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  1. #1
    willtsmith_nwi
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    Ambiguity on gun issues

    Sorry don't like to let people taking parting shots before threads are locked. To all those who debated me, I would like you all to know that I am not advocating either side, rather I am pointing out that the statistics don't seem to have clear cut correlations but that they do contradict the positions of folks who seem very sure of themselves.

    One more parting comparison as Dallas was directly compared to Chicago regarding crime.

    Dallas:
    http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime....allas&state=TX

    Chicago:
    http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime....icago&state=IL

    Between the two we see roughly comparable rates of crime above the national average. On the property crime front Chicago roughly parallels the national average while dallas is way above. If we are so convinced that gun saturation dissuades forced burglaries you would expect Dallas to have much lower numbers. But the numbers don't bear this out.

    It is a tale of two cities but it was a big point with the poster. My point is that there is a lot more to consider and the simple principle of citizens with concealed handguns doesn't seem to bear out any actual results. Conversely, handgun bans seem to be a reaction to gun violence and not the other way around.

    My personal opinion is that the gun genie is out of the bottle and there is no way to put it back in. There are many reason that many people can and should be carrying personal protection. My concern is those who are vigilante minded have far more potential to cause harm then good. Please feel free to openly display your gun holstered ... so I can make the choice to walk away from you. Nobody nominated you to be my protector.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    Welfare utilization is the higher in Texas than in Illinois.

    http://www.statemaster.com/graph/eco...ies-per-capita

    Texas also has a higher per capita gun death rate, as do the states with the least restrictive gun laws.

    http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri...te-per-100-000


    Big entrenched bureaucracies where there is little political turnover tend to be corrupt regardless of the political party. Cook county has a lot of "friends and relatives" of party and government officials being paid to do jobs that they are not doing. Point me to any Republican dominated area and I will show you slews of sweetheart, bloated contracts for "friends and relatives". We need a little churn to clean things up. Both in government and in political party administration.

    The thing I was apparently wrong about in my last post was police support for gun control. It seems that admin generally favors stricter gun control, while street cops generally support it. I'm not citing anything because in my webscan very few pages make any attempt to make proper citations on this politically charged issue. Take that as you will. Some will say that admin are politically controlled, others may cite that admin has to clean up the mess when trained and disciplined officers go haywire and worry what will happen when guns start blazing with persons not under similar circumstances.

    Please everyone just be respectful of each other and do remember that near bottom of pretty much every "bad thing" chart you can find is Massachusetts ("Taxachussetts" as I can recall) and Vermont, that is except the "liberalness" chart where they are near the top. So please temper your opinion to being rational and don't be a Rush/Anne/Bill/Glen/Michael/Sean O'Reilly/Beck/Savage/Limbaugh/Hannity/Coulter about things.
    Quote Originally Posted by crashedandburned
    Quote Originally Posted by willtsmith_nwi
    Texas also has a higher per capita gun death rate, as do the states with the least restrictive gun laws.
    Maryland has some of the most restrictive laws on the east coast and still has a HIGHER rate of gun deaths than Texas.

    California, which has some of most restrictive guns laws on the west coast, is not really far behind Texas.

    According to your own link there, DC has the highest firearms death rate by a wide margin despite despite an almost complete lockdown on guns in the city.

    Now, in order to put this into further perspective, we need to know what defines a firearm death in this case. Crime on crime? Police shootings? Hunting accidents? Self defense? Criminal activity? Doesn't break it down. So to say that there are X number of deaths due to firearms paints a very inaccurate picture as to the real purpose of using the numbers in your argument.

  3. #3
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    Sorry that this has to be my first post (BTW I just bought a 2011 Gary Fisher HIFI Pro and am STOKED to take it out!), but I'd like to point out a few things.

    While historically I've been more aligned to the left than the right, I don't reserve any loyalty to either side as both tend to make asses of themselves on a routine basis.

    That being said, I recently bought a SIG P229 9mm a few weeks ago and have applied for a concealed carry permit. Why?

    1) Criminals do NOT care about the law.
    - It is against the law to rob someone (but they still do it)
    - It is against the law to rape someone (but they still do it)
    - It is against the law to kidnap someone (but they still do it)
    - It is against the law to kill someone while trying to do any of the unlawful things
    mentioned above (BUT THEY STILL DO IT)

    2) Law enforcement is a deterrent (fail) and initial responder (too late)

    I am not paranoid. I understand that the probability of being in a life threatening situation is relatively low. That doesn't mean, however, that I WON'T ever be in a situation that will justify the use of deadly force. I have been driving 20+ years with probably half a million miles and have never been in an accident so severe that a seat belt saved my life, yet I still wear it every time I get into a car. I work in an industrial environment and never had anything fall on my head. I've never even met anyone who's had something fall on their head, yet I wear a hardhat EVERY SINGLE TIME I'm in a hard hat zone.

    Riding solo in the middle of the woods has a very real possibility for the following scenarios:

    1) You're in the wild, therefore you will probably run into a wild animal.
    2) Crazy people run off to the woods, therefore you will probably run into a crazy person.

    I am just kidding about the crazy person, but hey you never know.

    I think it's also important for people who carry understand one very important thing. Just because you have a weapon, does NOT mean you understand how to properly deploy said weapon or fully realize the consequence for using it. Even if you DO live, the legal and financial burden may make you wish you hadn't.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by momorama
    Riding solo in the middle of the woods has a very real possibility for the following scenarios:

    1) You're in the wild, therefore you will probably run into a wild animal.
    2) Crazy people run off to the woods, therefore you will probably run into a crazy person.

    .
    So glad I live where neither of these possibilities has the remotest chance of happening...

  5. #5
    saddlemeat
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    A weapon is a tool for dealing with situations, and you have to ask yourself if you want to leave yourself that option or another option. I personally want no part of deadly solutions to problems, so instead I conduct myself as though violence is not one of my options. Unless you use your weapon everyday it will not be second nature and may not be as useful as you think. I have shot people and been shot at and believe me your brain is your best weapon and removing yourself from the situation as quickly as possible is your best defense. Recognizing the situation/setup and evading contact wins every time in my book. I will go so far as to execute a quick about face and depart if confronted. I worked in a pre release state pen program a couple years and frankly I would not do anything that could land me there. You are on a slippery slope in that regard walking around with a deadly weapon as one of your options, IMO.
    A Useful Bear is a handy thing.

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