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  1. #1
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    Lardification Of America --

    Lardification . . .

    The federal agencies who keep track of this stuff in the US just released this item:

    In 1985 no state in the union had a 20% portion of their population who was clinically obese. Clinically Obese is defined as a BMI (Body Mass Index) above 30.

    Body mass index is defined as the individual's body weight divided by the square of his or her height.

    Now, in 2011, only one state has less than 20% of their population who is clinically obese. That state is Colorado at 19.88%.

    Maximum weight capacity on household bathroom scales used to be 250 lbs. -- back in 1975. Then it went to 300 lbs. Currently, standard max. capacity for household bathroom scales is 400 lbs.

    Heart disease, due largely to being overweight, is the number one cause of death in the US, followed closely by smoking.

    -- discuss . . .
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  2. #2
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    I work at a restaurant in Vegas and am constantly disgusted by our patrons. One time I had a guy sit down at my table, the guy was easily over 300lbs, he was wheezing and out of breath. He says to me "im really thirsty can you please get me a banana milkshake". I went into the kitchen and nearly puked from laughing so much. Sad state of affairs though with this country for sure.

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    It was inevitable, (as with many other issues that this country faces) given our immense wealth and overabundance of everything.

    I find that being disgusted by overweight people accomplishes nothing though.

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    Heaven forbid you actually discuss this in public. The mere topic of obesity ranks up there with politics and religion as a taboo conversation to have.

    Having so many fatties lumbering around has made it socially acceptable to be eat yourself to death.

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    shocking...but I've got to say BMI is kind of BS as far as assessing a person's fitness

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post
    shocking...but I've got to say BMI is kind of BS as far as assessing a person's fitness
    Except for sumo wrestling, I think it is a pretty good measure. Look at people that are at the "top of their game" in sports and competition. I think you'll find the results fairly consistant. I thought I was just a big "bigger" and thicker than most, not fat, able to ride many hours and power up crazy climbs, but now I'm nearly 50lbs lighter and I can do even more amazing stuff. It made a huge difference.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  7. #7
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    was your BMI above 30 before?

    so does that mean 80% of Colorado is "at the top of their game"

  8. #8
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    Interesting, it has become increasingly obvious but I just wonder where they get this info? Myself, my family or anyone I know for that matter has never been tested for body fat content?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pathogenic View Post
    Having so many fatties lumbering around has made it socially acceptable to be eat yourself to death.
    Using pejorative language accomplishes nothing. Just as calling gay people "faggots" and African American people "n******," calling overweight people "fatties" is pointless, counterproductive and, quite frankly, not acceptable in a society that preaches equality and justice for all.

    And yes, it has become somewhat "socially acceptable to eat [oneself] to death," however that is not due to "having so many fatties lumbering around." Having so many "fatties" in this society is merely a symptom of the social acceptability to "eat [oneself] to death."

  10. #10
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    Sheeeesh, thats what's wrong with this country today, nobody can take an insult anymore. Everybody's so damn sensitive, "Hit em with your purse Alice!!!"

  11. #11
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    I see plenty of over weight people in Denver. But its still far fewer then my native Chicago. In my experience there are far fewer over weight people in ski towns where an active lifestyle predominates.

    At the hospital where I work in the IT department we were asked to stop referring to the laptops nurses use as COWs (computers on wheels) because it could offend a patient if you were over heard saying something like, "Boy that COW is being a pain in the a**."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    I see plenty of over weight people in Denver. But its still far fewer then my native Chicago. In my experience there are far fewer over weight people in ski towns where an active lifestyle predominates.

    At the hospital where I work in the IT department we were asked to stop referring to the laptops nurses use as COWs (computers on wheels) because it could offend a patient if you were over heard saying something like, "Boy that COW is being a pain in the a**."
    lol, you could call them Computers on Castors (CoCs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post
    shocking...but I've got to say BMI is kind of BS as far as assessing a person's fitness
    But then again, since it's not meant to asses fitness who really cares if it's "BS as far as assessing a person's fitness"?

    BMI is based on averages, to give you a baseline to know that you probably need to assess your body composition.

    If you have a high BMI because you're an elite athlete with a lot of lean muscle . . . fine. But if you're 50% body fat, you might want to make some lifestyle changes.

    The problem is, especially now that in U.S. society being overweight is becoming the norm, many people who have high body fat do not perceive themselves as being overweight. Calculating BMI is easy, so if you have a BMI over 30 you have something concrete to tell you that you need an honest assessment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanizedDNA View Post
    Sheeeesh, thats what's wrong with this country today, nobody can take an insult anymore. Everybody's so damn sensitive, "Hit em with your purse Alice!!!"
    I can take an insult. I just laugh 'em off. What I am saying is that it's really just an unnecessary waste of energy to insult people. It accomplishes literally nothing. It's an apathetic response to a problem. That is what is wrong with this country.

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    I look around here in Mass and can't believe we're a lean state. I think mass was ranked 47 fattest

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    Obviously, there are going to be a lot more overweight people if roughly 1/3 of the population is obese. One would expect that at least 1/3, although I would bet it is slightly higher, of people are overweight. I would expect that 25-27% of people are actually at an ideal weight. BMI is an ok tool to determine obesity. I would agree that it probably isn't suited for NFL players, or other elite, strength based athletes.

    If we are going to overcome this issue, there are many things that need to be addressed. First, it is something that needs to be publicly addressed. The is a large cost associated with obesity in human and fiscal terms. However, there is a fine line here. Did anyone see the Yoplait commercial with the blonde girl who was debating about eating a slice of cheesecake? It was basically pulled since it promoted the thinking associated with having an eating disorder, which was the justification about why it is ok to eat something, or ways to compensate when you eat something "bad."

    Portion control and the number of times a person eats per day is another. There is a lot of conflicting information. Recently, a study looked at the way people eat and found that people in the US now eat close to 5 meals per day. This is up from about 3.5 meals 40 years ago. That means people are snacking more between meals. Yet, many diet plans encourage people to eat every 3-4 hours. The downside is that we eat all the time and we get used to the function of eating, rather than eating when we are actually hungry. We can have huge portions, but then we must stop snacking, or one can have small portions and eat constantly. Either way, one seriously needs to monitor calories in. Forget the whole calories from fat, or from protein, etc. That is too complicated. If people would measure out a serving size and try to stick to 2000 calories a day, they would be much less likely to become obese.

    Another concern is the work schedule in the US. If you are a salaried employee, I doubt you work a 40 hour week. Two of the last three positions I have held have been salary based and I've averaged 60+ hours per week, minimum. When I was an hourly employee, I worked three jobs to cover the bills and ended up working well over 60 hours a week then, too. This leaves little time for exercise. The downside for employers is that many will end up picking of the bulk of the cost of health insurance for obese and overweight employees. This is going to lead to increased cost for the company and employees. Even if you provide workout facilities, some employees may not be able to leave their work long enough to use such a facility. Other employers prefer that you utilized the facilities on your own time, but the again when you work 60 hours a week and have a family, when do you have time?

  17. #17
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    I am fortunate that my job is so physical that I can eat fairly casually. Mountain biking isn't even really a fitness thing for me, it's more a fun thing. I am at target heart rate several times a day, it' s one long 12 hour interval training event day after day. I don't eat much, a bowl of Honey Nut Cheerios for breakfast, a couple of peanut butter & honey on wheat bread sandwiches for lunch and whatever I want for dinner. I range from 200 to 210 pounds at 5' 9". I don't do as much physical work in the winter for the gullet pudge kicks in but I usually have that burned off by summer. I always build muscle mass just from the day to day grind.

  18. #18
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    I'm 135 soaking wet, and have been since High School. I did absolutely nothing for it, it's in my genes.

    Maybe some of these "fatties" simply have a larger body type ?

  19. #19
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    This is a topic I have followed closely for decades. Most of my family is obese. One is morbidly obese.

