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  1. #1
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    Any plans for split pivot?

    It struck me recently that with the success of Pivot's implementation of Dave Weagle's DW-Link suspension design, does Pivot have any plans to implement his Split Pivot design in a future bike? I'm not hearing much about Split Pivot....are there by chance patent issues with Trek's ABP design? Or has Pivot played with split pivot designs and decided that DW-Link is superior? Just curious....

  2. #2
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    I should have used the Google machine before posting here. DW was awarded a patent for his split pivot design in 2007, so that's not an issue. Apparently it is easier and cheaper to manufacture than DW-Link. My guess is that Pivot has chosen to stick with DW-Link. That would be fine by me, they certainly have it dialed in!

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by golden boy View Post
    I should have used the Google machine before posting here. DW was awarded a patent for his split pivot design in 2007, so that's not an issue. Apparently it is easier and cheaper to manufacture than DW-Link. My guess is that Pivot has chosen to stick with DW-Link. That would be fine by me, they certainly have it dialed in!
    Quite the opposite. dw-link is more expensive to build, and hold tolerances than the split pivot designs.

    The dw-link is the more efficient system from Dave Weagle. Both work great, and can be tuned to function well in all different situations. dw-link is still the most versatile and efficient in pedaling, climbing and sprinting - weather you are seated or standing while pedaling.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    Quite the opposite. dw-link is more expensive to build, and hold tolerances than the split pivot
    but that's what the OP said? or am I confused again?
    i need to develop my crashing skills...

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    Quote Originally Posted by dog View Post
    but that's what the OP said? or am I confused again?
    The OP said that the split pivot design was more expensive to make. I was correcting him with my comments...
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  6. #6
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    Actually I read somewere (maybe Mountain Bike Action) that they were not to impressed the split pivot design. I beleive it was on a Devinci bike review... anyway they said that the DW link had better anti pedal bob caracteristics. I havent tried any bikes with the split pivot design so I cant personally give my opinion.
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  7. #7
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    Actually the OP was correct in stating that the Split is less expensive than the DW. "Apparently it is easier and cheaper to manufacture than DW-Link". Dan still has jetlag from his "vacation" in Europe
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  8. #8
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    DW-Link is focused at canceling out pedaling forces (pedal bob or squat) From Patent: ...suspension system of the invention is capable of lowering energy loss resulting from squat by producing an anti-squat response."

    Split Pivot is about canceling out braking forces (brake jack) From Patent: "...link arrangement to control suspension movement by manipulating braking forces present in the link during decelration."

    So each link system has its applications. I don't see Pivot using a Split Pivot design for most of their bikes though.

    DW-Link Patent: Patent US7128329 - Vehicle suspension systems - Google Patents

    Split Pivot Patent: Patent US7717212 - Vehicle suspension systems for seperated acceleration responses - Google Patents
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  9. #9
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    MBA not impressed?!? Whoa....

    Ken, thanks for correcting the corrector. Apparently Dan isn't "whethering" the jetlag very well.

    Paul, thanks for the patent links.

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  11. #11
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    BH Bikes have a Split Pivot system, so I'd guess that given the relationship between the two, if they were going to do anything, it would be to bring in the BH Split-Pivots rather than design their own...

    I know that my LBS here in Aus, being both a Pivot & BH dealer, will be getting the BH 650b model in when it's available

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    It would be pretty cool if Pivot did a less expensive 187mm travel bike park frame with split pivot.
    "It looks flexy"

  13. #13
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    Hi guys,

    First time in a while for me posting!

    There are some new Split Pivot models coming soon, for example the new Morewood bikes using my design, and the BH 27.5" wheeled bike just launched at Eurobike, and there will be more options next year as well.

    I can't let the cat out of the bag with Pivot, but we are always working on new dw-link Pivot frames. Did you see the Mach4 carbon?!! That thing is one heck of a ride, seriously. I've been on a test mule for what seems like an eternity and it has amassed hundreds of miles beyond what I needed to do for damper tuning and spec. I really enjoy that bike.

    Whether it's dw-link, Split Pivot, or Delta, I put the same attention to detail and years of experience behind every bike that I design. I think that coupled with the unique tastes of my partners we have been able to develop a really wide range of products to suit the even wider range of riding styles, and riding preferences out there. A properly set up test ride is always the key to getting a feel for what works for any rider.

    Take care,

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  14. #14
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    Mach4 carbon? Haven't heard about that one. I'm waiting for the 650b version.

    Keep up the great work, Dave!

