Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 51
  1. #1
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr. Blonde's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    706

    Homeless in your national forests?

    This spring/summer while traveling I couldn't help but notice the massive number of transients/homeless that now fill the free campgrounds at every national forest I know of. I've always noticed some here and there but lately it seems like they're loading up every empty free campsite in America. Lots of times they look like fairly normal family campsites until you notice that they've been there for weeks. They usually have a Walmart tent and the obligatory blue tarp over said tent. Most of the forests run them off after the two week stay limit and they just move down the road to the next spot. There are entire valleys with dozen of these people that share cars and pool other resources. Many I've talked to are collecting welfare of some sort and don't have any real motivation to get a job any time soon despite a clear ability. They're just kinda hanging out for a while. I understand that life throws tons of $hit at you but I feel it's become a significant problem. Anyone else notice this?

  2. #2
    Hermit
    Reputation: swampboy62's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    905
    Hmmm. I've not noticed it in PA's Allegheny Nat'l Forest. Or down in WV's Monongahela Nat'l Forest. Maybe just a west coast thing? I could see how it could become a problem, though.

    Closest I can think of was a couple of years ago when I ran into a Rainbow gathering in Allegheny NF. Not really the same thing, but it was strange seeing flower children panhandling for change on the side of a NF road waaaay back in the woods.

    Steve Z
    Pedaling when it's dry
    And paddling when it's wet

    My insignificant blog:
    http://swampboy62.blogspot.com/

  3. #3
    mikeb
    Guest
    the boggs mountain demonstration forest here in norcal used to draw these folks all the time; i don't know if it's the same story today. the caretakers started getting tougher in the early part of this decade but with all the cuts to state funding, who knows what's happening up there since then.

    i remember being at a race back in the late nineties when some squatters were there...the campground was full of racers and right in the middle of the whole thing were Mister and Mrs Meth. i'll never forget that wretched skank dragging her poor dog along the road while it was trying to take a crap.

    i also ride a lot in san francisco's golden gate park, which is as full of homeless as a park can be, especially on the eastern end. i have nearly run over homeless gutter punks sleeping ON the trail. seriously. besides that, there are places you REALLY have to be careful about the human feces and you also should give the homeless encampments a wide berth due to the unpredictability of their dogs.

    other than that, i haven't camped or ridden in a national forest in quite a while.
    Last edited by mikeb; 08-05-2011 at 09:09 AM.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
    This spring/summer while traveling I couldn't help but notice the massive number of transients/homeless that now fill the free campgrounds at every national forest I know of. I've always noticed some here and there but lately it seems like they're loading up every empty free campsite in America. Lots of times they look like fairly normal family campsites until you notice that they've been there for weeks. They usually have a Walmart tent and the obligatory blue tarp over said tent. Most of the forests run them off after the two week stay limit and they just move down the road to the next spot. There are entire valleys with dozen of these people that share cars and pool other resources. Many I've talked to are collecting welfare of some sort and don't have any real motivation to get a job any time soon despite a clear ability. They're just kinda hanging out for a while. I understand that life throws tons of $hit at you but I feel it's become a significant problem. Anyone else notice this?
    Not sure if you've been paying attention, but the economy has gone to $hit.
    When one in five is unemployed, or significantly underemployed, this will happen at an increasing rate. I'm glad they are able to stay dry.

  5. #5
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoHeadsBrewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,867
    I don't mind the homeless, but living off welfare (aka other people) when you clearly have the ability to support yourself is complete horse$hit. I also hate seeing the destruction done to our national and state forests by pot growers. They set up camp along creeks and just dump their trash, batteries, chemicals, feces, etc. within a few feet of a stream and just leave it there.

    While the unemployment/welfare thing is a peave, I'm fine with the homeless finding a place to stay in the campgrounds. As long as they clean up after themselves and keep the campground safe for other people, have at it. Enjoy the outdoors in whatever fashion, just preserve it for others.
    "Got everything you need?"

  6. #6
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    I don't mind the homeless, but living off welfare (aka other people) when you clearly have the ability to support yourself is complete horse$hit. I also hate seeing the destruction done to our national and state forests by pot growers. They set up camp along creeks and just dump their trash, batteries, chemicals, feces, etc. within a few feet of a stream and just leave it there.

    While the unemployment/welfare thing is a peave, I'm fine with the homeless finding a place to stay in the campgrounds. As long as they clean up after themselves and keep the campground safe for other people, have at it. Enjoy the outdoors in whatever fashion, just preserve it for others.
    How are you able to so clearly judge their ability to support themselves? What are the determining factors? That scale is a moving scale surely as dictated by market forces...

