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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel RW View Post
    check out this thread, Mach 6 Project bike
    thanks Joel

    have u got anymore shoots with you'res Rail50 wheels ??

    thanks for youre answer

  2. #102
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    I'm surprised to see so many 160mm pikes. Is the A-C measurement on the pike not longer than the float 34 for both the 150 and 160 versions? What sort of HA are you ending up with on the 160mm pike setups?
    AJ

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by FREDMIT View Post
    thanks Joel

    have u got anymore shoots with you'res Rail50 wheels ??

    thanks for youre answer
    Mach 6 Review Thread-img_0068.jpg
    Pivot mach 6!

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by zjchaser View Post
    I'm surprised to see so many 160mm pikes. Is the A-C measurement on the pike not longer than the float 34 for both the 150 and 160 versions? What sort of HA are you ending up with on the 160mm pike setups?
    The most accurate numbers I've come up with is a 160 Pike's A2C is 7mm taller than a Fox 34's 150.

    Anyone get anything different?

  5. #105
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    The Fox 34 160 measure 540 mm almost so much than the 150

    pike 160 measure 550 mm

    thank you Joel for your photo ....you ve got a very nice machine

  6. #106
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    MikerJ is correct, the Fox 34 150 275 is 544 A2C while the Pike 160 is 552 A2C. Travel for travel the Pike is 2 mm shorter A2C than Fox. Should make a difference of about 1/3 degree in the HA. Not that significant, but noticeable to some.

  7. #107
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    Those are the listed A2C lengths, they all can vary up to +/-5mm. If you run the the same sag % (25-30%) then the sagged A2C difference is only about 5mm total. Maybe some people are more sensitive to geo changes than me, but I can't feel a 1/4 degree HA change when I ride. You can get a bigger HA change by putting a beefier tire upfront on your bike.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by davemk View Post
    Those are the listed A2C lengths, they all can vary up to +/-5mm. If you run the the same sag % (25-30%) then the sagged A2C difference is only about 5mm total. Maybe some people are more sensitive to geo changes than me, but I can't feel a 1/4 degree HA change when I ride. You can get a bigger HA change by putting a beefier tire upfront on your bike.

    Yep. With that possibility of a +/- 5mm on the A2C, and if the fork went to the plus side on top of a 160mm Pike that additional +5 mm on the A2C could throw things off.

    On a bike that is plenty slack I would not go the 160mm. I like a lower BB and every time I've tried a longer-than-spec'd fork on a frame I could feel the difference and did not like the handling.

    10mm of travel on top of 150mm probably won't make that much difference to justify the gamble for me.

  9. #109
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    This interesting and all that but damn...just ride your bike! in the end you will adapt and just becomes meaningless techno babble!

  10. #110
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    yeah, RIDE the bike. agreed.

  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by techfersure View Post
    This interesting and all that but damn...just ride your bike! in the end you will adapt and just becomes meaningless techno babble!
    +1 You're so right

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by techfersure View Post
    This interesting and all that but damn...just ride your bike! in the end you will adapt and just becomes meaningless techno babble!
    Gotta disagree. MTBR banter is a surrogate for riding, albeit a poor one, when we are buried under feet of slush.

    When a real winter gets here, will post far less, as we'll be on skis.

  13. #113
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    Gottcha! love bike tech,but when debating over a few millimeters here a few degrees there when most riders will never ever feel the difference and even pros like Neko Mulally who I have the pleasure of riding with and a friend chuckles at these minor differences riders debate over in setup and geometry..." just ride your bike " is a quote he to is fond of too.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by techfersure View Post
    This interesting and all that but damn...just ride your bike! in the end you will adapt and just becomes meaningless techno babble!
    Would love to if it would ever get here!!!

  15. #115
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    I've got 85 miles and over 13k of vertical on the bike in the first five rides.
    All familiar trails with a great mix of flow, chunk, XC and steeps. I was riding a Carbine 275 for eight months before (Superfly 100 and Niner Rip9 before that).

    This bike is sublime. It does everything better than the Intense. Like other reviews have said, the climbing is very surprising and capable. Gobs of traction and super efficient, even when standing. I ride flats and can make climbs on this the Intense couldn't do. When it gets sandy, Mach 6 still grips (with same tire in the rear)

    Cornering and downhill is where this bike simply flies. My brain has a hard time keeping up with the speed it's so solid and seems to "take off" down the hill. I was 5 seconds quicker on a 2min descent on my first ride and not even pushing the bike The Fox shock is awesome. I was hesitant about it, but totally happy with it. I leave it in trail and will use "trail adjust" for climbs and descents.

    In the steeps, you can shift your weight back and let the rear end absorb everything and easily manual and bunny hop over sections. For cornering, the cockpit is just right to move a bit forward to weight the front wheel and carve away. Mind blowing!

    Bike does not feel slack at all and rips XC and tight switchbacks. I can't think of anything it dosen't do well, at least for trail riding.

    My bike was a X01 build with some pretty crappy components for this type of rig - long stem, skinny rims, skimpy rear tire, hideous saddle. The Fox fork is nowhere close to the Pike. I switched it out for a 150 Pike. Also, 175 cranks seem long for medium bike with a low BB. I will probably switch them for 170mm. Even with changing all of this stuff, it was still better to buy a complete bike than build a frame.

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttlemire View Post
    I've got 85 miles and over 13k of vertical on the bike in the first five rides.
    All familiar trails with a great mix of flow, chunk, XC and steeps. I was riding a Carbine 275 for eight months before (Superfly 100 and Niner Rip9 before that).

    This bike is sublime. It does everything better than the Intense. Like other reviews have said, the climbing is very surprising and capable. Gobs of traction and super efficient, even when standing. I ride flats and can make climbs on this the Intense couldn't do. When it gets sandy, Mach 6 still grips (with same tire in the rear)

    Cornering and downhill is where this bike simply flies. My brain has a hard time keeping up with the speed it's so solid and seems to "take off" down the hill. I was 5 seconds quicker on a 2min descent on my first ride and not even pushing the bike The Fox shock is awesome. I was hesitant about it, but totally happy with it. I leave it in trail and will use "trail adjust" for climbs and descents.

