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  1. #1
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    Pivot Firebird vs. Turner RFX

    I posted the same questions on the Turner forum, and would like to hear thoughts on this side of the fence. Turner RFX vs. Pivot Firebird: stiffness??

    Looking into the future I am thinking of either of the two bikes. I'm thinking that the geometries will be similar. One of the things that will be of major consideration for my phat butt is frame stiffness.

    I realize neither has been released, but based upon previous models is there in preconceived ideas about which will be stiffer?

    thanks
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  2. #2
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    I'm strickly speculating. I think the fireird may have more to offer. Both bikes will likely be quite stiff. Firebird may be a schmidge stiffer. My thought behind that reasoning is that lower link that Pivot uses. It's one heck of a chunk of metal. Thats just part of it. Inside there are stacked bearings. 8 in all. This alone should add stiffness as well as providing bearing longevity.

    Other things to think of are the Floating shock. Pretty trick. And as I mentioned on the Turner forum the front derailuer thing-a-ma-bob. That will certainly help with the long travel clearance issues I know I've dealt with on my present bike.

    Also don't forget, that currently the Firebird has more travel.

    This is what I know Until a DW RFX actually exisits.
    Good luck witht the decision.

  3. #3
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    No bikes are less in flex than the Pivot bikes. The Firebird prototypes are phenomenally minimal in lateral and torsion flex. Production bikes also tend to be stiffer than prototypes.

    You should demo ride both. The feel and balance has many variables besides flex.

    The DWL Turner bikes now in production are not very flexy at all and will handle the same terrain with a different feel than a Pivot bike with similar travel and frame geometry.

    Pivot tends to have higher BB's more suited for pedaling rough trail than most other builders including Turner who are trending towards very low BB's for more typical rides where there is easier climbing access to challenging downhill trails where a low BB is slightly more stable and low pedaling clearance is not such a handicap when mostly coasting and braking downhill.

  4. #4
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    Might want to check the Turner site....it's been posted on the Turner board that the RFX won't be out until 2010. I know you're thinking of the future but I just want to make sure you're aware of that.....

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddraewwg
    Might want to check the Turner site....it's been posted on the Turner board that the RFX won't be out until 2010. I know you're thinking of the future but I just want to make sure you're aware of that.....
    Wow I didn't realize it would be that long. Thanks
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  6. #6
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    I thought the RFX was comming out late summer '09? Perhaps interbike. Guess that is a way off.

    Firebird 4 ME!!!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    No bikes are less in flex than the Pivot bikes. .
    You gotta stop making asanine statements like this.

    Sure they are stiff bikes, but your statement is dogmatic and ignorant. Stiffer than Foes? I highly doubt it, and that doesn't mean that foes are great bikes or that the pivots are flexy, but your statements are utterly asanine. It wouldn't even be a good idea for me to say that foes are the "stiffest" bikes, but I've owned one and I know that they are pretty darn stiff.

    On the BB comment, Turner has never really done the "super low BB" thing, they lowered it slightly on the 08 and then 09 RFXs, but not super low as you are claiming. DT has said this himself. I'm not sure how you come up with this kind of crap.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Stiffer than Foes?
    Ha! I really am ignorant about Foes stiffness. I did see one live in a showroom 400 miles away a few years ago. Foes are great looking bikes. I bet Foes are no stiffer than the Pivot bikes either.

    My opinion on Pivot bike stiffness compared to all others is evidence based from testing many bikes myself and projecting the high probability that there are no stiffer bikes, not dogma at all.

    I suppose the near 1/2 inch lower BB height of new Turner bikes compared to Pivot's may not be important differences to some riders comparing the two brands. Many riders' opinions, which I agree with, is that Pivot gets it right with their BB heights. 1/2 inch lower is very low and irritating to have to focus on constantly timing to avoid pedal strikes, bringing loss of confidence on the rougher trails we like the most.

    Again my points are that Pivots are among, if not the stiffest bikes made. And I suggest demoing them since the flex difference isn't a big factor in overall ride feel between the two brands.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    You gotta stop making asanine statements like this.

