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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    All carbon fiber frames are made in China.
    That's not true. I know Trek still makes their OCLV frames in the United States.

    And I'll add that according to Trek's website, they have 4 different grades of carbon fiber frames. The three highest grades are all OCLV and made in the US. Then they have the lower grade which they describe as "value-orientated" and that is made in Asia. Clearly there's more to a CF frame than just the fact that it's a CF frame.
    Last edited by trailville; 02-22-2012 at 11:47 AM.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by trailville View Post
    That's not true. I know Trek still makes their OCLV frames in the United States.

    And I'll add that according to Trek's website, they have 4 different grades of carbon fiber frames. The three highest grades are all OCLV and made in the US. Then they have the lower grade which they describe as "value-orientated" and that is made in Asia. Clearly there's more to a CF frame than just the fact that it's a CF frame.
    I want my carbon made overseas in Asia...don't care if it is a Colnago or Trek. They do it best.

    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    I want my carbon made overseas in Asia...don't care if it is a Colnago or Trek. They do it best.

    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy




    Heavens forbid we do something to help our economy.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Heavens forbid we do something to help our economy.
    You don't actually think Trek has decided to make their high end frames in the USA to "help our economy" do you? That is laughable in my opinion..

    My guess is that it is pure marketing...which seems to appeal to some...

    That was my point in case you missed it.

    There is hypocrisy in your comment IF you own a single item that was made overseas that could have been purchased from an American manufacturer btw..

  5. #55
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    FYI to carry the Made in the USA Label it only has to be 60 percent made here, Kind of BS labeling IMO.

    Edit: apparently the percentage I read was about motorcycles, it varies per product.

    ‘Made in America’ rules are confusing - Business - US business - Made in America - msnbc.com

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    FYI to carry the Made in the USA Label it only has to be 60 percent made here, I have no Idea how they determine that but it is what it is, Kind of BS labeling IMO.
    Yes...I read an article about this. It is not even 60% "made"...more like 60% of the "cost" to "make" the frame complete and ready to sell.....aka a fancy paint job done in the USA only = "made in USA" or made in Germany etc etc label..

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Uhmmmm, your both acting like kids but I believe you started the poo flinging. Just sayin.
    But MOMMMM!


    Flloyd flung:

    "Never any shortage of people to purchase the cheapest possibble crap and then trumpet what a great deal it was and how anyone that bought anything better is a sucker."

    And I replied:

    "Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses."

    Who flung the first turd? Just sayin'
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    You don't actually think Trek has decided to make their high end frames in the USA to "help our economy" do you? That is laughable in my opinion..

    My guess is that it is pure marketing...which seems to appeal to some...

    That was my point in case you missed it.

    There is hypocrisy in your comment IF you own a single item that was made overseas that could have been purchased from an American manufacturer btw..


    Broad, sweeping assumptions on your part. Do not even suggest that I am a hypocrite thank you.

  9. #59
    dwt
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    I want my carbon made overseas in Asia...don't care if it is a Colnago or Trek. They do it best.

    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy
    I want the best value. There is no free lunch, but I'll take my risk with the NON-STOLEN chinese frame for $300 rather than the one that says "Specialized" and costs $3000

    Though I MAY make an exception for a Scott Genius 650b when it comes out
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    I want the best value. There is no free lunch, but I'll take my risk with the NON-STOLEN chinese frame for $300 rather than the one that says "Specialized" and costs $3000


    How do yo know it was not "stolen" and why are you drawing comparisons to "Specialized"? Your making assumptions about the source and you really don't know the source. Your continued inclusion of name brands in this discussion only make you look the fool IMO. I'm glad you like your frame but your motives are suspect at best.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    But MOMMMM!


    Flloyd flung:

    "Never any shortage of people to purchase the cheapest possibble crap and then trumpet what a great deal it was and how anyone that bought anything better is a sucker."

    And I replied:

    "Conversely, no shortage of freds and barneys who buy the most expensive, most up-to-the-minute, most over hyped, most heavily marketed, and most over priced bling, and look down their noses at folks who can't afford it and buy cheaper equivalents - - oh, and still kick their asses."

