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  1. #1
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    Even Though I Violated...

    ...rules I think it turned out ok enough for me to like.

    Summers Mill, Salado, TX

    It was a cold day and I put the bike in the shop so I made a date with the camera.

    Was mid-afternoon with sun beaming down toward the field and"falls" prettty straight forward..not the recommended shooting environment. The tree in the middle is somewhat distracting but with the sun such that it was and the property being private I was pretty much stuck to this vantage point.

    F22, 1 Sec, ISO 100, 16MM Canon T3i
    Light Craft Workshop Neutral Density Fader MkII

    Cropped with Gimp.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Even Though I Violated...-untitledwallpaper-medium-.jpg  


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    What lense were you using if I might ask?
    Soil Taste Tester

  3. #3
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    Tamron 10-24

  4. #4
    Look at the time!
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    Famous landscape photographer Bruce Barnbaum says rules are "...mindless things that raise you quickly to a level of acceptable mediocrity, then prevent you from progressing further.", and to forget things like the "rules of thirds".
    Obviously he doesn't mean to put everything in the middle instead (because that would also be a rule)- what he means is: Play with your your composition, and adjust it so it looks good - don't distract yourself from that by thinking about rules.

    A technical question though - why did you shoot at f22?
    At F16 or smaller, you are introducing unsharpness through diffraction, which I believe is visible in your photo. At 16mm there is more than enough depth of field even at f8 or f11.
    wanted: Cannondale Lefty w/ V-brake studs

  5. #5
    saddlemeat
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    It's a nice photo, just not too interesting. Interesting is good...

    Speaking more technically, clipping the histogram might create more contrast and movement but your highlights are pretty close to blown on the white rock so careful with that end. Increasing saturation and sharpening with the unsharp mask tool will add some more punch. This assumes you are using photoshop or similar for post processing.
    A Useful Bear is a handy thing.

  6. #6
    saddlemeat
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    Like this...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Even Though I Violated...-untitledwallpaper-medium-.jpg  

    A Useful Bear is a handy thing.

  7. #7
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    Thx all.

    lelebebbel---I think because some article I read on line mentioned trying that (F22) out. Really outside of not being afraid to take the camera off auto the last several years I really know little about the whys and in and outs.

    bsieb---yes that is what mainly bothered me about the photo--the side of the building being too light, bright, blown... thanks that is much better. I need to learn some more of the basics of gimp too rather than just crop, scale, add a border,

    it's a slow process as I don't spend all that much time ea day on photo stuff but would like to make the pictures I do take look better.

  8. #8
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    I thnk with what others helped with, it's entirely fine.

    Ok pf

    Quote Originally Posted by sumptuously numb View Post
    1. Lose the horribly tacky border.

    i like it.

    i see another new name btw.

    2. Work on composition, esp. Leading lines.

    3. Work on exposure.

    4. Work on being able to capture a meaningful photo without have to do a monster crop. seeing as how there is a fence that keeps everyone away that doesn't pay hundreds of dollars a day for a room at this retreat, it is unlikely that i can get better vantage point. The time of day i can do differently.

    5. Go back and take a similar photo from a very low angle, from the left side of that tree, so that it's out of the picture.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Even Though I Violated...-img_0137-small-.jpg  


  9. #9
    saddlemeat
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    The BASICS to learn are:

    1. Setting Levels with the Histogram
    2. Adjusting the Saturation
    3. Sharpening with the Unsharp Mask tool

    Then save at the size (800x600ish for the web) you desire in the color space you require (RGBs for the web) as a jpeg at the compression level you desire ( 6 is good for the web).

    This would be a more or less normal work flow for digital photos. If you are going to crop do it before other editing. I find it easier to crop in the viewfinder while shooting the photo, reason being that your eye will balance, or compose, the image using the whole view and then when you crop the composition isn't right. If you deliberately crop in the viewfinder you can avoid this, to a degree. I prefer to stitch multiple exposures to get a pano rather than crop but that is for print output where a higher resolution is needed.
    A Useful Bear is a handy thing.