  7. #7
    mikeb
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    I don't mind the homeless, but living off welfare (aka other people) when you clearly have the ability to support yourself is complete horse$hit. I also hate seeing the destruction done to our national and state forests by pot growers. They set up camp along creeks and just dump their trash, batteries, chemicals, feces, etc. within a few feet of a stream and just leave it there.

    While the unemployment/welfare thing is a peave, I'm fine with the homeless finding a place to stay in the campgrounds. As long as they clean up after themselves and keep the campground safe for other people, have at it. Enjoy the outdoors in whatever fashion, just preserve it for others.
    i respect your opinion, twoheads...but...most people squatting in campgrounds/parks don't give a hoot about cleaning up after themselves.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoHeadsBrewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,867
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    How are you able to so clearly judge their ability to support themselves? What are the determining factors? That scale is a moving scale surely as dictated by market forces...
    I'm not, and never said I was able to. I'm just saying that I know it happens, and it's BS when someone has the ability to work, but they choose to collect welfare instead of looking for work.
    "Got everything you need?"

  9. #9
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by TwoHeadsBrewing View Post
    I'm not, and never said I was able to. I'm just saying that I know it happens, and it's BS when someone has the ability to work, but they choose to collect welfare instead of looking for work.
    Agreed, but being upset about something you can never really discover is pointless.
    Although, Obama's aunt in Boston sure fits the bill... That is one crazy *****!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XIXW23QzTw

  10. #10
    mikeb
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    agreed, but being upset about something you can never really discover is pointless.
    Although, obama's aunt in boston sure fits the bill... That is one crazy *****!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xixw23qztw

    what the hell does obama's aunt have to do with this?

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoHeadsBrewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,867
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    Agreed, but being upset about something you can never really discover is pointless.
    Although, Obama's aunt in Boston sure fits the bill... That is one crazy *****!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XIXW23QzTw
    Abuse of the welfare system is just one of those sad side effects of having it in the first place. I do believe there should indeed be a safety net for disabled, elderly, infirm, and just the plain SOL. The sad part is that welfare gets a bad name from people who abuse the system, which doesn't affect the gainfully employed, but those that actually NEED it. When it's cut, the people in need are screwed and those who don't need it aren't terribly inconvenienced since they have the ability to actually find work.

    What people do with their lives is their own business UNTIL it starts affecting other people adversely. So just as a principle that kind of abuse goes under the "dickbag" category in my book. I'm more than happy to part with some of my earnings every two weeks to help those that need it, in the same way I like to stop when I see someone who has run out of gas in their car. But those people that abuse the system for their own personal gain and/or laziness just bring our whole society down.
    "Got everything you need?"

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    I definitely agree with you there, but these problems of abuse of the welfare system pale in comparison to the abuses by the military industrial complex, to the growing partnership of corporate and government interests and to the eminent bankruptcy of the social security system.
    I think some of the people who have decent jobs and who are able to pay their bills often focus too much of their frustration at the homeless and others that are not doing as well financially as they are when in reality they are all at the same level when compared to the corporate elite that are pulling the strings and collecting more and more of the wealth and depleting the middle class. The poor are just there as a distraction and to divide the common people as they remain ignorantly blissful to the owners of the country systematically depleting the middle class. Soap box complete.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoHeadsBrewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,867
    Well, I've got time to be pissed off at ALL groups abusing and fleecing the system! Nobody gets a pass!
    "Got everything you need?"

  14. #14
    I4NI
    Reputation: S_Trek's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Posts
    1,222
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb View Post
    what the hell does obama's aunt have to do with this?
    LOL! it's her fault
    There....Are... Four...Lights!

  15. #15
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by mikeb View Post
    what the hell does obama's aunt have to do with this?
    She sucks a whole lot more than the squatters in the parks, that's what she has to do with it.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr. Blonde's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    706
    If you can chop fire wood, get water, set up a tent, and maintain a campsite you're capable of working.

  17. #17
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,320
    Wow- just wow. While I strongly agree that "entitlement" is used far too often, we must remember cause & effect. Large funding cuts impacted the mentally impaired, any that got in trouble now reside in correctional facilities, and most now financially burden their families. Cannot imagine this cost.

    Then we bail out the lending industry in hopes to free up lines of credit, and save small business after they increased leveraging from 12:1 --> 40:1. Banks are still hoarding $, and not improved the economy - only their portfolios by tightening lending practices, and unloading toxic assets.

    Now we continue to provide tax breaks to the oil industry, subsidize big agriculture, and the top 1% has grown from 7% to 21% of the population. This perfect storm will be felt for quite some time, and I expect the population of homeless to grow, and that state/national forests will see more semi-permanent residents.

