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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I will say it again.

    If the wheels, saddle, bars and BB were in the same places and the 2 bikes were otherwise identical, except for the SA, then they would handle exactly the same.
    I think SA can have an effect on balance, reach & how the geometry of the bike is designed. For example, in an XL (my size) the M6 and the Bronson have similar "effective TT" numbers, but the reach on the Pivot is almost a full inch shorter (reach being horizontal distance from BB center to top HT center). This means that the "effective TT" is essentially moved back relative to the wheelbase on the M6. So if you set those two bike up with the same posts and stems, you'd have similar saddle-bar distances, but on the Pivot you'd have more weight over the rear wheel; the slacker SA of the M6 essentially pulls the effective TT back toward the rear of the bike. Of course you could normalize this: shift your saddle forward and put a longer stem on the Pivot. But that would change the ride a bit.

    (A caveat: some of the shorter reach on the M6 is actually due to the 1" taller HT. Since reach is measured to top of HT center, and HT is obviously angled, the taller it is the closer the top is to the BB.)

  2. #52
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    Are the decals under some clearcoat or can you remove them?
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  3. #53
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    Decals can't be removed. They are not stickers, they're thin and (I think) painted on so you couldn't peel them off in one piece. Same as the S.C. Bronson, Ibis Mojo and other "matte" finished bikes. After looking at all 3 colors in the flesh today I'll be going with a Stealth Carbon.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    Decals can't be removed. They are not stickers, they're thin and (I think) painted on so you couldn't peel them off in one piece. Same as the S.C. Bronson, Ibis Mojo and other "matte" finished bikes. After looking at all 3 colors in the flesh today I'll be going with a Stealth Carbon.
    Thanks for the confirmation. I don't need to be reminded 5 times what brand bike I am riding. Luckily quality custom vinyl decals are easy to get locally and can camouflage any unwanted branding without looking bad.

    I can see the appeal of the stealth bike though....if I didn't live in the forest that scheme would be tempting.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  5. #55
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    Doesn't sound like any of us know exactly how the STA works, including myself and especially others (lol). Interesting subject.

  6. #56
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    So I got to spend 2+ hours demoing a Mach 6 today. There are lots of full reviews elsewhere, so here are just a few random thoughts:

    1) At just a shade under 6'3", I definitely want an XL. I was riding a Large and it felt noticeably cramped. 125mm dropper was at insert limit.

    2) DW and Fox Float X are a pretty sweet combo. Noticeably more progressive and composed suspension than the Bronson (my last bike.) Great on small bumps but ramps up quickly in the midstroke, where the Bronson had a more plush (but sometimes wallowy) feel. Landing drops I never felt remotely like I was close to bottoming it out, but rebound dampening settings were important; too much and it was harsh on small bumps, too little and it got unpleasantly springy landing bigger drops. Great lively feel when hitting features and jumps, where the Bronson sometimes felt like I was fighting the suspension to get the bike airborne.

    3) The bike is beautiful. Great lines, and the rear pivots really looks like industrial-design art.

    4) Cable routing is indeed not great. Not awful but lots of bulging and movement around the shock. Wish they'd gone with down the DT and onto the rear triangle like Santa Cruz does.

    5) Stock Honey Badger rear might be good for Arizona, but here in the PNW mud it was pretty useless.

    6) KS Lev Integra (which has been terrible on other bikes due to design where housing rather than cable movement actuates it) actually worked OK. Maybe it's that the routing goes down the DT and then turns into the ST, rather than going through a rubber grommet.

    7) Great efficiency on climbs. Really amazed that a 6+" bike can have this little pedal bob.

    8) Annoyingly, rebound adjust on Float X is impossible to reach with the shock installed. You have to use a small allen wrench to reach in and turn the wheel.

    9) I'm getting one.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation. I don't need to be reminded 5 times what brand bike I am riding. Luckily quality custom vinyl decals are easy to get locally and can camouflage any unwanted branding without looking bad.

    I can see the appeal of the stealth bike though....if I didn't live in the forest that scheme would be tempting.
    The blue definitely has a clear coat over it. On my green it seems as though it is some sort of screen print. I nicked the top tube sticker barely touching it with an allen wrench.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    The blue definitely has a clear coat over it. On my green it seems as though it is some sort of screen print. I nicked the top tube sticker barely touching it with an allen wrench.
    A mild scotchbrite pad could work on your M6. If the decals get old.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    So I got to spend 2+ hours demoing a Mach 6 today. There are lots of full reviews elsewhere, so here are just a few random thoughts:

    1) At just a shade under 6'3", I definitely want an XL. I was riding a Large and it felt noticeably cramped. 125mm dropper was at insert limit.

