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  1. #1
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    Hey Dj - did you catch "300" yet?

    Just wondering ... I've been ruminating on why I wasn't entirely satisfied over the last couple days, and I think the answer is ultimately because it wasn't Frank Miller enough for me. And I know you know the comic better than I - I tried to get ahold of a copy and re-read it at Christmas with the film coming out, but didn't.

    So I am calling upon your admirable reading expertise, as I can't recall enough of the comic to differentiate (or not) it from the aspects of the film I didn't like.

    I mean, it's a story that really is tailor-made for Frank ... hard-boiled dudes being just that. And that's pretty much it. I felt like the movie tried to do more and move away from that strict character study; it tried to manufacture additional tensions and plotlines that were just never entirely believable or got me to invest with, instead of sticking with the hard-boiledness of the story.

    But I wonder how much I am mixing up the movie, the comic, and the history (or perhaps more accurately, tradition) of the event itself.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    Just wondering ... I've been ruminating on why I wasn't entirely satisfied over the last couple days, and I think the answer is ultimately because it wasn't Frank Miller enough for me. And I know you know the comic better than I - I tried to get ahold of a copy and re-read it at Christmas with the film coming out, but didn't.

    So I am calling upon your admirable reading expertise, as I can't recall enough of the comic to differentiate (or not) it from the aspects of the film I didn't like.

    I mean, it's a story that really is tailor-made for Frank ... hard-boiled dudes being just that. And that's pretty much it. I felt like the movie tried to do more and move away from that strict character study; it tried to manufacture additional tensions and plotlines that were just never entirely believable or got me to invest with, instead of sticking with the hard-boiledness of the story.

    But I wonder how much I am mixing up the movie, the comic, and the history (or perhaps more accurately, tradition) of the event itself.
    It's funny I watched some Discovery Channel piece on the battle the other day and right off the bat they had to confess that there were actually 1,000 Athenians and 300 Spartans there. That kind of ruins the whole thing right off the bat and whenever I get around to watching the movie that's gonna be a problem for me.

    I mean even the damn title of the movie is inaccurate, and not by just a little (1,300 vs. 300). I would have preferred to see the movie first and learn the historical details later.

    Oh well.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    Just wondering ... I've been ruminating on why I wasn't entirely satisfied over the last couple days, and I think the answer is ultimately because it wasn't Frank Miller enough for me. And I know you know the comic better than I - I tried to get ahold of a copy and re-read it at Christmas with the film coming out, but didn't.

    So I am calling upon your admirable reading expertise, as I can't recall enough of the comic to differentiate (or not) it from the aspects of the film I didn't like.

    I mean, it's a story that really is tailor-made for Frank ... hard-boiled dudes being just that. And that's pretty much it. I felt like the movie tried to do more and move away from that strict character study; it tried to manufacture additional tensions and plotlines that were just never entirely believable or got me to invest with, instead of sticking with the hard-boiledness of the story.

    But I wonder how much I am mixing up the movie, the comic, and the history (or perhaps more accurately, tradition) of the event itself.
    I haven't seen it yet. My wife, being 8 months preggo, has little room left in her bladder, and has to get up to go to the bathroom a lot. That means she doesn't want to sit in a super-crowded theater. This week is looking pretty busy, as we have different junk to do every night. This weekend will likely be it for me.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmaki
    It's funny I watched some Discovery Channel piece on the battle the other day and right off the bat they had to confess that there were actually 1,000 Athenians and 300 Spartans there. That kind of ruins the whole thing right off the bat and whenever I get around to watching the movie that's gonna be a problem for me.

    I mean even the damn title of the movie is inaccurate, and not by just a little (1,300 vs. 300). I would have preferred to see the movie first and learn the historical details later.

    Oh well.
    Actually, that's covered in the book pretty extensively. A lot fled, and the Athenians weren't full-on warriors like the Spartans were.

    Of course, the movie is the conversion of a comic that is a tale of a story that is part myth. That's basically 4 times removed from the events, and good to keep in mind if you're trying to take it too seriously. Frank Miller's reality is different from most people's.

  5. #5
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    I saw the movie Satuday damn good movie I read some comics well just one really, I've lost intrest in the rest of them. Frank Miller is a very good writer I'll give you that.

    As far has the story goes that I'm aware of it happaned pertty much just like that.


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  6. #6
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    I might see it on iMax. The only thing is I'd have to see it solo.

    Wife cares not for this flick, nor do my friends.

    I might have to suck it up and do this..
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    I might see it on iMax. The only thing is I'd have to see it solo.

    Wife cares not for this flick, nor do my friends.

    I might have to suck it up and do this..