    In the steeps, you can shift your weight back and let the rear end absorb everything and easily manual and bunny hop over sections. For cornering, the cockpit is just right to move a bit forward to weight the front wheel and carve away. Mind blowing!

    Bike does not feel slack at all and rips XC and tight switchbacks. I can't think of anything it dosen't do well, at least for trail riding.

    My bike was a X01 build with some pretty crappy components for this type of rig - long stem, skinny rims, skimpy rear tire, hideous saddle. The Fox fork is nowhere close to the Pike. I switched it out for a 150 Pike. Also, 175 cranks seem long for medium bike with a low BB. I will probably switch them for 170mm. Even with changing all of this stuff, it was still better to buy a complete bike than build a frame.
    Good info since the main concern of most (me included) is the bike will be too slack for normal trail riding. I am tossed between the M6 and the Bronson. Have you ridden both bikes? I normally ride a Large frame but it seems the Pivots might run larger than most. If am 5-10. How tall are you? I like a 50mm stem and I am concerned the Medium will have too short of a top tube.

  17. #117
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    Re: Mach 6 Review Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by endoguru View Post
    Good info since the main concern of most (me included) is the bike will be too slack for normal trail riding. I am tossed between the M6 and the Bronson. Have you ridden both bikes? I normally ride a Large frame but it seems the Pivots might run larger than most. If am 5-10. How tall are you? I like a 50mm stem and I am concerned the Medium will have too short of a top tube.
    I found the Mach6 to be a great climber as well, especially considering its travel. It really did not feel like 66 degree HA. It also felt a bit lighter than its actual weight, which I contribute to DW link.

    I am 5'9" and the medium fit me just right. BTW, the reach on the M Mach6 is even lower than on SC Solo or Bronson...
    I ride a medium SC TRc and a TB, so I am used to short TT.
    I have ridden a M Bronson and M and L Solo. I think I am definitely between sizes on SC bikes, the M felt nice on DH, but it was a bit cramped climbing. The solo had a 50 or 60mm stem.
    If you decide for a Bronson, a large might be a better fit for you.
    With Mach, it gets a bit more complicated, since the TT is longer, but the reach is shorter. But the bike has a slacker ST, which might contribute to a better fit on M.
    Well, for me, I would definitely go with a medium on Mach, on Bronson or Solo it depends, but I might be more inclined to get a large.

  18. #118
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    I decided to measure the head angle on the bike and an angle finder (from Lowe's) and the Clinometer iPhone app both are reading 69 degrees. I tested the clinometer against a level and it's spot on for level and 90 degrees, but shows 49 when level shows 45. I'm running a 150mm Pike. This might explain why it feels so good on the XC trails.

    I'm just under 5ft 9in. Mach6 medium feels perfect. My medium Carbine 275 felt a bit cramped with a 50mm stem. The longer top tube really lets you move forward and backward to weight and unweight the front wheel depending on the trail. I wouldn't say the frames run big, they just have a bit more stretched out top tube, but when you run a short stem the reach feels right and the bike is more stable. A lot of trail/am bikes are going this route (Norco, Kona, Giant).

  19. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttlemire View Post
    I decided to measure the head angle on the bike and an angle finder (from Lowe's) and the Clinometer iPhone app both are reading 69 degrees. I tested the clinometer against a level and it's spot on for level and 90 degrees, but shows 49 when level shows 45. I'm running a 150mm Pike. This might explain why it feels so good on the XC trails.
    It's hard to get an accurate HT angle measurement without the bike in a fixture. Being off by 2-3 deg wouldn't be hard. I can't see Pivot screwing up by 3 degrees from the design to the fabrication of the M6 and a 69 deg HT angle would be obvious as soon as you headed down anything steep.
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  20. #120
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    Mine reads 65.6 with a 160 Pike which is dead on Pivots measurement.

  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    It's hard to get an accurate HT angle measurement without the bike in a fixture. Being off by 2-3 deg wouldn't be hard. I can't see Pivot screwing up by 3 degrees from the design to the fabrication of the M6 and a 69 deg HT angle would be obvious as soon as you headed down anything steep.
    Yeah, the numbers don't seem to be accurate and it sure doesn't feel like a steep HA. How can I get an accurate head angle and seat angle measurement?

  22. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttlemire View Post
    Yeah, the numbers don't seem to be accurate and it sure doesn't feel like a steep HA. How can I get an accurate head angle and seat angle measurement?
    Accurate so I would trust it?

    A dedicated fixture that mounts the frame level and keeps the bike from moving. Not something anyone is going to have laying around and not likely worth building unless you need accurate HT angles on a regular basis.
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  23. #123
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    Make sure your phone cast is not interfering and is completely flat on the side. Also make sure you are using the stanchion and not the lowers for the measurement.

  24. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzanova View Post
    I found the Mach6 to be a great climber as well, especially considering its travel. It really did not feel like 66 degree HA. It also felt a bit lighter than its actual weight, which I contribute to DW link.

    I am 5'9" and the medium fit me just right. BTW, the reach on the M Mach6 is even lower than on SC Solo or Bronson...
    I ride a medium SC TRc and a TB, so I am used to short TT.
    I have ridden a M Bronson and M and L Solo. I think I am definitely between sizes on SC bikes, the M felt nice on DH, but it was a bit cramped climbing. The solo had a 50 or 60mm stem.
    If you decide for a Bronson, a large might be a better fit for you.
    With Mach, it gets a bit more complicated, since the TT is longer, but the reach is shorter. But the bike has a slacker ST, which might contribute to a better fit on M.
    Well, for me, I would definitely go with a medium on Mach, on Bronson or Solo it depends, but I might be more inclined to get a large.
    I ride a SC Blur TRc currently in a large frame. I am right at that point where I am in between sizes on many bikes. The SC bikes fit me fairly well in large frames but as you stated the Pivot TT is a little longer. What length stem are you running on the M6?

