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  1. #76
    Beer Me!
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    v v v FINALLY THIS THREAD GOT INTERESTING!

    Thanks Chummy

    Edit: Dag nab post time bug, my arrows are now pointing down.

  2. #77
    fresh fish in stock...... SuperModerator
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    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Visit these 2 places to help advance trail access:
    http://www.sharingthepct.org/
    http://www.facebook.com/SharingThePct

  3. #78
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    I pee, therefore, I am(better than you).

    If parts are foreign then I'm fairly certain it has to be labeled "assembled in America" not "made in America". Redwings shoes have to do this even though almost the whole shoe is sourced in the US; with the exception of the metal eyelets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    ....]

    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Hopefully you're a Maco or Snap-On and not some cheap HF rip-off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  5. #80
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    If parts are foreign then I'm fairly certain it has to be labeled "assembled in America" not "made in America". Redwings shoes have to do this even though almost the whole shoe is sourced in the US; with the exception of the metal eyelets.
    U.S. Origin Claims:* Enforcement and Compliance Activities Since December 1997

    I tried reading it, and it all seems a bit murky.

    In any case, I do not even know about many components that are manufactured in USA - from tires to brakes etc. So it is all about frame. And even a frame made here - where did the raw components (tubing, fiber etc.) came from?

    Who cares. Track record of a particular make is far more important.

    All my bikes are made in my garage from parts bought all over the world anyway. I wish I could weld frames as well.

  6. #81
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    Hopefully you're a Maco or Snap-On and not some cheap HF rip-off.
    Somehow I settled on German brands in tools, most I have are Knipex, Bosch, Stahlwille.. But some recent Bosch power tools I got - 12V Multi-X, rotary hammer, came from Asian origin.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    I'm gonna neg rep you just out of jealousy. Been seeing quite a few of those photos from out West recently.
    My upper midwest trails should be nice and frozen this time of year, but we've had mud almost the entire winter. Can't ride, can't ski, too muddy to even hike or trail run. Yep, neg rep for sure.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    But some recent Bosch power tools I got - 12V Multi-X, rotary hammer, came from Asian origin.
    Any carbon in there ?

  9. #84
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Any carbon in there ?
    No. No carbon. Just good tools. I like all kind of tools. Hand tools, power tools. Even online tools.

  10. #85
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    Hmmm, seems like a lot of talk about the ebay generic hard tails. Anyone want to go to bat for knock offs with rear suspension? I wouldn't trust one to save a few bucks, you get what you pay for. Plus warranty and proven suspension design. That's worth some money to me.

    Anyway, how would you even rate a product that technically doesn't exist? "I got mine from that website with all the text in a foreign language I can't read."

    I watched a pretty good video on monocoque carbon frame construction and the internal bagging process blah blah blah. Good engineering, design and support provide a superior product at the end of the day. Just like generic honey nut cheerios aren't nearly as good as the name brand, that's how I feel about my bikes anyway.

  11. #86
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    Yes, especially the online tools.
    Always cheap, often ill-fitting & tweaked turn simple threads into a full blown McGyver.
    And no, not those out riding.
    Last edited by Flyin_W; 02-22-2012 at 04:07 PM. Reason: RE: the pissing contest.
    The best is the one you want to ride most often..

  12. #87
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoopwhoop View Post
    I wouldn't trust one to save a few bucks, you get what you pay for. Plus warranty and proven suspension design. That's worth some money to me.
    And they are not much cheaper then some decent aluminum FS frames deals with good shocks. Plenty of very decent options around $1K if you look around.. Like Titus El Guapo from the new owners, or my Rotwild frame, or some KHS deals one can find..

  13. #88
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    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Are you actually sure about that? I doubt that a bike manufacturer can patent a specific geometry, material choice or production method.

    Yes I'm sure it's stealing... And I'm sure they have patents.

    1) Lets say you have a Trek that you really like and it gets stolen. Rather than buying a new one, you decide to fire up the old welder, bend some tubing and build a bike yourself. Knowing that your old Trek were a great ride you choose to use the same geometry for your home made bike. Does that make you a thief? Do Trek own that particular geometry so that you can't use it too?

    Yes Trek owns the design... Yes you can use it to build your own personal bike. As long as you aren't profiting from it.


    2) Another line of thought. Lets say that you fancy designing a bike from scratch. You bend tubes and weld for years until you finally end up with your perfect bike. By coincidence the geometry happens to be exactly the same as a Santa Cruz model, does that make you a thief? Does Santa Cruz own the rights to that particular geometry?

    Yes... If they have a patent on the frame or type of tubing they own the design. Again... As long as you don't profit from it it's cool.

    3) You're an aspiring bike builder. You buy some bikes and take them apart to look for clever solutions to incorporate in your own bikes. After hacking a bunch of frames to pieces it turns out that Kona does something really clever with the thickness of the tubing, using thicker tubes in some areas of the frame and thinner tube in others. Does learning from that and using similar choices on your bikes make you a thief? Does Kona own the rights to make a thick head tube and a lighter down tube?
    Ah.... Well now that would be blatant stealing! You would be looking to profit in this example...
    Think about it like this....

    Lets say you spent $50,000,000 to design and test a revolutionary new product...
    You file all the patents and send your design to China for production...
    In a month your $2,000 product is being sold on eBay for $50 and nobody buys your product because it's more expensive...

    Would you want to protect that $50,000,000 investment? Or would you just let the Chinese rip you off?

    I imagine you would be the type to sue...
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blake
    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon
    I remember Mike from bikesdirect saying that he preferred to have his better frames to be titanium (and that it did cost him much more to produce then carbon ones). I tend to agree - their titanium frames are very, very well made. I ride my Fly Ti for the third year and it is an excellent hard-tail.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    /\ This x eleventy billion. Some people just seem to be able to justify anything as long as it falls in their favor.

    Like manufacturers and 10 speed.

  17. #92
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    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay



    Calfee can probably fix that for a pretty reasonable fee.

  19. #94
    Titanium junkie
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon
    Yeah, just like the Motobecane Ti frames that Mountain bike rags
    have tested and said they are a VERY GOOD ride. Damn them for
    offering a solid ride!
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  20. #95
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    Chinese carbon for the fail!

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Get some gears, hipster!

    77 and hero dirt here, and my i9's are less girly.

    Oneuppered

    ps, please don't chum me!

  22. #97
    Titanium junkie
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    Chum, what bike is that you are riding?
    I like the look.
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  23. #98
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    FYI to carry the Made in the USA Label it only has to be 60 percent made here, Kind of BS labeling IMO.

    Edit: apparently the percentage I read was about motorcycles, it varies per product.
    They wanted to make a rule like that for all the products, but it is really hard to quantify - how do you count materials and added value. So it is still that vague "all or virtually all" standard. No idea how it is enforced.

    Personally, I do pay some attention to the country of origin. I consider Germany, USA and Japan to be tier 1, Most of the rest of Europe and Taiwan as tier 2, rest as 3. No real reason. I certainly would not buy American made just because it is American made...

  24. #99
    Clyde on a mission!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Again, did they file for a patent? Simply copying someone else's designs does in fact equate to theft. You can can call it what you want to but theft of intellectual property is in fact theft. You may choose to argue the letter of the law, but at the very core of it theft is theft and wrong is wrong. The fact that so many people seem to condone this is why we as a whole are winning the race to the bottom, settling for the lowest common denominator.
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?

  25. #100
    Axe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?
    Indeed. Intellectual property - copyrights, patents, trade secrets, trademarks - all have some pretty strict definitions and limitations. Also, there is such thing as common sense - that makes some of the patents (or trademark claims, like Specialized's "Epic" fiasco) to be very hard to respect.

    I definitely could not care less when buying a German frame directly - possibly infringing on Specialized's FSR patent in US.

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