    Did you know the CDC has added a new category, super morbidly obese. A BMI of over 45 or 50. Almost 20 years ago, it was reported there were over one million 400 pounders in the U.S. Today it is likely a much greater number.

    Frontline did a great show on obesity many years back. I think the CDC began tracking obesity in 1982. They showed a map of the U.S., showing one state shaded in pink, representing a population with a BMI over 20. In the following years, all states turned pink, except Colorado, and most states gradually were shaded red, meaning their population exceeded 25. Now Mississippi leads the pack, with 34% of it's population obese. If you look at the past trend, you can predict that in a few short years, 50% of the U.S. will be obese, along with rising numbers of morbid and super morbidly obese.


    There have been heated debates about health care in the U.S. Many feel it is a right for all Americans. Do they fully understand that 75% of health care costs go to treat obesity and smoking related illnesses. That percentage will only grow, as more people choose to harm their health. This effects us all. Medicare, medicaid and SS recipients all take out much more than they contribute. As more and more people have to be treated and given SS disability payments at earlier and earlier ages, it will shorten the life of those entitlement programs, or cause them to go completely broke.

    Harsh language or insults to those causing this to happen, will not solve the problem, but people better not be afraid to confront the people and the issue, before it's too late, and even the healthy folks lose out on SS and medicare.

  20. #20
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    I've been trying to quit smoking for a while because I know it is bad for me and I won't do my family any good if I am dead, but a few know it all guys at work have really been giving me **** about how bad it is for me and basically just piss me off every time I try to take a smoke break. Both are pretty overweight and one is WAY overweight, well north of 300 lbs and had to have knee replacement surgery. After a few weeks of him bothering me, I finally had enough. I asked him if he thought weighing twice as much as he needed to was any healthier. He was a little stunned. People easily recognize smoking as bad, but don't pay much attention to the fact that they are 400 lbs and have diabetes as a result. Hopefully I will be off the smoking wagon soon and can keep my weight down, less I turn into a fat ass and trade one bad thing for another.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonWunderland View Post
    Lardification . . .

    Now, in 2011, only one state has less than 20% of their population who is clinically obese. That state is Colorado at 19.88%.

    Maximum weight capacity on household bathroom scales used to be 250 lbs. -- back in 1975. Then it went to 300 lbs. Currently, standard max. capacity for household bathroom scales is 400 lbs.

    -- discuss . . .
    And at any time, 80% of the 20%+ from any given state who are clinically obese can be found in a Walmart parking lot. What a sad trend...
    Sometimes, you need to go fast enough that the trail is a blur to find clarity. -- Wild Bill

  22. #22
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    Fat people are disgusting.

    /thread.

    You in Oklahoma City? If yes, come ride with us.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by old'skool View Post
    Maybe some of these "fatties" simply have a larger body type ?
    True, some do. But when I see friends and acquaintances who were thinner and healthier back in HS and college (25-30 years ago for me) who are now packing the double chins, beer guts and muffin tops and look 20 years older than they are, likely has more to do with life choices (poor choices regarding health) than body type.
    Sometimes, you need to go fast enough that the trail is a blur to find clarity. -- Wild Bill

  24. #24
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    Growing up in a Bay Area suburb, I never really saw many fat people. I'm not sure why, but a lot of the people walking around the local Safeways and the malls and everything are kinda alright, mostly a bit overweight, but not obese. (I'm sitting here with a glass of milk and a brownie for lunch.)

    I went up to Reno a few weeks ago for college orientation. My parents and I were eating dinner in one of the "restaurants" in the hotel/casino we were staying. It got to the point where my parents started having a competition to see who could count the most fat people. It was horrifyingly gross.
    Sometimes, I question the value of my content.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanizedDNA View Post
    Interesting, it has become increasingly obvious but I just wonder where they get this info? Myself, my family or anyone I know for that matter has never been tested for body fat content?
    Well . . .

    I get medical care through the VA. VA records my weight, knows my height, and all the records go into a federal data base that tracks veterans and their health.

    Any doctor does pretty much the same thing.

    BMI and predisposition for obesity is about 80% genetic.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  26. #26
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    I range from 200 to 210 pounds at 5' 9".
    You're in the same boat as me . . . I'm 5' 10" and about 220, down from about 260, and much, much fitter, more active.

    http://www.bmi-calculator.net/

    Nonetheless -- BMI for 5' 9" is 29.53 (200 lbs.) and 31.01 borderline clinically obese.

    I'm over the top, (31.56) but headed down . . . and very fit for 63 yrs old, good muscle tone, heart rate and endurance. Diabetes numbers, blood pressure, and cholesterol are under control. I could stand to be 165 lbs -- 45 lbs. less than I weigh. Haven't been in that range since about 1988.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

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    Being 6'3 and 175lbs for pretty much the past 15 years of my life (currently 31) I have trouble relating to this subject on a personal level. My entire mom's side of the family is filled with endurance athletes, college athletes and recreational athletes... there isn't one person in our 31 family members that I would say is overweight. My grandparents are to thank, they are 83 and 79 and still get out everyday to ride their bikes, play tennis or golf. Physical fitness was a staple in their lives that was passed down the family tree.

    I look at my friends from high school and college and am just amazed. Guys I played high school and college basketball with, high school baseball with and used to ride with are huge. It saddens me and short of the occasional beer belly jokes someone drops, no one brings it up. I know they are all aware, but they just don't care enough about their family (or themselves) to do anything about it.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nenbran View Post
    It was inevitable, (as with many other issues that this country faces) given our immense wealth and overabundance of everything.
    While that is somewhat true, I think that sounds to much like an excuse, it`s our own responsibility to take care of ourselves.

  29. #29
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    Body mass index is 80% genetic.

    This is the hard science. That said, the American diet is out of control.
    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spindelatron View Post
    shocking...but I've got to say BMI is kind of BS as far as assessing a person's fitness
    This is true, it is not too useful for individuals.

    It IS, however, useful for looking at larger populations and trends.

    I am a thick, stocky guy that puts on muscle easily, and I used to work construction and lift weights. I was told by one physician a few years ago that I was very overweight, based on my BMI. I had my bodyfat checked by the sports lab at Virginia Tech (a friend worked there) and it was 14.5%, putting me on the better end of "fit" for my age, approaching "athletic".

    Interestingly, in the 4 years since, as I have mostly stopped lifting weights and my construction years are farther behind me, I have lost around 15 lbs (lost 20, but put 5 back on this year), but I don't think my bodyfat fat has changed much. If anything it may have gone up a hair. But according to me BMI, I doing much better.

    So, in my case, a high BMI was due to working out in the gym and generally being muscular. However, if the BMI of an entire population goes up over time, it is not likely due to an wide increase of people working out in the gym or a genetic shift to being a more "stocky" build.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by mechanizedDNA View Post
    Interesting, it has become increasingly obvious but I just wonder where they get this info? Myself, my family or anyone I know for that matter has never been tested for body fat content?
    BMI is not the same thing as percentage body fat. BMI is determined by weight and height.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  32. #32
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    It's like people don't realize what the proper weight is. every time some lard ass comes to the clinic with knee, back, or hip px i tell them "hey this is why your knee hurts... and you should also consider losing some weight."
    i always get the same response "Whaaa?!"
    yes i said you are fat, your bone are same size as mine and you are twice the weight. Than we track their diet for a week and holy crap they eat like ****, they swear it is genetic but i know otherwise.
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  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonWunderland View Post
    Body mass index is 80% genetic.

    This is the hard science.
    I think you're mis-speaking. BMI is controlled by diet with genes as an underlying catalyst. I'd believe entirely that 80% of people have a gene for storing excess calories, it's an evolutionary left over.
    BMI is not genetic, it's the body's propensity to store fat that's genetic.
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  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonWunderland View Post
    Body mass index is 80% genetic.