  10. #10
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    If you like doing waterfalls you may want to pick up an ND(neutral density filter), this will allow you to have a longer shutter speed so that the falls are more silky, I haven't done it in a few years but i want to say 3-4 seconds was ideal... OR you can wait till its a little darker out. keep an eye out for the lense flare, sometimes its as easy to remove as a slight move of the camera(usually you can see it in your viewfinder)

    with a wide angle get way closer, I would like to see the falls start at the left side of the image and the aim more towards the building if that makes sense.

    I'm excited to see you learn and progress, looks like a cool location!

  11. #11
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    Thanks ! I used an ND, tripod and shutter release--I had it dialed almost black. it was just too sunny out. I glean from all this...I should have used an aperture of like 8 or 12--shutter speed should have been longer than 1 sec, should have been closer for a better view point and camera could have been lower.

    I did receive permission from the property owner to come out anytime during their opening hours and shoot away. I just have to let them know I'm there. So some overcast weekend day i may give it another go. They liked the picture enough (the corrected saturated, sharpened one) to want to display it on their facebook wall.

    Quote Originally Posted by nine22 View Post
    If you like doing waterfalls you may want to pick up an ND(neutral density filter), this will allow you to have a longer shutter speed so that the falls are more silky, I haven't done it in a few years but i want to say 3-4 seconds was ideal... OR you can wait till its a little darker out. keep an eye out for the lense flare, sometimes its as easy to remove as a slight move of the camera(usually you can see it in your viewfinder)

    with a wide angle get way closer, I would like to see the falls start at the left side of the image and the aim more towards the building if that makes sense.

    I'm excited to see you learn and progress, looks like a cool location!

  12. #12
    saddlemeat
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    Thanks ! I used an ND, tripod and shutter release--I had it dialed almost black. it was just too sunny out. I glean from all this...I should have used an aperture of like 8 or 12--shutter speed should have been longer than 1 sec, should have been closer for a better view point and camera could have been lower.

    I did receive permission from the property owner to come out anytime during their opening hours and shoot away. I just have to let them know I'm there. So some overcast weekend day i may give it another go. They liked the picture enough (the corrected saturated, sharpened one) to want to display it on their facebook wall.
    You could also use your selective spot metering to meter off the bright wall for setting exposure. On my camera I can either move the metering spot or hold the shutter half down to meter off that spot and then recompose while keeping the shutter half way, I'm sure your's does too. Set your program mode to select max aperture. I'm not familiar with Canon menus but I'm sure you are. You are trying to get a full histogram without blowing highlights or blocking shadows, no saturation, no or minimal sharpening. This will give you a slightly bland image with maximum image data for editing. I capture as a an Adobe RGB raw file at max resolution + a small jpg for web use. Photoshop Elements is ideal for editing digital images and I recommend using it or Photoshop for post processing your raw image files if you are somewhat serious. If I'm talking down to you I apologize, just trying to get us on the same page...
    A Useful Bear is a handy thing.

  13. #13
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    From my post below: "Really outside of not being afraid to take the camera off auto the last several years I really know little about the whys and in and outs".

    No not talking down, but like anything new don't expect to me to understand or get the hang of any of this rapidly. For one I am not a patient person and will after a while say good enough as long as I can like it. And I don't even set aside a time to "just go take pictures".

    For example of not being knowledgeable.... exposure is a combination of shutter speed and aperture and ISO and white balance or not... see I am so confused really. So if I want to meter something I do that before I do the other settings, after.. ?