    2) DW and Fox Float X are a pretty sweet combo. Noticeably more progressive and composed suspension than the Bronson (my last bike.) Great on small bumps but ramps up quickly in the midstroke, where the Bronson had a more plush (but sometimes wallowy) feel. Landing drops I never felt remotely like I was close to bottoming it out, but rebound dampening settings were important; too much and it was harsh on small bumps, too little and it got unpleasantly springy landing bigger drops. Great lively feel when hitting features and jumps, where the Bronson sometimes felt like I was fighting the suspension to get the bike airborne.

    3) The bike is beautiful. Great lines, and the rear pivots really looks like industrial-design art.

    4) Cable routing is indeed not great. Not awful but lots of bulging and movement around the shock. Wish they'd gone with down the DT and onto the rear triangle like Santa Cruz does.

    5) Stock Honey Badger rear might be good for Arizona, but here in the PNW mud it was pretty useless.

    6) KS Lev Integra (which has been terrible on other bikes due to design where housing rather than cable movement actuates it) actually worked OK. Maybe it's that the routing goes down the DT and then turns into the ST, rather than going through a rubber grommet.

    7) Great efficiency on climbs. Really amazed that a 6+" bike can have this little pedal bob.

    8) Annoyingly, rebound adjust on Float X is impossible to reach with the shock installed. You have to use a small allen wrench to reach in and turn the wheel.

    9) I'm getting one.
    Awesome feedback and I like the way you compare it to the Bronson, I think I completely understand what you mean. Sounds similar to the way I have my HD setup with a shimmed air can, running it on medium compression. and even progression thru the travel.

    I'd like to get one, but dang I hate how you have to buy a whole new bike basically. I'm used to swapping frames. I think I'll be on the HD for another year.

  10. #60
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    Prevent cable rub at the top of rear shock body:

    I noticed that using protective tape was causing a squeak as the cables moved over it. Fixed the cable rub but annoying. I had some velcro tape laying around that I used in a similar way to dampen cable noise underneath the toptube of a previous bike (~8 yrs ago), and tried that instead. Seems to work well; no cable rub, no noise.

    Use the soft side of the velcro.


    Cut a small strip and apply it. It blends in well with the black shock body.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    Who cares what the numbers are? I bought this bike and it rides great!! True statement.

    But hey, you guys asked.

    fc
    How does it pedal, ride and handle compared to Sight b?
    Ride On!

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by francois View Post
    As far as Seat Tube Angles is concerned, I think 71 degrees is the safe, old-school bet. It'll work for sure.

    But there are new geometries now that are dropper post optimized. Bronson is at 73, Enduro is at 74+, Kona Process is at 74 and the sweet new Orbea Rallon is at 74+. And having ridden all these, I would say steeper is better for climbing and tooling around. And when the going gets going, drop the post.

    So it is not a deal breaker but the 73 degree neighborhood is better than the 71 Seat Angle hood.

    fc
    Lot of it is, that trail/AM bikes are getting slacker and slacker up front, so they steepen the ST to compensate so you can technically pedal and climb without dropper fork if needed and be in good/decent pedalling position when seated. My Rune sits at 65.5 front/74 rear in mid-setting, 65 front/73.5 rear in slack/low setting. I have it in this for the lower BB, but think 65 front is a bit excessive for trail/AM riding even with fork dropped. Think Knolly nailed the numbers for an all purpose AM/trail bike with their Warden that has a 66 front/74 rear, 13.3 BB in slack position. Every bike rides differently dependent upon suspension kinematics, sag, set-up, etc, but those or perfect numbers to me for do-all trail slayer on all terrain (chunk to smooth) and is only reason I probably won't get a M6 (unless my full day demo in Sedona in 2 weeks fully wins me over )
    Ride On!

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertj View Post
    Prevent cable rub at the top of rear shock body:

    I noticed that using protective tape was causing a squeak as the cables moved over it. Fixed the cable rub but annoying. I had some velcro tape laying around that I used in a similar way to dampen cable noise underneath the toptube of a previous bike (~8 yrs ago), and tried that instead. Seems to work well; no cable rub, no noise.

    Use the soft side of the velcro.


    Cut a small strip and apply it. It blends in well with the black shock body.
    Great idea. I am also going to make the standoff's taller as well and I think that will take care of it.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yody View Post
    Doesn't sound like any of us know exactly how the STA works, including myself and especially others (lol). Interesting subject.
    I think STA doesn't really mean anything any more, since no modern FS MTB has a straight ST. So you pick an arbitrary point above the ST as the saddle position, then draw a straight line to the BB. But what's that point, and do all manufacturers use the same one? The same is true of "effective" TT; where do you measure from/to to get that number?

