it.

    Go ahead, ill watch.
    "Bigring, that's deep. ...Well, I suspect it is. I didn't read it."

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haint View Post
    Having had to search the Internet to learn of ECHELON, these are all part of the infrastructure of Internet Society security. Not much more than an enormous Voting Computer looking for a lever that's been pulled.
    Going and introducing the concept into conversation is a non-issue; anyone who would would certainly display some type of dissatisfaction with their immediate surroundings, clue-in to a lack of attention upon something or being in a conditioned-state.

    For example look at Highdelll over here...
    My point was only that a few years ago that it was dismissed as conspiracy theory. Most people would quote the constitution and/or be convinced that their gov wouldn't do such a thing, especially in secret. Now it's a matter of fact to the point were it's considered no big deal, "not much more than" a what?
    Like frogs slowly warming upon the stove.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRingGrinder View Post
    Go ahead, ill watch.
    I was kind of hoping for a bit more active participation, as change is effected.

    The problem is, it has been altered ... See my previous
    IMHO, it's become a Limited Republic in name only.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigRingGrinder View Post
    Oh god! I opened this link!!!! are they watching me now too!!??

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. —That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, —That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

    Its ok, our own government was founded with the understanding that we are allowed to legally alter or abolish it.

    Go ahead, ill watch.



    Within the next year there will be people demonstrating in the streets. The reports of the last couple of weeks are but the tip of the iceberg, much more to come.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    My point was only that a few years ago that it was dismissed as conspiracy theory. Most people would quote the constitution and/or be convinced that their gov wouldn't do such a thing, especially in secret. Now it's a matter of fact to the point were it's considered no big deal, "not much more than" a what?
    Like frogs slowly warming upon the stove.
    Oh, I had gotten your grasp - it is just the sheer elementary of how this has come to be a topic these past few days. The News Media. There is so much compartmentalization they do and choose to do that it is impossible not to be surprised the FBI or NSA has been doing estimates. In fact the very Constitutional Rights afforded to each of us and all of us also maintain the ever-churning Media Machine.

    Lever - meet Hand (and impulse).
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikeabuser View Post
    I was kind of hoping for a bit more active participation, as change is effected.
    Politicians are corrupt. Federal laws are mires of red tape requiring years of law school to navigate. Funding of political campaigns by big money companies ensure the stupid rich remain stupid rich. Hell, i read that the united states spends more than double what the drug lords make in our "war on drugs". With the world standard of currency going away from the american dollar, our practice of printing more money to pay our debts will no longer work. There is a lota jacked stuff going on and YES, its going to get worse. I do not have my head buried in the ground oblivious to the corruption and blind stupidity of the way our government is being run.

    But...

    My family and i are alive and well. I do not fear for my loved one's lives on a daily basis. We do not need to check in with each other to make sure we made it through another day.

    The very fact that this thread exists proves that we still hold on to liberty. Conservative and liberal news media exists. Conspiracy theories are published daily and the authors are not hauled off to prison. I can give voice to government criticism in a public place with out fearing for my loved one's safety.

    I can drink, fvck, surf, and ride my bike. I can watch movies, read books, and go to sporting events. Sure my life would be better if i was filthy rich, but overall i am happy and cant think of any where else in the world i would rather live.

    When my life liberty and pursuit of happiness are being affected, i will raise my voice. As the government crosses that line more and more people will raise their voices. Change will come eventually, but like the serenity prayer preaches... In the meantime i will accept the things i can not change.
    "Bigring, that's deep. ...Well, I suspect it is. I didn't read it."

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by daves4mtb View Post
    Time to get busy then!
    When.

    Key word.
    "Bigring, that's deep. ...Well, I suspect it is. I didn't read it."

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