    I know there are a bunch of resources such as magazines and websites that explain all this but the problem is EVERYONE of them so far that I have come across explains one subject as a stand alone topic and really doesn't take one through an image and how it was taken and why to tie it all together---one just usually will be given the ISO, shutter speed and aperture and it might talk about why one or two adjustment parameters were used but not talk about all of them assuming the reader knows and thus leaving a beginner wandering lost in the dark.. lol

    Quote Originally Posted by bsieb View Post
    You could also use your selective spot metering to meter off the bright wall for setting exposure. On my camera I can either move the metering spot or hold the shutter half down to meter off that spot and then recompose while keeping the shutter half way, I'm sure your's does too. Set your program mode to select max aperture. I'm not familiar with Canon menus but I'm sure you are. You are trying to get a full histogram without blowing highlights or blocking shadows, no saturation, no or minimal sharpening. This will give you a slightly bland image with maximum image data for editing. I capture as a an Adobe RGB raw file at max resolution + a small jpg for web use. Photoshop Elements is ideal for editing digital images and I recommend using it or Photoshop for post processing your raw image files if you are somewhat serious. If I'm talking down to you I apologize, just trying to get us on the same page...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    From my post below: "Really outside of not being afraid to take the camera off auto the last several years I really know little about the whys and in and outs".

    No not talking down, but like anything new don't expect to me to understand or get the hang of any of this rapidly. For one I am not a patient person and will after a while say good enough as long as I can like it. And I don't even set aside a time to "just go take pictures".

    For example of not being knowledgeable.... exposure is a combination of shutter speed and aperture and ISO and white balance or not... see I am so confused really. So if I want to meter something I do that before I do the other settings, after.. ?

    I know there are a bunch of resources such as magazines and websites that explain all this but the problem is EVERYONE of them so far that I have come across explains one subject as a stand alone topic and really doesn't take one through an image and how it was taken and why to tie it all together---one just usually will be given the ISO, shutter speed and aperture and it might talk about why one or two adjustment parameters were used but not talk about all of them assuming the reader knows and thus leaving a beginner wandering lost in the dark.. lol
    exposure is technically aperture and shutter speed. ISO plays a role but is the rate at which the sensor (formerly film) soaks up the incoming light. so previously you would have used a high ISO film (400?) for family events, even higher for sporting events, low number for taking studio shots of artwork under ideal lighting conditions. hi ISO, while allowing you to use a fast shutter speed (to capture action, or allow you to take a handheld shot in dim light) may likely induce 'noise' into the image.

    white balance is how the camera 'sees' the color of light as it reflects off of things. sunlight, fluorescent, your flash, parking lot lights - all cast different colors. setting the white balance allows the camera to adjust the 'color' of the image.

    if you shoot in RAW, or have some software, you can correct for white balance after the fact. sometimes 'auto' gets it right. sometimes images have a green or warm tint, depending on the lighting.


    you might want to see if your camera is listed here:

    ShortCourses-Bookstore Contents

    and also read through some of the general tutorials:

    ShortCourses-The On-line Library of Digital Photography

  15. #15
    saddlemeat
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    From my post below: "Really outside of not being afraid to take the camera off auto the last several years I really know little about the whys and in and outs".

    No not talking down, but like anything new don't expect to me to understand or get the hang of any of this rapidly. For one I am not a patient person and will after a while say good enough as long as I can like it. And I don't even set aside a time to "just go take pictures".

    For example of not being knowledgeable.... exposure is a combination of shutter speed and aperture and ISO and white balance or not... see I am so confused really. So if I want to meter something I do that before I do the other settings, after.. ?

    I know there are a bunch of resources such as magazines and websites that explain all this but the problem is EVERYONE of them so far that I have come across explains one subject as a stand alone topic and really doesn't take one through an image and how it was taken and why to tie it all together---one just usually will be given the ISO, shutter speed and aperture and it might talk about why one or two adjustment parameters were used but not talk about all of them assuming the reader knows and thus leaving a beginner wandering lost in the dark.. lol
    You can use auto white balance and auto ISO to simplify learning. That leaves shutter speed and aperture, which must balance with each other. You will get generally better landscapes with a small (high numerically, f8-f11 is the sweet spot typically) aperture and sufficient shutter speed to prevent motion blurring. Your camera may have a landscape preset to use at first. Good focusing technique and good exposure metering are the foundation upon which good images are built. By that I mean picking what point your auto focus will focus on and what spot your auto exposure will see to set the image exposure. Shooting completely manual is even more straight forward in that respect, and is in fact a good base for understanding and using the more automated features to your advantage.