    This is why the use of stack/reach numbers has become prevalent. I think that started with tri bikes, which had similar issues (Check out a Cervelo P5 & try to figure out the STA).

  15. #65
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    My input on STA is that the number doesn't mean all that much on its own. It's how your body "meshes" with that number that's important. I've ridden/owned numerous rigs with varying angles. The STA number has little effect on the performance of the bike when you factor in dropper posts.

    Where does it matter for me? My knees. I don't have joint problems, but I can definitely feel more and more pressure in my knees as the seat angle gets slacker. Everyone is obviously going to differ in this regard.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta View Post
    Lot of it is, that trail/AM bikes are getting slacker and slacker up front, so they steepen the ST to compensate so you can technically pedal and climb without dropper fork if needed and be in good/decent pedalling position when seated. My Rune sits at 65.5 front/74 rear in mid-setting, 65 front/73.5 rear in slack/low setting. I have it in this for the lower BB, but think 65 front is a bit excessive for trail/AM riding even with fork dropped. Think Knolly nailed the numbers for an all purpose AM/trail bike with their Warden that has a 66 front/74 rear, 13.3 BB in slack position. Every bike rides differently dependent upon suspension kinematics, sag, set-up, etc, but those or perfect numbers to me for do-all trail slayer on all terrain (chunk to smooth) and is only reason I probably won't get a M6 (unless my full day demo in Sedona in 2 weeks fully wins me over )
    Very true!!

    And with the dropper posts almost mandatory, the downside of steep head tube angle (too far forward on descents) is negated.
    IPA will save America

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgusta View Post
    How does it pedal, ride and handle compared to Sight b?
    Don't know yet. I have some BS knee issues that are preventing me from riding well.

    But this Pivot is plush. Crazy plush. And the rear/forward balance of the suspension is just so good as they just both sink in as I sit on it.

    Someone bought my Norco yesterday so it is bye-bye now. It's just me and Pivot now.

    fc
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Tell me bad things about the Mach 6-p1280136.jpg  

    Tell me bad things about the Mach 6-img_1751.jpg  

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  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post
    So I got to spend 2+ hours demoing a Mach 6 today. There are lots of full reviews elsewhere, so here are just a few random thoughts:

    ....

    Incredible observations in such a short span. Where do you live? We could have used you when we took a look at 25 bikes last month.

    fc
    IPA will save America

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrewBird View Post

    2) DW and Fox Float X are a pretty sweet combo. Noticeably more progressive and composed suspension than the Bronson (my last bike.) Great on small bumps but ramps up quickly in the midstroke, where the Bronson had a more plush (but sometimes wallowy) feel. Landing drops I never felt remotely like I was close to bottoming it out, but rebound dampening settings were important; too much and it was harsh on small bumps, too little and it got unpleasantly springy landing bigger drops. Great lively feel when hitting features and jumps, where the Bronson sometimes felt like I was fighting the suspension to get the bike airborne.
    Sorry for the slight OT, but I'll bring it back to the M6 at the end...

    The wallowy feel is a common complaint of the longer travel SC VPP bikes. My Nomad exhibited that and it was one of my only dislikes about the bike.

    I sent my shock to Avalanche and told Craig what I didn't like about it. He rebuilt it with his SSD [speed specific damping] internals. The Nomad was a new bike afterwards. Lots of mid-stroke support. More poppy off jumps and I could set it and forget it. I'm not up on all the suspension magic about SSD, but it's perfect on the climbs, flats and DH sections without messing with any adjustments [Pro Pedal, etc...]

    If I had bout a Bronson I'd get the shock Avy'd before the first ride.

    Okay...M6 content:

    Avy is now offering rebuild kits for:

    - Fox 34's
    - Fox CTD shocks
    - Fox Float X
    - Pikes [both a new cartridge and rebuild the charger cartridge with avy part]

    That should cover most M6 builds.

    I'll be sending away my rear shock and Pike to get Avy'd next winter after a season of riding. I wish I had done my Nomad sooner!
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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  20. #70
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    Agreed about everyone being different. SA only gets you to a point where you can attach the saddle, which is your real point of contact. I've owned steeper SA bikes such as a '00 Truth and 06 Epiphany which used to give me knee pain until I installed a setback seatpost. With the lack of setback droppers much steeper SAs would likely not be a good fit for folks with longer legs.

    Suspension characteristics such as a tendency to squat will effectively reduce the SA under steep climbing, so bikes with this characteristic probably benefit from a steeper SA to even things out. I've owned several bikes with squat tendencies such as FSR, ICT, and 4x4.

    The problem for me with these bikes that employ steeper SAs to give better climbing angles while squatting, is that they are compromised elsewhere, where my weight was too far forward while riding with the seat all the way up. With the DW, I don't think the same compromises need to be made, so steeper SAs are not necessarily required.