    This is the hard science. That said, the American diet is out of control.
    Genetics help determine your body type (endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph or typically somewhere in between), but it doesn't matter if you're a 100% ectomorph - if you eat enough **** and exercise not at all, you can still become obese. Genetics are what they are, but we can alter our body fat content and thus our BMI. I honestly don't know what you mean when you say "BMI is 80% genetic," but since you say it's hard science I would love to see the study. Can you link me to it?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonWunderland View Post

    BMI and predisposition for obesity is about 80% genetic.
    Im not looking to start a pissing match but I disagree with that. I think its more of bad eating habits, lack of eduction and inactive life styles being passed down from the parents rather than a glandular genetic issue. Sure hypothyroidism is or can be genetic and can contribute to obesity in the right environment but its not going to make you eat 8000 empty calories a day to gain 300 lbs. That argument is just a crutch and a excuse to not take care of yourself and eat right.
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonWunderland View Post
    That said, the American diet is out of control.
    The American take-a-car-everywhere lifestyle is equally to blame.

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    Overeating is, in my opinion, a sickness. Almost like an addiction. No one in their right mind eats until they weigh 300 lbs. Just as no one in their right mind drinks themselves out of a family and a job.

    But yeah, there are other factors. The media, over sized portions, lack of education, lack of exercise, processed food, fast food, etc etc.

  38. #38
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    Yesterday I racked up a $120.16 bill at a sushi bar here in San Jose (I gave a $32.00 tip, as the service and sushi quality was great). I ate it all to myself. For breakfast today I made carnitas with two fried eggs, six tostada shells, rice and black beans, cotija cheese, guacamole, and salsa fresca. For dinner tonight I will have 1/2 pound of pasta (uncooked weight), which I will be topping with a home made alfredo sauce (organic whipping cream and olive oil for the caloric win!!!). Oh, I do a lot of bike riding, without it I would surely be a fatass lardoturd.

    I do love a good eating challenge, not quite on the same parallel as Joey Chestnut (also from my area, San Jose), but every two months I do the 4 pound burger challenge at a Mendocino County eating establishment on the coast—I am going to be doing this again this coming Friday evening.

    I love food. Correction: I love good food. I will not lower myself to fast food, I would rather fast, or just drink beer instead. Come to think of it, I am struggling now trying to remember the last time I ate fast food, I think it may have been 1998 or thereabouts.
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  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nenbran View Post
    Using pejorative language accomplishes nothing. Just as calling gay people "faggots" and African American people "n******," calling overweight people "fatties" is pointless, counterproductive and, quite frankly, not acceptable in a society that preaches equality and justice for all.
    Looks like we just found the fat, gay, black dude on the site.

    Sorry dude...that material was right over the plate...the joke had to be made.

    Back to the original topic...is there any hypothesis given in the article for WHY this shift toward obesity has occured?

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    I think you're mis-speaking. BMI is controlled by diet with genes as an underlying catalyst. I'd believe entirely that 80% of people have a gene for storing excess calories, it's an evolutionary left over.
    BMI is not genetic, it's the body's propensity to store fat that's genetic.
    I remember back around 1970 and on when I worked with my dad he used to say how much larger the girls breasts were now then when he was young (born in 1920). I mentioned how much easier food was to get now. And he then said how he had noticed an increase in weight of people.

    Had an interesting talk with a customer (read milf). We are very open in talking. She has dated younger men ( read boys) and she says the younger guys just cant perform in the sack like her 40 and older men. Out of shape, no idea how to act, sloppy clothes,dirty, etc. She says the older guys will keep their weight and fitness good just to impress the girls. They have pride in themselves.

    My sister has her doctorate in anthropology and she agrees, and I do to, is a leftover thing from when we lived in the trees, the gene thing.

    I have noticed also when hiring a kid for boiler installs and such they got no balls. Their pinkeys are often curled when working in dirty conditions. Food is so easy right now. I am worried for many younger people (im 51) that the information on how to survive on your own grown or hunted food is lost. Like canning, etc. I will say doing so will reduce the overall weight of the population and better their health. The big food corps won't let that happen.

    We definitely have a different diet now then when I was young. I was replacing a domestic water pump for a customer last week. He is 63. Had a heart attack, unknown to him until a badly needed checkup. He asked me if I wanted some lunch from Stewarts ice cream and gas place. What the hell is there in Stewarts to eat for lunch? Never had lunch from a gas station before . Sorry to say I have had lunch from Stewerts now. They have hot dogs, premade sandwiches, candy bars, some okay soups and chili. Very busy at the food area.

    Point is, although obscure, is we have a choice. Good, easy times brings certain issues that are different when times are hard. Most if us take the easy road when available. Not many take the correct road.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by bclagge View Post
    Edit: beat me to it by 1 minute!



    Genetics help determine your body type (endomorph, ectomorph, mesomorph or typically somewhere in between), but it doesn't matter if you're a 100% ectomorph - if you eat enough **** and exercise not at all, you can still become obese. Genetics are what they are, but we can alter our body fat content and thus our BMI. I honestly don't know what you mean when you say "BMI is 80% genetic," but since you say it's hard science I would love to see the study. Can you link me to it?
    I thought it was BS, so I Googled "body mass index 80%" and came up with this study as the first hit. The abstract looks plausible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muddytire View Post
    Looks like we just found the fat, gay, black dude on the site.

    Sorry dude...that material was right over the plate...the joke had to be made.
    Haha I'm actually the exact opposite of the three. Skinny, straight, and white, (not that it would really matter). Just bothers me when people do nothing but insult others and use pejorative language constantly. It is tiring. It is pointless. It is apathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by acer66 View Post
    While that is somewhat true, I think that sounds to much like an excuse, it`s our own responsibility to take care of ourselves.
    I can understand your point of view. I actually agree with it. Your life is what you make it. I was merely stating that when a society lives in such overabundance for so long, some problems are inevitable. We can't count on everyone to do what is best for themselves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by muddytire View Post
    Back to the original topic...is there any hypothesis given in the article for WHY this shift toward obesity has occured?
    Too many reason to list, some of which have been mentioned above. For me, I would say the main reason (not excuse, there is a difference) is the convenience of processed food. With both parents working and kids that have soccer practice, gymnastics, music lessons, etc. 3-4 nights a week, there is very little time to prepare and eat a proper meals. Plus, I would find myself eating at dinner at 8:30-9pm because I would go straight from work to practice. Once again, that is not an excuse, I know ultimately it was my fault that I gained the weight.

    That said, basing anything other than society-wide statistics BMI is not good. But I can see some insurance companies and/or the government putting a standard in place based on BMI, which would be a mistake because it doesn't take into account body type.

    I ride about 100 miles/week and am dropping weight, but according the CDC's definition, a chain smoking, alcoholic with a good BMI would be healthier than me. I am 5'11" and when I was 20 I worked a physically demanding job and was riding 5-6 days a week. My body fat % was less than 14% and I weighed 195lbs. I was not lifting weights or doing anything to add muscle mass. That would have put my BMI at 27.2 - obese. To be considered "normal" I would need to be under 180lbs. Pretty sure I would be dying of cancer or something if I got under 180....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazydad View Post
    I ride about 100 miles/week and am dropping weight, but according the CDC's definition, a chain smoking, alcoholic with a good BMI would be healthier than me. I am 5'11" and when I was 20 I worked a physically demanding job and was riding 5-6 days a week. My body fat % was less than 14% and I weighed 195lbs. I was not lifting weights or doing anything to add muscle mass. That would have put my BMI at 27.2 - obese. To be considered "normal" I would need to be under 180lbs. Pretty sure I would be dying of cancer or something if I got under 180....
    I try to do around 120 road miles and 40-50 mtb miles per week. That works out to three road rides and two or three mtb rides. I'm on summer break from school, and my most serious job starts tomorrow, when I'll be painting my grandmother's fence. I "get there sometime in the morning and leave when I'm tired," according to her. So hopefully I'll still get some riding in.