  25. #125
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    Re: Mach 6 Review Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by endoguru View Post
    I ride a SC Blur TRc currently in a large frame. I am right at that point where I am in between sizes on many bikes. The SC bikes fit me fairly well in large frames but as you stated the Pivot TT is a little longer. What length stem are you running on the M6?
    I had only 1 demo ride on the Mach6.. Not sure what size of stem was on it, whatever Pivot specs with the bike, I assume.

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  26. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Throttlemire View Post
    Yeah, the numbers don't seem to be accurate and it sure doesn't feel like a steep HA. How can I get an accurate head angle and seat angle measurement?
    Take a reading, rotate the bike 180 degrees, take another reading, average both numbers. That'll eliminate any level idiosyncrasies or calibration problems.
    On heavy rotation: White Lung: Deep Fantasy

  27. #127
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  28. #128
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    (slightly new topic, but still in context of M6 details/review)

    Anyone know the difference (in weight/performance/etc) between the wheel set that comes on the XTPro / X01 builds vs the 1501's that come on the XTR/XX1 builds?

  29. #129
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    Hi,

    I was wondering if anyone that tried or actually own a Mach 6 has experienced wobbling while climbing. I am worried that the slack head angle match to a slack seat tube angle results in a wobbling front end while climbing very steep stuff.

    I ride a 66 HA Slayer and the very steep seat tube angle (straight up geo) helps a lot while climbing.

    This is the only thing that prevents my wife from getting the Pivot.

    Thanks for your help

  30. #130
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    I have had no problems with steep climbs so far. It feels very well balanced to me.

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  31. #131
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    Lots of super steep technical climbs here, and very happy with my Mach 6.

    It would be best if she could demo one, but you probably already know that.

  32. #132
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    I bought a Medium last Thursday. I am 5/8 so I put a 55mm stem on it. This thing rails... It climbs very efficiently and flies down the trail. First fried I posted my best time on a trail I have been charting since 2008. 2 rides later I bested my favorite hot lap by 18 seconds on a 3 mile downhill. It is hard to believe how well this thing rides. Selling my Ellsworth because I doubt I will ride it much now that I have this beast.

  33. #133
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    after reading all this post i am ready to go for one

  34. #134
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    Safe riding,

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  35. #135
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    Thanks for posting that review. I think it is spot on; climbing, descending, and all around. Given my experience with my 429, I also expect long term quality to be stellar.

  36. #136
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    I completely agree with that review. It is a trail slayer in every sense of the word.

  37. #137
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    Salespunk do you feel it 100% overlaps with your HDR? Are there situations where one bike is more suitable than the other?

  38. #138
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    I have not ridden my HDR since I got the M6.... That probably answers the question best.

  39. #139
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    Mach 6 Review Thread

    Thnx. Tells me a lot!


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  40. #140
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    Quite a good write up at Pinkbike: Pivot Mach 6 Carbon - Reviewed - Pinkbike
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  41. #141
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    I took mine out for it's maiden voyage yesterday. One word? Stellar! Two words? BestAMBike IHaveEverRidden! Stiff, balanced traction front to rear, climbs great. She's worth every penny.

  42. #142
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    I just got a large M6 pro build. I previously had a 2008 XL Turner 5-spot. I loooove the M6. I was not sure about the upright positioning but it climbs stellar, even on the steeps. no wheel wandering, no hunching over to maintain front wheel contact on the ground. it absolutely rails the corners and I find myself going way faster than expected on the downhills. climbing traction is unreal. this bike makes me feel 10 years younger! Like everyone else, I agree that the cable routing near the shock is not great, but that should not dissuade anyone from this amazing bike.

  43. #143
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    Just ordered a medium blue frameset today from Competitive Cyclist. I wanted to hold off a bit but 12 months zero interest offer from Capital One pushed me over the edge. They also offer a great deal on other parts if you by them at the same time...a got a 2014 Pike 150mm for $707!! They are also putting it all together and shipping it for free, not to mention....no tax since I'm out of state.

  44. #144
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    great! curious as to what u will think about the Pike on this bike.
    I have too many bikes, but it's not enough

  45. #145
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    The Pike is a great match for this frame. I am running 160 and think it is a perfect compliment. A few of my friends are on 150 Pikes and have the 160 air rods on order to try out. Once they get some time and back to back comparisons I will update you guys.

  46. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salespunk View Post
    The Pike is a great match for this frame. I am running 160 and think it is a perfect compliment. A few of my friends are on 150 Pikes and have the 160 air rods on order to try out. Once they get some time and back to back comparisons I will update you guys.
    I'm up there in NC (and on Dirt Treaders as well) but have never run into you that I know of. I'll have to start looking for your bike. I'm a 29er guy at heart to be honest but bought this for riding up at Big Bear after going last year and feeling like I was 10 feet in the air of some of the bermed turnsand structures. I guess I'll have to break down and buy a dropper post too and learn how to use it...

  47. #147
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    You sound like me two years ago

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  48. #148
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    I read online that the XO-1 aftermarket cranks were carbon and the OEM XO-1 cranks were AL.

    Has anyone rec'd an XO-1 M6....if so can you confirm what the cranks are made of?

    Thanks...
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  49. #149
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    The OEM XO1 cranks are in fact alloy. Only the XX1 is carbon
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  50. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by kenbentit View Post
    The OEM XO1 cranks are in fact alloy. Only the XX1 is carbon
    Thanks
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  51. #151
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    The aftermarket XO-1 cranks are XX1 168Q cranks with different stickers and a different spider.

  52. #152
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    I have a Mach 6 with DT ITB Special edition wheels. Should I consider switching to Derby s?

  53. #153
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    If you have the money, carbon rims are good.

    You could use the hubs from the DT wheelset and lace them to the derby rims.
    Pivot mach 6!

  54. #154
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    Def carbon rims worth every penny, Im not about the bling, but having a carbon frame and riding carbon rims vs alloy rims is like comparing apples to oranges, I would rather have a great alloy frame with carbon rims than a carbon frame with alloy wheels, better balance almost a waste of a carbon frame advantages, that said its what fits the budget, but that question above becomes more relevant.