    The best thing to do is demo the Mach 6 and see if the SA is really problematic given the DW link characteristics. Trying to compare specs with other manufacturers that have different suspension characteristics is not all that productive; but does make for some interesting discussion.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertj View Post
    ...

    The best thing to do is demo the Mach 6 and see if the SA is really problematic given the DW link characteristics. Trying to compare specs with other manufacturers that have different suspension characteristics is not all that productive; but does make for some interesting discussion.

    Excellent, excellent feedback.

    Demoing a bike to understand nuances like this though is very, very difficult. One has to be very experienced, know what to look for and be at place that is techy enough to test the suspension.

    And I will say this about the Mach 6... it will be the hardest bike to demo this year. They don't have a big demo bike program and EVERYBODY wants to demo this bike. 6 friends have asked me already! And we have a **** ton other fancy bikes in the office. But everyone wants this.

    fc
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  22. #72
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    Popular bike at the demo, so I ended up riding an XL, which felt fine. I'm 6'1, and ride a large Firebird and medium Glory so maybe I'm just not picky haha. I should have gotten on a large M6 just to see if it felt different. I thought it handled great with the lower BB height as well. I was also surprised how the Kendas on there preformed, as the ones on my Firebird never touched dirt based on prior demo experiences.
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  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by waldo1 View Post
    In currently on a 2014 sworks enduro with 650b wheels and fork but am very tempted to buy a mach 6.
    It's a size large enduro.
    Numbers are deceiving, especially with specialized.
    Their seat tube in relation to the bb is very far forward so people think that the tt is short, but the 'reach' it's big and i think this is why the Command post is a layback/setback design.
    I can imagine the m6 being a similar feel to my old mojo hd's, which i liked. ....until it kept cracking!
    The one thing that did bother me slightly with the dw was that the anti sqaut design did sit up alot on very steep stuff which forced the saddle to hit me in the crown jewels a lot.
    Reviews are saying the m6 dw is even more progressive, does this mean that the anti squat is more pronounced than a hd?
    Im very close to buying this frame and pouring all the kit from the sworks on to this.
    Will my shimano 73mm cranks fit with a conversion bb or is the width different?
    Also i have a 30.9 stealth reverb atm, will this fit or is the post a 31.6?

    Thanks,your advice is appreciated.
    Just order a seat post shim from gravity dropper, your LBS, or eBay. I use them on two of my bikes with no problems.
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  24. #74
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    Tell me bad things about the Mach 6

    To continue along the SA vain and to reiterate what jazzanova said, since this is a bike that most of us are pedalling, the seat position should be set up in the most optimal/efficient position in relation to the BB as per bike fit philosophies (ie. knee cap to spindle relationship). Whatever the SA is shouldn't affect where this ideal seat position is behind the BB. In other words on a bike with steeper SA then the seat will be back on the rails and on a bike with shallower SA then the seat will be more forward, either way SAME position relative to BB.

    Is there something I'M missing? Please school me if so.

    As a side effect this makes REACH a more accurate measurement when gauging fit. Maybe REACH measurements should be given by all manufacturers at a common given height above the BB to make it an even better comparison?

    Drewbird, because I'm looking at XLs in Bronson and Mach 6 as well, how did u find the fit and did you consider your seat position? Haven't been able to jump on an XL 6 but definitely prefer the longer fit of the Bronson over my 4 year old HD.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by robnow View Post

    Is there something I'M missing? Please school me if so.

    As a side effect this makes REACH a more accurate measurement when gauging fit. Maybe REACH measurements should be given by all manufacturers at a common given height above the BB to make it an even better comparison?
    Assuming you have enough adjustment in the saddle/seatpost to get the saddle in the optimal position you should do so. Then setup the bars & stem appropriately. I think a lot of people work the opposite way..or adjust both to sort out the saddle-bar distance. That might be a result of buying a frame that's too small and being forced to adjust the saddle as well as the bars to get the bike to fit. If you are buying a bike based on Eff TT and then slide your saddle way forward to deal with a slack STA you are shortening your distance to the bars. So you need to keep that in mind when selecting a frame if you can't get fitted to a bike in person.

    The Reach measurement needs to be done at different heights above the BB because that's the reality of different bikes. No point knowing what the reach to the bottom of the HT on one frame is vs. to the top of the HT on another if you had a fixed distance above the BB. You can't place the bars lower than the top of the HT so that's a logical place to measure reach to on each bike.

    The Stack measurement lets you compare how far above the BB the Reach is measured when comparing bikes.

    Reach and stack based sizing for mountain bikes - Pinkbike
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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