    The GOP needs a wake-up call, and philanthropy in the US needs to grow, it cannot remain a case of the "haves" vs. the "have nots". While I agree that those milking the system suk, there are far too many out of work, and w/o housing to not have some compassion. The OP makes a case that these people are impacting his sanctuary by pooping on the trail. To this I say, better break out the rainshell to prepare for a real ****storm, as the DJIA may fall <8200.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    The GOP needs a wake up call? I think the entirety of Washington needs a wake up call. Both parties are highly responsible for the monstrous public debt burden that has engulfed and stalled the economies.

    Neither party cuts our offense (oops, i mean defense) budget and that should be the first place to cut expenditures.

    We are witnessing the century long folly of federal reserve banking which has transformed a limited role of government into a government that has access to a money printing press that is being used to buy votes and funnel money to their corporate friends who get them elected. This problem is not one sided and both parties, all involved are culprits of this action. However, they are only in the positions they are in because the corporate interests that own the media make sure the candidates that will help them are the ones that get elected. Thinking one side is worse than the other when the mechanisms that get them all elected are the same is short sighted.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
    If you can chop fire wood, get water, set up a tent, and maintain a campsite you're capable of working.
    Capable of working and capable of getting a job are two very different things. So, as long as they put on their resume that they can do those things, they should get hired? Who knew it was so easy!

  20. #20
    How much further ???
    Reputation: Douger-1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    2,370
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    The GOP needs a wake up call? I think the entirety of Washington needs a wake up call. Both parties are highly responsible for the monstrous public debt burden that has engulfed and stalled the economies.

    Neither party cuts our offense (oops, i mean defense) budget and that should be the first place to cut expenditures.

    We are witnessing the century long folly of federal reserve banking which has transformed a limited role of government into a government that has access to a money printing press that is being used to buy votes and funnel money to their corporate friends who get them elected. This problem is not one sided and both parties, all involved are culprits of this action. However, they are only in the positions they are in because the corporate interests that own the media make sure the candidates that will help them are the ones that get elected. Thinking one side is worse than the other when the mechanisms that get them all elected are the same is short sighted.
    Well said.
    “Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did." Mark Twain

  21. #21
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,320
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    I think the entirety of Washington needs a wake up call. Both parties are highly responsible for the monstrous public debt burden that has engulfed and stalled the economies.
    --
    To this I agree. My comment aimed at the few nihilistic members of the GOP who'd rather push us into a major double dip recession rather than jeopardize their re-elections is where my comment was aimed. The current administration did not create this train wreck, they inherited it. For all the posturing going on here in DC one would think otherwise. I don't think as a whole we're that ignorant. So, yes one party IS trying to pee on my leg and tell me it's raining outside..
    Enough politico BS - time to go for a ride!

  22. #22
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin'W View Post
    --
    To this I agree. My comment aimed at the few nihilistic members of the GOP who'd rather push us into a major double dip recession rather than jeopardize their re-elections is where my comment was aimed. The current administration did not create this train wreck, they inherited it. For all the posturing going on here in DC one would think otherwise. I don't think as a whole we're that ignorant. So, yes one party IS trying to pee on my leg and tell me it's raining outside..
    Enough politico BS - time to go for a ride!
    Who said they wanted to push the nation into a double dip recession? I don't believe anyone has that intention, and if the media is telling you that a few people are doing this evil act, well, since this is the same media that helps you choose politicians that are there only to serve corporate interests, maybe the theory that you fully subscribe to is just that, a theory, and possibly an incorrect one at that. When a theory is pushed as fact by the mass media you can be pretty sure that the theory is only going to lead to more money and power to the elite owners of the country and a continued depletion of the middle class. It has been the recipe for the past few decades and most are still in denial... I call the United States of America the United State of Denial.

    The default is happening either way. The debasing of the currency to pay for expenditures that were budgeted, but could never be paid in the first place is the default. The raising of the debt ceiling just increases the odds that the default will happen when the holders of our debt/investors decide that there are better avenues to invest their money. And, all that needed to be done was to not raise the debt ceiling and roll back government spending to the levels of 2004. Interest can be paid on debts and no default is necessary. The game of spending more to fix a monstrous debt problem is not going to end well...

  23. #23
    mtbr member
    Reputation: TwoHeadsBrewing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,867
    I think the GOP does want the recession to continue, but not to hurt anyone. They know, as the Democrats know, that if the economy doesn't do well Obama and the other Democrats will have a harder time getting re-elected. Along the same lines of this thinking, they do not want any legislation to pass that has Obama's name on it because this makes him look like he is in control. He has passed health care legislation (however pointless it is), he was the CIC when they killed Bin Laden. If he can claim he has also improved the economy during his first term, the Republicans are through. They will have no good reason why he should not continue to lead the nation.

    This is just politics as usual, and not unique behavior to the Republican party. This is the cost of having career politicians. The interest they have in improving our country is heavily counteracted by their desire to remain employed. If the other side wins, they are out of work.
    "Got everything you need?"