    Reading your camera manual once or twice a month until you know it well is important too, so you know all your options and how to use them. It's a little like learning to play a musical instrument at first but soon becomes familiar and then second nature. That is the point at which you can really use light and composition to create compelling images.
    A Useful Bear is a handy thing.

  16. #16
    "Fred Rider"
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    Never mind

  17. #17
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    Someone said to meter off of the bright wall. But this confuses me because that is opposite of what I read on-line to do. So tonight here in the computer room I decided to practice by taking some pictures of my computer tower and monitor. I spot meter off the monitor and recompose and shoot and sure enough the image on the monitor is more clear than I've ever seen before, but everything else is pretty dark. On line says to select a mid-tone. So the red on the computer case is the closest to that I have I think---that just gave a realistic looking tower and a blah everything else. Now if I set to auto everything looks great but for the flash reflecting on the case and the unnatural looking white walls and desk.

    I see someone posted up "never mind"; I guess that means he/she thinks I'm a lost cause. lol.

    Thanks everyone for the advise anyway--even the sarcastic always getting banned petef persona. I guess I'll keep tinkering and trying things.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    Someone said to meter off of the bright wall. But this confuses me because that is opposite of what I read on-line to do. So tonight here in the computer room I decided to practice by taking some pictures of my computer tower and monitor. I spot meter off the monitor and recompose and shoot and sure enough the image on the monitor is more clear than I've ever seen before, but everything else is pretty dark. On line says to select a mid-tone. So the red on the computer case is the closest to that I have I think---that just gave a realistic looking tower and a blah everything else. Now if I set to auto everything looks great but for the flash reflecting on the case and the unnatural looking white walls and desk.

    I see someone posted up "never mind"; I guess that means he/she thinks I'm a lost cause. lol.

    Thanks everyone for the advise anyway--even the sarcastic always getting banned petef persona. I guess I'll keep tinkering and trying things.
    depending on what you meter from, will set the tone for the image.

    ShortCourses-How Your Meter Works

  19. #19
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    I hate to appear dense but that course does not help. It implies the camera will suggest a correct exposure. So am I supposed to be in a mode other than manual when taking a meter ? And I still don't know why in my initial photo I would want to meter off the very bright wall...


    Quote Originally Posted by bmike View Post
    depending on what you meter from, will set the tone for the image.

    ShortCourses-How Your Meter Works

  20. #20
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    Completly missed you were using an ND, it must of been SUPER bright to be shooting F22, iso. How many stops is your ND?

    If you look at the bottom of your viewfinder you will have a "scale" that look slike <---|---> and if it looks like - <|||---> + then you are under exposed and - <---||||>. "correct" expsoure would look like - <---|---> +

    I use nikon, so these terms may be different on a canon.

    There are differnt meter modes in camera, one is evaluative(i think this is what canon calls it) or Matrix, where it trys to get the best exposure for everything in the frame.

    One is Spot which is usuall just 1 of the focus points, or you can configured it for multiple points. So what you do is "aim" that point at your shadow area and see if you are under or over exposed, set your control for the shadows and then you can meter for your highlight and see if it out of range or off the scale of your meter (full to the right or left).

    If you have ever heard the term expose for highlights, that is where you meter for your bright area, say an ornate white dress.


    This works for manual mode, when using other modes such as Tv or Av, that is where you would use exposure compensation.

    after re-reading it sounds like you have it right, but maybe misunderstood what the metering is doing. If you metered off your computer monitor, and it came out perfect but everything else is dark, that is because your monitor is way brighter than anything else and wants to bring the exposure down so it is correctly exposed where everything else then is way underexposed.

    This often occurs when shooting a sunset, to correct this photographers will often use a graduated neutral density filter which stops/blogs some of the bright light from the sun, yet still allow the foreground to be properly exposed.

    I feel as if i'm rambling, I hoped I helped a little.

  21. #21
    govt kontrakt projkt mgr
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    Thanks, that did help ! Not sure about the filter..it is an light factory mkII that is adjustable..I had it dialed so I could barely see a thing through the viewfinder. Yes it was very sunny outside--around 3 or 330 PM I think.

    I understand the scale..and if I understand what I read on a pretty good website last night I want to adjust for the bright area to be a few .. stops..? mark ? well I think zones may be a better term above 0 and the darkest spot to be a few below with the "grey" right in the middle...

    Time for work.. but is mid-week.. ! yes.. weekend's coming..haha

    Quote Originally Posted by nine22 View Post
    Completly missed you were using an ND, it must of been SUPER bright to be shooting F22, iso. How many stops is your ND?

    If you look at the bottom of your viewfinder you will have a "scale" that look slike <---|---> and if it looks like - <|||---> + then you are under exposed and - <---||||>. "correct" expsoure would look like - <---|---> +

    I use nikon, so these terms may be different on a canon.

    There are differnt meter modes in camera, one is evaluative(i think this is what canon calls it) or Matrix, where it trys to get the best exposure for everything in the frame.

    One is Spot which is usuall just 1 of the focus points, or you can configured it for multiple points. So what you do is "aim" that point at your shadow area and see if you are under or over exposed, set your control for the shadows and then you can meter for your highlight and see if it out of range or off the scale of your meter (full to the right or left).

    If you have ever heard the term expose for highlights, that is where you meter for your bright area, say an ornate white dress.


    This works for manual mode, when using other modes such as Tv or Av, that is where you would use exposure compensation.

    after re-reading it sounds like you have it right, but maybe misunderstood what the metering is doing. If you metered off your computer monitor, and it came out perfect but everything else is dark, that is because your monitor is way brighter than anything else and wants to bring the exposure down so it is correctly exposed where everything else then is way underexposed.

    This often occurs when shooting a sunset, to correct this photographers will often use a graduated neutral density filter which stops/blogs some of the bright light from the sun, yet still allow the foreground to be properly exposed.

    I feel as if i'm rambling, I hoped I helped a little.

  22. #22
    saddlemeat
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    Someone said to meter off of the bright wall. But this confuses me because that is opposite of what I read on-line to do.
    Metering off the bright wall will ensure that it is properly exposed and not blown out. That may block up some shadows so you compromise. Just look at the images on the camera screen and experiment a little until you get a good selection of well exposed images to choose from. This is something you develop from feedback in your image editor too. You don't really know what you have until you open it in photoshop (or other).
    A Useful Bear is a handy thing.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmySlowRdr View Post
    Thanks, that did help ! Not sure about the filter..it is an light factory mkII that is adjustable..I had it dialed so I could barely see a thing through the viewfinder. Yes it was very sunny outside--around 3 or 330 PM I think.

    I understand the scale..and if I understand what I read on a pretty good website last night I want to adjust for the bright area to be a few .. stops..? mark ? well I think zones may be a better term above 0 and the darkest spot to be a few below with the "grey" right in the middle...

    Time for work.. but is mid-week.. ! yes.. weekend's coming..haha
    Yeah, you exposed fine I think for the image, the sky is not blown out and there is still some detail on the building, you can't always capture detail in everything. That is what HDR is for. I didn't think your exposure was bad to begin with, just to swap your settings so you have a longer shutter, and a lower F/stop.

    I think this is your filter you have Light Craft Workshop Fader ND Mk II filter Filter Review looks nice! I'm jealous I really want a variable ND.filter.

    Best time to shoot landscape is usually what is referred to as the "golden hour", its the hour right around sunset and sunrise when the light is really soft and very warm...

  24. #24
    Life is Go0d!
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    Wait to take that shot in the fleeting light of the evening using a slow shutter speed for proper exposure..someone already mention lens flare..change the angle until it's not an issue.
    The only regrets in life, are the risks you didn't take.

  25. #25
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    yup--that's the filter. hey guys thanks for all the help with this. i just need to go practice.

    an old highschool pal on FB just reminded me today is-2-1-12... if ur a fan u know what that is.

    But only have the CD iteration of that, so spinnin me some sweet sounding vinyl through the mixer straight to the sennheisers.. yesss--well no not yesss..what a rushhhh

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