    Been 3 hard seasons now on Enve AMs and thought Id be a lifer, jumped, ridden the crap out of em everywhere to guided back country epics to hard Enduro races, but I recently saw some Derbys in person 40mm AM heavy duties, and was impressed by the tire profile, stability for sidewall and weight, price, seem legit so will be my next wheelset if I build an M6 for sure. Plenty of awesome peeps on here ripping the Derbys hard as well and only heard good things.

    Happy trails.

  55. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    Def carbon rims worth every penny, Im not about the bling, but having a carbon frame and riding carbon rims vs alloy rims is like comparing apples to oranges, I would rather have a great alloy frame with carbon rims than a carbon frame with alloy wheels, better balance almost a waste of a carbon frame advantages, that said its what fits the budget, but that question above becomes more relevant.

    Been 3 hard seasons now on Enve AMs and thought Id be a lifer, jumped, ridden the crap out of em everywhere to guided back country epics to hard Enduro races, but I recently saw some Derbys in person 40mm AM heavy duties, and was impressed by the tire profile, stability for sidewall and weight, price, seem legit so will be my next wheelset if I build an M6 for sure. Plenty of awesome peeps on here ripping the Derbys hard as well and only heard good things.

    Happy trails.
    Carbon rims....

    Pretty sure I'm in the minority, but I've not found carbon rims to be the "game changers" that most every one else suggests. (For example, I found moving my fork from a Revelation to the new Pike was definitely a game changer.)

    For years I've ridden Flows/Flow EXs on King hubs and they've been bombproof. However, they are a bit heavy and the carbon rims most importantly (to me) are usually wider. I have both Derby's and LB ( Light Bicycle, Chinese rims) rims in both 29" and 650b. You can feel the weight difference and it is nice. They are a bit wider than the Flow EXs and that is nice but not a huge difference.

    Stiffness between the Flows and carbons - can't say I feel a huge difference. This is where people are saying the carbon rims are so much better and I just don't see that much difference yet. Maybe if I went back to aluminum right after time on carbon I'd tell more difference.

    I've never killed a Stan's Flow or EX rim but in short order I've killed an LB carbon rim. I've heard the Derby's are made at the same factory by LB. That said the Derby's seem solid and it was only a one time thing with the LB rims - so not really knocking the products but I still feel an aluminum Flow is more durable. This is a big consideration in an expensive semi-disposable component.

    Where I think carbon makes the most difference is when you have a rider that likes a really wide rim and still wants to keep the wheel light and relatively stiff. That is why I'm using mostly carbon hoops, though still have aluminum that I like and use.

    The wheels that come on the stock M6 builds look pretty nice. If I did not already have good wheels I'd keep them, especially since the hubs are DT Swiss and 1x11 compatible. So, when my M6 gets here in a few days I'll put on my wheels set and take of the DT Swiss wheels and ebay them.

    Though I've not ridden the DT wheel set that comes on the M6, I'd suggest that unless you already have another preferred wheel set ready to replace the stock, stick with the DTs. Ride them 'til the rims die then build the hubs up on carbon hoops.

  56. #156
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    I noticed a big difference going from a Stan's Flow width rim to a Blunt 35 rim with a large 2.4" tire. The steering got much more precise with the better support to the tire on the wider rim.

    I've got some LB 35mm carbon rims here waiting to get built up. They are ~140g lighter per rim than the AL velocity rims in the same size/width. I'm keen to see if I notice any other benefits.

    I am pretty happy with how my current AL rims perform so if the weight savings is the only benefit that's fine by me.

    The LB rims come in at essentially double the price of the AL rims I was buying so definitely more $$, but not crazy talk. I haven't destroyed a rim in a long time so I'm not overly worried on that front.
    Safe riding,

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  57. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miker J View Post
    Carbon rims....

    Pretty sure I'm in the minority, but I've not found carbon rims to be the "game changers" that most every one else suggests. (For example, I found moving my fork from a Revelation to the new Pike was definitely a game changer.)

    For years I've ridden Flows/Flow EXs on King hubs and they've been bombproof. However, they are a bit heavy and the carbon rims most importantly (to me) are usually wider. I have both Derby's and LB ( Light Bicycle, Chinese rims) rims in both 29" and 650b. You can feel the weight difference and it is nice. They are a bit wider than the Flow EXs and that is nice but not a huge difference.

    Stiffness between the Flows and carbons - can't say I feel a huge difference. This is where people are saying the carbon rims are so much better and I just don't see that much difference yet. Maybe if I went back to aluminum right after time on carbon I'd tell more difference.

    I've never killed a Stan's Flow or EX rim but in short order I've killed an LB carbon rim. I've heard the Derby's are made at the same factory by LB. That said the Derby's seem solid and it was only a one time thing with the LB rims - so not really knocking the products but I still feel an aluminum Flow is more durable. This is a big consideration in an expensive semi-disposable component.

    Where I think carbon makes the most difference is when you have a rider that likes a really wide rim and still wants to keep the wheel light and relatively stiff. That is why I'm using mostly carbon hoops, though still have aluminum that I like and use.

    The wheels that come on the stock M6 builds look pretty nice. If I did not already have good wheels I'd keep them, especially since the hubs are DT Swiss and 1x11 compatible. So, when my M6 gets here in a few days I'll put on my wheels set and take of the DT Swiss wheels and ebay them.

    Though I've not ridden the DT wheel set that comes on the M6, I'd suggest that unless you already have another preferred wheel set ready to replace the stock, stick with the DTs. Ride them 'til the rims die then build the hubs up on carbon hoops.
    Fair call, for me though being a hard rider though smooth, stiffness and tracking in corners stability off jumps and acceleration were big gains especially stiffness and tracking.

    Ive built the best alloy DH wheel-sets money could allow in alloy always looking for stiffness and while for DH unless competing I would run alloy still, carbon rules for pure performance, if I was still competitive Id run Enve DH no question, but not for weekend warrior shite.

