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Thread: Made in . . . ?

  1. #1
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    Made in . . . ?

    Howdy, wondered if any one can tell me where the Pivot frames are manufactured?

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    Taiwan.

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    I would imagine they are manufactured in a frame jig.
    "It looks flexy"

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    Here's an interview with the Pivot founder that explains their construction and assembly process.

    http://www.dirtragmag.com/node/32185

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    Quote Originally Posted by NTZeek
    Howdy, wondered if any one can tell me where the Pivot frames are manufactured?
    Would that be a deciding factor?

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    You want bike parts made in Taiwan not China!

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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885
    Would that be a deciding factor?

    No probably not deciding factor, but I haven't decided yet. I do value made in USA, and I am looking at the Flux. I think the M4 is more XC oriented and I dig the BB and tapered HS. When it is made in the USA I know that my $ is not supporting exploitation, but instead helps some american family have a moderate wage.

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    It's only going to be tougher and tougher. Unless the government stop taxing US manufactures, and drop the regulations to the minimum. And start Taxing Imports more.

    There's noting wrong with Pivot made oversea, it's actually more high tech than here. If you want thing to change tell that by making your voice heard. It's the big brother's problems not bike companies. Take it up with them.

    BTW, the computer that you are using to post this thread is pretty much 100% Asian parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NTZeek
    When it is made in the USA I know that my $ is not supporting exploitation, but instead helps some american family have a moderate wage.
    So let's see:
    #1 American companies don't exploit their workers?
    #2 The employees of Pivot in AZ aren't Americans?





    For those who can't make the Dirt Rag link above work, see below for the pertinent parts. The answer's not so black and white.

    - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

    DR: Where do you have them made?

    CC: That's a good conversation. We build the frames in Taiwan. But it's quite a bit different than the typical Taiwanese frame. Actually some of the high-tolerance hardware we make in our facility, like the bolts and the pivot pins, things like that. The weld rod is proprietary weld rod that's made in the U.S., that we actually box and ship over there. We have three CNC machines in our shop. We basically have a full production facility, and instead of just doing a blueprint and taking it over to a vendor over there and letting them build the whole bike, we actually build all the frame fixtures, all the tooling to hold each step of the process. We'll do the first pilot production run, we'll bring their people over, and we’ll show them the weld order and how to build that bike from start to finish. Then we'll transfer our tooling over to them.

    And then when the frames come back, there are 28 steps that we go through, where the rear triangle gets put on its own alignment fixture and checked, the head tube gets re-faced, every item you could possibly check on the frame is double-checked and then we assemble the whole frame ourselves, torque all the bolts, press in the bottom bracket, make sure everything is correct and on the money, so that the perfect bike goes out. The frame manufacturer that we use over there is a very small family-owned frame manufacturer. We have our own weld line and the three guys that weld our frames, they're like the brother and the cousins of the owner, they're experts at what they do.

    The company had not built suspension bikes before I went over there, so we didn't go to a place that says, "We build a million suspension bikes a year, we're going to do it the way we do it." I wanted to show them how we build a suspension bike, and how I build a suspension bike, and basically how I did it at Titus. The controls, the much more aerospace-like process of fixturing and holding and not just tacking and bending **** back into place somewhere down the line. Quite frankly, the typical Taiwan process is: get it through production fast and then we can fix it later.

    Even like special heat-treating fixtures that hold the rear triangle pivot point in place. The front triangle—after everything is welded, heat treated and aligned—the entire front triangle gets put on a CNC and the pivot points get bored to the correct locations. There's just a much higher level of fit and finish.

    Really, when it's all said and done, I could build the frames for the same or possibly less in my own facility doing all the production here, but all the forging capabilities are over there, all the hydroforming capabilities are over there. And then when it comes to the processes like anodizing and laser etch—in the city Taichung, where most of the bike industry lies, there's a couple heat treaters that literally treat almost everybody's bicycle and they're expert at not making a frame warp like a pretzel when it's heat treated, and how to hold it. Anodization is very difficult on a bicycle frame with all the nooks and crannies, and differences in front and rear triangles. There's literally nobody in the U.S. that can anodize a frame as well as those guys over there. So our goal is to build the best bike frame in the world and that takes a concerted effort of tooling design and engineering from us, and a lot of the processes that they have that we no longer have in the U.S. So that's the long answer to the short question of where the bikes are made.