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    200

    No

    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    Thinking one side is worse than the other when the mechanisms that get them all elected are the same is short sighted.
    Are unable to form a helpful opinion?

    I only ask because your both sides are the same spiel is for the ignorant. You think Bush junior's and Clinton's policies were basically the same? Of course they weren't and anybody with even a slight grasp of the world they live in would recognize this. You don't have to pick a Party, but if you going to inform people of how politicians and parties are, at least try to grasp the obvious.

    No, both sides may suck in differing ways, but they are not the same.
    "What kind of bike? I don't know, I'm not a bike scientist."

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by kapaso View Post
    Are unable to form a helpful opinion?

    I only ask because your both sides are the same spiel is for the ignorant. You think Bush junior's and Clinton's policies were basically the same? Of course they weren't and anybody with even a slight grasp of the world they live in would recognize this. You don't have to pick a Party, but if you going to inform people of how politicians and parties are, at least try to grasp the obvious.

    No, both sides may suck in differing ways, but they are not the same.
    They both believe in domestic and foreign intervention, they both believe in a flawed federal reserve system, they both support the war on drugs, they both embrace the idea of America as the world police, they both support welfarism. The differences in where they choose to apply these ideals are minute to some people (people who actually believe in freedom and liberty), but are seen as major differences by the mass of progressives that this nation is comprised of. Then those progressives go ahead and tout their own intellectual superiority by insulting those that think differently than they do and belittle them by telling them that they can't "grasp the obvious." The obvious is that debts have been soaring since the 70's and that government continues to grow and continues to undermine freedom and liberty and this has been perpetrated by both parties.

    Big issues of our generation:
    Patriot Act - Both parties support
    Foreign interventionist policy - Both parties support
    War on Drugs - Both parties support
    Financing Govt debt through the Federal Reserve System - Both Parties Support
    Federally Driven Education Program - Both Parties Support
    IRS and Income Tax System - Both Parties Support

    The err is thinking that because small percentages are different in the big picture that somehow there is some stark contrast...

  26. #26
    mikeb
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    The GOP needs a wake up call? I think the entirety of Washington needs a wake up call. Both parties are highly responsible for the monstrous public debt burden that has engulfed and stalled the economies.

    Neither party cuts our offense (oops, i mean defense) budget and that should be the first place to cut expenditures.

    We are witnessing the century long folly of federal reserve banking which has transformed a limited role of government into a government that has access to a money printing press that is being used to buy votes and funnel money to their corporate friends who get them elected. This problem is not one sided and both parties, all involved are culprits of this action. However, they are only in the positions they are in because the corporate interests that own the media make sure the candidates that will help them are the ones that get elected. Thinking one side is worse than the other when the mechanisms that get them all elected are the same is short sighted.
    yes. well said, indeed.

    i say we should lock them all up and start over again from scratch.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    200
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    They both believe in domestic and foreign intervention, they both believe in a flawed federal reserve system, they both support the war on drugs, they both embrace the idea of America as the world police, they both support welfarism. The differences in where they choose to apply these ideals are minute to some people (people who actually believe in freedom and liberty), but are seen as major differences by the mass of progressives that this nation is comprised of. Then those progressives go ahead and tout their own intellectual superiority by insulting those that think differently than they do and belittle them by telling them that they can't "grasp the obvious." The obvious is that debts have been soaring since the 70's and that government continues to grow and continues to undermine freedom and liberty and this has been perpetrated by both parties.

    Big issues of our generation:
    Patriot Act - Both parties support
    Foreign interventionist policy - Both parties support
    War on Drugs - Both parties support
    Financing Govt debt through the Federal Reserve System - Both Parties Support
    Federally Driven Education Program - Both Parties Support
    IRS and Income Tax System - Both Parties Support

    The err is thinking that because small percentages are different in the big picture that somehow there is some stark contrast...
    I'm sorry, but their is a big difference between support and spearhead. I recognize your point, but I do not believe the Democrats would have led the country down the same path as Junior did. Nor do I believe the Democrats would purposefully sabotage the country the way the tea party has.

    Led is the big difference in my view. Did the Democrats vote for many of the disastrous decisions made during the last decade?

    Yes they did, and I do believe the Democrats are mostly spineless, corporate sellouts with little shame, but compared to the outright disregard for America's future the Republicans have shown the Democrats look fairly benign.

    Their are some fundamental differences in the parties and if you look at how "The New Deal" has shaped the country, you can clearly see the effects of that in everyday America. The EPA also comes to mind, do you like clean air and water? One party has a much better track record than the other. We need to separate our politicians from special interest/corporate money through campaign finance reform and then we maybe able to reign in our government. What party gives you the best chance of that?

    The Democrats give you a slightly better shot at bringing this country back in line, IMO.
    "What kind of bike? I don't know, I'm not a bike scientist."