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    Yeah, not even a Google search shows any rumors or test mule pics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by _dw View Post
    Did you see the Mach4 carbon?!! That thing is one heck of a ride, seriously. I've been on a test mule for what seems like an eternity and it has amassed hundreds of miles beyond what I needed to do for damper tuning and spec. I really enjoy that bike.
    Dave meant Mach 429 Carbon!
    There is no Mach 4 Carbon...
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    Dave meant Mach 429 Carbon!
    There is no Mach 4 Carbon...
    DW, how is the 429c on the east coast? The Bottom Bracket seems low for trail riding in the rocks.
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  18. #18
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    Split pivot design is just a single pivot with no advantage over older seatstay pivot ("faux bar" although I hate that term) bikes.
    (Yikes)

    Not that there is anything wrong with bikes like that if they are tuned right, but split pivot just looks like an over complication with no benefit.

    And that marketing BS about how a pivot at the axle has magical properties compared to a pivot an inch above or an inch forward of the axle is just gobbildy goook.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowdrifter View Post
    DW, how is the 429c on the east coast? The Bottom Bracket seems low for trail riding in the rocks.
    There is no need to be confused.

    Mach 429 Alloy with 120 fork has a BBH of 13.10
    Mach 429 Carbon with 120 fork has a BBH of 13.00

    Not sure a tenth of an inch is going to cause you any problems on the rocks on the east coast. We have ZERO problems on the rocks in the desert.

    Trust that skilled riders have tested and spent hundreds of hours on this geometry, and ridden it on gnarly trails in Moab, Fruita, not to mention our own back yard in Phoenix.
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  20. #20
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    Weagle sues Trek over suspension patent

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  21. #21
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    I'd love to see the judge throw out that case. I'm sick of all these completely obvious variations on a simple mechanical device getting awarded patents when there is absolutely nothing novel about them.
    I really think that is the proper outcome. Who was first? Doesn't matter because its not a patentable design. Case closed now GTFO.

  22. #22
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    Just curious, I wonder why split pivot doesn't fall under the horst link patent, I believe now owned by Specialized? I guess moving the pivot 20mm to the hub center is enough to make the difference?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    Just curious, I wonder why split pivot doesn't fall under the horst link patent, I believe now owned by Specialized? I guess moving the pivot 20mm to the hub center is enough to make the difference?
    The math is a bit complicated, but its moves the forces from the frame (horst link is on the chainstay) and moves them to the axle. This dramatically changes how the forces react with frame, and more importantly how the those forces get translated into the shock.

    So its not really that its 20mm apart, its that the pivot is the axle, vs away from the axle.
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  24. #24
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    Specialized's FSR patent is very specific so it leaves a lot of leeway, thats why companies like Ellsworth dont pay royalties to Spec.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulrb02 View Post
    The math is a bit complicated, but its moves the forces from the frame (horst link is on the chainstay) and moves them to the axle. This dramatically changes how the forces react with frame, and more importantly how the those forces get translated into the shock.

    So its not really that its 20mm apart, its that the pivot is the axle, vs away from the axle.
    Yes, seriously, there's a world of difference between the pivot being on the chainstay, or seatstay, or at the axle. Horst-link allows for a slightly different wheel-path, and does a pretty good job of isolating brake forces from the suspension, that is it's main benefit, not isolating pedaling forces from the suspension obviously, or spec never would have needed to come up with the brain. The faux-bar has the same wheel path as a single pivot, and doesn't do much if anything to isolate braking forces but allows some tuning of leverage rates, with the added bonus that some people won't notice the difference between the two and will figure they're both the same. The split-pivot obviously will have the same wheel path as a single pivot with the same main pivot location, but one could see how it could allow for the isolation of the braking forces. Pedaling response for faux-bars and split-pivots will have more to do with the location of the main pivot and leverage rates, shock setup and platform, than whether they are split or faux, at least in a general sense. So I would say split-pivot adds isolation of braking forces over a faux, but other traits depend on the skill of the suspension designer. Split-pivot has the benefit of DW's knowledge and experience, whereas you don't know how much thought was put into pivot placement on many faux-bars, so I would count that as a big plus for split-pivot.
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  26. #26
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    You say a lot of things I agree with DLd, but here are some of my comments:

    Quote Originally Posted by DLd View Post
    Horst-link allows for a slightly different wheel-path, and does a pretty good job of isolating brake forces from the suspension, that is it's main benefit, not isolating pedaling forces from the suspension obviously, or spec never would have needed to come up with the brain.
    Many bikes come with platform shocks. The brain technology isnt a knock on horst link design, .
    The split-pivot obviously will have the same wheel path as a single pivot with the same main pivot location,
    yes


    but one could see how it could allow for the isolation of the braking forces.
    I can't see it.

