Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: 650b Mach 5?

  1. #1
    Not just famous; infamous
    Reputation: coolhandluchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,073

    650b Mach 5?

    I think I already know the answer, but does anyone know if a 650b wheel (and tire obviously) will clear the M5 rear triangle? Would like to try it out, but don't have access to that funky wheel size.

  2. #2
    Paterfamilias
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    402
    The Fact that FOX will not reccomend the use of their forks with a 650b- be-it 26" or 29" forks, also helps you figure out what our position would be on the issue too...

    I've been at the Taipei Bike show this week, and every wheel manufacturer I've talked to, and fork manufacturer feels 650b is dead - great idea, perfect for the Portlandia frame maker crowd - not something the industry is really supporting - sorry to be the downer on this one.
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
    Jack Handy

  3. #3
    www.derbyrims.com
    Reputation: derby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    6,788
    My well worn out 2.3 Neo-moto 650b had no more than 2mm clearance in a Mach 5. The XC race 650b Quasi-moto 2.0 might clear the Mach 5 OK. IMO, the very small knob Quasi-moto is really not enough tire for the rocky trail hit capability of the Mach 5. It appears the 5.7 has less clearance.

    A newer 2.3 Neo-moto did easily fit the Firebird, with plenty if clearance to spare including bottom travel seat tube clearance. The Neo-moto, and Nevegal 2.35 and all 650b tires are pretty light, fine for trail and moderate AM uses but not really durable enough for the capable limits of the Firebird.

    The long economic depression has slowed the momentum of the rise in 650b frame design. Previously the trend was growing many times faster than the 29'er trend was doing 10+ years ago. It is inevitable the 650b size will continue to grow in use, simply because it works so well and many 26 inch bikes and forks clear them safely already, enabling early adapters to try 650b pretty easily.

  4. #4
    Not just famous; infamous
    Reputation: coolhandluchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,073
    Thanks for the replies. I figured it would be a tight fit (if at all) for the rear tire. It seemed like an interesting idea, since I've never taken a shine to 29ers. I doubt the tire would clear the seat tube at bottom-out anyway. The number of 650b products appears to be dwindling, which is sad, since a lightweight 120mm travel 650b would rule the endurance racing circuit out here in CO, despite the lack of tires.

    Until Fox puts a 20mm axle on their lighter forks (probably never) I'll continue using my RockShox. I have a Pike, which from what I've read, should clear the bigger tire. But, if the rear won't fit, it's a no-go anyway.

    But I wouldn't want to raise the BB again anyway...I've worked too hard to lower it.

  5. #5
    nothing relevant to say
    Reputation: Cracked Headtube's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    1,346
    CoolHand, do you know Eric Baar or Ground Up Designs? He has a 650B wheel set in the ways of a geared QR set. Maybe contact him and see if you can stop by his shop to test your Pivot.

  6. #6
    Paterfamilias
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    402
    I doubt FOX will ever put a 20mm fork on their XC forks, they have a better option - 15mm QR, it's better than a 20mm, as it doesn't require a wider fork leg, nor a heavier wider hub, and the 15mm QR is much easier to use than what Rock Shocks has to offer - now Rock Shocks has started using the 15mm standard, but their QR isn't so easy - I'm running a Revelation fork, and don't care for the QR - can't wait to replace it with a proper FOX fork.

    Back to 605b - asked a few more product managers in the bike industry, and I think the vote is out there - 650b will only live on the very small scale - small frame builders, leaving the public will little choices for wheel options. Sorry to kill it for you.

    The improvements on 29'r wheel is awesome - every major wheel maker provides options - every tire manufacturer has options too.
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
    Jack Handy

  7. #7
    mtbr member
    Reputation: carverboy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    531
    Back to 605b - asked a few more product managers in the bike industry, and I think the vote is out there - 650b will only live on the very small scale - small frame builders, leaving the public will little choices for wheel options. Sorry to kill it for you.

    Oh what a difference a year makes

  8. #8
    mtbr member
    Reputation: fakemind's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Posts
    64
    I wouldn't be so quick to write 650b off. I've read a bit recently about most of the fork manufacturers supposedly bringing out 650b specific models for 2013. Also on Saturday, Nino Schurter just won the first round of the world cup XC on a prototype 650b Scott.

  9. #9
    Not just famous; infamous
    Reputation: coolhandluchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by fakemind View Post
    I wouldn't be so quick to write 650b off. I've read a bit recently about most of the fork manufacturers supposedly bringing out 650b specific models for 2013. Also on Saturday, Nino Schurter just won the first round of the world cup XC on a prototype 650b Scott.
    2012 is going to be the year of the zombie threads!