    Sure they are stiff bikes, but your statement is dogmatic and ignorant. Stiffer than Foes? I highly doubt it, and that doesn't mean that foes are great bikes or that the pivots are flexy, but your statements are utterly asanine. It wouldn't even be a good idea for me to say that foes are the "stiffest" bikes, but I've owned one and I know that they are pretty darn stiff.

    On the BB comment, Turner has never really done the "super low BB" thing, they lowered it slightly on the 08 and then 09 RFXs, but not super low as you are claiming. DT has said this himself. I'm not sure how you come up with this kind of crap.
    Have you also noted the comments coming from the Ibis forum members that are certainly anti-Turner since the announcement of DW licensing was made?

    It's bordering on EW proportions now.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by derby
    Ha! I really am ignorant about Foes stiffness. I did see one live in a showroom 400 miles away a few years ago. Foes are great looking bikes. I bet Foes are no stiffer than the Pivot bikes either.

    My opinion on Pivot bike stiffness compared to all others is evidence based from testing many bikes myself and projecting the high probability that there are no stiffer bikes, not dogma at all.

    I suppose the near 1/2 inch lower BB height of new Turner bikes compared to Pivot's may not be important differences to some riders comparing the two brands. Many riders' opinions, which I agree with, is that Pivot gets it right with their BB heights. 1/2 inch lower is very low and irritating to have to focus on constantly timing to avoid pedal strikes, bringing loss of confidence on the rougher trails we like the most.

    Again my points are that Pivots are among, if not the stiffest bikes made. And I suggest demoing them since the flex difference isn't a big factor in overall ride feel between the two brands.
    I believe DT said that the BB was not going to go below 14", so the firebird has a 14.5" BB? The 08 RFX has a 14.1" BB. Checking the pivot website, they state a 13.85" BB.

    The pivot has a [size=10]LOWER BOTTOM BRACKET [/size]than the RFX.
    These are not the "sub 14" BBs that everyone seems to be moving to on the slope-style bikes. Are you just making this stuff up or what?

    No doubt you're ignorant, the Foes was just one example, and I'm sure I could think of plenty of others that were very "stiff" laterally, it's rediculous to call the pivot the "stiffest", even if it is FAR stiffer than most, just like it would be rediculous to call the La Bruja the "stiffest", even though it is a very laterally rigid bike. It's simply because there are so many other bikes that compete. If you wanted to say it's the stiffest new bike in that travel catagory, it would still be hard to prove, but at least a little less dogmatic.

    As we've said a while back, you've gone way off the deep end.
    Last edited by Jayem; 12-22-2008 at 06:02 PM.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Have you also noted the comments coming from the Ibis forum members that are certainly anti-Turner since the announcement of DW licensing was made?

    It's bordering on EW proportions now.
    What thread(s) are you referring to?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    I believe DT said that the BB was not going to go below 14", so the firebird has a 14.5" BB? The 08 RFX has a 14.1" BB. Checking the pivot website, they state a 13.85" BB.

    The pivot has a [size=10]LOWER BOTTOM BRACKET [/size]than the RFX.
    These are not the "sub 14" BBs that everyone seems to be moving to on the slope-style bikes. Are you just making this stuff up or what?

    No doubt you're ignorant, the Foes was just one example, and I'm sure I could think of plenty of others that were very "stiff" laterally, it's rediculous to call the pivot the "stiffest", even if it is FAR stiffer than most, just like it would be rediculous to call the Foes La Bruja the "stiffest", even though it is a very laterally rigid bike. It's simply because there are so many other bikes that compete. If you wanted to say it's the stiffest new bike in that travel catagory, it would still be hard to prove, but at least a little less dogmatic.

    As we've said a while back, you've gone way off the deep end.
    I think you mean Ventana... ?
    Stupid, but sometimes witty. Occasionally brilliant. Slow and fat though.

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by iheartbicycles
    I think you mean Ventana... ?
    Yeah, whatever.

    In any case, the above was absolutely not comments about what bike is better, just about blatent misinformation from Derby again.
    "It's only when you stand over it, you know, when you physically stand over the bike, that then you say 'hey, I don't have much stand over height', you know"-T. Ellsworth

    You're turning black metallic.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jayem
    Yeah, whatever.

    In any case, the above was absolutely not comments about what bike is better, just about blatent misinformation from Derby again.
    (How'd I find this thread anyway?)

    Everyone knows the 6.6 is the stiffest of all bikes, so stiff I had to replace mine.

    Seriously then, Pivot makes a very stiff bike.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TIMBERRR
    I thought the RFX was comming out late summer '09? Perhaps interbike. Guess that is a way off.

    Firebird 4 ME!!!
    Yeah, I imagine DT will have some RFXs ready for I-bike in late September if all goes well, but even at that the first production runs won't be showing up until this time next year or early 2010.

    I'd sure like to give the Firebird another shot, because it is a beautifully built bike and very stiff laterally. The benefits of the DW link on climbs and standing sprints are obvious and amazing. I just wish I could get the plush deep feeling from it that I'd expect from a 6.5" AM bike.

    I am very interested to see how the new DW-link RFX compares. If we can draw any conclusions from the new Sultan and 5Spot it should be very good. Stiff, very stable and bob-free on climbs and standing efforts with a reasonably plush, controlled, active feel on chop and rough descents. Will it be better than the Firebird? Time will tell.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerk_Chicken
    Have you also noted the comments coming from the Ibis forum members that are certainly anti-Turner since the announcement of DW licensing was made?

    It's bordering on EW proportions now.

    Your kidding right? I havn't seen one anit turner thread in the Ibis forum. Probably one of the most civilized forums on this site. Why are you stirring the pot!

    As for the stiffness, I have only rode the Mach 5, good bike, set up with a stiff shock and terrible rear tire for Colorado. (Small block 8) I would own one in a heart beat. The new firebird seems like a great bike, but wow is it heavy. If heavy translates to stiff, you can keep it. In Colorado we have to go up to get down and going up tends to be very hard here. We need both lightweight and long travel.

    How awesome would it be able to do a personal shootout between the Firebird, RFX and when it comes out Yeti Seven.

    Erik

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by bedell99
    Your kidding right? I havn't seen one anit turner thread in the Ibis forum. Probably one of the most civilized forums on this site. Why are you stirring the pot!

    As for the stiffness, I have only rode the Mach 5, good bike, set up with a stiff shock and terrible rear tire for Colorado. (Small block 8) I would own one in a heart beat. The new firebird seems like a great bike, but wow is it heavy. If heavy translates to stiff, you can keep it. In Colorado we have to go up to get down and going up tends to be very hard here. We need both lightweight and long travel.

    How awesome would it be able to do a personal shootout between the Firebird, RFX and when it comes out Yeti Seven.

    Erik
    I doubt the 7 will even be in the same league. That bike will surely be more dh focused. The FB and RFX will be better @ climbing and no doubt be able to hold there own on the dh.
    There is a lot to be said of DW performance.
    A single pivot is just so old news and so dated.

    Lastly, I would take a heavier, stiffer(laterly), and more efficient design over a slightly lighter, flexy, bobbing, squating, turd(yeti) any day.

    Just my .02

  18. #18
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    its amazing how much arguing can take place about bikes that don't even exist yet. wtf?

  19. #19
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    The RFX is 12 whole months away so this is an open ended discussion with no meaning....

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbieracer
    The RFX is 12 whole months away so this is an open ended discussion with no meaning....
    Till the Firebird is sold it is just as much part of the open ended discussion as the RFX.

  21. #21
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    Not so, the Firebird has been ridden by both public and press, and its final specs have been published.

    The Turner RFX will not be like the one published, as DT has said, and when it appears in another form, it will be 12 months off.

    So the Firebird is a known quantity, by at least some people.
    The RFX is an unkown Unfortunately

  22. #22
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    Yes, speculation to some degree.... but I have ridden the Firebird and the new DW-link 5Spot and Sultan and have persoanlly talked to Dave T about what his plans for the new RFX are, and I've ridden enough Turners to know that some things won't change about a Turner no matter what the rear suspension design is, so feel like I have a pretty good idea about what the RFX will be like also.

    Like I said in my previous post..... if it's as efficient, stiff, and plush as the Spot and Sultan but in a 6.5" package it should be a hit..... and based on my experience with the Firebird I think I will like it better.

    But, like I said before..... time will tell.

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