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    Some good and helpful comments here. I agree that this is a big brother issue. I would like to see better trade controls as well as reduced taxes here at home.

    The dirtmag article is very helpful as well. Ventana and Turner have been able to get good anodizing going on a small scale here in the USA, but both are challenged when it comes to hydro forming, and other advanced techniques.

    Quote Originally Posted by coolhandluchs
    So let's see:
    #1 American companies don't exploit their workers?
    #2 The employees of Pivot in AZ aren't Americans?
    I think I follow your logic here. Do you mean to say that American companies do exploit their workers similar to Asian employers and that the Pivot employees in AZ would represent the majority of the frame cost? If so, you may have a difficult position to defend.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NTZeek
    I think I follow your logic here. Do you mean to say that American companies do exploit their workers similar to Asian employers and that the Pivot employees in AZ would represent the majority of the frame cost? If so, you may have a difficult position to defend.
    Not trying to take any position. Just pointing out that you made some very broad and general statements.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolhandluchs
    Not trying to take any position. Just pointing out that you made some very broad and general statements.
    That is true and it appears you are right to call me on it. Sounds like the Pivot partner in Taiwan is a family run business where people are likely to get a livable and maybe even moderate wage for their area.

    I think Chris may be stretching a bit to say that he could have his frames built here for the same price, but I get the point.

    Without scaled implementation through some trade barriers until our trade partners catch up, we end up with little manufacturing done on our own soil.

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    Frame welders in Taiwan were making in the range of $40,000/year about 10 years ago. I have no idea what the wage scale is like now.
    "It looks flexy"

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    Nearly every electrical appliance in you house comes from Asia, probably even the shirt on your back, the shoes on your feet and the mobile phone in your pocket .
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    Only thing is that Pivot charges domestic prices for foreign-built frames.

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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    Only thing is that Pivot charges domestic prices for foreign-built frames.
    Are companies not allowed to make a profit? You think the DW link patent stuff comes free?

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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    Only thing is that Pivot charges domestic prices for foreign-built frames.
    I don't believe this to be true. Check out the turners and you will see they are more expensive due to the usa made badging. You do get a break due to oversea manufacturing.
    Same with ellsworth. More expensive.

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    You're not getting that much of a break for the greatly widened profit margin.

    Are companies not allowed to make a profit? You think the DW link patent stuff comes free?
    Certainly companies are allowed to make profits and blow them the hell out of proportion. Why can't I say as a consumer that the prices are ridiculous? I especially love it when a companies moves production over, then raises prices.

    The DW patent isn't responsible for hundreds of dollars of distance between the same percentage of profit (when compared to an American made frame) and what the Taiwan frame sells for.

    Just look at how Banshee works. They use Pacific, which is perhaps one of the highest end Taiwanese subcontractors, and they really do well with the pricing. Like $1k less than a Pivot.

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    You have nothing to whinge about mate , you can buy a 429 in the us for $1799 or even the pre discounted price of $2199 (speedgoat) , they are nearly $3000 here in Australia , the exchange rate is 1:1 and we are geographically closer than you.

    I have no problems at all in buying a Taiwan made frame from the US and getting it shipped here. So it has circumnavigated the globe and paid tax in 2 countries before i get it and its still cheaper. Ive done my bit for the US and Oz , but i haven't lined the greedy Australian importers pocket with cash .

    If they have an agreement not to ship outside the USA .... www.viaddress.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx
    You have nothing to whinge about mate , you can buy a 429 in the us for $1799 or even the pre discounted price of $2199 (speedgoat) , they are nearly $3000 here in Australia , the exchange rate is 1:1 and we are geographically closer than you.