    If we had an Imax in town, i'd do it. I don't want to see it enough to drive down to Seattle for the flick, though.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcrb9
    Actually, that's covered in the book pretty extensively. A lot fled, and the Athenians weren't full-on warriors like the Spartans were.

    Of course, the movie is the conversion of a comic that is a tale of a story that is part myth. That's basically 4 times removed from the events, and good to keep in mind if you're trying to take it too seriously. Frank Miller's reality is different from most people's.
    Oh they were thespians, not Athenians whoops. Not sure if that is a significant difference.

    And I do understand your point about it being mythologized somewhat, however since it is an actual historical event that at least some is known about it gets a bit problematic in my mind.

    For instance the Thespians fleeing. How could they have fled? they were completely surrounded. And if they were not the same kind of hard core fighters as the Spartans, doesn't that make their stand even more noteworthy than the Spartans in some ways?

    Why lie and make them cowards by inventing the idea of them fleeing when in truth they must have been incredibly brave?

    Anyway, like I said I would have preferred to see it before learning about it so I would not have all these "facts" clouding my enjoyment of the movie. that being said it's not likely I'll be watching it anytime soon anyway.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmaki
    It's funny I watched some Discovery Channel piece on the battle the other day and right off the bat they had to confess that there were actually 1,000 Athenians and 300 Spartans there. That kind of ruins the whole thing right off the bat and whenever I get around to watching the movie that's gonna be a problem for me.
    They do address that somewhat in the film, and even in a way that I found satisfactory regarding some of the 'historical' accounts I had previously read. I didn't see the Discovery Channel piece.

    I was disappointed because, from a literary standpoint, there are two classic "lines" that are associated with this event. And my concern tends not to be so much with the historical accuracy as it is capturing the 'feel' of the story ... ditto for The Iliad and Troy, for instance. Historical accuracy? Meh. But does it capture the essence of the event, as the accounts we have inherited pass down? That's the ticket.

    One is the comment (that is in the trailers) about the Persian arrows plotting out the sun and the response of: "Then we will fight in the shade." And the other line - which they leave out, to my disappointment - is even more macho and hardcore. And I think it entirely affects the 'feel' of the story ... which, considering that the film moves away from that feeling, I'm not surprised they left out.

    Frank Miller has one trick; and if you like that trick, he does it well. And this story should have totally fit with that one-note character study in machismo. I just can't entirely remember if its the result of the movie trying to do more than the comic, or did Frank himself try to fill out his storytelling? I'll need to find myself a copy of the comic I guess ...

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcrb9
    Frank Miller's reality is different from most people's.
    Yeah, I guess I just feel that Frank Miller's reality should have been perfect for telling this story ... again, for me it's not the historical accuracy so much as the essence of the account. And I felt like the movie fell short.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmaki
    Oh they were thespians, not Athenians whoops. Not sure if that is a significant difference.

    And I do understand your point about it being mythologized somewhat, however since it is an actual historical event that at least some is known about it gets a bit problematic in my mind.

    For instance the Thespians fleeing. How could they have fled? they were completely surrounded. And if they were not the same kind of hard core fighters as the Spartans, doesn't that make their stand even more noteworthy than the Spartans in some ways?

    Why lie and make them cowards by inventing the idea of them fleeing when in truth they must have been incredibly brave?

    Anyway, like I said I would have preferred to see it before learning about it so I would not have all these "facts" clouding my enjoyment of the movie. that being said it's not likely I'll be watching it anytime soon anyway.
    I know what you mean about mythologizing (is that even a word??) a historical event, but with Frank Miller, that's what yer gonna get.
    And yeah, they fled. And yeah, they were surrounded. Whoops.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Locoman
    I might see it on iMax. The only thing is I'd have to see it solo.

    Wife cares not for this flick, nor do my friends.

    I might have to suck it up and do this..
    I actually love doing movies by myself. I cannot eat at a restaurant by myself, but a movie? Oh yeah.

  13. #13
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    *koff* - homoerotic chest-thumping - *koff, koff*

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcrb9
    I know what you mean about mythologizing (is that even a word??) a historical event, but with Frank Miller, that's what yer gonna get.
    And yeah, they fled. And yeah, they were surrounded. Whoops.
    Well of course the Thespians fled! They were just a bunch of play actors anyway

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    They do address that somewhat in the film, and even in a way that I found satisfactory regarding some of the 'historical' accounts I had previously read. I didn't see the Discovery Channel piece.

    I was disappointed because, from a literary standpoint, there are two classic "lines" that are associated with this event. And my concern tends not to be so much with the historical accuracy as it is capturing the 'feel' of the story ... ditto for The Iliad and Troy, for instance. Historical accuracy? Meh. But does it capture the essence of the event, as the accounts we have inherited pass down? That's the ticket.