    I think carverboy meant to quote dan23's reply from a year ago. Basically Pivot's response to my thread back then was "don't bother". A year later, that tune may be changing...

  10. #10
    Paterfamilias
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by coolhandluchs View Post
    2012 is going to be the year of the zombie threads!

    I think carverboy meant to quote dan23's reply from a year ago. Basically Pivot's response to my thread back then was "don't bother". A year later, that tune may be changing...
    My point wasn't a don't bother, it was it won't work on the Mach 5...
    We have always liked the 650b idea, what my other comments pointed out, is that we aren't the pioneers of this movement, we would need support of others to make it happen...

    Our tune hasn't changed, as we still don't recommend putting 650b wheels on any of our bikes, as there will not be ample clearance for the bigger wheel and tires, and putting 650b on a 429 frame would create a frankinbike that would ride like crap, the BB would be in a weird place that would affect the ride quality etc. We know there are people out there riding at their own risk, we just can't approve of it, as there isn't clearance on the frames.

    Chris has always been a fan of 650b, it has merit. I'll let everyone who reads this thread find the articles where he talks about 650b...

    Happy Trails!
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
    Jack Handy

  11. #11
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,379
    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    My point wasn't a don't bother, it was it won't work on the Mach 5...
    We have always liked the 650b idea, what my other comments pointed out, is that we aren't the pioneers of this movement, we would need support of others to make it happen...

    Our tune hasn't changed, as we still don't recommend putting 650b wheels on any of our bikes, as there will not be ample clearance for the bigger wheel and tires, and putting 650b on a 429 frame would create a frankinbike that would ride like crap, the BB would be in a weird place that would affect the ride quality etc. We know there are people out there riding at their own risk, we just can't approve of it, as there isn't clearance on the frames.

    Chris has always been a fan of 650b, it has merit. I'll let everyone who reads this thread find the articles where he talks about 650b...

    Happy Trails!
    The Firebird seems perfect for 650b conversion....runs a low bottom bracket, head angle around the right figure to take into account the increased trail angle of the 650b wheels and according to deby the FB has plenty of clearance. Any feedback from users?

  12. #12
    mtbr member
    Reputation: carpio77b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    70
    Quote Originally Posted by coolhandluchs View Post
    Thanks for the replies. I figured it would be a tight fit (if at all) for the rear tire. It seemed like an interesting idea, since I've never taken a shine to 29ers. I doubt the tire would clear the seat tube at bottom-out anyway. The number of 650b products appears to be dwindling, which is sad, since a lightweight 120mm travel 650b would rule the endurance racing circuit out here in CO, despite the lack of tires.

    Until Fox puts a 20mm axle on their lighter forks (probably never) I'll continue using my RockShox. I have a Pike, which from what I've read, should clear the bigger tire. But, if the rear won't fit, it's a no-go anyway.

    But I wouldn't want to raise the BB again anyway...I've worked too hard to lower it.
    Not trying to hijack the thread, but how did you lower the BB on your Mach 5?

  13. #13
    Not just famous; infamous
    Reputation: coolhandluchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by carpio77b View Post
    Not trying to hijack the thread, but how did you lower the BB on your Mach 5?
    I put a 7.5x2" shock on it. Check out this thread for details. Still riding it that way without issues, but it obviously isn't a modification that Pivot would recommend.

  14. #14
    mtbr member
    Reputation: carpio77b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    70
    So what is your BB height now?
    Did that change the head tube angle as well?
    Did you notice that the cornering is significantly better?

  15. #15
    Not just famous; infamous
    Reputation: coolhandluchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by carpio77b View Post
    So what is your BB height now?
    Did that change the head tube angle as well?
    Did you notice that the cornering is significantly better?
    BB sits around 13.5" with 2.25" tires and a 140mm RS Pike. HA and SA are about a degree slacker than stock. Cornering is so much better that I really have no desire to go back to the stock shock length. It's really opened my eyes to just how important BB height is, so much so that now it's the first thing I look at when comparing bikes.
    Last edited by coolhandluchs; 04-14-2012 at 06:32 PM.

  16. #16
    mtbr member
    Reputation: carpio77b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    70
    Cool experiment. I have the 2010 Mach 5. When you use the term plush as it relates to cornering, are you referring to how low the rear shock sits in the sag in high g corners? Also, would setting psi at 40 pct. sag on the 2.25" shock have similar effect to bb height and ha? I understand that this may make the rear spongy.

