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Thread: 429C or Czar ?

  1. #1
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    429C or Czar ?

    Ok.
    After extensive test rides have finally narrowed it down to a DW link race bike.
    but can't decide between 429 and the Czar.
    Over 40 XC racer, coming from a vertex hard tail which i will keep.
    Have been offered a similar race deal on both frames from my local.
    don't really mind which bike i end up racing.
    Just can't split the final decision so it's up to you guys now.

    Just need 3 good reasons

  2. #2
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    Czar!!! I have ridden both. 1)The Czar is more of an XC race bike 2)The Czar makes a very nice trail bike 3)Turner's probably hands down best customer service in the business!

  3. #3
    Paterfamilias
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    Mach 429 Carbon

    1. Mach 429 Carbon's are in stock...
    2. Option for 100mm fork for XC racing...
    3. Option for 120mm fork for Trail riding...
    4. Mach 429 Carbon frames are in stock
    5. 7 build options
    6. Turner guys are nice, but we hand out free high fives all day!
    7. Folks are racing this on the enduro circut...


    Sorry I got carried away with my reasons...
    "The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face".
    Jack Handy

  4. #4
    Get to dah choppah
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    I've now ridden both. Here is a prior cpmoparison i did before the Czar became available -
    XC CF 29'er Reviews - Part 2

    The main difference between the two is the capacity to integrate a 120mm fork.

    1. If you don't want or need 120mm, the Czar is a good chioce. With 120mm, the Czar produces significant wheel flop and the cornering balance is degraded.
    2. If you do, get the 429C. In my experience, it is the best frame available at integrating a 120mm fork into an XC Race capable frame.
    3. Czar builds tend to be lighter, though the 2014 Pivot builds now at least feature lighter wheels on the high-end specs. If you are highly weight conscious, the Czar may be a lighter and more economical solution.

    Lastly, if you are not Trek-adverse, consider demoing a 2014 Superfly 100 before commiting to a Czar. Their handling is close to identical.
    Santa Cruz TBc
    Pivot 429c

  5. #5
    11 is one louder than 10
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    First and foremost. Green is faster so that alone should push you to the Pivot.

    You will be happy with either. I have not ridden the Czar, but looking at those numbers I really suspect that at 120mm fork you are going to enter the floppy steering realm. The pivot at 120 handles great (where I have mine most of the time) but could steer quickly at 100. I've long felt 110 would be perfect on the pivot, but the fox forx are now much more of a pain in the ass than they used to be to drop 10mm. It's no longer just a spacer. That said, I've been at 120 most of the year and would have no issue racing it.

    Honestly given that you are keeping the harddtail, I'd go pivot 429c all day.

    You will be happy either way. The pivot gives you a bit more versitility in my opinion.
    "The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care."

  6. #6
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    It can also depend on where you live. In Texas it's very rocky, and I like the extra cushion of the 120 fork even when racing, and it makes a good trail bike when I go ride the ledges at City Park or RPR. The stiffness of the Pivot is very nice for plowing through rock gardens. I also liked the slack angles. It will be a bit heavier than the Czar - mine is right around 25 lbs w/ XTR, carbon bars/post, Crest wheels, and heavy cheap pedals.

  7. #7
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    It's an extra half-pound and not offered on a stock Pivot build, but my 429c (large) with the 2014 Talas (90/120) is great. Drops you down nicely on the steep, and super-steep, uphills, yet lets it all loose on the downhills. Just remember to flick the switch!

  8. #8
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    Thank you very much to everyone that posted.
    Both beautiful bikes.
    Ordered the Czar due to it being a bit longer in the top tube, slightly lighter and more XC, never going to run a 120 fork . i would of been happy on either so needed to find a reason so i could make a choice.
    pretty excited and can't wait to get "on it"
    Thank you again for the information and taking the time to answer my question.

  9. #9
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    #1 and #4 are worth several month's of riding to many depending on frame size (believe the XL Czar is nearly vaporware), and in the past I would've weighed very heavily in 1 and 4's favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    Mach 429 Carbon

    1. Mach 429 Carbon's are in stock...
    2. Option for 100mm fork for XC racing...
    3. Option for 120mm fork for Trail riding...
    4. Mach 429 Carbon frames are in stock
    5. 7 build options
    6. Turner guys are nice, but we hand out free high fives all day!
    7. Folks are racing this on the enduro circut...


    Sorry I got carried away with my reasons...

  10. #10
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    Yep, depending on what size frame - and Turner's personal input (Czar Availability - Page 3) - I'd go 429C:

    "Lots of choices, no need bagging on Turner Bikes because we don't have your size and color. Life is too short to sit around whining about availability of any mountain bike, go ride a bike. As for a 'date'? Isn't anyone sick of hearing the 2 weeks 2 weeks 2 weeks yet? I am, and I am trying to get my crew to quit giving any sort of date, because until we have it and it has passed QC it does NOT exist. Not as far as anyone of you wanting to ride one is concerned.