    Right now I'm 5'11" and 170 pounds. I'm trying to drop down to below 160 by the end of summer for riding and fitness reasons. I'm thinking about racing for my college team in the fall. I checked with an online calculator (linked from this forum, I think) and it says I'm around 9% body fat. But then my BMI works out to the upper 20s, and that's technically overweight. I wasn't around "back in the good ol' days" when "everyone was skinny and healthy," so I don't have anything against which I can compare my experience nowadays. The only comparison comes from when I went to the Basque country a few years ago, and everyone seemed fit there. They actually went outside to pass the time, and they were okay with walking all day. My host family didn't even have internet, and they only watched the TV at dinner, to catch up on news. The horrors.
    Sometimes, I question the value of my content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by womble View Post
    I thought it was BS, so I Googled "body mass index 80%" and came up with this study as the first hit. The abstract looks plausible.
    A bit of a technical read, but the gist of it was that BMI, as well as change in BMI over time, is a primarily heritable trait. It's not genetics that are turning this country into Land O' the Lard though - it's personal choice. Even those that have genetics against them can maintain a healthy body weight, or at least a healthy level of fitness, they just have to make different choices.

    I'm going to go eat breakfast now. Oatmeal, blueberries and 2 eggs. Later for lunch I'm going to have Greek yogurt, cashews, carrots and a whole grain roll. Dinner - tilapia, brown rice vegetable sushi and cashews. Before I go to bed I'll have low fat cottage cheese as a snack.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nenbran View Post
    It was inevitable, (as with many other issues that this country faces) given our immense wealth and overabundance of everything.

    I find that being disgusted by overweight people accomplishes nothing though.
    Except that obesity disproportionally effects poor people. The availability of cheap processed food which is very unhealthy contributes a lot. There is a lot of literature coming out right now about the increase in obesity in third world countries as processed food becomes available. With obesity comes diabetes, heart disease, stroke, etc. which leads to huge health care costs.

    Since much of this problem effects a population which is unlikely to have health insurance, the conditions go untreated until they are acute and require hospitalization. Since they are poor with no insurance they can't pay the hospital, and so the really expensive care must be distributed among those who do. This is why we need some system to provide health care for the poor. They will end up at the Dr. either way, and the Dr.'s and hospitals will make their money either way. The only choice is whether we, as a society, spend a little or a lot in treating their problems.


    Quote Originally Posted by muddytire
    Back to the original topic...is there any hypothesis given in the article for WHY this shift toward obesity has occured?
    Subsidies for corn and sugar play a huge part. Most processed food is corn based. Cheap meat is raised on subsidized corn. Do away with the corn subsidies and the fast food business model lo longer works. If we instead spent that money subsidizing vegetables and healthy meat, people would start eating healthier purely out of economics.

    The problem is that both the corn and sugar industry are huge and spend lots of money on lobbyists every year in order keep their tax-funded cash cow going. Also, if all the fast food places go out of business, there will be a huge increase in the number of unskilled workers in need of employment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dogbrain View Post
    Except that obesity disproportionally effects poor people. The availability of cheap processed food which is very unhealthy contributes a lot. There is a lot of literature coming out right now about the increase in obesity in third world countries as processed food becomes available. With obesity comes diabetes, heart disease, stroke, etc. which leads to huge health care costs.
    Very true. However, you must account for what led to the mass production of processed food...

    EDIT: You must also account for what led to the massive class division.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nenbran View Post
    Very true. However, you must account for what led to the mass production of processed food...

    EDIT: You must also account for what led to the massive class division.
    What led to mass processed food and massive class division can be summed up by one work: money.

    Without a profit (money), no food processing company is gonna make processed food. But then the question becomes, if the poor don't have money, then what other food choices do they have other than cheap processed food?

    I don't know what the answer is, but class division has always been with human and it looks like humans are more greedy than we like to admit. There is no answer here. Only in utopia.

    However, it's not just the processed food. It's also the fast food chain restaurant. The only mom-n-pop restaurant nowadays are boutique-ish shop. All the KFCs, McDs, Burger Kings,, etc.. have taken over America couple decades ago.

    OK how about have the government, instead of giving money to the military, give money to the poor (in the form of food stamps) and mandate them eat healthy food? Wouldn't this alleviate the healthcare issue in the long term? But now we're getting into politics, so it's probably not gonna happen.

    But one this for sure, Americans are lazy to cook now, rich or poor. Just too damn lazy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chauzie View Post
    What led to mass processed food and massive class division can be summed up by one work: money.

    Without a profit (money), no food processing company is gonna make processed food. But then the question becomes, if the poor don't have money, then what other food choices do they have other than cheap processed food?

    I don't know what the answer is, but class division has always been with human and it looks like humans are more greedy than we like to admit. There is no answer here. Only in utopia.

    However, it's not just the processed food. It's also the fast food chain restaurant. The only mom-n-pop restaurant nowadays are boutique-ish shop. All the KFCs, McDs, Burger Kings,, etc.. have taken over America couple decades ago.

    OK how about have the government, instead of giving money to the military, give money to the poor (in the form of food stamps) and mandate them eat healthy food? Wouldn't this alleviate the healthcare issue in the long term? But now we're getting into politics, so it's probably not gonna happen.

    But one this for sure, Americans are lazy to cook now, rich or poor. Just too damn lazy.
    Of course it comes down to money. The reason processed/fast food is both cheap and profitable is because of many billions of dollars in corn/soybean/sugar subsidies. The answer is simply to stop subsidizing those products, which will drive processed/fast food out of business, and start subsidizing vegetable production and responsibly grown meat.

    Check out this link. Keep in mind that the "meat and dairy" subsidies are mostly corn subsidies. The industrial corn that is grown in the midwest is not edible sweet corn, but a tough high yield corn that can only be used for animal feed and processed food.

    Why a Big Mac costs less than a salad.

    Edit: Oil subsidies also play a huge roll in what is a profitable form of agriculture.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chauzie View Post
    What led to mass processed food and massive class division can be summed up by one work: money.

    Without a profit (money), no food processing company is gonna make processed food. But then the question becomes, if the poor don't have money, then what other food choices do they have other than cheap processed food?

    I don't know what the answer is, but class division has always been with human and it looks like humans are more greedy than we like to admit. There is no answer here. Only in utopia.

    However, it's not just the processed food. It's also the fast food chain restaurant. The only mom-n-pop restaurant nowadays are boutique-ish shop. All the KFCs, McDs, Burger Kings,, etc.. have taken over America couple decades ago.

    OK how about have the government, instead of giving money to the military, give money to the poor (in the form of food stamps) and mandate them eat healthy food? Wouldn't this alleviate the healthcare issue in the long term? But now we're getting into politics, so it's probably not gonna happen.

    But one this for sure, Americans are lazy to cook now, rich or poor. Just too damn lazy.
    That is exactly what I was implying. Thank you for spelling it out quite well!

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    Quote Originally Posted by muddytire View Post
    Back to the original topic...is there any hypothesis given in the article for WHY this shift toward obesity has occured?
    Overabundance/overconsumption of processed foods, including overconsumption of sugars (particularly sugary drinks)

    increase in sedentary lifestyle (more office desk jobs and fewer manual labor/farm-type jobs)

    decrease in self-propelled transportation and increased reliance on automotive transport. exacerbated by the fact that most places are developed for convenient auto travel and NOT for convenient pedestrian/bicycle travel (at least for short trips).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nenbran View Post
    You must also account for what led to the massive class division.
    A thought out and constructed system by the government. It's no conspiracy, class division provides haves and have nots, with the middle class in between as a buffer to class warfare.

    The loss of the middle class would be a great threat to the social stability of any nation. (Just a for what it's worth tangent.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblemumble View Post
    A thought out and constructed system by the government. It's no conspiracy, class division provides haves and have nots, with the middle class in between as a buffer to class warfare.

    The loss of the middle class would be a great threat to the social stability of any nation. (Just a for what it's worth tangent.)
    I know. I was implying this...not saying it was some "conspiracy."

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    interesting thread, a few comments.

    First, I don't think it is true that if we eliminated corn, sugar and soy subsidies that the fast food market would go out of business. In fact the price of these items has been going up very quickly over the last few years and the fast food market has been thriving.