    I live on my trail bikes, its different, I have to be able to ride all day, enjoy my level still with no compromise when I do cut loose, also I ride with variety of riders, my setup keeps me in the game on all levels I can still blast down the DH track on my trail bike hit massive drops jumps, yet XC trail ride all day on same setup.

    LB yeah doesn't do it for me, Ive also heard that with Derby but its second hand heard from someone who's heard it I would love to have that confirmed, Ive only owned still run Enves, ridden Easton and why I said I was originally an Enve lifer, I thought like you, wouldn't waste the money I could see the benefit but cost always out weighed it until I rode some both Eastons and Enves for demo bad mistake, I could have picked up an Easton wheelset near half the price LBS demo set he was selling to go Enve.

    After demo I ponied up and brought King/Enve, Ive never thrashed a wheelset so hard over this many seasons and still have trust and more importantly continue to get performance, over this time they have paid for themselves over and over again and then some.

    Like carbon frames, carbon wheels are a extravagance they are not needed, not everyone should be riding them, if they cant justify ride performance.

    My go too rims are Stans EX and Hope hubs, I tell everyone and have got many people in to that same setup sans Hope hubs though, as they just don't warrant it, same with carbon frames, these guys rarely clean they're bikes, any maintenance I usually end up doing it for beer so most I rec Alloy frames and wheels but good reliable as high end but low and easy maintenance products, Stans, Hope, are easy to source, cost effective.

    M6 is a Ferrari and Humvie killer, just a shame to hold it back if contemplating it, otherwise Stans EXs are like you said probably best solution for most especially if you cant push the bike to its limits, this is where carbon on carbon is the litmus test vs alloy.

    Ive done this back country ride a few times, I usually don't feel as fresh at the end of an Epic like that, especially over some XC crew 29ers and where I was on a slack true 160mm bike over 4-5hrs up and down and around over 1400m single track climbing, this was not Enduro or DH, though dam awesome, bike wheels were killer. 3 seasons old my set of Enves.

    Ditched the King hubs, Hope up front DT 240 rear mainly as I was an early adopter of XX1, King still don't do an XX1 driver compatible hub body, Ill always run a King headset, hubs last set, still great but not better anymore than the rest and still very pricey, no performance gain they're anymore, innovate or die!


    I cant speak for Derby, Ive only seen one set, this rider likes the best and he is trying Derbies on his M6 I was just impressed by weight and tire profile.

    It just hard maybe impossible to go back once you've gone they're, same with frames, ask yourself would you prefer to go back to an alloy frame?

    They are still great and for some applications still best, but not in this category sans M6.

    happy trails,

    Ill leave others to make up own mind, everyones experience is different, they're is no right or wrong here, many great wheels can be built now a days, just like frames, you don't need to buy the most expensive frames wheels either to be on the money for performance.

  58. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverick005 View Post
    Fair call, for me though being a hard rider though smooth, stiffness and tracking in corners stability off jumps and acceleration were big gains especially stiffness and tracking.

    Ive built the best alloy DH wheel-sets money could allow in alloy always looking for stiffness and while for DH unless competing I would run alloy still, carbon rules for pure performance, if I was still competitive Id run Enve DH no question, but not for weekend warrior shite.

    I live on my trail bikes, its different, I have to be able to ride all day, enjoy my level still with no compromise when I do cut loose, also I ride with variety of riders, my setup keeps me in the game on all levels I can still blast down the DH track on my trail bike hit massive drops jumps, yet XC trail ride all day on same setup.

    LB yeah doesn't do it for me, Ive also heard that with Derby but its second hand heard from someone who's heard it I would love to have that confirmed, Ive only owned still run Enves, ridden Easton and why I said I was originally an Enve lifer, I thought like you, wouldn't waste the money I could see the benefit but cost always out weighed it until I rode some both Eastons and Enves for demo bad mistake, I could have picked up an Easton wheelset near half the price LBS demo set he was selling to go Enve.

    After demo I ponied up and brought King/Enve, Ive never thrashed a wheelset so hard over this many seasons and still have trust and more importantly continue to get performance, over this time they have paid for themselves over and over again and then some.

    Like carbon frames, carbon wheels are a extravagance they are not needed, not everyone should be riding them, if they cant justify ride performance.

    My go too rims are Stans EX and Hope hubs, I tell everyone and have got many people in to that same setup sans Hope hubs though, as they just don't warrant it, same with carbon frames, these guys rarely clean they're bikes, any maintenance I usually end up doing it for beer so most I rec Alloy frames and wheels but good reliable as high end but low and easy maintenance products, Stans, Hope, are easy to source, cost effective.

    M6 is a Ferrari and Humvie killer, just a shame to hold it back if contemplating it, otherwise Stans EXs are like you said probably best solution for most especially if you cant push the bike to its limits, this is where carbon on carbon is the litmus test vs alloy.

    Ive done this back country ride a few times, I usually don't feel as fresh at the end of an Epic like that, especially over some XC crew 29ers and where I was on a slack true 160mm bike over 4-5hrs up and down and around over 1400m single track climbing, this was not Enduro or DH, though dam awesome, bike wheels were killer. 3 seasons old my set of Enves.

    Ditched the King hubs, Hope up front DT 240 rear mainly as I was an early adopter of XX1, King still don't do an XX1 driver compatible hub body, Ill always run a King headset, hubs last set, still great but not better anymore than the rest and still very pricey, no performance gain they're anymore, innovate or die!


    I cant speak for Derby, Ive only seen one set, this rider likes the best and he is trying Derbies on his M6 I was just impressed by weight and tire profile.

    It just hard maybe impossible to go back once you've gone they're, same with frames, ask yourself would you prefer to go back to an alloy frame?

    They are still great and for some applications still best, but not in this category sans M6.

    happy trails,

    Ill leave others to make up own mind, everyones experience is different, they're is no right or wrong here, many great wheels can be built now a days, just like frames, you don't need to buy the most expensive frames wheels either to be on the money for performance.
    Cool. Really good info for the thread.