    I have no problems at all in buying a Taiwan made frame from the US and getting it shipped here. So it has circumnavigated the globe and paid tax in 2 countries before i get it and its still cheaper. Ive done my bit for the US and Oz , but i haven't lined the greedy Australian importers pocket with cash .

    If they have an agreement not to ship outside the USA .... www.viaddress.com
    What's the import duty on US frames coming into OZ?

    If I could, I would eliminate all of them, everywhere - separate the men from the boys.

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    $999.99 is free as a bird , $1000 and over get approx 15% penalty , 10%gst and the others customs fees . So if a frame was $2000 it will cost you/me $2300 approx to bring in .

    A Niner AIR9/ONE9 frame here is around $1250-$1450 , i just bought one SHIPPED here for $650 total !
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx
    $999.99 is free as a bird , $1000 and over get approx 15% penalty , 10%gst and the others customs fees . So if a frame was $2000 it will cost you/me $2300 approx to bring in .

    A Niner AIR9/ONE9 frame here is around $1250-$1450 , i just bought one SHIPPED here for $650 total !
    Well *****, next time have them take the rear end off, send it for $999, then send the front end separately for another $999. F@cking vampires.....

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    Hmmmm .... go to the USPS/UPS website and price sending 2 x 5lb boxes to Australia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    You're not getting that much of a break for the greatly widened profit margin.
    I think you are way off on your estimate of the cost savings by building overseas. The frame price difference between a Mach 5.7 and a Turner 5 spot is $400, that is a substantial savings. I work in finance for a company that does manufacture off shore, I promise you the price pressure that Pivot feels to be able to compete with the Specialized, Giant, Pacific manufactures out their is huge. The large manufactures get substantial price breaks on the cost of the tubing, manufacturing of the frames, and also the part purchases such as the Fox RP23 shock on the bike. Pivot also carries a heavy R&D/limited US manufacturing expense that has to be paid for by a relatively low number of frames. While I hope that Chris and his team are making millions of dollars a year in take home income, I highly doubt it. He deserves to make as much money as he can, because he is the one that started the company and works his a$$ off everyday making my bike better.

    Sorry for the rant, I just hate the simple minded class warfare that currently pollutes what should be a free market system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx
    Nearly every electrical appliance in you house comes from Asia, probably even the shirt on your back, the shoes on your feet and the mobile phone in your pocket .
    Wouldn't it be easier to list what is made in USA?
    It'd be a shorter list

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    Quote Originally Posted by NTZeek
    Wouldn't it be easier to list what is made in USA?
    It'd be a shorter list
    Yep
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    Quote Originally Posted by NTZeek
    Wouldn't it be easier to list what is made in USA?
    It'd be a shorter list
    Very short, you've list 2 already. Intense and Turner. Foes, Ventana, And a whole bunch of custom makers.

  28. #28
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    To bring this back on topic. The factory we use in Taiwan is owned and run by women.
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
    Jack Handy

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    Hot sexy taiwanese women!!!

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    All i want to know is when are those Taiwanese woman going to have my Pheonix finished and shipped to The Path!

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    Quote Originally Posted by O'Peeler
    All i want to know is when are those Taiwanese woman going to have my Pheonix finished and shipped to The Path!
    As soon as they finish the World Karaoke Championship, too many contestants so it can be a while I'm also waiting for my HD.

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    You can add the high end Trek
    carbon frames the the list of built
    in the USA.

    Best, John

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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    Just look at how Banshee works. They use Pacific, which is perhaps one of the highest end Taiwanese subcontractors, and they really do well with the pricing. Like $1k less than a Pivot.
    IMO Banshee build quality is not as good as Pivot. The welds on every Banshee I've seen haven't looked anywhere near as nice and the same for the finish quality. Performance of a frame like the Spitfire is nowhere near as good as the Mach 5.

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    I have the first year of the Mach 5. Wasn't that made in the USA?