    Corn prices have been rising mostly from congressional mandates ethanol use in gasoline. The fact that the price of corn has been going up is mildly annoying to the average American , but causing major problems for some third world countries where food takes up a very large part of peoples wages. This is of coarse a whole other issue, but another example of how special interests help some large corporations make lots of money but end up causing large problems for society.

    Back to the issue at hand Obesity, Here are two things that would help, but will never happen.

    The first way to help the obesity problem would be to tax unhealthy foods and subsidize healthy foods.

    The second thing that would help is to charge overweight and obese people more for health insurance, This would not only give people an incentive to loose weight but also cause them to pay for some of the costs resulting from their lifestyle choices.
    TEX

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonWunderland View Post
    Body mass index is 80% genetic.

    This is the hard science. That said, the American diet is out of control.
    Really!? Wow- there's been MASSIVE genetic drift over the past 25 years then!

    You might want to think twice about that assertion. How much fat you carry is mostly the law of conservation of energy. If you consume more calories than you burn (or pass), you get fat. If you consume less than you burn (or pass), you lose weight. It is impossible to gain or lose weight any other way. The difference between total energy in (calories consumed) - total energy out (work done, bio-processes maintained, units of heat generated, and any remaining energy passed in feces) will determiune if you get fat or skinny.

    I would love to belong to a health insurance company that required a fitness test. That'd be some cheap insurance!

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    Quote Originally Posted by chauzie View Post

    OK how about have the government, instead of giving money to the military, give money to the poor (in the form of food stamps) and mandate them eat healthy food? Wouldn't this alleviate the healthcare issue in the long term? But now we're getting into politics, so it's probably not gonna happen.

    But one this for sure, Americans are lazy to cook now, rich or poor. Just too damn lazy.
    I like much of your thinking...but if you defund you military you will no longer have fat Americans...you'll have fat former Americans that are ruled over by whoever conquered us. No country survives without the means to defend itself.

    As for the food stamps...fraud and black markets will keep that solution from working. Much like the californians who were using their welfare cards at strip clubs and casinos...those things are more fun than vegetables so people will find a way to get what they want.

    You are definately right to track the economics of it as they play a large role. As many times the case with economics there are no exact answers, rather choices that move the problem in the right or wrong general direction. When human choice is involved the "rational" assumtions that drive economic models get smacked by reality.

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    there are a couple of ways to looks at this. one would be the wussification of america. there are so many wussies out there to afraid to do anything.

    the second would be to get rid of video games. kids can play outside. that happened for eons before video games.

    neither of these are going to go away, but think about it. we are to scared to go into the woods to play becasue we might get hurt, so we play video games on the sofa.

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    Punitive taxes used to influence peoples lives is definitely not liberty. People should be free to live how they want to live.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    Punitive taxes used to influence peoples lives is definitely not liberty. People should be free to live how they want to live.
    What's your stance on tobacco taxes?

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    When I lived in Europe I never paid attention to "round" people. When I moved here I learnt how to hate fat people. Is is absolutely disgusting in America. I say no to free healthcare in this country. I am sorry to come off as an ass. People in this country eat and live like trash. They do not grasp a notion of "quality food" at all. The more the better.
    “You can always count on Americans to do the right thing - after they've tried everything else.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonWunderland View Post
    That said, the American diet is out of control.
    Too little time to read through all this, but I wanted to kick in a few thoughts.

    First off, to the person who got twisted up about overweight folks being called fatties. Your comparisons don't work. Both skin color and sexual orientation are generally choices made by genetics (let's not get into the whole gays throughout history being 10% of the population vs it's a morality choice bit here...) Being fat IS a choice. So I have no issue with derogatory terms being applied to folks who have control over the problem. If you acted like an idiot in class 40 years ago, you might have to wear a dunce cap, why? Cause you were acting like one. Public shame is a good tool. If you're too weak to push away from the table, or ask for water when you're thirsty instead of a milk shake, you need therapy, and a bit of public shame just might help you get to it. That we are so accepting and accommodating to them, just assists them on their way to an early grave

    As for the American diet, yeah, it's really screwed up. The other day, my wife pulled an apple out of the fridge. It was in a bag from the store, with a price tag on it. I can't recall the exact price but it was hovering in the $2 range, I think a touch over. She does the shopping, so I'll color myself unaware, but I assumed it was the last one in the bag. The price was for that ONE apple.

    I reflect upon how much effort was required (really) to get that one apple there. Grow, pick, truck to store, merchandise. I'm not discounting, or minimizing all the time money and effort involved with farming, not at all. But then I consider how much more energy, time, effort, number of hands, etc, that goes into the production of your average value meal for a dollar at a fast food place, or how many packs of Ramen you can buy for a dollar, or how much soda or chips one can buy for a dollar, and I feel sick.

    When my wife and I were just getting started with our son, we were on WIC, which gave her (a nursing, low income mom) access to some extra, healthy food. We were extremely limited to what we could get, and it consisted of things like milk, juice that was 100% fruit, whole grain cereals, etc.

    We'd go shopping and see folks ahead of us in line, paying with Food Stamps, while we paid cash, and got a bit of "free" milk basically. Invariably, the stamp recipients were purchasing chips, frozen dinners, soda, Twinkies, basically, crap. I still feel the single best way to help with this is to apply the same stringent standards to Food Stamp programs as is done to WIC. You want free food? You can have raw, whole food, or natural foods (IE, milk, 100% juice, raw fruits and veggies etc, not "Whole Foods/Trader Joe's" natural). Then, offer classes which are required (we had to attend them to get WIC) that teach about food prep, food handling safety,etc.

    I'm all about a hand up, and some education to allow people to make their lives better. Hand outs, suck, and we are now reaping the benefits of doing so....
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmmorath View Post
    What's your stance on tobacco taxes?
    In my opinion taxes on tobacco are punitive and too high. But tobacco is a politically easy target for high taxes so our citizens put up with it. In my opinion our government has a spending problem not a revenue problem. Using taxes to penalize people or otherwise influence their lives is not what the founding fathers had in mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    In my opinion taxes on tobacco are punitive and too high. But tobacco is a politically easy target for high taxes so our citizens put up with it. In my opinion our government has a spending problem not a revenue problem. Using taxes to penalize people or otherwise influence their lives is not what the founding fathers had in mind.
    I guess I fundamentally don't agree with your view on this. If we want society to prosper we should encourage behavior that will help people, and discourage people from dangerous behavior.

    The way things work today when people live an unhealthy lifestyle everyone shares the burden they create, i.e. if they have health insurance then the cost of insurance to everyone goes up, if they don't have health insurance then eventually they will need to go to the hospital and chances are good they won't be able to afford it , so again society pays. Do you not realize that taxing this unhealthy behavior is not only a matter of encouraging more healthy behavior but also a matter of getting people to pay some of the costs there behavior is costing? Isn't it more fair to make people pay for the costs there behavior is creating? Should people be able to do anything dangerous and reckless they want and then have society pay for any damage they create?
    TEX

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    Quote Originally Posted by texas View Post
    I guess I fundamentally don't agree with your view on this. If we want society to prosper we should encourage behavior that will help people, and discourage people from dangerous behavior.

    The way things work today when people live an unhealthy lifestyle everyone shares the burden they create, i.e. if they have health insurance then the cost of insurance to everyone goes up, if they don't have health insurance then eventually they will need to go to the hospital and chances are good they won't be able to afford it , so again society pays. Do you not realize that taxing this unhealthy behavior is not only a matter of encouraging more healthy behavior but also a matter of getting people to pay some of the costs there behavior is costing? Isn't it more fair to make people pay for the costs there behavior is creating? Should people be able to do anything dangerous and reckless they want and then have society pay for any damage they create?
    Slippery slope my friend, you open a whole list of activities that raise premiums including mountainbiking and any adventure sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Being fat IS a choice. So I have no issue with derogatory terms being applied to folks who have control over the problem. If you acted like an idiot in class 40 years ago, you might have to wear a dunce cap, why? Cause you were acting like one. Public shame is a good tool. If you're too weak to push away from the table, or ask for water when you're thirsty instead of a milk shake, you need therapy, and a bit of public shame just might help you get to it. That we are so accepting and accommodating to them, just assists them on their way to an early grave
    The problem with throwing derogatory terms at everyone that looks fat to you is that you don't know WHY that individual is fat.