  17. #17
    Not just famous; infamous
    Reputation: coolhandluchs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    1,073
    Quote Originally Posted by carpio77b View Post
    Cool experiment. I have the 2010 Mach 5. When you use the term plush as it relates to cornering, are you referring to how low the rear shock sits in the sag in high g corners? Also, would setting psi at 40 pct. sag on the 2.25" shock have similar effect to bb height and ha? I understand that this may make the rear spongy.
    As far as "plushness", I was just describing the shock's ability to react to small to medium bumps. Neither shock I have (including the stock one) is properly valved for my bike IMO, so they're just very firm on smaller stuff. The cornering is better because of the lower BB height.

    If I remember my math correctly, setting the stock shock to 40% sag should put the wheel at the same point as the shorter shock at 25% sag, so yes, if you set your sag to 40%, you'll get a pretty good idea as to how the bike handles with the slacker/lower geometry.

  18. #18
    mtbr member
    Reputation: carpio77b's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    70
    The Mach 5's firmness on small stuff may be why people generally characterize the Mach 5 as "xcish". I don't think there's any magic to bike geo - low bb height = low CG and slack HA = rearward CG.

    I've been setting the sag at the factory spec'd 30% and found that the shock (2010 RP23) is very finicky at this point. I go about 185# geared up and have noticed 150 psi puts the sag at over 30% while 152-153 psi jumps down to 22%. My shock pump press. gage may be inaccurate. Anyway, I like the plusher/slacker feel at 30% because I don't do any big hits that I can't leg out. I do notice my zip tie indicator shows that I bottom out on 1.5'-2' drops, but I don't sense any harshness. Also noticed the tippy feeling in tight radius, descending entrance-ascending exit corners, but I'm not sure if any bike, with my skill level, would be totally stable.

  19. #19
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    291
    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    We have always liked the 650b idea, what my other comments pointed out, is that we aren't the pioneers of this movement, we would need support of others to make it happen...
    Slip slidin' away, slip slidin' awaaaaaaaaaaay...........

  20. #20
    mtbr member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    310
    650B...it's coming.

    http://forums.mtbr.com/650b/?securit...5&daysprune=30

    Fox has a new 650B Fork coming out "officially now"
    Enve has 650B Carbon wheels out now
    Scott is making frames
    Pacenti is now making a 2.4 High volume DH tire the "mega moto"
    Other tires are on their way - many to choose from already
    Seven Cycles are making a 650B frame

    on and on.....

  21. #21
    mtbr member
    Reputation: hrdude's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    180
    Man, I would love to see a 650b Mach 5.7c Pivot's geometry & dw link is right on. C'mon Pivot, please bring it on.
    Last edited by hrdude; 05-03-2012 at 09:27 PM.

  22. #22
    74 & 29 pilot
    Reputation: MTB Pilot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    1,852
    I want to try 650b on my FB. Anybody know if the rear has clearance for the 27.5 wheels?

    If the 5.7c was 650b compatible, I'd buy one tomorrow.

    MTBP
    MTBP
    "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
    Turn on the truth: http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/

  23. #23
    Paterfamilias
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Posts
    402
    Quote Originally Posted by YamiRider1316 View Post
    the fb should clear 650b front and rear at bottom travel with no mods. Thinking hard about going that route with my fb as well.

    Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2
    Sorry to burst your bubble, but it will not clear on a Firebird. Trust us when we say, and by we I mean PIVOT, that none of our current bikes will accommodate a 650b wheel and tire. Of course 650b wheels and tires would fit on a Mach 429 frame, but that would defeat the purpose, and the geometry would be whack with a silly BB height too.

    Please do not ride any of our bikes with a 650b wheel. If you do, you will be riding at your own risk, and that risk being injury, damage to the frame which would void the warranty, as well as damage to other bike parts.

    Sorry,
    The Management...
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
    Jack Handy

  24. #24
    mtbr member
    Reputation: YamiRider1316's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    263
    Quote Originally Posted by MTB Pilot View Post
    I want to try 650b on my FB. Anybody know if the rear has clearance for the 27.5 wheels?

    If the 5.7c was 650b compatible, I'd buy one tomorrow.

    MTBP
    the fb should clear 650b front and rear at bottom travel with no mods. Thinking hard about going that route with my fb as well.

    Sent from my LG-P930 using Tapatalk 2

  25. #25
    mtbr member
    Reputation: doismellbacon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,775
    Quote Originally Posted by hrdude View Post
    Man, I would love to see a 650b Mach 5.7c Pivot's geometry & dw link is right on. C'mon Pivot, please bring it on.
    +1
    That bike would rock.
    After 3 years on a 650b Mojo, and a good long demo ride with a 5.7 Carbon on familiar and challenging trails, it was clear that.....
    the Mach 5.7 carbon is a more evolved 140mm carbon dw bike...lighter, stiffer, better stock shock tune.....
    but those improvements were not enough to outweigh the advantages of the 650b wheels... at least not for me...on my trails.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •