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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post
    Chum, what bike is that you are riding?
    I like the look.
    Looks alot like the Trek Sawyer, but don't quote me on that. Whatever it might be it is very sharp looking.
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    You avoid answering by asking.
    You ask how do I know it was not "stolen."? I don't.

    But one user posted a photo of the frame he bought. If you or anyone wish to make claims of forgery, counterfeit, rip off and/or theft, it is incumbent upon you to prove the positive, not upon me or anyone else to disprove the negative.

    .
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville View Post
    Good, then it's finally settled. Apparently, The Chinese Carbon Frames ARE NOT THE SAME as those you buy from the major brands.
    So what was the point of this thread?
    That you can buy a quality carbon frame made in the country where all - excuse me - the vast majority - of carbon frames are made, and you don't have to pay the mark up a logo adds to it.

    Whether the frame is "the same as", "as good as", "as reliable as" etc. the name frames is open to debate and a question for each consumer to decide for him or herself before spending his or her money.

    In this world economy, there is no reason that frames can't be just another part which can be purchased by consumers along with other parts, to end up as bikes.

    If it is more economical, reliable or "better" to buy a complete bike from an OEM , so be
    it. If is is preferable to buy parts and self assemble, so be it. The consumer should be able to make the choice. Good grief, I sound like Ron Paul.

    P.S. This discussion concerns hardtails and road frames primarily. Another poster brought up suspension designs, which is a whole nother ballgame.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?



    Your IQ is showing.

  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?



    "kinda similar" and copying are two different things and you are being disingenuous in posting that. I'll simplify it for you, when you got caught copying someone else's work in school you got in trouble right? Why? Because it stealing, its not right.

  7. #107
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    I have two U.S. design patents for a Karaoke Machine (past life/career), and I was the creative behind the design of this machine and microphone (I actually have the original marker drawings of these ). I designed both logos, the colors (we had 5), button layout, etc.



    After I designed this, before this thing even hit the states, it was already being sold in China and Japan, completely rebranded - different colors, different logos. This was completely to the knowledge of the company I worked for, and we were getting a piece of it (a very small piece).

    I've traveled to China and I've been to the factories - witnessing ALL kinds of stuff being made, from bike parts to toys to electronics. They are ALL being made by the same hands, high-end name brand stuff to the most cheapo, er, "Chinese" crap, you can think of. All the same workers making all the same stuff, high-end to low-end - directly side by side one another.

    It was very strange to see the same exact product coming down the belt, but some stuff was being branded "Sony", and others with some Chinese lettering. Some went into the "nice boxes" and some went in to the most low-end Chinese boxes you've ever seen. This was not stealing, this was all done legally.

    Having worked in the world of manufacturing from the art/design perspective, I can vouch that there is piracy, but not on the levels that some of you think there is. There are deals that are made, that we don't know about, between manufacturers and factories regarding branding.

    I can also attest to the engineering. Most of the engineering is done in Taiwan, and they are VERY good. But one thing that makes them different than us, is they follow directions very closely, and they will NOT improve on a product unless told to - they don't exercise a lot of free will when it comes to working for a big name. So when Specialized says "we want it this way" the engineers will not go any other way.

    When the Taiwanese took my design, they actually suggested what they "felt" would work (under the allowance of my boss)... adhering to the same overall look. The new design was exceptional and allowed for internals much better than what I had drawn. They really improved my design and what you see above was the final.

    If a Chinese company was to make a frame, designed by Taiwanese engineers, they aren't coming up with these designs from left field - it is from years and years of experience by working on big name bikes. Think of it as an American engineer breaking off from a big name employer to design his own frames - it would be silly to assume that he/she wasn't heavily influenced by the company he previously worked for.

    Almost everything you have in your home was made in China, even the computers that are allowing you to argue about things made in China. These frames are of exceptional quality, and don't fail any more or less than the ones with stickers on them. The up charge on brand name frames are due to a number of reasons, but quality isn't one of them. There is some piracy going on, but there is also legit business going on, too.

    I worked in China and Taiwan, I witnessed it all for myself, from the cad engineers to the actual factory workers. I do have to admit, Chinese factories are pretty hardcore and you come to realize why labor is so cheap.

    I get a little tired of the hypocritical nonsense of "Chinese crap" or "Bikesdirect crap". Unless you've worked in international manufacturing, your views are biased presumptions. There is a lot of business going on over there between U.S. manufacturers and factories, and everybody is getting a piece of the action.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    I have two U.S. design patents for a Karaoke Machine (past life/career), and I was the creative behind the design of this machine and microphone (I actually have the original marker drawings of these ). I designed both logos, the colors (we had 5), button layout, etc.



    After I designed this, before this thing even hit the states, it was already being sold in China and Japan, completely rebranded - different colors, different logos. This was completely to the knowledge of the company I worked for, and we were getting a piece of it (a very small piece).

    I've traveled to China and I've been to the factories - witnessing ALL kinds of stuff being made, from bike parts to toys to electronics. They are ALL being made by the same hands, high-end name brand stuff to the most cheapo, er, "Chinese" crap, you can think of. All the same workers making all the same stuff, high-end to low-end - directly side by side one another.

    It was very strange to see the same exact product coming down the belt, but some stuff was being branded "Sony", and others with some Chinese lettering. Some went into the "nice boxes" and some went in to the most low-end Chinese boxes you've ever seen. This was not stealing, this was all done legally.

    Having worked in the world of manufacturing from the art/design perspective, I can vouch that there is piracy, but not on the levels that some of you think there is. There are deals that are made, that we don't know about, between manufacturers and factories regarding branding.

    I can also attest to the engineering. Most of the engineering is done in Taiwan, and they are VERY good. But one thing that makes them different than us, is they follow directions very closely, and they will NOT improve on a product unless told to - they don't exercise a lot of free will when it comes to working for a big name. So when Specialized says "we want it this way" the engineers will not go any other way.

    When the Taiwanese took my design, they actually suggested what they "felt" would work (under the allowance of my boss)... adhering to the same overall look. The new design was exceptional and allowed for internals much better than what I had drawn. They really improved my design and what you see above was the final.

    If a Chinese company was to make a frame, designed by Taiwanese engineers, they aren't coming up with these designs from left field - it is from years and years of experience by working on big name bikes. Think of it as an American engineer breaking off from a big name employer to design his own frames - it would be silly to assume that he/she wasn't heavily influenced by the company he previously worked for.

    Almost everything you have in your home was made in China, even the computers that are allowing you to argue about things made in China. These frames are of exceptional quality, and don't fail any more or less than the ones with stickers on them. The up charge on brand name frames are due to a number of reasons, but quality isn't one of them. There is some piracy going on, but there is also legit business going on, too.

    I worked in China and Taiwan, I witnessed it all for myself, from the cad engineers to the actual factory workers. I do have to admit, Chinese factories are pretty hardcore and you come to realize why labor is so cheap.
    ^^ Well there you go folks. I would suppose those of us who feel the need to buy items with the big stickers on them will have to look to other reasons to justify our purchases, reasons other than "quality". The tested reliability of a certain name brand, as well as the support it garners (Trek dealer in town will fix a Trek for free in most cases), and warranties will have to be enough for most of us.

    Otherwise I totally believe Dion. I have heard the same about car manufacturing overseas. Yes that Ferrari is getting put together by the same hands that put the Fiat together. Its just the way it is, deal with it I guess.
    People ask me all the time "who beat you up"? I tell them "a tree". They just look at me funny....

  9. #109
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    Not all Chinese products are made in the pristine conditions described above, there is much more to the story.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Not all Chinese products are made in the pristine conditions described above, there is much more to the story.
    Yes - and I didn't say that what I described was the only thing going on. I've said there is definitely piracy going on, but legit business, too. When I worked in this field, I lost count of how many meetings I went to with Brazilians, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, UK, etc. representatives talking about rebranding my machine.

    The work conditions in China are borderline slavery, with armed guards and big fences, enclosing the dormitory AND the factory. When the whistle blows, the workers walk, among these armed guards, 50 feet to where they have to work. It was pretty intense, and I'm glad to be American. Unless it's Shanghai or Hong Kong, China sucked.

    Taiwan rocked. They are more westernized and have much more freedom than the Chinese.

    Piracy overseas is not taken very lightly. If a factory steals a design, there are serious business consequences to be had, including potential loss of future business - and rarely a factory is willing to risk that. Some rogue factory, maybe - but not the ones with Specialized/Giant/Trek accounts. None of us really know who is making what over there, and it's common (in my experience) that multiple factories are making the same product.