    Yes, the biggest part of our obesity epidemic in this country is due to choices people make. This is not ALWAYS the case though. While most overweight people I know are the way they are due to lifestyle choices, I do know a couple of people who eat well, are active, and are just overweight, that's the way it is. Shaming them for this is not helping anyone.

    I have no idea why you and your wife were receiving WIC assistance. However, by your argument, I would have been justified (encouraged, even) to use any one of many derogatory terms used for lazy poor people leaching of the system. Is that what you guys needed at the time? Some public shaming?

    And by the way, while the "dunce cap" treatment might well have corrected the kids simply goofing off, it did NOTHING (except damage in some cases) for the kids with actual cognitive disables, or kids that simply needed glasses.

    So please, don't try and rationalize judgmental, derogatory slurs based on incomplete information as somehow "just trying to help". This behavior is coming from your worst of intentions, not your best.
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    Quote Originally Posted by desrcr View Post
    Slippery slope my friend, you open a whole list of activities that raise premiums including mountainbiking and any adventure sport.
    I see mountain biking as helping me maintain a healthy lifestyle. In the 19 years I have been mountain biking I have never had an injury that required medical treatment, and I ride all of the most technical trails available. Certainly some people get injured some severely. I see mountain biking as an activity that has health risks and benefits for me the health benefits significantly out way the risks. Contrast this to over eating processed foods and being fat, there is no health benefit.

    In general I would have no problems with making someone who is doing an activity that is causing frequent injuries to pay more for health insurance. Kind of like if you keep getting in car accidents your Auto insurance goes up.
    TEX

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    5' 10" 195lbs here.

    Solid though.

    Weights 5 days a week, cardio 3-4 times a week, plus my weekend mtn bike rides.

    Most of my riding partners are in pretty damn good shape.

    Walk around Las Vegas at any time of the day though, and you'd never think sea creatures and whales could make it so far from the ocean shore line.



    It really is disgusting, and what's even worse.... is that people have just "accepted" it. So, those of us that are IN SHAPE and fit, are suddenly the outcast.. being staired at, and treated differently everywhere we go.

    "You're selfish"

    "You're a gym rat"

    "You're a meathead"

    "You're a granola"

    STFU. People that are 400lbs are the selfish ones. Consuming that much food to ever get to that point.

    Filthy.

    Way to go America. Be proud.
    You in Oklahoma City? If yes, come ride with us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    In my opinion taxes on tobacco are punitive and too high. But tobacco is a politically easy target for high taxes so our citizens put up with it. In my opinion our government has a spending problem not a revenue problem. Using taxes to penalize people or otherwise influence their lives is not what the founding fathers had in mind.
    In light of the increased burden they put on the heathcare system, I don't think it is unreasonable at all. Of course, I am in favor of extra taxes on many things that are shown to incur extra costs on the country. Some call it liberal, I call it paying your own way.

    I get very suspicious when anyone claims to know what the founding fathers had in mind about anything they did not specifically spell out.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Some people enjoy riding their bike down stooopid **** risking serious injury, others enjoy eating, mind yer own damn business.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    Punitive taxes used to influence peoples lives is definitely not liberty. People should be free to live how they want to live.
    In my opinion, which may be shared by many here, people can't have it both ways: free to live the way they want to and then ask for some form of a bail out from a safety net program we are all funding when their choices land them in trouble. The high, punitive taxes are the same as charging higher insurance rates to those involved in high-risk activities and simply requiring those individuals to pay more of their share since statistically/practically, they will require more of their share.

    I don't see how the founding fathers would have had an issue with this type of parity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by texas View Post
    I guess I fundamentally don't agree with your view on this.
    I suspected we disagree dramatically. In my view the role of the US government is not to influence (manipulate) people but simply to provide an environment where citizens can exercise their liberty to live freely as each individual sees fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    In light of the increased burden they put on the heathcare system, I don't think it is unreasonable at all. Of course, I am in favor of extra taxes on many things that are shown to incur extra costs on the country. Some call it liberal, I call it paying your own way.
    Interesting you assume citizens need to be responsible but not the government itself.

    I get very suspicious when anyone claims to know what the founding fathers had in mind about anything they did not specifically spell out.
    We know very well what was on the mind of the founding fathers one merely has to read the documents leading up to the signing of the constitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Interesting you assume citizens need to be responsible but not the government itself.
    You are making assumptions about my assumptions.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    You are making assumptions about my assumptions.
    No you are very clear actually.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    No you are very clear actually.
    As long as it works for you, I'm not going to mess with your inner dialogue.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    Too little time to read through all this, but I wanted to kick in a few thoughts.

    First off, to the person who got twisted up about overweight folks being called fatties. Your comparisons don't work. Both skin color and sexual orientation are generally choices made by genetics (let's not get into the whole gays throughout history being 10% of the population vs it's a morality choice bit here...) Being fat IS a choice. So I have no issue with derogatory terms being applied to folks who have control over the problem. If you acted like an idiot in class 40 years ago, you might have to wear a dunce cap, why? Cause you were acting like one. Public shame is a good tool. If you're too weak to push away from the table, or ask for water when you're thirsty instead of a milk shake, you need therapy, and a bit of public shame just might help you get to it. That we are so accepting and accommodating to them, just assists them on their way to an early grave
    Good for you. You're entitled to an opinion.

    Tell me this though: what do derogatory terms really accomplish? Public shame, sure. I don't think that is more effective at getting the point across than a level-headed conversation is. Telling a person that they need help, etc., does not need to include using derogatory terms. That's my take.

  79. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nenbran View Post
    Good for you. You're entitled to an opinion.

    Tell me this though: what do derogatory terms really accomplish? Public shame, sure. I don't think that is more effective at getting the point across than a level-headed conversation is. Telling a person that they need help, etc., does not need to include using derogatory terms. That's my take.
    Agreed.

    I think we all agree there is a real problem, we are just not all agreeing on whether using derogatory terms help the problem.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post

    I think we all agree there is a real problem, we are just not all agreeing on whether using derogatory terms help the problem.
    Yes, that is the issue.

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    First off, to the person who got twisted up about overweight folks being called fatties. Your comparisons don't work. Both skin color and sexual orientation are generally choices made by genetics (let's not get into the whole gays throughout history being 10% of the population vs it's a morality choice bit here...) Being fat IS a choice. So I have no issue with derogatory terms being applied to folks who have control over the problem. If you acted like an idiot in class 40 years ago, you might have to wear a dunce cap, why? Cause you were acting like one. Public shame is a good tool. If you're too weak to push away from the table, or ask for water when you're thirsty instead of a milk shake, you need therapy, and a bit of public shame just might help you get to it. That we are so accepting and accommodating to them, just assists them on their way to an early grave
    Actually being fat is not always a choice, we unfortunately have chemicals in our food in America wich quit litterally force people to continue eating, force them like a crack addict to crave certain foods, We also have high thyroid problems in America much of it do to radiation from both nuclear testing and that released "accidently" from Nuclear plants.
    As for the supposed "hey you are in great shape you mtn bike good for you stud you will live a long time" actually no you will not, one you are engaging in one of the most dangerous activities there is, you will be injured and unfortunately do to the extreme aspect of the sport you again put pressure upon your heart causing heart failure down the road, damn, you probably will not live any longer than a fat person, so again, mind yer own damn business.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...66582620070816
    (Reuters Health) - Though exercise can be a key part of managing high blood pressure and heart disease, new animal research suggests there can be too much of a good thing

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    In my view involving the government in "influencing" people's eating habits is a dangerous slippery slope regarding giving up freedoms. What is to prevent the government from deeming an activity such as mountain biking as risky enough to one's safety and costly enough to the health care system (when injuries occur) that it too should be discouraged? Then penalties get applied to mountain bikers.