    One is the comment (that is in the trailers) about the Persian arrows plotting out the sun and the response of: "Then we will fight in the shade." And the other line - which they leave out, to my disappointment - is even more macho and hardcore. And I think it entirely affects the 'feel' of the story ... which, considering that the film moves away from that feeling, I'm not surprised they left out.

    Frank Miller has one trick; and if you like that trick, he does it well. And this story should have totally fit with that one-note character study in machismo. I just can't entirely remember if its the result of the movie trying to do more than the comic, or did Frank himself try to fill out his storytelling? I'll need to find myself a copy of the comic I guess ...

    FM's macho lines are the best -- and the cheesiest. I noticed a few lines in Sin City that were groan-worthy, but any time you translate a comic ver batim into a movie, certain things don't go through the conversion as well. It's all part of the deal, but can still be fun.

    Now there's real talk of making the Watchmen into a movie. If you haven't read it, that's one of three absolute high water marks (along with Maus and Sandman) in comics. It's a dissection of superheroes and the superhero genre. If they get it right, it could be one of the coolest movies. But there's just oh, so much they can get wrong.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmaki
    Well of course the Thespians fled! They were just a bunch of play actors anyway
    As a pure point of interest, we don't get the word Thespians from them, but rather Thespos, the "first actor" or some such thing. And Thespos was not a Thespian, if you follow.

    Ah, ancient history was a good class for something at least.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    I actually love doing movies by myself. I cannot eat at a restaurant by myself, but a movie? Oh yeah.

    Concerts i can and do solo a lot. Movies? Never have. Dunno why... just never have.

  18. #18
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    There are some movies I go to alone just because I know my wife won't like them like Bond movies , She'll like the new one which come out tomorrow! But I know when I'll be seeing said movie alone....
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcrb9
    FM's macho lines are the best -- and the cheesiest. I noticed a few lines in Sin City that were groan-worthy, but any time you translate a comic ver batim into a movie, certain things don't go through the conversion as well. It's all part of the deal, but can still be fun.
    Yeah, I'm not objecting to the cheese ... I'm saying it wasn't cheesy enough. I loved the moments in Sin City where we could cackle at the badness (as I also do with his comics); and I loved them as much in 300 - and there are some amazingly cheese-tastic moments ... I just felt like it could have and should have been even more over the top in that direction.

    Instead of playing for 'epic formula,' like they did.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcrb9
    Now there's real talk of making the Watchmen into a movie. If you haven't read it, that's one of three absolute high water marks (along with Maus and Sandman) in comics. It's a dissection of superheroes and the superhero genre. If they get it right, it could be one of the coolest movies. But there's just oh, so much they can get wrong.
    And it's the same director who did 300 ... I'm afraid there is going to be oh so much that they get wrong. But I could be mistaken. His Dawn of the Dead remake did the dystopia thing okay.

    I sure do hope I'm mistaken.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    And it's the same director who did 300 ... I'm afraid there is going to be oh so much that they get wrong. But I could be mistaken. His Dawn of the Dead remake did the dystopia thing okay.

    I sure do hope I'm mistaken.

    So you have read Watchmen! Good, good.

    Yeah, i'm worried. From interviews, he's said he wants to set it in the 80's, like the book, so that's a good start. There was also one other comment about the overall feel he made that i really liked, but i forget what it was now.
    I still have my doubts that they could pull it off.

    And if anyone tries to make a Sandman movie? I will be one unhappy camper.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    I actually love doing movies by myself. I cannot eat at a restaurant by myself, but a movie? Oh yeah.
    Interesting. I'm the opposite.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by djcrb9
    So you have read Watchmen! Good, good.
    One of the few I actually own; Dark Knight, Watchmen, Maus I and II, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Of those, only Watchmen I bought for myself ... Maus was for a class, though I would have bought them regardless.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drewdane
    Interesting. I'm the opposite.
    I may finally put that to the ultimate test today; I have been dying for some Chinese food for weeks now, and cost-wise a buffet is really the way to go. And no one will go with me.



    Deep breaths ... ah, who the fock am I kidding. I just can't do it. I'll get some takeout.



    You are, of course, absolutely right about the homoeroticism angle. Which I love, considering that the more macho the dudes, the less likely they usually are to be 'okay' with that. Irony! I love it!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by kept man
    One of the few I actually own; Dark Knight, Watchmen, Maus I and II, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Of those, only Watchmen I bought for myself ... Maus was for a class, though I would have bought them regardless.

    Check out Sandman. The investment is high, since it's ten volumes, but it's one of the best pieces of fiction in any media i've ever read.

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