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    Quote Originally Posted by crank1979@optusnet.com.au
    IMO Banshee build quality is not as good as Pivot. The welds on every Banshee I've seen haven't looked anywhere near as nice and the same for the finish quality. Performance of a frame like the Spitfire is nowhere near as good as the Mach 5.
    In what way are they not close, and in what ways are they comparable? Aren't they designed for two completely different types of riding, despite having similar travel?

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by idbrian
    I have the first year of the Mach 5. Wasn't that made in the USA?
    All of the prototypes are made here. If the one you have the first Mach 5, I doubt it. But all pivots are assemble here in the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    In what way are they not close, and in what ways are they comparable? Aren't they designed for two completely different types of riding, despite having similar travel?
    I've said how the welds and finish quality are not the same, with Pivots being signifacntly better.

    Rear travel is comparable. They are both alumnium frames. Suspension design is similar. Geo is different but I'm comfortable on both. It's the performance of the rear suspension that really sets the two apart for me. The Mach 5 pedals better and the suspension feels more active. It simply does a better job in both areas than the Spitfire.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by crank1979@optusnet.com.au
    I've said how the welds and finish quality are not the same, with Pivots being signifacntly better.

    Rear travel is comparable. They are both alumnium frames. Suspension design is similar. Geo is different but I'm comfortable on both. It's the performance of the rear suspension that really sets the two apart for me. The Mach 5 pedals better and the suspension feels more active. It simply does a better job in both areas than the Spitfire.

    Some time it's not just the restaurant or the cooks it's the recipes and ingredients. Pivot obviously premium. Pacific own Cannondale among others, so they know how to how to put out nice welding frame. They just don't do it on Banshee that's all. IMO.

    Plus when I think of Banshee, I'm thinking FR stuff, those frame seems like they built to withstand abuse.

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    So slopestyle frames are the same thing as a trailbike, simply because they connect to two wheels?

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    Quote Originally Posted by junktrunk
    So slopestyle frames are the same thing as a trailbike, simply because they connect to two wheels?
    The Spitfire is described as Trail/AM on Banshee's website and the Mach 5 description on Pivot's website seems to describe it as a Trail/AM bike as well.

  41. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by crank1979@optusnet.com.au
    The Spitfire is described as Trail/AM on Banshee's website and the Mach 5 description on Pivot's website seems to describe it as a Trail/AM bike as well.

    Yeap , that's why Pivot worth more. Same class different league

  42. #42
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    Honestly , i cant see what the problem is. Who cares where they are made or assembled , does it make the bike perform any better just to know the Pivot has welded them in the USA and assembled them in the USA ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ozzybmx
    Honestly , i cant see what the problem is. Who cares where they are made or assembled , does it make the bike perform any better just to know the Pivot has welded them in the USA and assembled them in the USA ?
    Depends on what is important to you. It seems performance alone is important to you, and that is all fine and dandy.

    If you are saying that this is all I should be concerned about, then you may want to reconsider. I choose to support American workers when I can, and I don't like to purchase items that are made by people who are not paid fairly.

    As the rest of the thread shows, Pivot/Chris Cocalis seems to be conscious of concerns similar to mine.

  44. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by mimi1885
    All of the prototypes are made here. If the one you have the first Mach 5, I doubt it. But all pivots are assemble here in the US.
    No, I'm saying that my Mach 5 was from the Pivots first production year. I thought i read that they made the bikes in US for their first year.

    Not a big deal but was just curious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NTZeek
    Depends on what is important to you. It seems performance alone is important to you, and that is all fine and dandy.

    If you are saying that this is all I should be concerned about, then you may want to reconsider. I choose to support American workers when I can, and I don't like to purchase items that are made by people who are not paid fairly.

    As the rest of the thread shows, Pivot/Chris Cocalis seems to be conscious of concerns similar to mine.
    The other side is an aversion to supporting American, unionized, ticks, who are not paid fairly (paid way too much).

    I'm pretty sure the welders working on Pivot's stuff are highly paid, relative to their peers, over there.

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