    What happened when I replied in my post was I responded to your post, but it wasn't directed at you to be disagreeable - it was really responding to the earlier post about the wheels. Either way these are all great views on the topic.

    Also, don't get me wrong, I definitely think carbon hoops are better and they do make a noticeable difference - just not as much as most say, IMO. And the price is steep.

    If I had some more spare cash I'd do the Enve rims for sure, and you make a good point about frames. Both of my main trail bikes are carbon.

    I too am disappointed by the King hub issue and 1x11 compatibility and have spoken to them about this more than once (not like that really matters).

  59. #159
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    Great info guys, Thanks. I am in my 50's and my son just got me into riding in the past few years. The Mach 6 is an awesome bike and it sounds like I should have built it with carbon rims.
    Anyone know the weight on the stock DT ITB Spec Ed's? I couldn't find them. Would like to know the weight difference to the Derby.

  60. #160
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    I actually got to put in 500 miles on a set of Reynolds AM carbon tubeless wheels during early testing and the extra stiffness of the rims is the real deal. I had one ride where I clipped a rock on a fast descent and broke 3 spokes on the drive side, in sequence. There was no way to do a trailside repair so I decided to ride it out and see what happened, it was for testing after all. I rode 9 miles of rocky trail at South Mtn (Phoenix) and the wheel was maybe 2mm out of dead true when I finished the ride. That's a true testament to the stiffness of a well built carbon rim in my book. The weight wasn't really much different than the Stan's Flows I normally run and I'd be really scared about nailing one on a rock with a flat tire but if you want absolute stiffness they're a great option.
    Desert Sunset Calls/Upward, Pain, Perseverance/Welcome Solitude

  61. #161
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    Definitely worth the $$. I have both Easton and Derby carbon rims and I am a believer in the Derby's. You will notice the difference as increased confidence when it gets steep and rough or in hard corners. The bike becomes much more predictable in line choices and feels much more stable overall. Took me a while to figure out what the difference was when I put alloy wheels on one of my bikes for a few months. It was a night and day difference in those situations. On more normal XCish rides I didn't really notice a difference except for the weight.

  62. #162
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    Question for the single ring M6 owners...are you using any bash protection?

    I could care less about the chainring...my concern would be the underside of the BB...much more expensive to fix!
    Safe riding,

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  63. #163
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    I am not using anything

  64. #164
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    Of course,have nasty rock BB and chainring killers in my neck of the woods.I run XT triple with MRP bash guard replacing the big ring with a 38-28 chainrings.

  65. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by techfersure View Post
    Of course,have nasty rock BB and chainring killers in my neck of the woods.I run XT triple with MRP bash guard replacing the big ring with a 38-28 chainrings.


    Ya we do as well. I have this MRP guide/bash spare in my parts bin at the moment. I hate to add the weight to a XX1 build, but I'd hate worse to post pics of a broken carbon frame...



    For $50 I can have one of these MRP XCG bashguards which is all I really need.
    Safe riding,

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  66. #166
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    Mach 6 Review Thread

    We have a lot of rocks and downed trees in our neck of the woods - amg on the HD and mini g2 sl on the chilcotin. Most concerned about the rock strikes versus the chain retention.


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  67. #167
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    Yes and the pulley causes drag all my friends take them off,but when I go single will use MRP XCG bash.

  68. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by techfersure View Post
    Yes and the pulley causes drag all my friends take them off,but when I go single will use MRP XCG bash.
    The XCG is available in 36T, 40T and 44T sizes. They need a 30T size for the new XX1 setups.
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  69. #169
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    Mach 6 Review Thread

    Vik lots of people cut the top off a amg. My xx1 front ring is 32. I believe my amg is for 28-32 teeth rings.


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  70. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilks View Post
    Vik lots of people cut the top off a amg. My xx1 front ring is 32. I believe my amg is for 28-32 teeth rings.
    +1 - I have thought about cutting up my MRP G2. I don't need the top guide or the roller. I may do that if a better solution doesn't present itself between now and when I build up the new bike.
    Safe riding,

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  71. #171
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    I cannot imagine where you must live to use a 30t ring only,other then can't have much or any flow lines,I mostly stay in my 38t once you get used to it it is very efficient even climbing some fairly steep climbs and attacking very SS like in which you need to your pace and spin look ahead to read terrain,but have a 28t small when either hammered or really steep techy climbs.

  72. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by techfersure View Post
    I cannot imagine where you must live to use a 30t ring only,other then can't have much or any flow lines,I mostly stay in my 38t once you get used to it it is very efficient even climbing some fairly steep climbs and attacking very SS like in which you need to your pace and spin look ahead to read terrain,but have a 28t small when either hammered or really steep techy climbs.
    Welcome to my world of tight techy deep forest riding in BC.

    It's either crazy steep and techy up or crazy steep and techy down. It's always tight and twisty. I rarely pedal headed down, but 30T x 11T is as much top end as I need.

    Once in Moab on the Whole Enchilada I opened her up and actually ran out of gears with a 32T ring up front. I'm okay with that. I don't set up my bike for 2% of my riding.
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  73. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Question for the single ring M6 owners...are you using any bash protection?
    I'm using the NSB bash+spider. We have lots of limestone rock/ledges that can make short work of $$ chainrings.

    The Wolf tooth ring+bash looks interesting too.

    Robert

  74. #174
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    I have the MRP XCG bash on my 30T. Waste 3/4" of Clearance cause made for 34T. Bent on my first ride! Looking to find way to reduce it or go with robertj suggestion.Mach 6 Review Thread-bash-guard-side.jpgMach 6 Review Thread-bash-guard-front.jpg

  75. #175
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    Ya the XCB is too big for a small XX1/XO1 ring. I'm thinking of cutting up my MRP G2 so I just keep the lower taco bash guard.
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  76. #176
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    Check out the blackspire bruiser. It's a bash only and fits 26-32 tooth 1x11 specifically. Or go with a wolftooth direct mount chainring that has a specific bolt on bash. However, the wolftooth is more light duty.