    In my opinion following the revolutionary war the founding fathers very easily could have created a their own monarchy. In my opinion George Washington very easily could have become king. He had the admiration and support. But they didn't seize control instead they chose to create an innovative system based on individual liberty. In my opinion the intent of the founding fathers is apparent by what they did not do as much as what they did do.

    In my view its about personal liberty and freedom. Americans are too willing to allow their liberties to be incrementally taken away little by little. Today its unhealthy food. Tomorrow its "risky" mountain biking. The next time we are "discouraged" from doing something else. Governments rarely give back freedoms once they have taken them away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    you are engaging in one of the most dangerous activities there is, you will be injured and unfortunately do to the extreme aspect of the sport you again put pressure upon your heart causing heart failure down the road, damn, you probably will not live any longer than a fat person, so again, mind yer own damn business.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...66582620070816
    (Reuters Health) - Though exercise can be a key part of managing high blood pressure and heart disease, new animal research suggests there can be too much of a good thing
    You are entirely wrong and misquoting the article.
    Intense exercise can worsen preexisting cardiac conditions because you didn't exercise regularly before. And mountain biking is not one of the most dangerous activities there is. You may get bruised, cut, or even break your wrist but it's much safer than many activities such as driving, or being fat.
    "...like sex with the trail." - Boe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    Actually being fat is not always a choice, we unfortunately have chemicals in our food in America wich quit litterally force people to continue eating, force them like a crack addict to crave certain foods, We also have high thyroid problems in America much of it do to radiation from both nuclear testing and that released "accidently"
    Hey something I agree with Blrurr about, not good to call overweight people names.

    Calling someone names because they are fat is not going to help them. Loosing weight is not an easy thing to do. In general people will not loose weight until they have some kind of revaluation about eating and lifestyle. It would be great if calling people names caused them to get motivated to loose weight, if it was you would be doing them a favor, unfortunately it just makes them feel bad and likely eat more.

    Being fat is a choice, or more precisely a series of choices one makes , in terms of what to eat and how much and how much calorie burning activities you partake in. There are many factors that make it easier for some to control there weight then others, but everyone can control there weight.
    TEX

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    Slippery Slope.

    Regarding "Slippery Slope" as a tool of argument in any context:

    The "Slippery Slope" idea can be applied to nearly any argument or point of view when talking about what the govt should or should not do or what a law should say. Any action or inaction can be viewed as a "slippery slope" and which way it slopes varies depending on which side you are standing on.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  86. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    The problem with throwing derogatory terms at everyone that looks fat to you is that you don't know WHY that individual is fat.


    I have no idea why you and your wife were receiving WIC assistance. However, by your argument, I would have been justified (encouraged, even) to use any one of many derogatory terms used for lazy poor people leaching of the system. Is that what you guys needed at the time? Some public shaming?

    And by the way, while the "dunce cap" treatment might well have corrected the kids simply goofing off, it did NOTHING (except damage in some cases) for the kids with actual cognitive disables, or kids that simply needed glasses.
    I think you and I end to be more alike than different, so I'll take your post as constructive, as opposed to the alternative.

    Agreed, not everybody is fat by their own hand. My thoughts are aimed straight at the milk shake thirst quenchers out there. The folks with a whole large pizza in front of them, etc. They need to hear that they are really rather disgusting, and the choices they make, affect me and the public in general, both visually, and financially. Folks with Thyroid conditions, cancer requiring constant hormone therapy, etc, are in a whole different class.

    Were I to see someone of immense proportions out exercising, eating a healthy, well proportioned meal, I would feel no need to call out their choices.

    We were on WIC at the suggestion of my wifes doc, since our income was low enough. We'd gone from two incomes to one, so she could stay home with him, we weren't in jobs where we had health care covered, and were service based anyway, so the pay sucked on top of it. But, we were trying to do the right thing, not dump our new born in day care, breast feed for the first year, etc. So we opted to go low rent to do so, no shame in that. If someone chose to shame us for it, I'd simply have informed them that they had their head up the bum.

    Shaming. Were folks made to realize that their neighbors friends, society at large, didn't approve of poor choices they made, particularly when there is no argument other than yep, you made a dumb choice, society would likely be farther ahead. Think how many drug offenders would think twice if they knew they would be embarrassed in public, folks talking on cell phones while driving, say, made to clean up trash while wearing a shirt indicating their poor choice, DWI drivers, name it. More folks realizing they have choices, and still have job, home, family, as opposed to simply paying a fine (ouch, but done in private), going to jail (major life upheaval with limited real life improvement, and usually the opposite problem)....

    As for the rest of it, work in the public school system for a while, perhaps you do (no idea)...

    We enable so many kids so we can keep our graduation rates up, and we do them a grave disservice. The vast bulk of special ed does little to actually help them learn how to cope with their various disabilities, it merely creates a subtle environment where they can get "help" with tests etc by way of multiple choice questions read, with special inflection given on the correct choice, teachers rewriting whole sections of papers for students, etc. If they don't do these things, they aren't considered to be doing a good job, since the kids still fail, and the Ed Board looks bad since grad rates drop.

    Sure, some kids get the help they need, some teachers are worth their weight in gold, but over all, we have a cradle to grave system that teaches those in need to continually use the system, rather than struggle to improve their lot and make their own path in life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    one you are engaging in one of the most dangerous activities there is, you will be injured and unfortunately do to the extreme aspect of the sport you again put pressure upon your heart causing heart failure down the road, damn, you probably will not live any longer than a fat person, so again, mind yer own damn business.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/...66582620070816
    (Reuters Health) - Though exercise can be a key part of managing high blood pressure and heart disease, new animal research suggests there can be too much of a good thing
    Damn, they taught animals to mtb now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by texas View Post
    Hey something I agree with Blrurr about, not good to call overweight people names.

    Calling someone names because they are fat is not going to help them. Loosing weight is not an easy thing to do. In general people will not loose weight until they have some kind of revaluation about eating and lifestyle. It would be great if calling people names caused them to get motivated to loose weight, if it was you would be doing them a favor, unfortunately it just makes them feel bad and likely eat more.

    Being fat is a choice, or more precisely a series of choices one makes , in terms of what to eat and how much and how much calorie burning activities you partake in. There are many factors that make it easier for some to control there weight then others, but everyone can control there weight.
    I agree. Especially about the need for a life style changing revaluation or epiphany. Penalizing people monetarily is unlikely to be productive and would be just another example of the chipping away of our freedoms.

    We live in a remarkable nation where despite everything being stacked against our economy, our economy is still strong enough that food is so abundant that even people with relatively low incomes can eat enough cheaply such that they are over weight. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not making excuses for being over weight. People should be allowed to live their lives as they want to.

  89. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by MendonCycleSmith View Post
    I think you and I end to be more alike than different, so I'll take your post as constructive, as opposed to the alternative.

    Agreed, not everybody is fat by their own hand. My thoughts are aimed straight at the milk shake thirst quenchers out there. The folks with a whole large pizza in front of them, etc. They need to hear that they are really rather disgusting, and the choices they make, affect me and the public in general, both visually, and financially. Folks with Thyroid conditions, cancer requiring constant hormone therapy, etc, are in a whole different class.

    Were I to see someone of immense proportions out exercising, eating a healthy, well proportioned meal, I would feel no need to call out their choices.

    We were on WIC at the suggestion of my wifes doc, since our income was low enough. We'd gone from two incomes to one, so she could stay home with him, we weren't in jobs where we had health care covered, and were service based anyway, so the pay sucked on top of it. But, we were trying to do the right thing, not dump our new born in day care, breast feed for the first year, etc. So we opted to go low rent to do so, no shame in that. If someone chose to shame us for it, I'd simply have informed them that they had their head up the bum.

    Shaming. Were folks made to realize that their neighbors friends, society at large, didn't approve of poor choices they made, particularly when there is no argument other than yep, you made a dumb choice, society would likely be farther ahead. Think how many drug offenders would think twice if they knew they would be embarrassed in public, folks talking on cell phones while driving, say, made to clean up trash while wearing a shirt indicating their poor choice, DWI drivers, name it. More folks realizing they have choices, and still have job, home, family, as opposed to simply paying a fine (ouch, but done in private), going to jail (major life upheaval with limited real life improvement, and usually the opposite problem)....

    As for the rest of it, work in the public school system for a while, perhaps you do (no idea)...

    We enable so many kids so we can keep our graduation rates up, and we do them a grave disservice. The vast bulk of special ed does little to actually help them learn how to cope with their various disabilities, it merely creates a subtle environment where they can get "help" with tests etc by way of multiple choice questions read, with special inflection given on the correct choice, teachers rewriting whole sections of papers for students, etc. If they don't do these things, they aren't considered to be doing a good job, since the kids still fail, and the Ed Board looks bad since grad rates drop.

    Sure, some kids get the help they need, some teachers are worth their weight in gold, but over all, we have a cradle to grave system that teaches those in need to continually use the system, rather than struggle to improve their lot and make their own path in life.
    I do agree that people should be held accountable for their choices. I'm not sure that we are on quite the same page with shaming, but I'll grant that it has it's appropriate place, particularly when their choices affect others.

    I just want to make sure before someone is held accountable for a choice (especially if shaming is part of this), that in fact they have made that choice. This was my point about your receiving WIC assistance. It is unfair to make assumptions and judgement about someone's choices based on limited info.

    The point of my post is that someone being fat is not in and of itself proof of a choice made. I do agree that when you know someone overweight that is making bad choices, it is appropriate to let them know, though I think that of all the approaches to doing so, shaming them is one of the least effective. I think that it is the behavior that should be the issue, not the weight. I think we are likely in agreement on that.


    To go off on a tangent, though.....

    I think the larger problem is that as a culture, we are downright bat-***** schizophrenic crazy when it comes to what tell people they should look like and do about it.

    I think it is interesting that while we have such an obesity problem in this country, at the same time we have real issues with the opposite end as well. I would be willing to bet that most non-overweight women in the US are not happy with there bodies, feeling like they should be slimmer. I was told this by a friend of mine and I did not believe her, but as I brought this up with more women friends of mine, I was really surprised how many of them either felt like they could loose some weight, or acknowledged those feelings and felt pressure even though they knew they were in fact in fine shape. Have you ever seen a mainstream women's magazine that did NOT have something on the cover about slimming down?

    It is interesting you mention schools. I taught for a few years and the pressure on girls to be runway-model thin is incredible. I knew several girls who could have cut it as swimsuit models, yet still thought they should be skinnier. The last place I worked at was a school for fairly dedicated athletes (ski racers), and there was a real problem getting some of these girls to not worry about their weight (they were ALL in top physical shape) as they gained some muscle mass.

    So, our media put out all sorts of images that give kids (and adults) completely unrealistic impressions of what they can and should look like (most people will not look like a fashion model, no matter what they do), and at the same time do everything they can to promote the choices that will make them overweight (half gallon big gulp, anyone?). I think one challenge overweight people face is that they see what they are "supposed" to look like on TV and in magazines, and they know d@mn well they will NEVER look like that. We need a more realistic, healthy image of what is normal, both in terms of what we look like, and what we eat. This needs to be about what is HEALTHY, because THAT is a goal almost everyone can achieve.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kapusta View Post
    Regarding "Slippery Slope" as a tool of argument in any context:

    The "Slippery Slope" idea can be applied to nearly any argument or point of view when talking about what the govt should or should not do or what a law should say. Any action or inaction can be viewed as a "slippery slope" and which way it slopes varies depending on which side you are standing on.
    Considering what a slippery slope entails in the context of this discussion, in my opinion the term slipper slope is quite valid. However, we could call it a freedom eroding legal precedence as well.

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    "People should be allowed to live their lives as they want to."

    EXACTLY!!!!!


    It's there decision to eat, and eat and eat and eat. Yeah sure some say it's due part to genetics, but they could change that if they wanted to.

    And sure fast food is easy to get and affordable. But I'm not sure if I'd eat a burger that if the I were to squeeze it just a little bit the 'juices' would flow out.

    Once again, it is their decision to live that way. IF they are going to be obese let them be that way. If oneself does not want to be obese anymore then he/she should take action and do something about. Like ride a bike.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    I agree. Especially about the need for a life style changing revaluation or epiphany. Penalizing people monetarily is unlikely to be productive and would be just another example of the chipping away of our freedoms.

    We live in a remarkable nation where despite everything being stacked against our economy, our economy is still strong enough that food is so abundant that even people with relatively low incomes can eat enough cheaply such that they are over weight. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not making excuses for being over weight. People should be allowed to live their lives as they want to.
    I think most reasonable people will area that it's not good to call people names because of there weight issues and it's good we can find that common ground.

    I don't however agree that people should be able to live there lives as they want without having to pay the costs to society they create. This has of coarse already been discussed but just wanted to make it clear that I was not implying that just because it's hard to loose weight does not imply that overweight people should be exempt from taking financial responsibility to society for there actions.
    TEX

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    Considering what a slippery slope entails in the context of this discussion, in my opinion the term slipper slope is quite valid. However, we could call it a freedom eroding legal precedence as well.
    Legal precedence is not the same as "slippery slope". Once is very specific and clear, the other makes vague implications based on a dubious analogy.

    If there is a concern that taxing certain foods is setting a legal precedence that is used to erode freedoms, I have my doubts, but that's just me. What exactly do you see this as being a legal precedence for?

    Actually, as far as I know, the govt already CAN do such a thing (tax certain products), so if there is there is any precedence resulting from such an action, it has already been set.

    When I grew up in NJ (it might still be the case), candy was taxed, and regular groceries were not (this got pretty screwy with things like cookies). That was at least 40 years ago, I'm sure the tax structure for that was around long before my time. I am not aware that it has lead to the slippery slope to which you refer, or that a legal precedent was set by that action that was used to erode people's freedoms.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    We're getting hung up on semantics now. Clearly we have very different ideas on what liberty entails.

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    Can we agree on the following?

    People should be able to make their own choices (assuming their choices affect ONLY themselves), but they should also have to bear the costs associated with those choices.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Can we agree on the following?

    People should be able to make their own choices (assuming their choices affect ONLY themselves), but they should also have to bear the costs associated with those choices.

    /thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by NateHawk View Post
    Can we agree on the following?

    People should be able to make their own choices (assuming their choices affect ONLY themselves), but they should also have to bear the costs associated with those choices.

    I can agree to that
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

  98. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2wheelsnotfour View Post
    Clearly we have very different ideas on what liberty entails.
    That may well be the case.
    15mm is a second-best solution to a problem that was already solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by texas View Post
    I see mountain biking as helping me maintain a healthy lifestyle. In the 19 years I have been mountain biking I have never had an injury that required medical treatment, and I ride all of the most technical trails available. Certainly some people get injured some severely. I see mountain biking as an activity that has health risks and benefits for me the health benefits significantly out way the risks. Contrast this to over eating processed foods and being fat, there is no health benefit.

    In general I would have no problems with making someone who is doing an activity that is causing frequent injuries to pay more for health insurance. Kind of like if you keep getting in car accidents your Auto insurance goes up.
    This is how YOU see it, its how the insurance company bean counters see it.
    My son literally drives far safer then I, but because of his age 18, he pays far higher premiums.
    These are my facts not my insurance underwriters.

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    Unhealthy health care workers

    How about when you go to the doctor office and most of the workers there are very overweight..I would think that being on the front line of seeing what being fat does to you would make you think twice about being fat..

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