  28. #28
    Live 2 Ride
    Reputation: Kona0197's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,962
    Question. Can we blame Obama for the state of current affairs or is it our fault for electing poor leaders who choose to argue instead of making good choices to move America forward?
    My Bike: '15 Trek FX 7.2
    My Blog: http://http://kona0197.wordpress.com/

  29. #29
    Plays with tools
    Reputation: customfab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,449
    haven't noticed bums, but in the state park in my home town they found a meth lab 100 yards off the trail. Not sure which I would rather have honestly.

  30. #30
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    102
    Isn't this a mountain biking forum?

  31. #31
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MoabiSlim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    303
    In Economics, I believe the equation goes something like this:

    NAFTA + High Unemployment + Failing Dollar + Lack of Innovation + High (War) Debt = HOMELESSNESS
    God gave birds, wings to fly .... He gave us, Jamis!

  32. #32
    bust a move
    Reputation: 2ridealot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,978
    Here in central FL we have a large homeless pop. Not so much in the NF but in undeveloped areas near neighborhoods and cites.

  33. #33
    Master of the Face Plant
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Posts
    2,902
    Solutions:
    Term limits.
    Outlaw corporate political contributions.
    Any and all comunications with lobbyists must be recorded and available to the public.
    Cap personal spending on campaigns.
    Legalize Pot.

    Don't get me wrong here, there are a few politicians that believe in what they are doing but lets be honest, they are all rich and powerful. The only thing we have as citizens to threaten them with is taking away what they love the most, money and power.
    http://www.nbbikes.com/
    ^^^Best Bike Shop of MTBR 2008^^^

  34. #34
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by kapaso View Post
    I'm sorry, but their is a big difference between support and spearhead. I recognize your point, but I do not believe the Democrats would have led the country down the same path as Junior did. Nor do I believe the Democrats would purposefully sabotage the country the way the tea party has.

    Led is the big difference in my view. Did the Democrats vote for many of the disastrous decisions made during the last decade?

    Yes they did, and I do believe the Democrats are mostly spineless, corporate sellouts with little shame, but compared to the outright disregard for America's future the Republicans have shown the Democrats look fairly benign.

    Their are some fundamental differences in the parties and if you look at how "The New Deal" has shaped the country, you can clearly see the effects of that in everyday America. The EPA also comes to mind, do you like clean air and water? One party has a much better track record than the other. We need to separate our politicians from special interest/corporate money through campaign finance reform and then we maybe able to reign in our government. What party gives you the best chance of that?

    The Democrats give you a slightly better shot at bringing this country back in line, IMO.
    I believe that both parties, as they have acted in the past several decades, have a zero percent chance of bringing prosperity back to American citizens. Until either one can address fractional reserve banking and monetary policy as a whole I will forever believe both groups to be progressive groups that believe in the government as the lender of last resort and who will both use fear in order to push corporate agendas. The democrats use fear as they egg on those who depend on social security and medicare and the republicans use fear to egg on those who are scared of terrorism. Both lead to exponentially increasing public debt with no solution to that problem and therefore are in the same category to me.
    The only people I've heard who have real solutions to these problems are Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Everyone else is either talking the talk, but doing nothing, or are just complete hypocrites. I guess it's easier to hate the complete hypocrites and say they are worse, but they are both horrible and using the same devices to divide the public, to grow debts and to further the destruction to the middle class.

    In regards to specifics, such as the EPA. The EPA was never necessary to be a permanent division. The issues can be handled in terms property ownership. Water is ruined? Law suit for the damages of public property. Specifically in regards to BP spill, gallons of water ruined at the market rate for water + livestock depleted + whatever else a lawyer can think of = money owned to the public. A portion of that lawsuit will go to the businesses that lost money as a result at a rate that can be compared to previous years revenues, the rest will go to the treasury. The regulations make way for corporations to plunder with much less consequence than they would have if they were just held to the original laws of defending property.

    In regards to speculating how Clinton, or Kerry (or some other democrat) would have reacted to 9/11 and how much expenditures would be tallied as a result of "self defense," I'd say it's a very tough argument to say they would have been better. Clinton was bombing Iraq during the Lewinski trials and our aggression in the Middle East is a major catalyst for extreme fundamentalists to want to attack the United States. The 9/11 commission report itself stated that 1 of the 3 major reasons for the 9/11 attacks was due to blowback from our intervention in the Middle East. Clinton initiated fresh attacks in his time as President. The Patriot Act itself was drawn up prior to the attacks of 9/11, so it's not as simple as saying that is the fault/doing of Bush and his administration. It was in place and ready to go when the right time presented itself...

    And to those annoyed that this isn't about mountain biking and how you hate political discussions. Don't read it. If there's one important things Americans should be talking about it is about the system that we live in that sets the rules for how we are allowed to behave within this system. The notion of making the topic taboo kills intelligent discourse and allows for the elite to continue to make new laws that inhibit your privacy and your ability to behave in a way you wish to behave. It's okay if you want to be an apathetic system unable to think critically, but you can leave your attempts to make everyone be just like you in that regard to yourself. Some of us want to actually think about, and discuss this system with the hope of improving it for our children and grandchildren instead of continue the trend towards a fascist beast that is only economically alive through the destruction of other countries that happen to have appealing natural resources.

  35. #35
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Mr. Blonde's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    706
    No. No. No, This isn't a politics discussion. The economy sucks. Boom. That's all that needs to be said about politics here. I was just curious how many people have noticed this. These people are capable of working and you can trust me when I say they don't even begin to respect the land. I just have a problem with people that live rent free at the expense of working taxpayers. If a family goes to a forest for a weekend this summer should they be forced to find backcountry camping or leave the forest for a hotel because there are 18 homeless camps dominating every valley? I'm seeing this scenario daily now. Eighteen is how many I counted on my ride today. I just think it's gotten out of hand.

  36. #36
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by sandmangts View Post
    Solutions:
    Term limits.
    Outlaw corporate political contributions.
    Any and all comunications with lobbyists must be recorded and available to the public.
    Cap personal spending on campaigns.
    Legalize Pot.

    Don't get me wrong here, there are a few politicians that believe in what they are doing but lets be honest, they are all rich and powerful. The only thing we have as citizens to threaten them with is taking away what they love the most, money and power.
    Term limits will do nothing - The elections are guided by the mainstream media and will sway public opinion to the candidates that will help their cause just as they have in the past.
    Outlawing political contributions from corporations may just result in individuals donating those funds on behalf of those corporations and might make the donations even harder to track. Although, I agree with you on principle, at least now we can find out where the money is coming from, which brings me to your idea to limit campaign funds. My idea would be to limit all campaigns to $10,000. You get a website and some TV ads and that's it. You can enter debates, primaries and go and meet people, but that's all you get. Perhaps you could up the presidential campaign to $100k to allow for more advertising. But, there's no need for so much money to be spent. A website is cheap and can give everyone everything they need to know about a candidate. Eliminate the glitz and glamor and let's get to content. If you're poor and don't have internet access, go to the public library. Less money to the campaigns means more money to the public as well so it even would help the economy.
    Prohibition of all drugs should eventually end. I agree that pot should be the first one to decriminalize. I'm okay with having individual states set and enforce their own laws, so if they want to make pot, or alcohol, or tobacco illegal, they can do so through their local representatives, but on a federal level, there should be no war on drugs. Our country is called the free world, yet we have the highest incarceration rate of any country on the planet and more than half of those in jail are there for non violent crimes. It's depressing and the action goes against all scientific data in regards to how to treat drug use.

  37. #37
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Blonde View Post
    No. No. No, This isn't a politics discussion. The economy sucks. Boom. That's all that needs to be said about politics here. I was just curious how many people have noticed this. These people are capable of working and you can trust me when I say they don't even begin to respect the land. I just have a problem with people that live rent free at the expense of working taxpayers. If a family goes to a forest for a weekend this summer should they be forced to find backcountry camping or leave the forest for a hotel because there are 18 homeless camps dominating every valley? I'm seeing this scenario daily now. Eighteen is how many I counted on my ride today. I just think it's gotten out of hand.
    Wah, wah, wah. I want to complain about the problem and I want it to go away without thinking about how the problem was created in the first place...
    Capable of working and able to find a job or two very different things. I know many capable people who are looking for jobs but are either underqualified or overqualified and get turned down for job after job. This continues for a couple years and this person is screwed... If you find they are disrespecting your area, you, and your riding group should confront them, tell them you are sympathetic to what they are experiencing and that it you would really appreciate it if they did not litter on the public land that you're sharing with them...

  38. #38
    Live 2 Ride
    Reputation: Kona0197's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,962
    Danhasdrums - Well said and I agree. As for the jail thing isn't it strange that a murderer gets 10 years while a drug dealer gets 25 to life?
    My Bike: '15 Trek FX 7.2
    My Blog: http://http://kona0197.wordpress.com/

  39. #39
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,445
    Quote Originally Posted by DirtOnTheBrain View Post
    Isn't this a mountain biking forum?
    Hahaha, Unbelievable isn't it.
    Glad to see so many have a brain and agree with mostly everyones view, but especially "mikeb" for saying "we should lock them all up and start over from scratch". Don't know if they're all worthless, selfish, pieces of sh#t who should go to jail. I'd like to think there are still some who still care about the country, the people that elected them and the future. But clearly we should start over from scratch. The system of government we have now just feeds itself, and poloticians are looking at how to get re-elected, or what board they're gonna sit on when they can't. Yes I agree that dems are a better choice as a whole than rep's as we know them today, but they're mostly all lawyers and althou there's a place for lawyers in government, I don't think the entire government should be run by them. They don't learn how to do anything real or worthy except how to win an argument. Even when they know they're wrong. And a rep from 30 years ago would be considered a dem by todays standards.
    I mean come on. Congress can't do anything but fight and worry about who looks better, or less worse in this disaster of a government. The reps won't give an inch on raising taxes for the rich, which it's been proven throughout our history to help economy, Reps only want to cut spending, which I agree with but not right now. If businesses and people aren't spending, which is stalling the economy, the government has to or kabloom. Adah. So the dems just cave and they all go on vacation for a month. Yes that's right. they decided to give themselves the month of August off. As a matter of fact, they decided, for themselves, to work 23 of the 52 weeks in this year. Does anyone else feel like there's something wrong with this picture. I always thought, and was tought that you get rewarded for doing a good job.

    2 things come to mind throu all this BS.
    -Democracy might be the best form of government, so far that I know of, but like all other forms of government before it, it too will fail
    -It has to get worse before it'll get better.
    Round and round we go

  40. #40
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    Quote Originally Posted by theMeat View Post
    2 things come to mind throu all this BS.
    -Democracy might be the best form of government, so far that I know of, but like all other forms of government before it, it too will fail
    -It has to get worse before it'll get better.
    This country was supposed to be more Republic and less Democracy because democracies have been shown to always fail. And yes, I'm guessing it will get a whole lot worse. Glad I have an awesome bike to keep me happy.

  41. #41
    Live 2 Ride
    Reputation: Kona0197's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    5,962
    Guess it's time to move to Canada.

    I heard the other day that Mexico has a lower unemployment rate than we do. Wonder why we can't turn things around.
    My Bike: '15 Trek FX 7.2
    My Blog: http://http://kona0197.wordpress.com/

  42. #42
    mikeb
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Kona0197 View Post
    Danhasdrums - Well said and I agree. As for the jail thing isn't it strange that a murderer gets 10 years while a drug dealer gets 25 to life?
    a reflection of the barbaric times we live in...

  43. #43
    banned
    Reputation: Mojo Troll's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    1,095
    I cant recall ever camping for free in a NF campground. I've always had to pay.

  44. #44
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 11 Bravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    964
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    .................... which brings me to your idea to limit campaign funds. My idea would be to limit all campaigns to $10,000. You get a website and some TV ads and that's it. You can enter debates, primaries and go and meet people, but that's all you get............................... .

    I generally avoid anything even resembling a political debate anymore, they seem to just turn into name calling and mud throwing contests. However, you guys seem to be keeping this one pretty sane, so I will respond with a couple of points I think are valid.

    Why do we have any federal election laws other than for presidential elections? All other election laws should be state laws. The presidential election is the only national election we have in this country. Think about it. If you are running for a senate or house seat in your state, you are only competing with other residents of the same state. The state sets the rules, you all play on the same field. We need to keep the federal government and the stupid, incomprehensible laws they come up with to a minimum.

    The term limits thing always makes me laugh a little. People can limit the terms of these worthless politicians any time they want right now. It is called voting them out. You see polls that show that 95% of people support term limits. The very next election, 95% of the incumbents get re-elected. Apparently, the vast majority of people who support term limits simply vote for a name they recognize.

    What would do more to tackle the corruption problems with the politicians in this country would be to completely scrap the tax code we have now. I honestly think we need to do away with the system of income tax and replace it with a consumption tax. A simple national sales tax with no deductions. Get rid of the IRS. You would not even have to file a tax return anymore because nothing would be withheld from your check. Make all the money you can, we'll get the tax when you spend it. Illegals, criminals and under the table workers would all get to be part of the revenue to support the country. There wouldn't even need to be a corporate tax rate at all. If a business buys something, they pay tax on it. Cut all the crap and have the tax code truly be about generating revenue rather than a give away system to whoever has the best lobbyists. This one thing would really help the economy get rolling and stay rolling.

    I don't want to get started on the EPA. They have long ago stopped serving the real purpose of protecting the environment and turned into a club the government uses to beat business to death. Don't get me wrong, there needs to be government regulations on business. But honestly, we are so over-regulated now that you can hardly do business here. People love to say business go overseas for the cheap labor. Labor costs are nothing compared to the cost of government compliance. OK. That is enough on that.

    A guy could go on all night about the things that need changed, but I will force myself to shut down on just those couple.
    Last edited by 11 Bravo; 08-05-2011 at 10:20 PM.
    I'm not very smart, but I can lift heavy things

  45. #45
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    951
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    They both believe in domestic and foreign intervention, they both believe in a flawed federal reserve system, they both support the war on drugs, they both embrace the idea of America as the world police, they both support welfarism. The differences in where they choose to apply these ideals are minute to some people (people who actually believe in freedom and liberty), but are seen as major differences by the mass of progressives that this nation is comprised of. Then those progressives go ahead and tout their own intellectual superiority by insulting those that think differently than they do and belittle them by telling them that they can't "grasp the obvious." The obvious is that debts have been soaring since the 70's and that government continues to grow and continues to undermine freedom and liberty and this has been perpetrated by both parties.

    Big issues of our generation:
    Patriot Act - Both parties support
    Foreign interventionist policy - Both parties support
    War on Drugs - Both parties support
    Financing Govt debt through the Federal Reserve System - Both Parties Support
    Federally Driven Education Program - Both Parties Support
    IRS and Income Tax System - Both Parties Support

    The err is thinking that because small percentages are different in the big picture that somehow there is some stark contrast...
    dude, you forgot the BIGGEST welfare leeches in the US, thats goldman sachs, morgan stanley and the rest of their buddies. its private capitalism on the upside, when those a55holes are making money, but when the investment turns sour, they get bailed out on the taxpayer dime (economists call this "lack of moral hazard"). the amounts involved are mind boggling (makes the meth-heads working the welfare system for food stamps seem as inconsequential as they really are).

    look at AIG---the ONLY counterparty to be made whole w/ govt funds was goldman sachs. the treasury, fed and SEC are loaded w/ GS alums---coincidence?
    94 Specialized Rockhopper

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation: theMeat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    4,445
    Quote Originally Posted by danhasdrums View Post
    This country was supposed to be more Republic and less Democracy because democracies have been shown to always fail. And yes, I'm guessing it will get a whole lot worse. Glad I have an awesome bike to keep me happy.
    Key word being supposed to be. It was set up that way but the way it looks today the sovereignty is in big money and big business.
    It's controlled from the start. Being smart and well intended will not get you elected so ?Plus I do not think people have the power or will to go against the powers that be any longer. The people are afraid of and for the government, and the government not afraid of or for the people. Most buy into the propoganda that what should be OUR media pushes lock stock and barrel. The government realized it had to get a handle on that after Vitenam. That's why the only way I see it getting better is if it gets worse.

    So ya, I agree with you, I'm also glad I have a few things in life like my myb to take me to my "happy place", but sadly, until alot more people have less happy places, nothing's gonna change
    Round and round we go

  47. #47
    Nickel Havr
    Reputation: Eckstream1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,177
    Quote Originally Posted by swampboy62 View Post
    Hmmm. I've not noticed it in PA's Allegheny Nat'l Forest. Or down in WV's Monongahela Nat'l Forest. Maybe just a west coast thing? I could see how it could become a problem, though.

    Closest I can think of was a couple of years ago when I ran into a Rainbow gathering in Allegheny NF. Not really the same thing, but it was strange seeing flower children panhandling for change on the side of a NF road waaaay back in the woods.

    Steve Z


    There is a group of homeless people living on Mt. Penn in Reading,Pa...
    I noticed a campsite tucked in just off one of the major trails.
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blake
    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

  48. #48
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dirtdan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,619
    11Bravo - I agree on every account
    dth656 - I agree with you too, except I wouldn't equate anything with those companies to any form of capitalism. In a capitalistic system, those banks would have gone bankrupt and would likely no longer exist.
    theMeat - I agree with you too about things getting worse, and that it will take that bring about change, but I hope that people find more happiness when they have less and prioritize the important things in their lives better and as a result find more happiness than they could have imagined.

    good dialog all!

  49. #49
    mtbr member
    Reputation: MoabiSlim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    303
    Just one more thing about the Homeless...

    If this damned Economy goes a few more inches South, we won't be on the Internet talkin' bout 'em, will be sittin' on the log talkin' to 'em!
    God gave birds, wings to fly .... He gave us, Jamis!

  50. #50
    mikeb
    Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MoabiSlim View Post
    Just one more thing about the Homeless...

    If this damned Economy goes a few more inches South, we won't be on the Internet talkin' bout 'em, will be sittin' on the log talkin' to 'em!
    you ain't kiddin'.

    god forbid i ever have to sell the ibis before it breaks...i would rather sell what teeth i have left in my head...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Visits To National Forests Decline
    By Dave_schuldt in forum Washington
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 11-30-2008, 07:20 AM
  2. Protect Mountain Biking in Colorado's National Forests
    By gotdirt in forum Colorado - Front Range
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-21-2008, 04:18 PM
  3. Bush is trying to sell our National Forests
    By Porchsong in forum Trail Building and Advocacy
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 03-22-2006, 03:04 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •