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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post
    Chum, what bike is that you are riding?
    I like the look.
    Looks alot like the Trek Sawyer, but don't quote me on that. Whatever it might be it is very sharp looking.
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    You avoid answering by asking.
    You ask how do I know it was not "stolen."? I don't.

    But one user posted a photo of the frame he bought. If you or anyone wish to make claims of forgery, counterfeit, rip off and/or theft, it is incumbent upon you to prove the positive, not upon me or anyone else to disprove the negative.

    .
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville View Post
    Good, then it's finally settled. Apparently, The Chinese Carbon Frames ARE NOT THE SAME as those you buy from the major brands.
    So what was the point of this thread?
    That you can buy a quality carbon frame made in the country where all - excuse me - the vast majority - of carbon frames are made, and you don't have to pay the mark up a logo adds to it.

    Whether the frame is "the same as", "as good as", "as reliable as" etc. the name frames is open to debate and a question for each consumer to decide for him or herself before spending his or her money.

    In this world economy, there is no reason that frames can't be just another part which can be purchased by consumers along with other parts, to end up as bikes.

    If it is more economical, reliable or "better" to buy a complete bike from an OEM , so be
    it. If is is preferable to buy parts and self assemble, so be it. The consumer should be able to make the choice. Good grief, I sound like Ron Paul.

    P.S. This discussion concerns hardtails and road frames primarily. Another poster brought up suspension designs, which is a whole nother ballgame.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?



    Your IQ is showing.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?



    "kinda similar" and copying are two different things and you are being disingenuous in posting that. I'll simplify it for you, when you got caught copying someone else's work in school you got in trouble right? Why? Because it stealing, its not right.

  7. #107
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    I have two U.S. design patents for a Karaoke Machine (past life/career), and I was the creative behind the design of this machine and microphone (I actually have the original marker drawings of these ). I designed both logos, the colors (we had 5), button layout, etc.



    After I designed this, before this thing even hit the states, it was already being sold in China and Japan, completely rebranded - different colors, different logos. This was completely to the knowledge of the company I worked for, and we were getting a piece of it (a very small piece).

    I've traveled to China and I've been to the factories - witnessing ALL kinds of stuff being made, from bike parts to toys to electronics. They are ALL being made by the same hands, high-end name brand stuff to the most cheapo, er, "Chinese" crap, you can think of. All the same workers making all the same stuff, high-end to low-end - directly side by side one another.

    It was very strange to see the same exact product coming down the belt, but some stuff was being branded "Sony", and others with some Chinese lettering. Some went into the "nice boxes" and some went in to the most low-end Chinese boxes you've ever seen. This was not stealing, this was all done legally.

    Having worked in the world of manufacturing from the art/design perspective, I can vouch that there is piracy, but not on the levels that some of you think there is. There are deals that are made, that we don't know about, between manufacturers and factories regarding branding.

    I can also attest to the engineering. Most of the engineering is done in Taiwan, and they are VERY good. But one thing that makes them different than us, is they follow directions very closely, and they will NOT improve on a product unless told to - they don't exercise a lot of free will when it comes to working for a big name. So when Specialized says "we want it this way" the engineers will not go any other way.

    When the Taiwanese took my design, they actually suggested what they "felt" would work (under the allowance of my boss)... adhering to the same overall look. The new design was exceptional and allowed for internals much better than what I had drawn. They really improved my design and what you see above was the final.

    If a Chinese company was to make a frame, designed by Taiwanese engineers, they aren't coming up with these designs from left field - it is from years and years of experience by working on big name bikes. Think of it as an American engineer breaking off from a big name employer to design his own frames - it would be silly to assume that he/she wasn't heavily influenced by the company he previously worked for.

    Almost everything you have in your home was made in China, even the computers that are allowing you to argue about things made in China. These frames are of exceptional quality, and don't fail any more or less than the ones with stickers on them. The up charge on brand name frames are due to a number of reasons, but quality isn't one of them. There is some piracy going on, but there is also legit business going on, too.

    I worked in China and Taiwan, I witnessed it all for myself, from the cad engineers to the actual factory workers. I do have to admit, Chinese factories are pretty hardcore and you come to realize why labor is so cheap.

    I get a little tired of the hypocritical nonsense of "Chinese crap" or "Bikesdirect crap". Unless you've worked in international manufacturing, your views are biased presumptions. There is a lot of business going on over there between U.S. manufacturers and factories, and everybody is getting a piece of the action.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I have two U.S. design patents for a Karaoke Machine (past life/career), and I was the creative behind the design of this machine and microphone (I actually have the original marker drawings of these ). I designed both logos, the colors (we had 5), button layout, etc.



    After I designed this, before this thing even hit the states, it was already being sold in China and Japan, completely rebranded - different colors, different logos. This was completely to the knowledge of the company I worked for, and we were getting a piece of it (a very small piece).

    I've traveled to China and I've been to the factories - witnessing ALL kinds of stuff being made, from bike parts to toys to electronics. They are ALL being made by the same hands, high-end name brand stuff to the most cheapo, er, "Chinese" crap, you can think of. All the same workers making all the same stuff, high-end to low-end - directly side by side one another.

    It was very strange to see the same exact product coming down the belt, but some stuff was being branded "Sony", and others with some Chinese lettering. Some went into the "nice boxes" and some went in to the most low-end Chinese boxes you've ever seen. This was not stealing, this was all done legally.

    Having worked in the world of manufacturing from the art/design perspective, I can vouch that there is piracy, but not on the levels that some of you think there is. There are deals that are made, that we don't know about, between manufacturers and factories regarding branding.

    I can also attest to the engineering. Most of the engineering is done in Taiwan, and they are VERY good. But one thing that makes them different than us, is they follow directions very closely, and they will NOT improve on a product unless told to - they don't exercise a lot of free will when it comes to working for a big name. So when Specialized says "we want it this way" the engineers will not go any other way.

    When the Taiwanese took my design, they actually suggested what they "felt" would work (under the allowance of my boss)... adhering to the same overall look. The new design was exceptional and allowed for internals much better than what I had drawn. They really improved my design and what you see above was the final.

    If a Chinese company was to make a frame, designed by Taiwanese engineers, they aren't coming up with these designs from left field - it is from years and years of experience by working on big name bikes. Think of it as an American engineer breaking off from a big name employer to design his own frames - it would be silly to assume that he/she wasn't heavily influenced by the company he previously worked for.

    Almost everything you have in your home was made in China, even the computers that are allowing you to argue about things made in China. These frames are of exceptional quality, and don't fail any more or less than the ones with stickers on them. The up charge on brand name frames are due to a number of reasons, but quality isn't one of them. There is some piracy going on, but there is also legit business going on, too.

    I worked in China and Taiwan, I witnessed it all for myself, from the cad engineers to the actual factory workers. I do have to admit, Chinese factories are pretty hardcore and you come to realize why labor is so cheap.
    ^^ Well there you go folks. I would suppose those of us who feel the need to buy items with the big stickers on them will have to look to other reasons to justify our purchases, reasons other than "quality". The tested reliability of a certain name brand, as well as the support it garners (Trek dealer in town will fix a Trek for free in most cases), and warranties will have to be enough for most of us.

    Otherwise I totally believe Dion. I have heard the same about car manufacturing overseas. Yes that Ferrari is getting put together by the same hands that put the Fiat together. Its just the way it is, deal with it I guess.
    People ask me all the time "who beat you up"? I tell them "a tree". They just look at me funny....

  9. #109
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    Not all Chinese products are made in the pristine conditions described above, there is much more to the story.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Not all Chinese products are made in the pristine conditions described above, there is much more to the story.
    Yes - and I didn't say that what I described was the only thing going on. I've said there is definitely piracy going on, but legit business, too. When I worked in this field, I lost count of how many meetings I went to with Brazilians, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, UK, etc. representatives talking about rebranding my machine.

    The work conditions in China are borderline slavery, with armed guards and big fences, enclosing the dormitory AND the factory. When the whistle blows, the workers walk, among these armed guards, 50 feet to where they have to work. It was pretty intense, and I'm glad to be American. Unless it's Shanghai or Hong Kong, China sucked.

    Taiwan rocked. They are more westernized and have much more freedom than the Chinese.

    Piracy overseas is not taken very lightly. If a factory steals a design, there are serious business consequences to be had, including potential loss of future business - and rarely a factory is willing to risk that. Some rogue factory, maybe - but not the ones with Specialized/Giant/Trek accounts. None of us really know who is making what over there, and it's common (in my experience) that multiple factories are making the same product.

    It's all about money, folks. It's business, not patriotism or brand loyalty. Everybody is getting paid while you waste your time arguing over it. If you really have a problem with this, buy a custom from Rock Lobster, Independent, or another small American company. Otherwise, just accept that you are a pawn in the game of consumerism and GO RIDE. Quit worrying about how others spend their money. Specialized/Trek/Giant are not hurting.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post
    Chum, what bike is that you are riding?
    I like the look.
    Quote Originally Posted by crazy03 View Post
    Looks alot like the Trek Sawyer, but don't quote me on that. Whatever it might be it is very sharp looking.
    it's a custom Hunter 'Super-Swamper'
    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay
    Some of the ebay frames are purchased direct and then resold at a markup.

    If you want to buy direct, try:

    Wholesale carbon frame - Buy Low Price carbon frame Lots on Aliexpress.com

    As stated, I have purchased 3 frames from 3 different suppliers, all still light and still working after 3 years.

    Also have some damn good wing paddles for kayaking.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I clicked my own link to find something intersting. The link was supposed to be for mountain frames, but note there are road frames for sale labeled as "Pinarello," which illustrate the criticims of many posters in this thread.

    YOU CAN'T GET A "PINARELLO DOGMA" FRAMESET FOR $420.

    More like $5,750

    The Chinese "Pinarellos" would be counterfeits. YA THINK?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Yes - and I didn't say that what I described was the only thing going on. I've said there is definitely piracy going on, but legit business, too. When I worked in this field, I lost count of how many meetings I went to with Brazilians, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, UK, etc. representatives talking about rebranding my machine.

    The work conditions in China are borderline slavery, with armed guards and big fences, enclosing the dormitory AND the factory. When the whistle blows, the workers walk, among these armed guards, 50 feet to where they have to work. It was pretty intense, and I'm glad to be American. Unless it's Shanghai or Hong Kong, China sucked.

    Taiwan rocked. They are more westernized and have much more freedom than the Chinese.

    Piracy overseas is not taken very lightly. If a factory steals a design, there are serious business consequences to be had, including potential loss of future business - and rarely a factory is willing to risk that. Some rogue factory, maybe - but not the ones with Specialized/Giant/Trek accounts. None of us really know who is making what over there, and it's common (in my experience) that multiple factories are making the same product.

    It's all about money, folks. It's business, not patriotism or brand loyalty. Everybody is getting paid while you waste your time arguing over it. If you really have a problem with this, buy a custom from Rock Lobster, Independent, or another small American company. Otherwise, just accept that you are a pawn in the game of consumerism and GO RIDE. Quit worrying about how others spend their money. Specialized/Trek/Giant are not hurting.



    Yeah we'll just lower the bar to the lowest common denominator. Screw excelling, we want parity for everyone. Carbon Fiber for all.

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    This thread and debate sort of reminds me of another thing I have spent money on: Suits.
    I see so many people go out buy their name brand crap which is over priced and often sold under false impressions (lies).

    Things like notched lapels, hand stitching all done by a machine. Even some super high priced suits running as high as 20K each where done with machines.... (skipping forwards..)

    Now I hit down at a local tailor (a good one they also very), get my suit completely custom made, from best fabrics, and yes actual hand work done. Cost about 1200 euro.

    My point being its complex; consumer who do not do their research will pay too much. Its just that simple. Sometimes a big brand can have quality but you are also sometimes part of a well oiled marketing machine. The same hands making this or that does not matter as that is also part of manufacturing but one has to also be aware that most the higher end stuff can also just be marketing departments.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I clicked my own link to find something intersting. The link was supposed to be for mountain frames, but note there are road frames for sale labeled as "Pinarello," which illustrate the criticims of many posters in this thread.

    YOU CAN'T GET A "PINARELLO DOGMA" FRAMESET FOR $420.

    More like $5,750

    The Chinese "Pinarellos" would be counterfeits. YA THINK?
    Idk... That frame doesn't look like it would be worth $5000 retail... Just sayin'
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese carbon: why I buy direct-hot-2010-pinarello-dogma-60-1-carbon-road-bike-frames-bicycle-frames-58cm-black-red-fork.jpg  

    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Yeah we'll just lower the bar to the lowest common denominator. Screw excelling, we want parity for everyone. Carbon Fiber for all.
    I'm not saying that how big business is run coincides with my personal ethics, but I'm telling you the way it is. To tell oneself into thinking that big business is some sort of idealistic endeavor - well, is foolish.

    Like I said, if any of you really want to use your wallet as a way of protest, buy custom frames from American shop workers. Even that isn't enough, because the parts you're putting on it will probably be made in China - therefore you would still be funding Chinese manufacturers and thus fueling their business practices, legit or otherwise.

    In a global market, it's very difficult to use your spending habits as a way of protest. We should accept it and do the best we can to support the small guys - and then the ethical dilemma of personal budget comes to play - and we're back at square one.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by (807) Recordings View Post
    This thread and debate sort of reminds me of another thing I have spent money on: Suits.
    I see so many people go out buy their name brand crap which is over priced and often sold under false impressions (lies).

    Things like notched lapels, hand stitching all done by a machine. Even some super high priced suits running as high as 20K each where done with machines.... (skipping forwards..)

    Now I hit down at a local tailor (a good one they also very), get my suit completely custom made, from best fabrics, and yes actual hand work done. Cost about 1200 euro.

    My point being its complex; consumer who do not do their research will pay too much. Its just that simple. Sometimes a big brand can have quality but you are also sometimes part of a well oiled marketing machine. The same hands making this or that does not matter as that is also part of manufacturing but one has to also be aware that most the higher end stuff can also just be marketing departments.
    Totally agree.

    I really feel like I should start selling gold spray painted rocks as jewelry. Seriously, with enough marketing I'd make HUNDREDS.

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Totally agree.

    I really feel like I should start selling gold spray painted rocks as jewelry. Seriously, with enough marketing I'd make HUNDREDS.
    I work for a company now and certain products we have from our Pro to our consumer line are just a few features. Marketing though sells one product for 50 and another for 1500.. Consumer swear there is a difference of course.


  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    it's a custom Hunter 'Super-Swamper'
    Didn't I just say, "don't quote me on that "? Hahaha, get it?
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by (807) Recordings View Post
    Consumer swear there is a difference of course.
    Half the MTBR members in this thread?

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Half the MTBR members in this thread?
    Hey, if I spent 2K on a frame, I too would convince myself there was a difference I have been guilty of this in the past. No more..

  23. #123
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    Hey, I am not saying for sure there isn't a difference but much like my story in another thread of a leg brace I had from alloy, to now carbon the new price was 1/3 the costs. Sure the new one is 100times better but I can't say this applies here.

  24. #124
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    Yes on my Fine Italian AGV Motorcycle gear there is a "Made in China" in the Helmet and some other Oriental writing on the tag in my Leather Suit. Both seem to be of very good quality, the Suit Tested and passed on asphalt


    I do have to say though that in the Construction world Chinese Bolts, steel in general is a very serious problem do to very poor quality.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Yeah we'll just lower the bar to the lowest common denominator. Screw excelling, we want parity for everyone. Carbon Fiber for all.
    Your main purpose on mtbr is to stalk to Bikesdirect threads and spew negativity like you're doing now. I highly doubt you even own a bike, let alone know how to ride.

    It's obvious you're infatuated with Mike (bikesdirect) and drool over pics of the Ti Fly!

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