    Who flung the first turd? Just sayin'



    Nice, arguing about who is more wrong. Your both acting like tools IMHO.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    There is absolutely no reason Trek does carbon in the USA other than to say it is made in the USA and perhaps help the local economy
    I'm sure the "Made in USA" is part of it, but part of it may be in maintaining quality control (high-end frames tend to be so light and thin that they can't afford to have any quality issues) and part of it may be that they don't want to risk sharing their techniques, tooling, knowledge with a 3rd party manufacturer that may then start selling "same as" frames on the internet.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    How do yo know it was not "stolen" and why are you drawing comparisons to "Specialized"? Your making assumptions about the source and you really don't know the source. Your continued inclusion of name brands in this discussion only make you look the fool IMO. I'm glad you like your frame but your motives are suspect at best.
    Redmr2__man posted up his frame. Tell us who it was ripped off from. If nobody then who is the fool?
    Old enough to know better. And old enough not to care. Best age to be.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Redmr2__man posted up his frame. Tell us who it was ripped off from. If nobody then who is the fool?



    You avoid answering by asking.

  15. #65
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    AZ..thank you for being the moderator here. Totally unnecessary btw. You call people out for name calling/arguing and then proceed to call them "tools".

    Yes. That is a hypocrite.

    Thanks.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwt View Post
    Redmr2__man posted up his frame. Tell us who it was ripped off from. If nobody then who is the fool?
    Good, then it's finally settled. Apparently, The Chinese Carbon Frames ARE NOT THE SAME as those you buy from the major brands.
    So what was the point of this thread?
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    AZ..thank you for being the moderator here. Totally unnecessary btw. You call people out for name calling/arguing and then proceed to call them "tools".

    Yes. That is a hypocrite.

    Thanks.


    No, I posted that they were both acting like tools. Big difference. You take it however you perceive your world by the way. I respect your right to not agree with me but calling me a hypocrite just points to your shortcomings with the written word and the comprehension of its context.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    AZ..thank you for being the moderator here. Totally unnecessary btw. You call people out for name calling/arguing and then proceed to call them "tools".

    Yes. That is a hypocrite.

    Thanks.


    Really? That's not how I read that.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    No, I posted that they were both acting like tools. Big difference. You take it however you perceive your world by the way. I respect your right to not agree with me but calling me a hypocrite just points to your shortcomings with the written word and the comprehension of its context.
    Jab jab... I do ok coach..

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by rydbyk View Post
    Jab jab... I do ok coach..


    Your right, that was a bit out of line. My sincerest apologies.

  21. #71
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    Ahhhh...Ahhhh....it's the hammy, it's the hammy!!

  22. #72
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    This thread is now:

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0FdQVx55_fs" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  23. #73
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brewtality View Post
    You might care if the break is catastrophic in nature and causes you injury
    That happens to all frames. Overdesigned superlight ones in particular.

  25. #75
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    Cool pissing match...
    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/wAzpIhIZaV8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

  26. #76
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    v v v FINALLY THIS THREAD GOT INTERESTING!

    Thanks Chummy

    Edit: Dag nab post time bug, my arrows are now pointing down.

  27. #77
    fresh fish in stock...... SuperModerator
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    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

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  28. #78
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    I pee, therefore, I am(better than you).

    If parts are foreign then I'm fairly certain it has to be labeled "assembled in America" not "made in America". Redwings shoes have to do this even though almost the whole shoe is sourced in the US; with the exception of the metal eyelets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  29. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    ....]

    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Hopefully you're a Maco or Snap-On and not some cheap HF rip-off.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tone's View Post
    Id scrap the passion forum all together, its a breeding ground for unicorn milkers, rainbow chasers and candy cotton farters.

  30. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    If parts are foreign then I'm fairly certain it has to be labeled "assembled in America" not "made in America". Redwings shoes have to do this even though almost the whole shoe is sourced in the US; with the exception of the metal eyelets.
    U.S. Origin Claims:* Enforcement and Compliance Activities Since December 1997

    I tried reading it, and it all seems a bit murky.