    Pedaling response for faux-bars and split-pivots will have more to do with the location of the main pivot and leverage rates, shock setup and platform, than whether they are split or faux, at least in a general sense.
    Yes.

    So I would say split-pivot adds isolation of braking forces over a faux,
    How?

    I guess my main issue with split pivot is that the brake isolation claim isn't credible to me. I haven't seen any detailed analysis that would explain it.

    That's not so much a knock on split pivot, because even if it performs similar to a faux bar, its still a perfectly viable design.

  27. #27
    DLd
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    Quote Originally Posted by smilinsteve View Post
    I guess my main issue with split pivot is that the brake isolation claim isn't credible to me. I haven't seen any detailed analysis that would explain it.

    That's not so much a knock on split pivot, because even if it performs similar to a faux bar, its still a perfectly viable design.
    Well, just as with Horst link (and DW link for that matter), split pivot has a pivot between the brake location and the main pivot. This allows the main pivot to be isolated from the braking forces. On a faux bar (had to run out to the garage and take a look at my Transition to make sure I wasn't talking out my ass) the pivot is above the brakes, so the brakes have a rigid connection to the main pivot. Now, when you are using the brakes, the brakes are applying a force on the wheel and so the wheel is also applying a torque into the main pivot. Depending on the main pivot location, this could result in brake jack, or brake squat, or be relatively neutral. However as the wheel moves through its travel, it will encounter one of these to a greater degree. The pivot location to make braking neutral to the suspension at normal sag might not be the best location to neutralize pedaling forces on the suspension, so there will be a tradeoff based on the desired riding characteristics. By placing a pivot between the brakes and the main pivot, this allows the braking force to act about the intermediate pivot, reducing or eliminating the effect of the braking forces on the main pivot action (probably not eliminated entirely, but there will be a greater degree of freedom within which they will be reduced, with noticeable interaction restricted to the extremes of travel, in a good design)

    You are correct that many other designs use platforms. I was just noting that the original intent of the Horst link was to isolate the braking forces from the suspension, what was then termed an "active" design, not to isolate pedaling forces. Many I've tried have been very active and responsive, which is a good thing relative to soaking up bumps, but that same active feeling has also extended to their reaction to pedaling forces. A designer still has quite a bit of freedom to emphasize various traits with a Horst link. Specialized seems to rely on a more rigid platform, ie. Brain, than many others to achieve satisfactory pedaling performance, IME.

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    Last edited by DLd; 10-04-2012 at 11:09 AM.
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  28. #28
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    Oh noes, neg rep for my question!? That was a legitimate question dangit, especially when we have stuff like SC suing Yeti for a design with a completely different linkage, and a wheel path that is as at least as different from VPP as VPP is from Dw...

    Anyways Paul thanks for explanation, I'd love to see that on paper if there is anything published, I haven't done statics in a while but I could probably grasp it.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ddprocter View Post
    Oh noes, neg rep for my question!? That was a legitimate question dangit, especially when we have stuff like SC suing Yeti for a design with a completely different linkage, and a wheel path that is as at least as different from VPP as VPP is from Dw...

    Anyways Paul thanks for explanation, I'd love to see that on paper if there is anything published, I haven't done statics in a while but I could probably grasp it.
    Patents get really weird, and its not always about the linkage. the DW link patent isn't about having a virtual pivot point (the twin bar suspension links) it is about how they place those suspension links in relation to the chain, I haven't looked through the other patents, but its probably something like that.

    The reasons why the forces play out like that is upper physics. They just told us to reference the the diagram and trust that it is true, I think you can have a whole semester on you proving why the forces play out like they do. http://www.mpcfaculty.net/tom_rebold/ENGR8/SDC10893.JPG
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  30. #30
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    Split pivot is kind of pointless. It's value is probably more in the marketing and the ability to confuse the public and say "this split pivot is the new awesome thing".

    In reality the split pivot is just an over-complicated work-around of the Horst link (which Specialized owns, so they can't use without paying$$) Think about it. If Trek used a simple Horst link on, say, it's Remedy, nothing changes. In fact, it would look almost exactly like the 2010 Specialized Safire:
    *webwebweb.specialized.com/us/en/bikes/archive/2010/safire
    And, in actual fact, it makes the design far simpler. You don't have to have complicated concentric pivots, so you can make your bike far more stiff.

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