    We have already missed delivery dates repeatedly, and that is enough for me to say no more dates, no more predictions. When we have them we have them.
    ie. right now there are frames in customs that have been there 3x longer than the last shipment, and NSA and Customs ain't going to answer a personal call from a peanut sized company like Turner Bikes tell them a MTBR joker doesn't like getting no for an answer. So guess what? buy a Specialized and go for a ride! The rides you miss should not be blamed on me.

    DT"

    Quote Originally Posted by dan23 View Post
    Mach 429 Carbon

    1. Mach 429 Carbon's are in stock...
    2. Option for 100mm fork for XC racing...
    3. Option for 120mm fork for Trail riding...
    4. Mach 429 Carbon frames are in stock
    5. 7 build options
    6. Turner guys are nice, but we hand out free high fives all day!
    7. Folks are racing this on the enduro circut...


    Sorry I got carried away with my reasons...

  11. #11
    Long Live the Gorn!
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    3 things...easy

    • Deceptively Fast
    • Ruthlessly Efficient
    • Ridiculously Fun

  12. #12
    74 & 29 pilot
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvader View Post
    3 things...easy

    • Deceptively Fast
    • Ruthlessly Efficient
    • Ridiculously Fun
    I SECOND THAT!! ... We're talking about the 429c, right?
    MTBP
    "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!"
    Turn on the truth: http://www.ronpaulchannel.com/

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Giant View Post
    I have not ridden the Czar, but looking at those numbers I really suspect that at 120mm fork you are going to enter the floppy steering realm.
    I'm curious what makes you say that? When you put the same fork on both frames the geometries are actually pretty close. Competitive cyclist lists the geometry for the 429c with both forks (I believe it's labeled 120/140 by mistake instead of 100/120) so you can compare to the czar with 100mm. Pivot Mach 429 Carbon | Competitive Cyclist

    With both at 100mm, the czar is just a tad slacker at 69.8 vs 70.3. The BB's end up within 0.05". The chainstays are also closer than they seem because they are measured differently (turners is measured horozontally, pivot's follows the chainstay; pivot's horozontal measurement would be less.)

    I've never ridden either so I have no personal experience to claim anything. But I see a lot of comparisons of the 429c vs czar when they had different forks. I'm wondering if the comparo results are more about fork length (and the geometry it produces) than the frames -- and the results would reverse if the forks were swapped.
    Last edited by matto6; 01-11-2014 at 11:31 PM.

  14. #14
    11 is one louder than 10
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    Quote Originally Posted by matto6 View Post
    I'm curious what makes you say that? When you put the same fork on both frames the geometries are actually pretty close. Competitive cyclist lists the geometry for the 429c with both forks (I believe it's labeled 120/140 by mistake instead of 100/120) so you can compare to the czar with 100mm. Pivot Mach 429 Carbon | Competitive Cyclist

    With both at 100mm, the czar is just a tad slacker at 69.8 vs 70.3. The BB's end up within 0.05". The chainstays are also closer than they seem because they are measured differently (turners is measured horozontally, pivot's follows the chainstay; pivot's horozontal measurement would be less.)

    I've never ridden either so I have no personal experience to claim anything. But I see a lot of comparisons of the 429c vs czar when they had different forks. I'm wondering if the comparo results are more about fork length (and the geometry it produces) than the frames -- and the results would reverse if the forks were swapped.
    Well, one thing I didn't take into consideration is that Turner does recommend a 51mm offset which admittingly will lighten up that steering on the front end at 120mm. So, to your point it may not be as floppy (or heavy so to speak). I've typically found that once you go sub 70deg (on a bike intended for a fork with less travel than you are putting on there) on a 44-46mm offset fork that the steering gets that floppy, heavy feeling.

    I supect the 51mm offset would help the steering feel on the Turner. I was speaking in a complete apples to apples comparison. (same tires, sag etc).
    I actually really do want to try a Czar. Whats interesting is that talking to someone who really understands suspension systems and leverage ratio's better than I do (I have a solid understanding but don't crunch numbers) is that he felt the Czar might be a more plush ride than the Pivot (with stock shocks).

    There are days I miss my Tallboy a bit (days I'm playing on the bike) as it was a bit more plush than the Pivot. On the flip side, the Pivot Chasis is SO stiff from front to rear it's fantastic steering. It's much stiffer than my Tallboy was (tallboy V1, 135 x 10 rear), a 142 rear would help.

    Anyways, I actually really want to try a czar and a tallboy 2... SO many good bikes out there right now.

    But as for the floppy steering, I may in fact be wrong since I didn't take into account the 51mm offset effect. I would bet it's a bit lighter steering that way for sure.
    "The thing is, Bob, it's not that I'm lazy, it's that I just don't care."

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