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  1. #1
    fsp
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    NK gives us ultimatum.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...8&refer=canada

    "If the U.S. increases pressure upon the DPRK, persistently doing harm to it, it will continue to take physical countermeasures, considering it as a declaration of a war...
    ...The issue of future nuclear tests is linked to U.S. policy toward our country... If the United States continues to take a hostile attitude and apply pressure on us in various forms, we will have no choice but to take physical steps to deal with that."

    Sweet. Good thing we have a president who is such a fine diplomat, especially in difficult, delicate situations like this.

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    Bush is owned by Kim jong-il.

    Quote Originally Posted by fsp
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...8&refer=canada

    "If the U.S. increases pressure upon the DPRK, persistently doing harm to it, it will continue to take physical countermeasures, considering it as a declaration of a war...
    ...The issue of future nuclear tests is linked to U.S. policy toward our country... If the United States continues to take a hostile attitude and apply pressure on us in various forms, we will have no choice but to take physical steps to deal with that."

    Sweet. Good thing we have a president who is such a fine diplomat, especially in difficult, delicate situations like this.

    The ill-considered Axis of Evil "campaign" speech backfired big-time---followed by the Iraq debacle and weakening of the nation. Now, only formal security guarantees and other concessions will work. Or might work. Then, Iran will be watching to see how to get what it wants, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fsp
    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...8&refer=canada

    "If the U.S. increases pressure upon the DPRK, persistently doing harm to it, it will continue to take physical countermeasures, considering it as a declaration of a war...
    ...The issue of future nuclear tests is linked to U.S. policy toward our country... If the United States continues to take a hostile attitude and apply pressure on us in various forms, we will have no choice but to take physical steps to deal with that."

    Sweet. Good thing we have a president who is such a fine diplomat, especially in difficult, delicate situations like this.
    Hmmm...what do they say about those who forget the lessons of history...

    http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2129.html

    In 1940, Japan occupied French Indochina (Vietnam) upon agreement with the French Vichy government, and joined the Axis powers Germany and Italy. These actions intensified Japan's conflict with the United States and Great Britain which reacted with an oil boycott. The resulting oil shortage and failures to solve the conflict diplomatically made Japan decide to capture the oil rich Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and to start a war with the US and Great Britain.

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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    Hmmm...what do they say about those who forget the lessons of history...

    http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2129.html

    In 1940, Japan occupied French Indochina (Vietnam) upon agreement with the French Vichy government, and joined the Axis powers Germany and Italy. These actions intensified Japan's conflict with the United States and Great Britain which reacted with an oil boycott. The resulting oil shortage and failures to solve the conflict diplomatically made Japan decide to capture the oil rich Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and to start a war with the US and Great Britain.
    Which didn't go all that well for japan.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fsp
    Sweet. Good thing we have a president who is such a fine diplomat, especially in difficult, delicate situations like this.
    Yeah, we should put Clinton back in charge and send Jimmy Carter over. This time he can give them some Minuteman III's so they have a delivery system for the nukes they gave them in their last diplomatic effort.
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    Dprk

    DPRK and the Anti-Bush posters on this board donít get it. Love or hate the Bush administration they are doing the right thing by not allowing this to be a DPRK / US issue. Again look at the other countries and the UN involvement.

    DPRK is trying to pick a fight with the biggest stick on the block.

  7. #7
    fsp
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbmojo
    Yeah, we should put Clinton back in charge and send Jimmy Carter over. This time he can give them some Minuteman III's so they have a delivery system for the nukes they gave them in their last diplomatic effort.
    Hm. Well, wounds like you've got it all figured out then.

    I'm putting money on neither of us backing down, and there being some kind of attempt on NKs part to start some serious ****... which will probably fail. Then, who knows.

  8. #8
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    You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Clinton tried to stem NK's nuclear bomb development with incentives. He didn't give them "nukes". He told them they'd get light water reactors in exchange for shutting down the graphite one. This would have stemmed their ability to process the reactor byproducts to weapons grade. If you want to blame someone for giving the NK nukes.... Its China, Russia, and Pakistan. Pakistan is the one that gave them the centrifuges and blueprints.

    Yes, Clintons policy was less than perfect... but what has Bush done with his last 6 years regarding NK? Nothing! Well that's not true. Bush has pushed NK into their latest brash moves. And Bush's response will be to push them further.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    Hmmm...what do they say about those who forget the lessons of history...

    http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e2129.html

    In 1940, Japan occupied French Indochina (Vietnam) upon agreement with the French Vichy government, and joined the Axis powers Germany and Italy. These actions intensified Japan's conflict with the United States and Great Britain which reacted with an oil boycott. The resulting oil shortage and failures to solve the conflict diplomatically made Japan decide to capture the oil rich Dutch East Indies (Indonesia) and to start a war with the US and Great Britain.
    I'm sorry, you are trying to tell me what here? that Japan started the war by occupying Indochina?
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Clinton tried to stem NK's nuclear bomb development with incentives. He didn't give them "nukes". He told them they'd get light water reactors in exchange for shutting down the graphite one. This would have stemmed their ability to process the reactor byproducts to weapons grade. If you want to blame someone for giving the NK nukes.... Its China, Russia, and Pakistan. Pakistan is the one that gave them the centrifuges and blueprints.

    Yes, Clintons policy was less than perfect... but what has Bush done with his last 6 years regarding NK? Nothing! Well that's not true. Bush has pushed NK into their latest brash moves. And Bush's response will be to push them further.

    Next!



    You know what the hell you are talking about, and the more you talk, the more pathetic you sound.

    Let's see, if you have kids, and they misbehave, you 'reward' their bad behavior? With incentives? The funny thing is, the incentives are just as bad as the behavior!

    Your a true joke. If people like you were around 80 yrs ago, we'd all be speaking German or Japanese.

    The sad thing is, there are more people like you around today than ever before - you are the first to blame America for everything, the first to appease those who want to do us harm, and the last to anything that would actually protect us in the long run.

    Sir, you may have your nuclear war because of your appeasement and Bill Clintons horrific mistake with his 'incentives'.
    "If an illegal alien is an undocumented immigrant, than a drug dealer is an unlicensed pharmicist."

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    I'm sorry, you are trying to tell me what here? that Japan started the war by occupying Indochina?
    that when economic sanctions that threaten a country's economy and way of life are imposed by a group of larger nations, it will do anything to ensure it's survival.

    Japan was driven to occupy Indochina and bomb Pearl Harbour because of the sanctions that cut off it's oil...

    ...what do you think NK will do if faced with the same situation?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sandan
    Which didn't go all that well for japan.
    it did for a while...problem was it didn't have "the bomb"

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    does North Korea pay attention to the news much? did they not see what we did to Iraq over mere suspicions of having nukes?

    They're asking for a beating like the one Shamrock took lastnight.
    "What would happen to the Weather Channel's ratings if people werent scared anymore?"

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    that when economic sanctions that threaten a country's economy and way of life are imposed by a group of larger nations, it will do anything to ensure it's survival.

    Japan was driven to occupy Indochina and bomb Pearl Harbour because of the sanctions that cut off it's oil...

    ...what do you think NK will do if faced with the same situation?
    I'm going to say that you made a typo and meant Indonesia. Because the sanctions were because they invaded Indochina. In any case, Japan was in an expansionist mode, anexionating (is that even a word? or am I a moran?) territories left and right. To say that they were forced into bombing Pearl Harbour is like saying that the Germans were forced into invading France and attacking the UK because they wouldn't recognize the anexion of Poland.

    The North Korea situation is different, they are actually using the threat of nukes to try to get stuff -which they would get anyways so they wouldn't do the nuke, wait...- the main problem with them is: Kim Jong Il is nuts. Dr. Evil crazy, ever hear about his plot to inundate the market with fake US currency? That dude makes Saddam look sane.
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  15. #15
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    Try again with substance this time

    Quote Originally Posted by bullit71
    You know what the hell you are talking about, and the more you talk, the more pathetic you sound.

    Let's see, if you have kids, and they misbehave, you 'reward' their bad behavior? With incentives? The funny thing is, the incentives are just as bad as the behavior!

    Your a true joke. If people like you were around 80 yrs ago, we'd all be speaking German or Japanese.

    The sad thing is, there are more people like you around today than ever before - you are the first to blame America for everything, the first to appease those who want to do us harm, and the last to anything that would actually protect us in the long run.

    Sir, you may have your nuclear war because of your appeasement and Bill Clintons horrific mistake with his 'incentives'.
    Clinton was willing to give light water reactors -that don't allow for the production of nuclear bombs if NK was to take their graphite reactors offline -these are the kind that do allow for the production of nuclear weapons. Bush stopped shipment on these light water reactors leaving NK with only reactors that facilitate making nuclear weapons.

    So how did Clinton make a "horrific" mistake?

    Now in 2003 Bush claimed he would not tolerate a nuclear armed NK... but what did he do? He ensured that they kept their nuclear bomb facilitating reactors.

    And don't be a bonehead saying I blame America just because I take issue with Bush's policies. You have to be an idiot to not be able to tease these two concepts apart. You'd have to be completely brainwashed to think Bush IS America. You'd have to be... like yourself.

    And that "If people like you were around 80 yrs ago, we'd all be speaking German or Japanese" is complete weaksauce. You might get a pat on the back from a toothless wasted fool at your local tavern, but most with an IQ above 5 would look at you with pity.




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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenK
    I'm going to say that you made a typo and meant Indonesia. Because the sanctions were because they invaded Indochina. In any case, Japan was in an expansionist mode, anexionating (is that even a word? or am I a moran?) territories left and right. To say that they were forced into bombing Pearl Harbour is like saying that the Germans were forced into invading France and attacking the UK because they wouldn't recognize the anexion of Poland.

    The North Korea situation is different, they are actually using the threat of nukes to try to get stuff -which they would get anyways so they wouldn't do the nuke, wait...- the main problem with them is: Kim Jong Il is nuts. Dr. Evil crazy, ever hear about his plot to inundate the market with fake US currency? That dude makes Saddam look sane.
    Good catch.

    Very true, Japan needed the liebensraum as they too were on an imperialistic path...because of the sanctions, they were facing not only economic ruin but an end to their way of life...all because the US wanted to impose its policies on them...just a continuation of the Perry's gunboat diplomacy. They had nothing to lose by attacking the U.S....either way, they were doomed.

    If Japan had nukes in 1940, they would have used them.

    I'm not so sure that Jong is nuts...his father saw what the bomb did for China and he is just finishing what was started many years ago

  17. #17
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    4 million people died in the last Korean war (including 36,000 American).

    Now the place is a bizillion time more militarized and chances are many more would die the second time around.

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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeeZee
    Love or hate the Bush administration they are doing the right thing by not allowing this to be a DPRK / US issue.
    DPRK's an ongoing problem, that's for sure.

    I fault Bush two ways: I think his Axis of Evil speech was intemperate and unwise, calculated to rally his base; the consequences included putting Iran and DPRK on notice that they had better go nuclear or else. And I think (know, actually) Iraq has weakened our ability to respond to true crises such as this.

    Ever since 2000, he's been the wrong man at the wrong time (my opinion).

    Fact of life, though: Not so much we can do about Korea without Russia and China on board. The U.S. and Bush can't do it alone--we agree.

  19. #19
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    NK want bilateral talks for two reasons. It makes them a bigger player when dealing with their major lifeline China. And renegging on a deal with the US is easier than renegging on a deal with all their neighbors.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    NK want bilateral talks for two reasons. It makes them a bigger player when dealing with their major lifeline China. And renegging on a deal with the US is easier than renegging on a deal with all their neighbors.
    Could also be because they know that the US is driving the policy and that the other countries are relatively powerless without American support, very similar to Israel's situation.

    With China as an ally, why do they need Japan, South Korea, etc. at the table? As with any negotiation, the fewer participants, the easier the resolution...especially with each player having their own axe to grind.

    If they have bilateral talks, NK knows that the US will sell out the countries if they find it necessary to do so

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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    that when economic sanctions that threaten a country's economy and way of life are imposed by a group of larger nations, it will do anything to ensure it's survival.

    Japan was driven to occupy Indochina and bomb Pearl Harbour because of the sanctions that cut off it's oil...

    ...what do you think NK will do if faced with the same situation?
    So how would you reward a country that is violently aggresive, thumbs its nose at the international community and just does as it wants, damn the torpedos? Not sanctions, that would make things worse. Just let them continue, becaues repercussions might be worse?
    Of course, japan wasn't looking to colonize all of Asia, or expand it's empire. Nah, it was just p.o.ed over sanctions. How simplistic and juvenile your argument is.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    NK want bilateral talks for two reasons. It makes them a bigger player when dealing with their major lifeline China. And renegging on a deal with the US is easier than renegging on a deal with all their neighbors.

    I think mostly Kim Jong-il wants himself and his family and wealthy friends to survive and hold power.

    I think an explicit bilateral security deal(s) with the U.S. is the only way to stop proliferation. Would that be such a bad thing? Get breathing space and sooner or later (sooner, these days), the people of NK will turn the Kims out.

    I think the need for China and Russia to cooperate applies only to effective sanctions.

    I think the Bush admin and its neocon policymakers will not be willing to reduce the danger to the U.S. by signing security agreements--for political/ideology reasons. I think in the end DPRK will be admitted to the nuclear club because Bush will not go against his political history. This will be another very sad legacy of George W. Bush.

  23. #23
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by JM01
    it did for a while...problem was it didn't have "the bomb"
    The "while", was while the US rebuilt a large part of our navy, which japan destroyed, with... you remember Pearl Harbor, while it's ambassadors were negotiating. The bomb just ended things sooner.
    Remember what Yamamoto said: [SIZE=-1]"I'm afraid we have awakened a sleeping giant and filled it with terrible resolve,"

    [/SIZE]
    So even w/o the bomb japan made a huige mistake, seems like the nks are following the same path. Unfortunately there are too many Americans who have refused to wake up.[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by sandan
    Of course, japan wasn't looking to colonize all of Asia, or expand it's empire. Nah, it was just p.o.ed over sanctions. How simplistic and juvenile your argument is.

    The U.S. embargo cut off all oil to Japan. It wasn't "p.o.'d"--the regime wanted to survive. As JM says, Japan might as well have attacked us--it was the better choice.

  25. #25
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    Pavlovian conditioning doesn't work

    Quote Originally Posted by sandan
    So how would you reward a country that is violently aggresive, thumbs its nose at the international community and just does as it wants, damn the torpedos? Not sanctions, that would make things worse. Just let them continue, becaues repercussions might be worse?
    Of course, japan wasn't looking to colonize all of Asia, or expand it's empire. Nah, it was just p.o.ed over sanctions. How simplistic and juvenile your argument is.
    Pavlovian conditioning doesn't work with NK. We've tried it before and it has failed. Its very naive to think it will all of suddenly work now.

    Sanctions have basically starved the people but the government has not yeilded. More sactions just means that more people will starve to death but we'll be right where we were with a nuclear NK.

    Getting them to six party talks seems like the best thing to do in my humble estimate.
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