    It's all about money, folks. It's business, not patriotism or brand loyalty. Everybody is getting paid while you waste your time arguing over it. If you really have a problem with this, buy a custom from Rock Lobster, Independent, or another small American company. Otherwise, just accept that you are a pawn in the game of consumerism and GO RIDE. Quit worrying about how others spend their money. Specialized/Trek/Giant are not hurting.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loudviking View Post
    Chum, what bike is that you are riding?
    I like the look.
    Quote Originally Posted by crazy03 View Post
    Looks alot like the Trek Sawyer, but don't quote me on that. Whatever it might be it is very sharp looking.
    it's a custom Hunter 'Super-Swamper'
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  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay
    Some of the ebay frames are purchased direct and then resold at a markup.

    If you want to buy direct, try:

    Wholesale carbon frame - Buy Low Price carbon frame Lots on Aliexpress.com

    As stated, I have purchased 3 frames from 3 different suppliers, all still light and still working after 3 years.

    Also have some damn good wing paddles for kayaking.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I clicked my own link to find something intersting. The link was supposed to be for mountain frames, but note there are road frames for sale labeled as "Pinarello," which illustrate the criticims of many posters in this thread.

    YOU CAN'T GET A "PINARELLO DOGMA" FRAMESET FOR $420.

    More like $5,750

    The Chinese "Pinarellos" would be counterfeits. YA THINK?
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  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Yes - and I didn't say that what I described was the only thing going on. I've said there is definitely piracy going on, but legit business, too. When I worked in this field, I lost count of how many meetings I went to with Brazilians, Mexicans, Chinese, Japanese, UK, etc. representatives talking about rebranding my machine.

    The work conditions in China are borderline slavery, with armed guards and big fences, enclosing the dormitory AND the factory. When the whistle blows, the workers walk, among these armed guards, 50 feet to where they have to work. It was pretty intense, and I'm glad to be American. Unless it's Shanghai or Hong Kong, China sucked.

    Taiwan rocked. They are more westernized and have much more freedom than the Chinese.

    Piracy overseas is not taken very lightly. If a factory steals a design, there are serious business consequences to be had, including potential loss of future business - and rarely a factory is willing to risk that. Some rogue factory, maybe - but not the ones with Specialized/Giant/Trek accounts. None of us really know who is making what over there, and it's common (in my experience) that multiple factories are making the same product.

    It's all about money, folks. It's business, not patriotism or brand loyalty. Everybody is getting paid while you waste your time arguing over it. If you really have a problem with this, buy a custom from Rock Lobster, Independent, or another small American company. Otherwise, just accept that you are a pawn in the game of consumerism and GO RIDE. Quit worrying about how others spend their money. Specialized/Trek/Giant are not hurting.



    Yeah we'll just lower the bar to the lowest common denominator. Screw excelling, we want parity for everyone. Carbon Fiber for all.

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    This thread and debate sort of reminds me of another thing I have spent money on: Suits.
    I see so many people go out buy their name brand crap which is over priced and often sold under false impressions (lies).

    Things like notched lapels, hand stitching all done by a machine. Even some super high priced suits running as high as 20K each where done with machines.... (skipping forwards..)

    Now I hit down at a local tailor (a good one they also very), get my suit completely custom made, from best fabrics, and yes actual hand work done. Cost about 1200 euro.

    My point being its complex; consumer who do not do their research will pay too much. Its just that simple. Sometimes a big brand can have quality but you are also sometimes part of a well oiled marketing machine. The same hands making this or that does not matter as that is also part of manufacturing but one has to also be aware that most the higher end stuff can also just be marketing departments.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I clicked my own link to find something intersting. The link was supposed to be for mountain frames, but note there are road frames for sale labeled as "Pinarello," which illustrate the criticims of many posters in this thread.

    YOU CAN'T GET A "PINARELLO DOGMA" FRAMESET FOR $420.

    More like $5,750

    The Chinese "Pinarellos" would be counterfeits. YA THINK?
    Idk... That frame doesn't look like it would be worth $5000 retail... Just sayin'
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese carbon: why I buy direct-hot-2010-pinarello-dogma-60-1-carbon-road-bike-frames-bicycle-frames-58cm-black-red-fork.jpg  

    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Yeah we'll just lower the bar to the lowest common denominator. Screw excelling, we want parity for everyone. Carbon Fiber for all.
    I'm not saying that how big business is run coincides with my personal ethics, but I'm telling you the way it is. To tell oneself into thinking that big business is some sort of idealistic endeavor - well, is foolish.

    Like I said, if any of you really want to use your wallet as a way of protest, buy custom frames from American shop workers. Even that isn't enough, because the parts you're putting on it will probably be made in China - therefore you would still be funding Chinese manufacturers and thus fueling their business practices, legit or otherwise.

    In a global market, it's very difficult to use your spending habits as a way of protest. We should accept it and do the best we can to support the small guys - and then the ethical dilemma of personal budget comes to play - and we're back at square one.

  18. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by (807) Recordings View Post
    This thread and debate sort of reminds me of another thing I have spent money on: Suits.
    I see so many people go out buy their name brand crap which is over priced and often sold under false impressions (lies).

    Things like notched lapels, hand stitching all done by a machine. Even some super high priced suits running as high as 20K each where done with machines.... (skipping forwards..)

    Now I hit down at a local tailor (a good one they also very), get my suit completely custom made, from best fabrics, and yes actual hand work done. Cost about 1200 euro.

    My point being its complex; consumer who do not do their research will pay too much. Its just that simple. Sometimes a big brand can have quality but you are also sometimes part of a well oiled marketing machine. The same hands making this or that does not matter as that is also part of manufacturing but one has to also be aware that most the higher end stuff can also just be marketing departments.
    Totally agree.

    I really feel like I should start selling gold spray painted rocks as jewelry. Seriously, with enough marketing I'd make HUNDREDS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Totally agree.

    I really feel like I should start selling gold spray painted rocks as jewelry. Seriously, with enough marketing I'd make HUNDREDS.
    I work for a company now and certain products we have from our Pro to our consumer line are just a few features. Marketing though sells one product for 50 and another for 1500.. Consumer swear there is a difference of course.


  20. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    it's a custom Hunter 'Super-Swamper'
    Didn't I just say, "don't quote me on that "? Hahaha, get it?
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by (807) Recordings View Post
    Consumer swear there is a difference of course.
    Half the MTBR members in this thread?

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    Half the MTBR members in this thread?
    Hey, if I spent 2K on a frame, I too would convince myself there was a difference I have been guilty of this in the past. No more..

  23. #123
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    Hey, I am not saying for sure there isn't a difference but much like my story in another thread of a leg brace I had from alloy, to now carbon the new price was 1/3 the costs. Sure the new one is 100times better but I can't say this applies here.

  24. #124
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    Yes on my Fine Italian AGV Motorcycle gear there is a "Made in China" in the Helmet and some other Oriental writing on the tag in my Leather Suit. Both seem to be of very good quality, the Suit Tested and passed on asphalt


    I do have to say though that in the Construction world Chinese Bolts, steel in general is a very serious problem do to very poor quality.

  25. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Yeah we'll just lower the bar to the lowest common denominator. Screw excelling, we want parity for everyone. Carbon Fiber for all.
    Your main purpose on mtbr is to stalk to Bikesdirect threads and spew negativity like you're doing now. I highly doubt you even own a bike, let alone know how to ride.

    It's obvious you're infatuated with Mike (bikesdirect) and drool over pics of the Ti Fly!

  26. #126
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    Another example is Fox Kashima coating. Yes, it's better than without it, but the difference is so minimal you couldn't tell without taking precise friction level measurement with special equipment... But people will prefer to get the new 2012 Fox full price instead of the closeout 2011 one that is exactly the same except for the Kashima coating.... It's better, but not like they try to make us think.

    I was looking at the frames for sale (dwt's link) and if they can sell you a full carbon HT frame for $400, well they could sell you the same for $700 here if made in America, because they would have higher salary for their workers, but the material itself won't justify the frame to be sold $1500 here... Anyways
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  27. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus View Post
    Your main purpose on mtbr is to stalk to Bikesdirect threads and spew negativity like you're doing now. I highly doubt you even own a bike, let alone know how to ride.

    It's obvious you're infatuated with Mike (bikesdirect) and drool over pics of the Ti Fly!


    Wrong thread, this isn't a BD thread. BD doesn't even do carbon mtb's.
    Last edited by AZ; 02-23-2012 at 01:11 PM.

  28. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    P.S. This discussion concerns hardtails and road frames primarily. Another poster brought up suspension designs, which is a whole nother ballgame.
    Which are both laaaaaame. Unsubscribing in 3...2...1.....

  29. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Wrong thread, this isn't a BD thread. BD doesn't even do carbon.
    I made two points. Apparently you missed the second one.

    Good job sticking up for your buddy though. You seem to love BD as much as he does

  30. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus View Post
    I made two points. Apparently you missed the second one.

    Good job sticking up for your buddy though. You seem to love BD as much as he does



    I just thought you might be lost. No hate from me, more like ambiguity. As long as Mike doesn't spam the board I have no issues with BD. Just as a side note , I'm not sticking up for anyone. So please don't project me into any of your scenarios. TIA.

  31. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoopwhoop View Post
    Which are both laaaaaame. Unsubscribing in 3...2...1.....
    See ya. Do you drive a lifted truck with monster truck tires by any chance?

  32. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    See ya. Do you drive a lifted truck with monster truck tires by any chance?
    Of course, how else would I get my 40lb DH bike to the trail head?

  33. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Wrong thread, this isn't a BD thread. BD doesn't even do carbon.
    They have very nice CF road bikes.

  34. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dion View Post
    They have very nice CF road bikes.



    Sorry, I made an assumption that everyone knew we were discussing mountain bikes. So much for assumptions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Sorry, I made an assumption that everyone knew we were discussing mountain bikes. So much for assumptions.
    Apparently we're discussing multiple things, including Karaoke Machines.

    No need for you to police what should and should not be discussed. We have mods that take care of that.

  36. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus View Post
    Apparently we're discussing multiple things, including Karaoke Machines.

    No need for you to police what should and should not be discussed. We have mods that take care of that.


    I'm not policing anything, I responded to a post. If you don't like what I put up there bad post me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus View Post
    Your main purpose on mtbr is to stalk to Bikesdirect threads and spew negativity like you're doing now. I highly doubt you even own a bike, let alone know how to ride.

    It's obvious you're infatuated with Mike (bikesdirect) and drool over pics of the Ti Fly!




    Pardon, I didn't know you two were still dating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus View Post
    Apparently we're discussing multiple things, including Karaoke Machines.

    No need for you to police what should and should not be discussed. We have mods that take care of that.


    Troll fail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dictatorsaurus View Post
    I made two points. Apparently you missed the second one.

    Good job sticking up for your buddy though. You seem to love BD as much as he does


    Another fail.

  40. #140
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    I wonder if they would make a carbon copy of one of these as well ?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese carbon: why I buy direct-unicorn-bike.jpg  


  41. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    I wonder if they would make a carbon copy of one of these as well ?

    Without the rainbow please.

  42. #142
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    I am surprised this thread is still continuing. So i guess i might as well sturr the pot, aheemm i mean contribute.

    To my somewhat limited knowledge, the majority of carbon frames are made by only 6 manufacturers (3 in Taiwan, 3 in China). So the carbon frame in question could be coming off the exact same floor as say a Cervelo or a Scott or a Giant. For example Trigon (Great Go Manufacturing labeled brand) is a large manufacturer of carbon frames. Rumored to make the likes of Blue Cycles, and some of the many other high end frames. See here:
    Bike Frame of Taiwan Trigon Exotic Bicycle Frames Manufacturers, Suppliers
    (many of them look quite familure, also note the Horst Link, muhahaha )

    You can purchase a Trigon frame with the "Trigon label" or a Blue road bike with the fancy paint job and prestige, or you can purchase a raw non brand frame. All three might be the almost exactly same thing, from the same manufacturer, hand layered by the same foreigner named George. If you are buying carbon its probably not USA. (Unless Trek still makes their high end bikes in Texas, that to my (once again limited) knowledge is the only way you can get a USA made carbon frame.)

    I don't even know what my point is, i just am adding some information to this flame fest. Maybe my point is that if you ride carbon, its probably from China (or Taiwan), regardless of brand name.

  43. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Without the rainbow please.
    Ofcourse.
    It will be carbon black with red eyes to look more agressive on the trails.

  44. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Ofcourse.
    It will be carbon black with red eyes to look more agressive on the trails.
    Done:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  45. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    Done:



    Flames, needs flames.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    "kinda similar" and copying are two different things and you are being disingenuous in posting that. I'll simplify it for you, when you got caught copying someone else's work in school you got in trouble right? Why? Because it stealing, its not right.
    But if I got the same answers as someone else without copying it was alright, wasn't it? At least assuming the answers were correct.

    Sticking with your school metaphor, the whole point of testing in school was that ideally everyone would put their knowledge into play, using taught methods to solve problems and hopefully all end up with the same correct answers. Take a math equation for example, someone will isolate one part of the equation before another and someone else will do it the other way around, but if both do it correct they'll end up with the same result. That doesn't make it copying or stealing.

    What I'm saying here is, that there can be several approaches to bike building that still ends up as very similar bikes without any copying or stealing going on. Sure some people will just bring out a tape measure and steal the exact design from someone else, that's theft. But then again another guy might just experiment until he has a bike that handles the way he likes it and accidentally end up with the same design as someone else, that doesn't make it stealing.

    Can you deal with that or do you wish to continue playing the "stealing is stealing"-card without really considering if it's actually theft or not?

  47. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    Done:
    You're a hero !
    But i am having a hard time trying to figure out if it should be a 26 or29er ?

  48. #148
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    i had a carbon chinese pelvis once....
    it broke.


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    A perfect rig for crowded trails.

    Ya think 13th century intellectual copyrights are still in effect for Jousting?

  50. #150
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    IT'S PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME !!!!!!!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  51. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Idk... That frame doesn't look like it would be worth $5000 retail... Just sayin'
    Clearly Pinarello goes over the top trying to market unique tubing. Not aesthetically pleasing to most of us. But they sponsor the Brit Team Sky professionally, so their ugly bike is raced by the most well know sprinter in the world, Mark Cavendish.

    You would THINK they would be the LAST manufacturer to copy, steal, or counterfeit, due to how recognizable the product is. Unless, of course, there is some under the table deal or the chinese builder doesn't give a crap about infringement.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  52. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guerdonian View Post
    Done:
    I don't see a helmet on him

    Just kidding, but seriously, put a helmet on him
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  53. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoopwhoop View Post
    Which are both laaaaaame. Unsubscribing in 3...2...1.....
    Dude, this is NOT the AM forum. Sorry to bother your radical ass with hardtails and road bikes.

    P.S. Doesn't everybody own (at least) one of each: AM bike; hardtail; singlespeed; road bike?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  54. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Flames, needs flames.
    How bout Laser Eyes too....
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  55. #155
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    lotso mad bro's in here.


  56. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    But if I got the same answers as someone else without copying it was alright, wasn't it? At least assuming the answers were correct.

    Sticking with your school metaphor, the whole point of testing in school was that ideally everyone would put their knowledge into play, using taught methods to solve problems and hopefully all end up with the same correct answers. Take a math equation for example, someone will isolate one part of the equation before another and someone else will do it the other way around, but if both do it correct they'll end up with the same result. That doesn't make it copying or stealing.

    What I'm saying here is, that there can be several approaches to bike building that still ends up as very similar bikes without any copying or stealing going on. Sure some people will just bring out a tape measure and steal the exact design from someone else, that's theft. But then again another guy might just experiment until he has a bike that handles the way he likes it and accidentally end up with the same design as someone else, that doesn't make it stealing.

    Can you deal with that or do you wish to continue playing the "stealing is stealing"-card without really considering if it's actually theft or not?


    We were discussing theft by copies, not end results reached through entirely different approaches. You can continue to twist your argument to suit your needs all you want, it does not alter the original premise of the discussion. Can you deal with that?

  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy03 View Post
    I don't see a helmet on him

    Just kidding, but seriously, put a helmet on him
    Preferably one like this :
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    But if I got the same answers as someone else without copying it was alright, wasn't it? At least assuming the answers were correct.

    Sticking with your school metaphor, the whole point of testing in school was that ideally everyone would put their knowledge into play, using taught methods to solve problems and hopefully all end up with the same correct answers. Take a math equation for example, someone will isolate one part of the equation before another and someone else will do it the other way around, but if both do it correct they'll end up with the same result. That doesn't make it copying or stealing.

    What I'm saying here is, that there can be several approaches to bike building that still ends up as very similar bikes without any copying or stealing going on. Sure some people will just bring out a tape measure and steal the exact design from someone else, that's theft. But then again another guy might just experiment until he has a bike that handles the way he likes it and accidentally end up with the same design as someone else, that doesn't make it stealing.






    Can you deal with that or do you wish to continue playing the "stealing is stealing"-card without really considering if it's actually theft or not?


    But, but, but. Your side of the argument keeps evolving, morphing into something that does not even resemble the original premise. You sure are desperate. Keep trying.

  59. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy03 View Post
    I don't see a helmet on him

    Just kidding, but seriously, put a helmet on him
    Done.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  60. #160
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    So far, we have covered multiple topics of interest:

    1. Carbon frames

    2. Karaoke machines

    3. How lame road bikes and hard tail mountain bikes are vs gnar gnar AM radicalness

    4. The surprising demand for a bike made from unicorn instead of carbon

    5. Some MTBR members clearly fancy themselves as moderators

    6. That rydbyk is a chinese carbon racer fanboi and has no right to be

    7. etc etc

  61. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Another fail.
    I got 3 green chicklets and 2 red for this thread.

    How did you do, sunshine?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  62. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I got 3 green chicklets and 2 red for this thread.

    How did you do, sunshine?

    1 green one princess.

    I gave you one more green one.

    If it wasen't obvious, I don't give a rats ass about rep, I will speak my mind wether its a popular opinion or not.

  63. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    lotso mad bro's in here.

    Busted.

    And this is only a frame thread.

    You want some REAL bad boys in pissing contests, find the nearest 29'er vs. 26'er thread or flat vs. clipless. Woo hoo.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  64. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Preferably one like this :
    Done
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    So far, we have covered multiple topics of interest:

    1. Carbon frames

    2. Karaoke machines

    3. How lame road bikes and hard tail mountain bikes are vs gnar gnar AM radicalness

    4. The surprising demand for a bike made from unicorn instead of carbon

    5. Some MTBR members clearly fancy themselves as moderators

    6. That rydbyk is a chinese carbon racer fanboi and has no right to be

    7. etc etc
    That about sums it up. I unsubscribed but I can't stop looking, it's like a car accident

  66. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    1 green one princess.

    I gave you one more green one.
    Well I'll be damned. Figured you were one of the reds. You can't tell, can you

    I'm definitely one of those guys who has a long list of both, luckily so far the greens outnumber the reds.

    It's just my personality and no, my wife is not impressed. She makes me take happy pills.
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  67. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Done.
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  68. #168
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    dwt, if you are insinuating that i neg repped you, that is not the case. i dont neg people! but yes, i'm guilty of trying to lighten a very angry thread. its angry to the point of silly.

  69. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    So far, we have covered multiple topics of interest:

    1. Carbon frames

    2. Karaoke machines

    3. How lame road bikes and hard tail mountain bikes are vs gnar gnar AM radicalness

    4. The surprising demand for a bike made from unicorn instead of carbon

    5. Some MTBR members clearly fancy themselves as moderators

    6. That rydbyk is a chinese carbon racer fanboi and has no right to be

    7. etc etc
    The Senseless killing all for man

    Name:  unicorn.jpg
Views: 449
Size:  7.2 KB

  70. #170
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    i dont trust teh cheep carbonz
    when people ask, i say "i got wood" lawlocaust!

  71. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    i dont trust teh cheep carbonz
    when people ask, i say "i got wood" lawlocaust!
    Is that pine?

  72. #172
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    Are they making carbon fiber unicycle yet ? I'm tired of sitting down on a patched Niner carbon fork with a lame Ti saddle meanwhile...
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoopwhoop View Post
    That about sums it up. I unsubscribed but I can't stop looking, it's like a car accident
    Be safe..

    This thread's more like a train wreck.

  74. #174
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    can i close this thread yet?

    i am too tired to read the whole damn thing....



    * the senseless unicorn death pic is funny though *
    Click Here for Forum Rules

  75. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    We were discussing theft by copies, not end results reached through entirely different approaches. You can continue to twist your argument to suit your needs all you want, it does not alter the original premise of the discussion. Can you deal with that?
    Read the original article again. It mentions that a lot of different brands and non-brands are in fact made in the same factory. You can insist that the thread should be about copy theft instead, but that doesn't make it so.

  76. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    can i close this thread yet?

    i am too tired to read the whole damn thing....



    * the senseless unicorn death pic is funny though *
    Don't close it...
    just replace it in the bin.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    can i close this thread yet?

    i am too tired to read the whole damn thing....
    Wait !!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese carbon: why I buy direct-doubled_chinese.jpg  

    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  78. #178
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    $300 for crabs? I know of places you can get that for $20.
    2010 Giant Yukon FX
    Pure XCR Wheelset/Geax Saguaro Tires/Tubeless
    Bike Weight Lost: 2.48lbs (1124g)

  79. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    $300 for crabs? I know of places you can get that for $20.
    I know girls that give them away after a few beers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Read the original article again. It mentions that a lot of different brands and non-brands are in fact made in the same factory. You can insist that the thread should be about copy theft instead, but that doesn't make it so.
    This has finally turned into a respectable thread, please stop trying to derail it.
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Wait !!
    Well now that we have a 德超级折扣碳纤维自行车折扣店
    (super d's discount carbon fiber bikes discount shop)
    This thread can be gracefully put to an end.

  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Well now that we have a 德超级折扣碳纤维自行车折扣店
    (super d's discount carbon fiber bikes discount shop)
    This thread can be gracefully put to an end.
    You forgot about the on site buffet and massage parlor as well.
    2010 Giant Yukon FX
    Pure XCR Wheelset/Geax Saguaro Tires/Tubeless
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperSlow35th View Post
    $300 for crabs? I know of places you can get that for $20.
    No, not crabs. * Super D's Discount Bike Shop in Daytona, FL is selling only the highest quality carbon frames produced in China, now just $300.
    * Google translator Cantonese--> English.

  84. #184
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    this is pretty much what i gathered from the whole thread.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flyin_W View Post
    No, not crabs. * Super D's Discount Bike Shop in Daytona, FL is selling only the highest quality carbon frames produced in China, now just $300.
    * Google translator Cantonese--> English.
    In fact it's traditional Chinese. Because it's traditional Chinese CF here. No crappy America replica...

    Here's the traduction :

    DOUBLE D's STRIP CLUB bike shop & buffet
    All you can eat CRABS
    Jizzwire
    SPECIALS $300
    White & orange strips
    "O" bike
    Lance ride CCC
    Cavendish ain't no girl with his glitter bike
    Ask for our special soup
    Penis enlargement => Entrance behind
    Handicap parking
    No dog allowed (unless you order special soup)
    Mr. Ming No-tube wheels are in stock !

    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Dude, this is NOT the AM forum. Sorry to bother your radical ass with hardtails and road bikes.

    P.S. Doesn't everybody own (at least) one of each: AM bike; hardtail; singlespeed; road bike?
    Nor is it the XC or roadie forum. My road bike is a beach cruiser, my hardtail SS is a dirt jumper.

  87. #187
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    My other bike is a non CF Narwhal.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Chinese carbon: why I buy direct-narwhal-bike.jpg  


  88. #188
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    Edit, guy below me beat me to it

  89. #189
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    Well time to leave the office boys !

    You have a few seconds to shot off your speakers, because it's Narwhals time !!!

    Be removing in 2 minutes removed

    Permalink here !!
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  90. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Thank's for ruining the next 3 days....
    (cause that's how long it took last week to get it out of my head)


    I know the song by heart

    btw, you better remove the flash animation, cause people are gonna go crazy in 3 minutes
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

  91. #191
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  92. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post

    btw, you better remove the flash animation, cause people are gonna go crazy in 3 minutes
    I think i will be waiting a bit longer with that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Read the original article again. It mentions that a lot of different brands and non-brands are in fact made in the same factory. You can insist that the thread should be about copy theft instead, but that doesn't make it so.


    Jus because they are made in the same factory does not mean that they are not infringements, you really are reaching now. Fail.

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    Please ban who ever posted that stupid effing song.

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by floydlippencott View Post
    Please ban who ever posted that stupid effing song.
    No love for Narvals?

  96. #196
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    No, someone here definetly has no love for Narwhals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David C View Post
    Well time to leave the office boys !

    You have a few seconds to shot off your speakers, because it's Narwhals time !!!

    Be removing in 2 minutes removed
    TURN IT OFF!!!!
    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  98. #198
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    Unicorn love and narwhals, this thread rules. I was expecting long drawn out circular diiatribes that lead nowhere; I'm glad it was actually full of win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  99. #199
    ******
    Reputation: monzie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
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    Visual representation:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  100. #200
    Huckin' trails
    Reputation: David C's Avatar
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    May 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy03 View Post
    TURN IT OFF!!!!
    I have turned it off... It's up to Rabies now... Don't blame me, I've timed 2 minutes and hold my word... I'm not responsible for the others in the kinder garden here...

    Edit : Nevermind, the shark has eaten the narwhals in less time it takes to shift a SS....
    Quote Originally Posted by NicoleB28 View Post
    topless. that's what all mtb girls do. we go ride, get topless, have pillow fights in the woods, scissor, then ride home!

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