  77. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Overhillthruthewoods View Post
    Check out the blackspire bruiser. It's a bash only and fits 26-32 tooth 1x11 specifically. Or go with a wolftooth direct mount chainring that has a specific bolt on bash. However, the wolftooth is more light duty.


    Perfect. Exactly what I was looking for. I knew somebody had a great solution I wasn't aware of.

    Thank you.

    Made in Canada even. Couldn't be better.

    2 BS Bruisers ordered...
    Last edited by vikb; 02-11-2014 at 07:28 AM.
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  78. #178
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    Mountain Racing Products home of MRP, White Brothers, Kreitler, Tamer, and Power Grips | AMGMRP AMG is designed for this purpose no cutting and should be no spacing issues, both ISCG options and BB mount.

  79. #179
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    Going to order some Derby Carbon rims. Any advice on STANDARD OR HEAVY DUTY LAYUP?

  80. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cape Codder View Post
    Going to order some Derby Carbon rims. Any advice on STANDARD OR HEAVY DUTY LAYUP?
    We need more info:

    - weight?
    - terrain you ride in?
    - how aggressive are you?
    - finesse rider or sledgehammer style?
    - what rims have you used recently and how are they holding up?
    Safe riding,

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  81. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post


    Perfect. Exactly what I was looking for. I knew somebody had a great solution I wasn't aware of.

    Thank you.

    Made in Canada even. Couldn't be better.

    2 BS Bruisers ordered...
    Rec'd my BS Bruisers. 2 day turnaround in Canada.

    Looks great. Nicest looking bashguard I have owned. Should look right at home with XX1. Minimal, but functional.

    Weight is 75g for bash and 14g for hardware assuming you use all of it.

    Thanks again for the suggestion.
    Safe riding,

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  82. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    We need more info:

    - weight?
    - terrain you ride in?
    - how aggressive are you?
    - finesse rider or sledgehammer style?
    - what rims have you used recently and how are they holding up?
    For my son 26 Year old, SC TallBoy LT
    230 lbs Riding weight
    Varied terrain, XC somedays, rocky tech stuff somedays, small jumps and drops.
    He likes to push it more on the aggressive side. That's why I bought a M6 - to keep up!
    We do trips to all types of terrain. Probably do some more ski-lift access downhill this year. (He rented bike for downhill last year)
    Currently on WTB ST I23 rims. Some dings and scratches. Lots of scuffs and EXO showing thru on tire sidewalls.

    With all the sidewall marks along with new wider derby rims thought the rims might be seeing more rocks so thinking HD might be way to go.

  83. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cape Codder View Post
    For my son 26 Year old, SC TallBoy LT
    230 lbs Riding weight
    Varied terrain, XC somedays, rocky tech stuff somedays, small jumps and drops.
    He likes to push it more on the aggressive side. That's why I bought a M6 - to keep up!
    We do trips to all types of terrain. Probably do some more ski-lift access downhill this year. (He rented bike for downhill last year)
    Currently on WTB ST I23 rims. Some dings and scratches. Lots of scuffs and EXO showing thru on tire sidewalls.

    With all the sidewall marks along with new wider derby rims thought the rims might be seeing more rocks so thinking HD might be way to go.
    Well if you are buying him the rims get the HD version because not having to buy another set out weighs any performance difference and he sounds like he's strong enough that it won't hold him back.

    If he's buying them it comes down to what matters more to him $$ or performance. If he's doing okay with the WTB ST I23's than he'll be okay on the standard Derby's. The HD version gives him a some added robustness with a small weight penalty.
    Safe riding,

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  84. #184
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    Thanks for info and sorry for going a little off thread however i figured this was related as it is Mach 6 collateral damage. Looks like we will go with Standard Duty Derby.

  85. #185
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikb View Post
    Rec'd my BS Bruisers. 2 day turnaround in Canada.

    Looks great. Nicest looking bashguard I have owned. Should look right at home with XX1. Minimal, but functional.

    Weight is 75g for bash and 14g for hardware assuming you use all of it.

    Thanks again for the suggestion.
    The pic shows that it's for 32-38T, but Overhillthruthewoods post said it was for 26-32T. I run a 34T ring currently, which Bruiser did you get?

  86. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by turfnsurf View Post
    The pic shows that it's for 32-38T, but Overhillthruthewoods post said it was for 26-32T. I run a 34T ring currently, which Bruiser did you get?
    I got the smaller version. That pic was just grabbed off Google to illustrate the post. Buy the version that works with the chain ring size you plan on running.
    Safe riding,

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  87. #187
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    Got to demo a Mach 6 yesterday. I am 5' 10.5", so a bit of a tweener in sizes. Rode a large with a 60 stem. Think that's probably best for me but I think I could ride Med or Large comfortably. Loved the bike. As expected, it destroyed the descents and was very playful popping off of rocks and hitting small jumps. I am putting a Pike on there, so didn't tinker with the Fox 34 much. Seemed to do well just leaving it in Descend mode. Very fun bike, which is exactly what I was looking for.

    Was worried that the front end would wander more on climbs than my 429, but there were no issues. The demos had a dual XT setup and it climbed very well with the 38 tooth big ring, but a lot more bob with the 24 tooth granny. I didn't notice a difference between "Trail" and "Descend" on the Fox Float X. It was decked out with 2.35 High Rollers, which didn't do it any favors in the climbing category either. Planning on getting the XO1 build, so guessing the pedal bob will be somewhere in the middle of the 38 and 24 XT setup? Thinking that the stock 30 tooth with XO1 is a bit too small and that 32 (maybe 34?) would be a better match. What are others running? Any way, came away pretty impressed and will be ordering one later this week.

  88. #188
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    Just posting the MTBR M6 review link in this thread for completeness: Compare-O Bottom Line: Pivot shoots for Holy Grail status with new Mach 6 Carbon | Mountain Bike Review
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  89. #189
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    SA by itself does not matter and one can't really make a conclusion about the bike just looking at SA.
    If 2 different bikes have the seat, BB and Handlebars in the same position, only the SA is different and everything else is identical, the bikes will handle exactly the same.
    If you can het the seat in a proper position on the bike, doesn't matter what the SA is.
    SA is in this case irrelevant.
    Last edited by jazzanova; 03-16-2014 at 04:04 PM.

  90. #190
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    Mach 6 Review Thread

    But you can't have the same positions on a bike with angles and measurements far off from each other.
    The M6 has a very short reach and top tube length is only long enough because of the slack SA. Most modern bikes have a much steeper SA but longer reach. So you have much more room to work with your body when standing in the bike going downhill.
    That is also were modern DH bike geometry is going to.




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  91. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
    Most modern bikes have a much steeper SA but longer reach. So you have much more room to work with your body when standing in the bike going downhill.
    That is also were modern DH bike geometry is going to.
    All reports are the M6 goes downhill pretty well despite the handicap of the slack STA.
    Safe riding,

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  92. #192
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    Slide the seat forward 3/4" on the rails and its like you are on a 73 degree STA. I agree that it's a non-issue. Not so easy to fix something like a head tube angle that's not to your liking.

  93. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadmcmichael View Post
    Got to demo a Mach 6 yesterday. I am 5' 10.5", so a bit of a tweener in sizes. Rode a large with a 60 stem. Think that's probably best for me but I think I could ride Med or Large comfortably. Loved the bike. As expected, it destroyed the descents and was very playful popping off of rocks and hitting small jumps. I am putting a Pike on there, so didn't tinker with the Fox 34 much. Seemed to do well just leaving it in Descend mode. Very fun bike, which is exactly what I was looking for.

    Was worried that the front end would wander more on climbs than my 429, but there were no issues. The demos had a dual XT setup and it climbed very well with the 38 tooth big ring, but a lot more bob with the 24 tooth granny. I didn't notice a difference between "Trail" and "Descend" on the Fox Float X. It was decked out with 2.35 High Rollers, which didn't do it any favors in the climbing category either. Planning on getting the XO1 build, so guessing the pedal bob will be somewhere in the middle of the 38 and 24 XT setup? Thinking that the stock 30 tooth with XO1 is a bit too small and that 32 (maybe 34?) would be a better match. What are others running? Any way, came away pretty impressed and will be ordering one later this week.
    I'm running a Medium M6 XO1 build with a 30 tooth. In AZ, I sometimes wish I had a 28 as many of our climbs are quite steep. When the Float X and Pike are set to the right pressure, there is very little bob when pedaling. In fact, I can pedal very effectively out of the saddle. This is something I could never do well on my Firebird.

  94. #194
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    Thats funny. I have no problem pedaling out of the saddle on mine, but I usually can make the climbs without extended out if the saddle rum\ns. I ridden all thre ttrails in Tucson on my Firebird, I think I would stilll take it over the M6 for the roughset trails

  95. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fadl View Post
    But you can't have the same positions on a bike with angles and measurements far off from each other.
    The M6 has a very short reach and top tube length is only long enough because of the slack SA.
    This is the key point, which Jazznova's "STA is irrelevant" posts seem to miss. I came to the M6 from a Bronson. These have similar effective top tube lengths at a given size, but the Bronson has a steeper STA and longer reach. With the same stem length, standing up on the M6 puts you closer to the bars. This is actually somewhat noticeable on flatter terrain; with the M6 I find I need to bend a bit more at the hips when standing up. But on steep downhill I like the M6 better for this reason, no terrain seems too steep. I love the M6, but the different geometry is noticeable. Not bad, but different.

  96. #196
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    Yes, reach is the better measure of the length of a bike than TT which the STA affects. BTW this bike slays everything and is so much fun everywhere. Just awesome.

  97. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by tadmcmichael View Post
    Got to demo a Mach 6 yesterday. I am 5' 10.5", so a bit of a tweener in sizes. Rode a large with a 60 stem. Think that's probably best for me but I think I could ride Med or Large comfortably. Loved the bike. As expected, it destroyed the descents and was very playful popping off of rocks and hitting small jumps. I am putting a Pike on there, so didn't tinker with the Fox 34 much. Seemed to do well just leaving it in Descend mode. Very fun bike, which is exactly what I was looking for.

    Was worried that the front end would wander more on climbs than my 429, but there were no issues. The demos had a dual XT setup and it climbed very well with the 38 tooth big ring, but a lot more bob with the 24 tooth granny. I didn't notice a difference between "Trail" and "Descend" on the Fox Float X. It was decked out with 2.35 High Rollers, which didn't do it any favors in the climbing category either. Planning on getting the XO1 build, so guessing the pedal bob will be somewhere in the middle of the 38 and 24 XT setup? Thinking that the stock 30 tooth with XO1 is a bit too small and that 32 (maybe 34?) would be a better match. What are others running? Any way, came away pretty impressed and will be ordering one later this week.
    I'm running a 34t chainring on my x01 setup. Initially I thought I'd swap it out for a 32 or 30, but the bike climbs anything, I sometimes need to move my ass up to the nose of the seats on steeps. Actually might consider a 36 for racing.

  98. #198
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    I've read a bunch of M6 reviews that say the bike is stiff burly trail destroyer and a few that say it's flexy. Just wondering what your thoughts on that question are? Is there some noticeable flex when pushed hard into corners or is that an issue with some builds - say the wheels?
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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    All I've got to say is "Derby Carbon Rims". 35mm internal does not allow the tire to roll of the rim like say an arch would. In turn this bike feels really stiff. I am guessing the back end of my HD is stiffer. But then again it's hard to compare because the Mach has the derby's on them. Those Derby's are a game changer. You almost have to adjust your riding style.
    Last edited by alwayslivingthedream; 03-18-2014 at 10:31 AM.

  100. #200
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    +1 - My steering precision improved dramatically when I went from narrow AM rims with 2.5" tires to Velocity Blunt 35 rims with the same tires.



    I have some LB 35mm wide rims [30mm internal] ready for my new bike. I'm going to run 2.35" tires on it so the steering should be very nice.
    Safe riding,

    Vik
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