    In any case, I do not even know about many components that are manufactured in USA - from tires to brakes etc. So it is all about frame. And even a frame made here - where did the raw components (tubing, fiber etc.) came from?

    Who cares. Track record of a particular make is far more important.

    All my bikes are made in my garage from parts bought all over the world anyway. I wish I could weld frames as well.

  31. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by monzie View Post
    Hopefully you're a Maco or Snap-On and not some cheap HF rip-off.
    Somehow I settled on German brands in tools, most I have are Knipex, Bosch, Stahlwille.. But some recent Bosch power tools I got - 12V Multi-X, rotary hammer, came from Asian origin.

  32. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    I'm gonna neg rep you just out of jealousy. Been seeing quite a few of those photos from out West recently.
    My upper midwest trails should be nice and frozen this time of year, but we've had mud almost the entire winter. Can't ride, can't ski, too muddy to even hike or trail run. Yep, neg rep for sure.
    Warning: may contain sarcasm and/or crap made up in an attempt to feel important.

  33. #83
    R.I.P. Pugsley.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axe View Post
    But some recent Bosch power tools I got - 12V Multi-X, rotary hammer, came from Asian origin.
    Any carbon in there ?

  34. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabies010 View Post
    Any carbon in there ?
    No. No carbon. Just good tools. I like all kind of tools. Hand tools, power tools. Even online tools.

  35. #85
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    Hmmm, seems like a lot of talk about the ebay generic hard tails. Anyone want to go to bat for knock offs with rear suspension? I wouldn't trust one to save a few bucks, you get what you pay for. Plus warranty and proven suspension design. That's worth some money to me.

    Anyway, how would you even rate a product that technically doesn't exist? "I got mine from that website with all the text in a foreign language I can't read."

    I watched a pretty good video on monocoque carbon frame construction and the internal bagging process blah blah blah. Good engineering, design and support provide a superior product at the end of the day. Just like generic honey nut cheerios aren't nearly as good as the name brand, that's how I feel about my bikes anyway.

  36. #86
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    Yes, especially the online tools.
    Always cheap, often ill-fitting & tweaked turn simple threads into a full blown McGyver.
    And no, not those out riding.
    Last edited by Flyin_W; 02-22-2012 at 04:07 PM. Reason: RE: the pissing contest.

  37. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoopwhoop View Post
    I wouldn't trust one to save a few bucks, you get what you pay for. Plus warranty and proven suspension design. That's worth some money to me.
    And they are not much cheaper then some decent aluminum FS frames deals with good shocks. Plenty of very decent options around $1K if you look around.. Like Titus El Guapo from the new owners, or my Rotwild frame, or some KHS deals one can find..

  38. #88
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    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon

  39. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    Are you actually sure about that? I doubt that a bike manufacturer can patent a specific geometry, material choice or production method.

    Yes I'm sure it's stealing... And I'm sure they have patents.

    1) Lets say you have a Trek that you really like and it gets stolen. Rather than buying a new one, you decide to fire up the old welder, bend some tubing and build a bike yourself. Knowing that your old Trek were a great ride you choose to use the same geometry for your home made bike. Does that make you a thief? Do Trek own that particular geometry so that you can't use it too?

    Yes Trek owns the design... Yes you can use it to build your own personal bike. As long as you aren't profiting from it.


    2) Another line of thought. Lets say that you fancy designing a bike from scratch. You bend tubes and weld for years until you finally end up with your perfect bike. By coincidence the geometry happens to be exactly the same as a Santa Cruz model, does that make you a thief? Does Santa Cruz own the rights to that particular geometry?

    Yes... If they have a patent on the frame or type of tubing they own the design. Again... As long as you don't profit from it it's cool.

    3) You're an aspiring bike builder. You buy some bikes and take them apart to look for clever solutions to incorporate in your own bikes. After hacking a bunch of frames to pieces it turns out that Kona does something really clever with the thickness of the tubing, using thicker tubes in some areas of the frame and thinner tube in others. Does learning from that and using similar choices on your bikes make you a thief? Does Kona own the rights to make a thick head tube and a lighter down tube?
    Ah.... Well now that would be blatant stealing! You would be looking to profit in this example...
    Think about it like this....

    Lets say you spent $50,000,000 to design and test a revolutionary new product...
    You file all the patents and send your design to China for production...
    In a month your $2,000 product is being sold on eBay for $50 and nobody buys your product because it's more expensive...

    Would you want to protect that $50,000,000 investment? Or would you just let the Chinese rip you off?

    I imagine you would be the type to sue...
    Quote Originally Posted by William Blake
    Great things are done when men and mountains meet. This is not done by jostling in the street .

  40. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon
    I remember Mike from bikesdirect saying that he preferred to have his better frames to be titanium (and that it did cost him much more to produce then carbon ones). I tend to agree - their titanium frames are very, very well made. I ride my Fly Ti for the third year and it is an excellent hard-tail.

  41. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by roadie scum View Post
    /\ This x eleventy billion. Some people just seem to be able to justify anything as long as it falls in their favor.

    Like manufacturers and 10 speed.

  42. #92
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    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay

  43. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott O View Post
    So am I to understand that Chinese carbon frames can now be had for $300? Where? Looking at 29ers on ebay and the least expensive I'm seeing is a brand called FR211 for $329 + $65 for shipping = $394. And then some guy is selling a cracked Stumpy with the current bid at $406. Wait, what?? 2010 Specialized Carbon 29er Stumpjumper Expert 19" Frame Cracked | eBay



    Calfee can probably fix that for a pretty reasonable fee.

  44. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by 006_007 View Post
    wait till the bikesduhrect comes out with carbon
    Yeah, just like the Motobecane Ti frames that Mountain bike rags
    have tested and said they are a VERY GOOD ride. Damn them for
    offering a solid ride!
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  45. #95
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    Chinese carbon for the fail!

  46. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHUM View Post
    ok...what did i miss?

    i've been out riding avoiding rangers - urgh.

    here's some porn to make all y'all in winterland nutso...68 degrees yesterday - the redwood canopy help keep it a nice cool velcro ride on hero dirt..


    ok..neg rep away for me being an online tool

    Get some gears, hipster!

    77 and hero dirt here, and my i9's are less girly.

    Oneuppered

    ps, please don't chum me!

  47. #97
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    Chum, what bike is that you are riding?
    I like the look.
    Climb into the sky, never wonder why - Tailgunner
    You're a Tailgunner

  48. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blurr View Post
    FYI to carry the Made in the USA Label it only has to be 60 percent made here, Kind of BS labeling IMO.

    Edit: apparently the percentage I read was about motorcycles, it varies per product.
    They wanted to make a rule like that for all the products, but it is really hard to quantify - how do you count materials and added value. So it is still that vague "all or virtually all" standard. No idea how it is enforced.

    Personally, I do pay some attention to the country of origin. I consider Germany, USA and Japan to be tier 1, Most of the rest of Europe and Taiwan as tier 2, rest as 3. No real reason. I certainly would not buy American made just because it is American made...

  49. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZ.MTNS View Post
    Again, did they file for a patent? Simply copying someone else's designs does in fact equate to theft. You can can call it what you want to but theft of intellectual property is in fact theft. You may choose to argue the letter of the law, but at the very core of it theft is theft and wrong is wrong. The fact that so many people seem to condone this is why we as a whole are winning the race to the bottom, settling for the lowest common denominator.
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?

  50. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandrenseren View Post
    ..and calling it theft because something looks kinda similar is real brainy?
    Indeed. Intellectual property - copyrights, patents, trade secrets, trademarks - all have some pretty strict definitions and limitations. Also, there is such thing as common sense - that makes some of the patents (or trademark claims, like Specialized's "Epic" fiasco) to be very hard to respect.

    I definitely could not care less when buying a German frame directly - possibly infringing on Specialized's FSR patent in US.

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