Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 100 of 245
  1. #1
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169

    Chinese carbon: why I buy direct

    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  2. #2
    mtbr member
    Reputation: pop_martian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    1,657
    Being made in the same factory doesn't make them the same. It's the guy that spends months designing the frame that counts. Aren't Ferrari and Fiat made in the same factory now? Clearly there is still a difference in those vehicles. Again, a bicycle factory has the capacity to make whatever frame the engineers from Trek, Specialized, Giant etc. have programed their machines to make. It is silly to think that all frames from one factory are equal.
    "Donuts. Is there anything they can't do?"

  3. #3
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    It is equally silly to pay a premium for a brand name. The compression shirt sold by Walmart for $10 is the same as Under Armour or Nike at quadruple the price. The only difference is the logo.

    Certainly a bicycle frame is more complicated than a shirt. The trick is to find one that is the rough equivalent of one that says "Specialized" or "Scott" or whatever and similarly get it for 1/4 the price. They are out there. I have three, two road and one mountain, all more than 3 years old. Still working, still light. Since I am not out there either to win races or to pose, what the hell do I care if my knock off frames are not perfectly the same as the brand name? And if any of them break at this point what the hell do I care about a warranty? I just buy another for $400 or so.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  4. #4
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Brewtality's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    5,666
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    And if any of them break at this point what the hell do I care about a warranty? I just buy another for $400 or so.
    You might care if the break is catastrophic in nature and causes you injury

    Buying knocks offs is no different than stealing from the company that designed that particular frame.
    Its all Shits and Giggles until somebody Giggles and Shits

  5. #5
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    You might care if the break is catastrophic in nature and causes you injury

    Buying knocks offs is no different than stealing from the company that designed that particular frame.


    Yes! Excellent points. The reality is that some people will never care if it is stealing or not, as long as they get theirs it doesn't matter.

  6. #6
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    There is a world of difference between a flat out counterfeit, or a patent violation,or a copyright violation - all of which are indeed theft - and the Chinese carbon frames I own.

    The Chinese frame may be a rough imitation of a brand name - or it may be original - , but so long as it is not a complete counterfeit or patent/copyright violation, it is fair game in the market.

    If a cheap ass consumer like me wants to buy one, and assumes the risk of quality , what's the problem?

    I can either believe that Specialized or Scott or whoever has unique designs, using this carbon weave in the toptube and downtube, and that weave in the chain and seat stays, and the frames are thoroughly tested for quality control, and therefore worth the huge premium for the brand name - or I can figure the unpainted generic chinese frame is close enough in all respects to the brand names at 1/4 the price, and take the risk.

    I would not fall for a $500 "Specialized" counterfeit; and would not stoop to buying a total rip off of some company's work product. In between, it's my money and my body.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  7. #7
    banned
    Reputation: roadie scum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    773
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Yes! Excellent points. The reality is that some people will never care if it is stealing or not, as long as they get theirs it doesn't matter.




    /\ This x eleventy billion. Some people just seem to be able to justify anything as long as it falls in their favor.

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,425
    If youre not racing and posing why bother with carbon in the first place? Ill take my $1000 aluminum bike over a knock off carbon piece any day of the week.
    2010 Giant Yukon FX
    Pure XCR Wheelset/Geax Saguaro Tires/Tubeless
    Bike Weight Lost: 2.48lbs (1124g)

  9. #9
    MTBR member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    803
    I don't agree with the OP at all. However, if companies decide to do business in China, they set themselves up for counterfeiting. I imagine it's like pilfering, they chaulk it up as a part of doing business in China.

  10. #10
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Great, one more "is the same as" thread.

    I like cheap frames and components as much (if not more) than the next guy. But if I buy a no-name frame and like the way it rides, that's enough for me.

    Why do you have to make the "is the same as" claim? First, you don't really know it is the same. You think because it looks the same and may come from the same factory, it must be the same. That's just not necessarily true. There may be differences that are not obvious, or it may be the same. I honestly don't know, but what I do know is that you really don't know either.

    Second, if you don't think the big names have anything special to offer, why do you need to justify your no-name purchase by claiming it's the "same as" or "it's made in the same factory as"? Why not just post about the merits of your frame?
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  11. #11
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post





    Ahhhhhh, aspirations of mediocrity.

  12. #12
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by trailville View Post
    Great, one more "is the same as" thread.

    I like cheap frames and components as much (if not more) than the next guy. But if I buy a no-name frame and like the way it rides, that's enough for me.

    Why do you have to make the "is the same as" claim? First, you don't really know it is the same. You think because it looks the same and may come from the same factory, it must be the same. That's just not necessarily true. There may be differences that are not obvious, or it may be the same. I honestly don't know, but what I do know is that you really don't know either.

    Second, if you don't think the big names have anything special to offer, why do you need to justify your no-name purchase by claiming it's the "same as" or "it's made in the same factory as"? Why not just post about the merits of your frame?

    Thanks for your inacurate and off the wall summary of the posts.

    Re-read the thread and try again.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  13. #13
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Thanks for your inacurate and off the wall summary of the posts.

    Re-read the thread and try again.
    I did read your posts and the link article before posting. Your first post had a link to an article saying most of these frames come for the same factory, and your post said that's the reason you buy these no-name carbon frames. So I don't see how anyone could interpret that at anythong other than that because the frames from the big names are made there, that your no-name frame is somehow the same. If not, please try to explain the point you were making with your 1st post.

    Your second post started out by saying "compression shirt sold by Walmart for $10 is the same as Under Armour or Nike at quadruple the price" (something else you're guessing at). and then proceeded to acknowledge that the bike frames may not be exact, but still had to make the comparisons to the big brands. Again, what is your point here?

    Is there no way for you to describe your frame without mentioning the big names?

    Several years ago I purchased an RST F1RST fork when RST was trying to get into the higher-end fork business. They were clearing them out and at that price I figured they were worth a shot. I recall back then how there were posts talking about how RST used to make forks for some of the big names. That had nothing to do with the RST fork that was being sold but apparently some people (like you) need to use these bogus comparisons to feel good about their purchase. It was an OK fork for the money and I was happy with the purchase, but it was not the same as (or even similar to) the higher end forks I have form the big names, and anyone that thought they were getting an equivelent product were simply deluding themselves.

    Then there was the never ending thread on those bikes Target was selling that were "the same as" the big brand bikes. And they also made that conculusion because they claimed they were made at the same factory and looked similar. Your post is "the same as" that thread. You clearly have some type of brand envy going on and need to justify your purchase by believing your bike is the same as one that cost much more. Can you not just justify your pruchase on how you like the frame you got?

    I've been a tool guy for over 30 years. I have tools from big name companies and I have cheap tools from places like Harbor Freight. My cheap tools serve the purpose I intended to use them for, but in no way do I think that these cheap tools are as good as SnapOn or Craftsman, etc.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,425
    To bad the new Craftsman stuff is getting as bad as the harbor freight stuff. And craftsman toolboxs are getting up into the tool truck price region. I dont forsee craftsman doing much in the near future. Personally, I like my Matco stuff.
    2010 Giant Yukon FX
    Pure XCR Wheelset/Geax Saguaro Tires/Tubeless
    Bike Weight Lost: 2.48lbs (1124g)

  15. #15
    Clyde on a mission!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    719
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    Buying knocks offs is no different than stealing from the company that designed that particular frame.
    Are you actually sure about that? I doubt that a bike manufacturer can patent a specific geometry, material choice or production method.

    1) Lets say you have a Trek that you really like and it gets stolen. Rather than buying a new one, you decide to fire up the old welder, bend some tubing and build a bike yourself. Knowing that your old Trek were a great ride you choose to use the same geometry for your home made bike. Does that make you a thief? Do Trek own that particular geometry so that you can't use it too?

    2) Another line of thought. Lets say that you fancy designing a bike from scratch. You bend tubes and weld for years until you finally end up with your perfect bike. By coincidence the geometry happens to be exactly the same as a Santa Cruz model, does that make you a thief? Does Santa Cruz own the rights to that particular geometry?

    3) You're an aspiring bike builder. You buy some bikes and take them apart to look for clever solutions to incorporate in your own bikes. After hacking a bunch of frames to pieces it turns out that Kona does something really clever with the thickness of the tubing, using thicker tubes in some areas of the frame and thinner tube in others. Does learning from that and using similar choices on your bikes make you a thief? Does Kona own the rights to make a thick head tube and a lighter down tube?

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    To bad the new Craftsman stuff is getting as bad as the harbor freight stuff. And craftsman toolboxs are getting up into the tool truck price region. I dont forsee craftsman doing much in the near future. Personally, I like my Matco stuff.
    Uh oh, did I just move this thread off topic? Maybe not a bad thing
    I think the Craftsman hand tools (mechanic tools) are still pretty good quality. The power tools are pretty much typical of the standard department store stuff with brand names (Skill, B&D, etc), nothing special but still pretty good.
    A lot of the harbor freight stuff is really low end though. But for specialty tools that you use so infrequently that you couldn't justify buying the higher quality version, so your choice is to either not have that tool or try to get buy with a lower quality one, I've done OK taking a chance on the HF stuff (though sometimes you get complete crap that doesn't even work).
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  17. #17
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Are you actually sure about that? I doubt that a bike manufacturer can patent a specific geometry, material choice or production method.
    Ask Trek about G2 geometry.
    1) Lets say you have a Trek that you really like and it gets stolen. Rather than buying a new one, you decide to fire up the old welder, bend some tubing and build a bike yourself. Knowing that your old Trek were a great ride you choose to use the same geometry for your home made bike. Does that make you a thief? Do Trek own that particular geometry so that you can't use it too? See above.

    2) Another line of thought. Lets say that you fancy designing a bike from scratch. You bend tubes and weld for years until you finally end up with your perfect bike. By coincidence the geometry happens to be exactly the same as a Santa Cruz model, does that make you a thief? Does Santa Cruz own the rights to that particular geometry?
    Did they file for a patent?
    3) You're an aspiring bike builder. You buy some bikes and take them apart to look for clever solutions to incorporate in your own bikes. After hacking a bunch of frames to pieces it turns out that Kona does something really clever with the thickness of the tubing, using thicker tubes in some areas of the frame and thinner tube in others. Does learning from that and using similar choices on your bikes make you a thief? Does Kona own the rights to make a thick head tube and a lighter down tube?
    Again, did they file for a patent? Simply copying someone else's designs does in fact equate to theft. You can can call it what you want to but theft of intellectual property is in fact theft. You may choose to argue the letter of the law, but at the very core of it theft is theft and wrong is wrong. The fact that so many people seem to condone this is why we as a whole are winning the race to the bottom, settling for the lowest common denominator.

  18. #18
    Dropshot Champ!
    Reputation: redmr2_man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,883
    Great article. I read it the other day and it just brought to light what most of us already knew.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    You might care if the break is catastrophic in nature and causes you injury

    Buying knocks offs is no different than stealing from the company that designed that particular frame.
    true, but look at all the companies using chinese generic crap for their own profit. Boyd is huuuge on road bike review, and he's using 20 dollar chinese bitex hubs on thousand dollar wheel builds. Grammo does the same damn thing. There are hundred of companies popping up that take the chinese carbon, toss a cool sticker on, brand it as their own, and give it a 10x markup!

    I paid less than 300$ for my chinese carbon frame. I've beaten the **** out of it, and it just won't die. I want it to break so I can build something else up, but it keeps truckin. Kinda sucks! It's been through one tough mtn race season, few cx races, and endless local rides. I should note that it isn't my "goto" bike, it's a race/backup bike










    Plus, the 12 cents the 10yr old boy/girl made to make my bike, it gunna feed them for a day or two. So I'm saving children from hunger too.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Blurr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,335
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    It is equally silly to pay a premium for a brand name. The compression shirt sold by Walmart for $10 is the same as Under Armour or Nike at quadruple the price. The only difference is the logo.

    Certainly a bicycle frame is more complicated than a shirt. The trick is to find one that is the rough equivalent of one that says "Specialized" or "Scott" or whatever and similarly get it for 1/4 the price. They are out there. I have three, two road and one mountain, all more than 3 years old. Still working, still light. Since I am not out there either to win races or to pose, what the hell do I care if my knock off frames are not perfectly the same as the brand name? And if any of them break at this point what the hell do I care about a warranty? I just buy another for $400 or so.
    And this is true but when you pay for the name you also pay for a warranty as well as quality control. The bikes selling direct (or anything) from the factory often are often seconds and may not have the same quality bolts as they are not subject to the inspection from said Brand name. You may also be buying the same exact bike of course, maybe some brand ordered X amount of bikes originally and purchased a smaller amount and the factory is trying to unload them.
    But if saving 400 dollars and taking the risk is worth it to you I strongly encourage you to do so its entirely possible you will hvae good luck, I have so far with other items doing the same.


    =Brewality]
    Buying knocks offs is no different than stealing from the company that designed that particular frame
    False you are not stealing anything, what you are doing is being a savvy business person at this point and going for the cheapest supplier (which really is what your kona ect did) and eliminating extra expense. If anyone is being ripped off it is those that are working in the factory for pennies while your big name cycle gobbles up the profits, so what you are supporting in many ways is slavery.

  20. #20
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,267
    Never any shortage of people to purchase the cheapest possibble crap and then trumpet what a great deal it was and how anyone that bought anything better is a sucker.

  21. #21
    Dropshot Champ!
    Reputation: redmr2_man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,883
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Never any shortage of people to purchase the cheapest possibble crap and then trumpet what a great deal it was and how anyone that bought anything better is a sucker.
    Yep. I'm a broke college student with a passion for cycling. Same reason I goto ebay/pricepoint/jenson/chainreaction/wiggle/performance bike to buy an xtr chain for $30, when the lbs wants $100+.

    You're more than welcome to spend way more than me on stuff. But I'm not gunna join you

    Truth is, if I walked into an lbs and wanted a carbon race hardtail frame...I realistically would have had to shell out well over a grand. Probably closer to 2 grand. I saved alot. I can't wait til it breaks though

  22. #22
    banned
    Reputation: roadie scum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    773
    Wal-Mart Syndrome. That is all.

  23. #23
    Demon Cleaner
    Reputation: Structure's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    464
    So does this mean I can get a carbon Pivot 5.7 knock-off for $400??? Where! Where's the link? What about a carbon Stumpy FSR 29er EVO frame for $500??? Where!

    j/k...
    Bicycling is politics by other means.

  24. #24
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by trailville View Post
    I did read your posts and the link article before posting. Your first post had a link to an article saying most of these frames come for the same factory, and your post said that's the reason you buy these no-name carbon frames. So I don't see how anyone could interpret that at anythong other than that because the frames from the big names are made there, that your no-name frame is somehow the same. If not, please try to explain the point you were making with your 1st post.

    Your second post started out by saying "compression shirt sold by Walmart for $10 is the same as Under Armour or Nike at quadruple the price" (something else you're guessing at). and then proceeded to acknowledge that the bike frames may not be exact, but still had to make the comparisons to the big brands. Again, what is your point here?

    Is there no way for you to describe your frame without mentioning the big names?

    Several years ago I purchased an RST F1RST fork when RST was trying to get into the higher-end fork business. They were clearing them out and at that price I figured they were worth a shot. I recall back then how there were posts talking about how RST used to make forks for some of the big names. That had nothing to do with the RST fork that was being sold but apparently some people (like you) need to use these bogus comparisons to feel good about their purchase. It was an OK fork for the money and I was happy with the purchase, but it was not the same as (or even similar to) the higher end forks I have form the big names, and anyone that thought they were getting an equivelent product were simply deluding themselves.

    Then there was the never ending thread on those bikes Target was selling that were "the same as" the big brand bikes. And they also made that conculusion because they claimed they were made at the same factory and looked similar. Your post is "the same as" that thread. You clearly have some type of brand envy going on and need to justify your purchase by believing your bike is the same as one that cost much more. Can you not just justify your pruchase on how you like the frame you got?

    I've been a tool guy for over 30 years. I have tools from big name companies and I have cheap tools from places like Harbor Freight. My cheap tools serve the purpose I intended to use them for, but in no way do I think that these cheap tools are as good as SnapOn or Craftsman, etc.

    I said "rough equivalent" and "imitation." Never said "same as" nor do I believe they are. I believe they are an inexpensive product made from carbon fiber in some factory in china that makes a ton of carbon fiber products including bike frames (and kayak paddles). The frames are light and perform just fine. If you think I'm going to get into some poseur b.s. about they way they "feel" you're out of luck. They are bike frames. They work. They haven't broken. They are what they are, and I frankly have no clue if they are "the same as" or "as good as" a brand name. I doubt I'm a decent enough cyclist off-road or on road to notice, anyway. But I do notice my checkbook balance, and it looks a lot heavier than it would otherwise for a "similar" product.

    Tools are purchased for the task. If I were Cat 1, I would probably purchase the best bike available (hopefully it would be given to me). Same if I were a carpenter or a mechanic. As a homeowner, DeWalt, Harbor Freight, and Ryobi work fine for my needs. Why would I buy Snap On, or need it?

    Finally, anybody who pays $40-60 for a Nike or Under Armour compression shirt is wasting money, IMO. The Walmart, I wager, IS THE SAME AS. Made I China from the exact same material. Just no swoosh.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  25. #25
    banned
    Reputation: roadie scum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    773
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Tools are purchased for the task. If I were Cat 1, I would probably purchase the best bike available (hopefully it would be given to me). Same if I were a carpenter or a mechanic. As a homeowner, DeWalt, Harbor Freight, and Ryobi work fine for my needs. Why would I buy Snap On, or need it?

    Finally, anybody who pays $40-60 for a Nike or Under Armour compression shirt is wasting money, IMO. The Walmart, I wager, IS THE SAME AS. Made I China from the exact same material. Just no swoosh.




    See, I'm psychic and stuff.

  26. #26
    R T
    R T is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: R T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Again, did they file for a patent? Simply copying someone else's designs does in fact equate to theft. You can can call it what you want to but theft of intellectual property is in fact theft. You may choose to argue the letter of the law, but at the very core of it theft is theft and wrong is wrong. The fact that so many people seem to condone this is why we as a whole are winning the race to the bottom, settling for the lowest common denominator.
    Well said. Theft is theft, knock off's are knock off's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    And this is true but when you pay for the name you also pay for a warranty as well as quality control.
    Everyone should read that again. Key words, QUALITY CONTROL. Not to say any manufacturer is perfect but they at least have standards.

  27. #27
    mtbr member
    Reputation: riiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post
    Yep. I'm a broke college student with a passion for cycling. Same reason I goto ebay/pricepoint/jenson/chainreaction/wiggle/performance bike to buy an xtr chain for $30, when the lbs wants $100+.

    You're more than welcome to spend way more than me on stuff. But I'm not gunna join you

    Truth is, if I walked into an lbs and wanted a carbon race hardtail frame...I realistically would have had to shell out well over a grand. Probably closer to 2 grand. I saved alot. I can't wait til it breaks though
    You misinterpreted what he said, you saved money by cutting out the LBS, but thats a whole other thread right there. He meant saving money by buying a Chicago tool (harbor freight) and comparing it to a matco/snap-on tool and going on about how awesome it is and how stupid the rest are.

  28. #28
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Blurr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,335
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Again, did they file for a patent? Simply copying someone else's designs does in fact equate to theft. You can can call it what you want to but theft of intellectual property is in fact theft. You may choose to argue the letter of the law, but at the very core of it theft is theft and wrong is wrong. The fact that so many people seem to condone this is why we as a whole are winning the race to the bottom, settling for the lowest common denominator.
    No companies look for any way to make a profit and if they can steal some technology from the other guy they will, fact is in order to get a patent on a preexisting design it only has to be 30 percent different, sounds like alot but merely changing where or how a couple bolts attach now qualifies for said new patent.


    Look if name bands really believed they were losing enough money via underground sales to effect their bottom line they would simply change factories are make noted to the factory if it continues they will stop production with them.

  29. #29
    mtbr member
    Reputation: riiz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    481
    Quote Originally Posted by Structure View Post
    So does this mean I can get a carbon Pivot 5.7 knock-off for $400??? Where! Where's the link? What about a carbon Stumpy FSR 29er EVO frame for $500??? Where!

    j/k...
    bikesdirect.com....

    just kidding

  30. #30
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Never any shortage of people to purchase the cheapest possibble crap and then trumpet what a great deal it was and how anyone that bought anything better is a sucker.
    Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses.

    Gotta look at both sides of the bell curve.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  31. #31
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses.

    Gotta look at both sides of the bell curve.

    Barney's? When did the discussion take a turn to surfing?

  32. #32
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses.

    Gotta look at both sides of the bell curve.



    Ahhhhhhhhhh, the old "resort to name calling trick". You win.

  33. #33
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by redmr2_man View Post

    ].
    Well we have a real world example.

    What (non-chinese) company does this frame rip off?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  34. #34
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Well we have a real world example.

    What (non-chinese) company does this frame rip off?




    Your sample size is too small.

  35. #35
    Dropshot Champ!
    Reputation: redmr2_man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,883
    obviously its a sixer a9c


  36. #36
    R T
    R T is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: R T's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    38
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses.

    Gotta look at both sides of the bell curve.
    See this is the response I love. Not everyone that buys the most expensive or nicest bikes out there look down their noses at people. I don't give a damn what you ride as long as you ride. Do you think because I ride a top fuel with xtr I look down at my friend who just bought an aluminum norco with slx? Hell no, he's riding. I guess when he goes to get his road bike with 105 I should tell him to find someone to ride with because I have super record 11 and he's just not in my league. Maybe educate yourself before you go ranting about what other people do and why they do it.

  37. #37
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    dwt... people clearly don't enjoy hearing that they may have overspent. basic logic.

  38. #38
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Ahhhhhhhhhh, the old "resort to name calling trick". You win.
    More like you can dish it out but can't take it . Tit for tat
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  39. #39
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    More like you can dish it out but can't take it . Tit for tat


    My, isn't that grown up. You win again.

  40. #40
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    More like you can dish it out but can't take it . Tit for tat
    Take a look at his last 60 posts or so....nothing of value...just criticism of member comments/thoughts...almost as though he does not even ride a bike..

  41. #41
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Ahhhhhhhhhh, the old "resort to name calling trick". You win.
    Quote Originally Posted by R T View Post
    See this is the response I love. Not everyone that buys the most expensive or nicest bikes out there look down their noses at people. I don't give a damn what you ride as long as you ride. Do you think because I ride a top fuel with xtr I look down at my friend who just bought an aluminum norco with slx? Hell no, he's riding. I guess when he goes to get his road bike with 105 I should tell him to find someone to ride with because I have super record 11 and he's just not in my league. Maybe educate yourself before you go ranting about what other people do and why they do it.
    Well DUH. The point is that not everyone that buys a Chinese bike frame is a thief who laughs at others spending too much money anymore than the converse. Both exist at the extremes of the bell curve though. Maybe read through the thread before making a non sequitur post eh?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  42. #42
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,267
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Take a look at his last 60 posts or so....nothing of value...just criticism of member comments/thoughts...almost as though he does not even ride a bike..



    Say's the Chinese knock off fanboi. Your contribution is stellar.

  43. #43
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Say's the Chinese knock off fanboi. Your contribution is stellar.
    Floyd is in da house!! What what! Chill pill. Clearly you come to mtbr each day to pick e-fights. Go to a gaming forum instead... Go back and read your posts....seriously.

    We ALL are guilty to some extent, but you sir..you are out of control with negative remarks.

    Good luck with that..

    .03

  44. #44
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    say's the chinese knock off fanboi. Your contribution is stellar.
    qed.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  45. #45
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    No disappointment in this one, devolved into the usual poo slinging.

  46. #46
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,425
    Just real quick to touch on a subject earlier. My work comp is being gay so I wont be quoting it. But...it was the comment on an individual building themselves a frame that copies a trek/kona/niner, etc....


    If i have the ability and knowledge to make my own frames and I decide to build my own and make it exactly like a name brand, but for my own usage. There is absolutely nothing wrong for it. In fact I would applaud someone for hand building something most likely built in bulk in a factory in taiwan. Now if I decide to make more and market and sell those bikes? Well, theres the rub. Thats copyright infringement. Its exactly like if I buy a cd, then make a copy to keep in my car so my original copy doesnt get scratched/melted/stolen theres nothing wrong with it. But I cant break out the CD ripper and open up my own music store.


    As for the chinese/taiwanese/japanese/theyalllookalikeanese (<-joke btw, dont get your panties in a bunch) off brand/knock off frames......If you want to purchase those, by all means go ahead. Its the company's issue if they are commiting fraud or copyright infringement. Not yours. However, I personally (this is indeed 100% my own opinion, if you take offense to it I pity you) would not feel comfortable buying one over a big name or known fabricator. In one way or another in life you get what you pay for.

    The biggest reason is I prefer to stimulate and support my local company. Even though my Giant was built in taiwan, it was bought from a locally owned and operated independent bike shop. It was delivered to that bike shop my an american truck driver working for an american operated freight company (unless it was DHL, but meh). So forth and on down the line.
    2010 Giant Yukon FX
    Pure XCR Wheelset/Geax Saguaro Tires/Tubeless
    Bike Weight Lost: 2.48lbs (1124g)

  47. #47
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I said "rough equivalent" and "imitation." Never said "same as" nor do I believe they are. I believe they are an inexpensive product made from carbon fiber in some factory in china that makes a ton of carbon fiber products including bike frames (and kayak paddles). The frames are light and perform just fine. If you think I'm going to get into some poseur b.s. about they way they "feel" you're out of luck. They are bike frames. They work. They haven't broken. They are what they are, and I frankly have no clue if they are "the same as" or "as good as" a brand name. I doubt I'm a decent enough cyclist off-road or on road to notice, anyway. But I do notice my checkbook balance, and it looks a lot heavier than it would otherwise for a "similar" product.
    Then what was the point of your original post citing that article?

    Why didn't you just create a thread that says you like your no-name carbon frame? That you wanted a carbon frame and this was the only option within what you were willing to spend. That it may possibly be a little heavier or not ride exactly like some of the higher-end frames, but you are happy with it. You're kind of saying that now, but your original post and some of your other comments were clearly implying something different.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  48. #48
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    My, isn't that grown up. You win again.
    Don't start a poo war if you don't want poo on your face.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  49. #49
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Don't start a poo war if you don't want poo on your face.


    Uhmmmm, your both acting like kids but I believe you started the poo flinging. Just sayin.

  50. #50
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Your sample size is too small.
    It only takes one to disprove any assertion that they are ALL ripoffs, knock offs, copies, counterfeits, etc.

    If this frame is none of the above, then it is simply a good deal.

    For all who wonder what the point of this thread, this is it. All carbon fiber frames are made in China. They certainly are NOT all equal. But the fact is you can buy one direct for a budget price - and have to feel low down and bad about it. Not all of them are dirty, though many are. Use your head. Caveat Emptor
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  51. #51
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    All carbon fiber frames are made in China.
    That's not true. I know Trek still makes their OCLV frames in the United States.

    And I'll add that according to Trek's website, they have 4 different grades of carbon fiber frames. The three highest grades are all OCLV and made in the US. Then they have the lower grade which they describe as "value-orientated" and that is made in Asia. Clearly there's more to a CF frame than just the fact that it's a CF frame.
    Last edited by trailville; 02-22-2012 at 12:47 PM.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  52. #52
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    Quote Originally Posted by trailville View Post
    That's not true. I know Trek still makes their OCLV frames in the United States.

    And I'll add that according to Trek's website, they have 4 different grades of carbon fiber frames. The three highest grades are all OCLV and made in the US. Then they have the lower grade which they describe as "value-orientated" and that is made in Asia. Clearly there's more to a CF frame than just the fact that it's a CF frame.
    I want my carbon made overseas in Asia...don't care if it is a Colnago or Trek. They do it best.

    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy

  53. #53
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    I want my carbon made overseas in Asia...don't care if it is a Colnago or Trek. They do it best.

    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy




    Heavens forbid we do something to help our economy.

  54. #54
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Heavens forbid we do something to help our economy.
    You don't actually think Trek has decided to make their high end frames in the USA to "help our economy" do you? That is laughable in my opinion..

    My guess is that it is pure marketing...which seems to appeal to some...

    That was my point in case you missed it.

    There is hypocrisy in your comment IF you own a single item that was made overseas that could have been purchased from an American manufacturer btw..

  55. #55
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Blurr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    2,335
    FYI to carry the Made in the USA Label it only has to be 60 percent made here, Kind of BS labeling IMO.

    Edit: apparently the percentage I read was about motorcycles, it varies per product.

    ‘Made in America’ rules are confusing - Business - US business - Made in America - msnbc.com

  56. #56
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    FYI to carry the Made in the USA Label it only has to be 60 percent made here, I have no Idea how they determine that but it is what it is, Kind of BS labeling IMO.
    Yes...I read an article about this. It is not even 60% "made"...more like 60% of the "cost" to "make" the frame complete and ready to sell.....aka a fancy paint job done in the USA only = "made in USA" or made in Germany etc etc label..

  57. #57
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Uhmmmm, your both acting like kids but I believe you started the poo flinging. Just sayin.
    But MOMMMM!


    Flloyd flung:

    "Never any shortage of people to purchase the cheapest possibble crap and then trumpet what a great deal it was and how anyone that bought anything better is a sucker."

    And I replied:

    "Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses."

    Who flung the first turd? Just sayin'
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  58. #58
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    You don't actually think Trek has decided to make their high end frames in the USA to "help our economy" do you? That is laughable in my opinion..

    My guess is that it is pure marketing...which seems to appeal to some...

    That was my point in case you missed it.

    There is hypocrisy in your comment IF you own a single item that was made overseas that could have been purchased from an American manufacturer btw..


    Broad, sweeping assumptions on your part. Do not even suggest that I am a hypocrite thank you.

  59. #59
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    I want my carbon made overseas in Asia...don't care if it is a Colnago or Trek. They do it best.

    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy
    I want the best value. There is no free lunch, but I'll take my risk with the NON-STOLEN chinese frame for $300 rather than the one that says "Specialized" and costs $3000

    Though I MAY make an exception for a Scott Genius 650b when it comes out
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  60. #60
    banned
    Reputation: roadie scum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    773
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I want the best value. There is no free lunch, but I'll take my risk with the NON-STOLEN chinese frame for $300 rather than the one that says "Specialized" and costs $3000


    How do yo know it was not "stolen" and why are you drawing comparisons to "Specialized"? Your making assumptions about the source and you really don't know the source. Your continued inclusion of name brands in this discussion only make you look the fool IMO. I'm glad you like your frame but your motives are suspect at best.

  61. #61
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    But MOMMMM!


    Flloyd flung:

    "Never any shortage of people to purchase the cheapest possibble crap and then trumpet what a great deal it was and how anyone that bought anything better is a sucker."

    And I replied:

    "Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses."

    Who flung the first turd? Just sayin'



    Nice, arguing about who is more wrong. Your both acting like tools IMHO.

  62. #62
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy
    I'm sure the "Made in USA" is part of it, but part of it may be in maintaining quality control (high-end frames tend to be so light and thin that they can't afford to have any quality issues) and part of it may be that they don't want to risk sharing their techniques, tooling, knowledge with a 3rd party manufacturer that may then start selling "same as" frames on the internet.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  63. #63
    dwt
    dwt is offline
    mtbr member
    Reputation: dwt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    4,169
    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    How do yo know it was not "stolen" and why are you drawing comparisons to "Specialized"? Your making assumptions about the source and you really don't know the source. Your continued inclusion of name brands in this discussion only make you look the fool IMO. I'm glad you like your frame but your motives are suspect at best.
    Redmr2__man posted up his frame. Tell us who it was ripped off from. If nobody then who is the fool?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  64. #64
    banned
    Reputation: roadie scum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    773
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Redmr2__man posted up his frame. Tell us who it was ripped off from. If nobody then who is the fool?



    You avoid answering by asking.

  65. #65
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    AZ..thank you for being the moderator here. Totally unnecessary btw. You call people out for name calling/arguing and then proceed to call them "tools".

    Yes. That is a hypocrite.

    Thanks.

  66. #66
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Redmr2__man posted up his frame. Tell us who it was ripped off from. If nobody then who is the fool?
    Good, then it's finally settled. Apparently, The Chinese Carbon Frames ARE NOT THE SAME as those you buy from the major brands.
    So what was the point of this thread?
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  67. #67
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    AZ..thank you for being the moderator here. Totally unnecessary btw. You call people out for name calling/arguing and then proceed to call them "tools".

    Yes. That is a hypocrite.

    Thanks.


    No, I posted that they were both acting like tools. Big difference. You take it however you perceive your world by the way. I respect your right to not agree with me but calling me a hypocrite just points to your shortcomings with the written word and the comprehension of its context.

  68. #68
    banned
    Reputation: roadie scum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    773
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    AZ..thank you for being the moderator here. Totally unnecessary btw. You call people out for name calling/arguing and then proceed to call them "tools".

    Yes. That is a hypocrite.

    Thanks.


    Really? That's not how I read that.

  69. #69
    mnoutain bkie rdier
    Reputation: rydbyk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Posts
    2,822
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    No, I posted that they were both acting like tools. Big difference. You take it however you perceive your world by the way. I respect your right to not agree with me but calling me a hypocrite just points to your shortcomings with the written word and the comprehension of its context.
    Jab jab... I do ok coach..

  70. #70
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Jab jab... I do ok coach..


    Your right, that was a bit out of line. My sincerest apologies.

  71. #71
    "2 Wycked"
    Reputation: crazy03's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    986
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  72. #72
    Beer Me!
    Reputation: Guerdonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,095
    This thread is now:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0FdQVx55_fs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  73. #73
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122

  74. #74
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    You might care if the break is catastrophic in nature and causes you injury
    That happens to all frames. Overdesigned superlight ones in particular.

  75. #75
    R.I.P. Pugsley.
    Reputation: Rabies010's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,706
    Cool pissing match...
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wAzpIhIZaV8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  76. #76
    Beer Me!
    Reputation: Guerdonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,095
    v v v FINALLY THIS THREAD GOT INTERESTING!

    Thanks Chummy

    Edit: Dag nab post time bug, my arrows are now pointing down.

  77. #77
    fresh fish in stock...... SuperModerator
    Reputation: CHUM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    8,618
    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Click Here for Forum Rules

  78. #78
    ******
    Reputation: monzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,990
    I pee, therefore, I am(better than you).

    If parts are foreign then I'm fairly certain it has to be labeled "assembled in America" not "made in America". Redwings shoes have to do this even though almost the whole shoe is sourced in the US; with the exception of the metal eyelets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  79. #79
    ******
    Reputation: monzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    2,990
    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    ....]

    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Hopefully you're a Maco or Snap-On and not some cheap HF rip-off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  80. #80
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    If parts are foreign then I'm fairly certain it has to be labeled "assembled in America" not "made in America". Redwings shoes have to do this even though almost the whole shoe is sourced in the US; with the exception of the metal eyelets.
    U.S. Origin Claims:* Enforcement and Compliance Activities Since December 1997

    I tried reading it, and it all seems a bit murky.

    In any case, I do not even know about many components that are manufactured in USA - from tires to brakes etc. So it is all about frame. And even a frame made here - where did the raw components (tubing, fiber etc.) came from?

    Who cares. Track record of a particular make is far more important.

    All my bikes are made in my garage from parts bought all over the world anyway. I wish I could weld frames as well.

  81. #81
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    Hopefully you're a Maco or Snap-On and not some cheap HF rip-off.
    Somehow I settled on German brands in tools, most I have are Knipex, Bosch, Stahlwille.. But some recent Bosch power tools I got - 12V Multi-X, rotary hammer, came from Asian origin.

  82. #82
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    2,648
    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    I'm gonna neg rep you just out of jealousy. Been seeing quite a few of those photos from out West recently.
    My upper midwest trails should be nice and frozen this time of year, but we've had mud almost the entire winter. Can't ride, can't ski, too muddy to even hike or trail run. Yep, neg rep for sure.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  83. #83
    R.I.P. Pugsley.
    Reputation: Rabies010's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,706
    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    But some recent Bosch power tools I got - 12V Multi-X, rotary hammer, came from Asian origin.
    Any carbon in there ?

  84. #84
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Any carbon in there ?
    No. No carbon. Just good tools. I like all kind of tools. Hand tools, power tools. Even online tools.

  85. #85
    Wait for me!
    Reputation: whoopwhoop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    687
    Hmmm, seems like a lot of talk about the ebay generic hard tails. Anyone want to go to bat for knock offs with rear suspension? I wouldn't trust one to save a few bucks, you get what you pay for. Plus warranty and proven suspension design. That's worth some money to me.

    Anyway, how would you even rate a product that technically doesn't exist? "I got mine from that website with all the text in a foreign language I can't read."

    I watched a pretty good video on monocoque carbon frame construction and the internal bagging process blah blah blah. Good engineering, design and support provide a superior product at the end of the day. Just like generic honey nut cheerios aren't nearly as good as the name brand, that's how I feel about my bikes anyway.

  86. #86
    banned
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    2,320
    Yes, especially the online tools.
    Always cheap, often ill-fitting & tweaked turn simple threads into a full blown McGyver.
    And no, not those out riding.
    Last edited by Flyin_W; 02-22-2012 at 05:07 PM. Reason: RE: the pissing contest.

  87. #87
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by whoopwhoop View Post
    I wouldn't trust one to save a few bucks, you get what you pay for. Plus warranty and proven suspension design. That's worth some money to me.
    And they are not much cheaper then some decent aluminum FS frames deals with good shocks. Plenty of very decent options around $1K if you look around.. Like Titus El Guapo from the new owners, or my Rotwild frame, or some KHS deals one can find..

  88. #88
    mtbr member
    Reputation: 006_007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    8,909
    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon

  89. #89
    Nickel Havr
    Reputation: Eckstream1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    1,177
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Are you actually sure about that? I doubt that a bike manufacturer can patent a specific geometry, material choice or production method.

    Yes I'm sure it's stealing... And I'm sure they have patents.

    1) Lets say you have a Trek that you really like and it gets stolen. Rather than buying a new one, you decide to fire up the old welder, bend some tubing and build a bike yourself. Knowing that your old Trek were a great ride you choose to use the same geometry for your home made bike. Does that make you a thief? Do Trek own that particular geometry so that you can't use it too?

    Yes Trek owns the design... Yes you can use it to build your own personal bike. As long as you aren't profiting from it.


    2) Another line of thought. Lets say that you fancy designing a bike from scratch. You bend tubes and weld for years until you finally end up with your perfect bike. By coincidence the geometry happens to be exactly the same as a Santa Cruz model, does that make you a thief? Does Santa Cruz own the rights to that particular geometry?

    Yes... If they have a patent on the frame or type of tubing they own the design. Again... As long as you don't profit from it it's cool.

    3) You're an aspiring bike builder. You buy some bikes and take them apart to look for clever solutions to incorporate in your own bikes. After hacking a bunch of frames to pieces it turns out that Kona does something really clever with the thickness of the tubing, using thicker tubes in some areas of the frame and thinner tube in others. Does learning from that and using similar choices on your bikes make you a thief? Does Kona own the rights to make a thick head tube and a lighter down tube?
    Ah.... Well now that would be blatant stealing! You would be looking to profit in this example...
    Think about it like this....

    Lets say you spent $50,000,000 to design and test a revolutionary new product...
    You file all the patents and send your design to China for production...
    In a month your $2,000 product is being sold on eBay for $50 and nobody buys your product because it's more expensive...

    Would you want to protect that $50,000,000 investment? Or would you just let the Chinese rip you off?

    I imagine you would be the type to sue...
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blake
    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

  90. #90
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon
    I remember Mike from bikesdirect saying that he preferred to have his better frames to be titanium (and that it did cost him much more to produce then carbon ones). I tend to agree - their titanium frames are very, very well made. I ride my Fly Ti for the third year and it is an excellent hard-tail.

  91. #91
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    1,426
    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    /\ This x eleventy billion. Some people just seem to be able to justify anything as long as it falls in their favor.

    Like manufacturers and 10 speed.

  92. #92
    mtbr member
    Reputation: Scott O's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,553
    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay

  93. #93
    AZ
    AZ is offline
    banned
    Reputation: AZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    19,201
    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay



    Calfee can probably fix that for a pretty reasonable fee.

  94. #94
    Titanium junkie
    Reputation: Loudviking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,420
    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon
    Yeah, just like the Motobecane Ti frames that Mountain bike rags
    have tested and said they are a VERY GOOD ride. Damn them for
    offering a solid ride!
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  95. #95
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    14
    Chinese carbon for the fail!

  96. #96
    Dropshot Champ!
    Reputation: redmr2_man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    4,883
    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Get some gears, hipster!

    77 and hero dirt here, and my i9's are less girly.

    Oneuppered

    ps, please don't chum me!

  97. #97
    Titanium junkie
    Reputation: Loudviking's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    1,420
    Chum, what bike is that you are riding?
    I like the look.
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  98. #98
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    FYI to carry the Made in the USA Label it only has to be 60 percent made here, Kind of BS labeling IMO.

    Edit: apparently the percentage I read was about motorcycles, it varies per product.
    They wanted to make a rule like that for all the products, but it is really hard to quantify - how do you count materials and added value. So it is still that vague "all or virtually all" standard. No idea how it is enforced.

    Personally, I do pay some attention to the country of origin. I consider Germany, USA and Japan to be tier 1, Most of the rest of Europe and Taiwan as tier 2, rest as 3. No real reason. I certainly would not buy American made just because it is American made...

  99. #99
    Clyde on a mission!
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    719
    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Again, did they file for a patent? Simply copying someone else's designs does in fact equate to theft. You can can call it what you want to but theft of intellectual property is in fact theft. You may choose to argue the letter of the law, but at the very core of it theft is theft and wrong is wrong. The fact that so many people seem to condone this is why we as a whole are winning the race to the bottom, settling for the lowest common denominator.
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?

  100. #100
    Axe
    Axe is online now
    Custom User Title
    Reputation: Axe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    7,122
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?
    Indeed. Intellectual property - copyrights, patents, trade secrets, trademarks - all have some pretty strict definitions and limitations. Also, there is such thing as common sense - that makes some of the patents (or trademark claims, like Specialized's "Epic" fiasco) to be very hard to respect.

    I definitely could not care less when buying a German frame directly - possibly infringing on Specialized's FSR patent in US.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Members who have read this thread: 4

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •