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  1. #1
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    wissa: who f-ed up the golf course climb?

    just got back from wissa and it looked like penn dot came down the golf course climb over the weekend or something.

    wish i had a camera so i could have taken some pix.

  2. #2
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    Which one and how so?

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by boxman12
    Which one and how so?
    the rocky steep climb with a left turn in the middle. i think it's next to one of the tees not a green. there's short wooden bridge at the base of it. over the years a 2nd trail that is very rooty at the base to the left of the rocky climb has developed

    well the "rocky" part of the climb is gone, now just dirt.

  4. #4
    in the getto
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    i know where you mean , that's just ridiculous. that was one of the more challenging climbs left. maybe the guy i saw on the trails on a unicycle did it
    it's a big sh*t sandwich and were all gonna have to take a bite

  5. #5
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    Yep, I was wondering the same thing last weekend - "where did all the rocks go"?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by toe-knee
    i know where you mean , that's just ridiculous. that was one of the more challenging climbs left. maybe the guy i saw on the trails on a unicycle did it
    I know you're joking, but it's doubtful nonetheless. I've seen that guy out there, and he can ride the #$% out of that muni.

    As for the climb? Oh well. Just wait for the next big storm and I'm sure the dirt will wash away, again, like it always does.

    Speaking of futile 'improvements' - how about the asphalt climb up from the bike path @ Lincoln Drive? You know? The one that was all warped and cracked and messed up that takes you from the bridge up to the trailheads on either side after a lengthy slow grind - that they filled in and graded with coarse gravel & stone maybe a month ago?

    Too funny, really. Because it only took one or two heavy rains to undo 90% of the work done, leaving a DEEP mess of gravel on the first left-hand bend going up.
    Last edited by Stick; 05-15-2007 at 12:21 PM.
    [SIZE="2"][/SIZE]"mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  7. #7
    wot no bike?
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    I noticed this as well and was ticked-off because I hate when people make efforts to make the trail easier. Similar to a little section near Livesy Lane where people have detoured up onto the bank of a turn rather than try to get over a rocky area. I've moved debris to prevent it but people just remove it.

    Anyway, back to the golf corse area issue -- yesterday as I was climbing it I was thinking about how someone really took some time to smooth that climb out and it seemed a little strange to me -- then I thought it actually might have been done to encourage people to use that route over that cut-through that has been created over the past year or so. That cut-through route has been causing some errosion problems at the bottom, and was initially created by people who weren't strong enough for the rocky climb. I never use that new route, although it's temping because of that great log ride leading into it.

    Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if next we see significant efforts to block-off that alternate route.
    pete

  8. #8
    Suburban Redneck
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    Quote Originally Posted by lanceh
    the rocky steep climb with a left turn in the middle. i think it's next to one of the tees not a green. there's short wooden bridge at the base of it. over the years a 2nd trail that is very rooty at the base to the left of the rocky climb has developed

    well the "rocky" part of the climb is gone, now just dirt.
    Hmm, maybe I'll be able to make it more than a third of the way up now. Haha.
    Nah, that does suck though.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn
    I noticed this as well and was ticked-off because I hate when people make efforts to make the trail easier. Similar to a little section near Livesy Lane where people have detoured up onto the bank of a turn rather than try to get over a rocky area. I've moved debris to prevent it but people just remove it.

    Anyway, back to the golf corse area issue -- yesterday as I was climbing it I was thinking about how someone really took some time to smooth that climb out and it seemed a little strange to me -- then I thought it actually might have been done to encourage people to use that route over that cut-through that has been created over the past year or so...
    Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if next we see significant efforts to block-off that alternate route.
    The ironic thing is that this isn't the first time the rocky portion of that climb has been 'improved'. It used to be much more difficult (not to start another 'good ole days vs. evolving skills thread... it really *was* rockier), but was filled and picked cleaner around the same time as that 'new' line on the left (going up) showed up, iirc.

    I'm surprised nobody else remembers this. For a time, it was much less 'loose' than it had been. It had been deteriorating ever since. Like I said above, it will most likely do the same thing again.

    So many reconstruction efforts there over the years have been from the 'lets just throw more dirt on it' camp. It just doesn't work all that well in the valley. I haven't seen the latest bit of work there, but - I won't be the least bit surprised to see that little wooden bridge burried in mud and gravel after the next big storm.
    [SIZE="2"][/SIZE]"mmmm....Beeeeeeer." - Homer J. Simpson

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick
    ISpeaking of futile 'improvements' - how about the asphalt climb up from the bike path @ Lincoln Drive? You know? The one that was all warped and cracked and messed up that takes you from the bridge up to the trailheads on either side after a lengthy slow grind - that they filled in and graded with coarse gravel & stone maybe a month ago?

    Too funny, really. Because it only took one or two heavy rains to undue 90% of the work done, leaving a DEEP mess of gravel on the first left-hand bend going up.
    i kinda figured they did that with the idea of repaving the thing. i noticed yesterday they have finally paved forbidden from the bridge where they added the retention walls to somewhere beyond where the mtb path drops you off. i would assume it will be redone all the way to ridge ave.

  11. #11
    wot no bike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lanceh
    i kinda figured they did that with the idea of repaving the thing. i noticed yesterday they have finally paved forbidden from the bridge where they added the retention walls to somewhere beyond where the mtb path drops you off. i would assume it will be redone all the way to ridge ave.
    Yeah paving was my assuption as well, they used the large ballast that I think they generally pave over. That'll be fun walking down in the snow and ice in the winter! You can crack your head at the top and meet the ambulance on your slide to the bottom.

    They sure made the slab down there nice and thick though, I'll give them that.
    pete

  12. #12
    Biker for Life
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    the same thing happened to our power lines in south williamsport. the PPL people came down a fun hill with some kind of plow and screwed it all up, after a couple of rain storms some water trenches came in that were pretty fun, but of course they had to ruin those to....we just cant win can we? now we are building our own trail that branches off of the main trail going to the top, the only thing is there is no where to get dirt from, there is just like a sheet of rock blocking our shovels, i already broke one. where do all of you guys get your dirt from?
    afk irl

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stick
    The ironic thing is that this isn't the first time the rocky portion of that climb has been 'improved'. It used to be much more difficult (not to start another 'good ole days vs. evolving skills thread... it really *was* rockier), but was filled and picked cleaner around the same time as that 'new' line on the left (going up) showed up, iirc.

    I'm surprised nobody else remembers this. For a time, it was much less 'loose' than it had been. It had been deteriorating ever since. Like I said above, it will most likely do the same thing again.

    So many reconstruction efforts there over the years have been from the 'lets just throw more dirt on it' camp. It just doesn't work all that well in the valley. I haven't seen the latest bit of work there, but - I won't be the least bit surprised to see that little wooden bridge burried in mud and gravel after the next big storm.
    I remember those days. That climb used to be fun. Now (until recently), it had turned into nothing more than a scree climb. All you needed to do was to get on the nose of the saddle and peddle your way to the top. Stay to the left of the roots and you were clear. No need to pick a line.

    As Stick says, give it time, the old type of trail will return.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn
    I noticed this as well and was ticked-off because I hate when people make efforts to make the trail easier. Similar to a little section near Livesy Lane where people have detoured up onto the bank of a turn rather than try to get over a rocky area. I've moved debris to prevent it but people just remove it.

    Anyway, back to the golf corse area issue -- yesterday as I was climbing it I was thinking about how someone really took some time to smooth that climb out and it seemed a little strange to me -- then I thought it actually might have been done to encourage people to use that route over that cut-through that has been created over the past year or so. That cut-through route has been causing some errosion problems at the bottom, and was initially created by people who weren't strong enough for the rocky climb. I never use that new route, although it's temping because of that great log ride leading into it.

    Anyway, I wouldn't be surprised if next we see significant efforts to block-off that alternate route.
    What cut through? You mean where the trail splits right after crossing the little wooden bridge? That has been there for years... at least 3 or 4 years. And you could be right about the "easier" route. Overall, its a little easier if you take the "cut-through". However, have you seen the approach to that sucker??? Its almost vertical. I have gotten stuck there more times than I can remember...Although once you clear that initial part, everything else is much easier.
    I rather take the original, longer, rocky, rooty climb. I seem to do better on that one. But like all you guys say. The wiss is the wiss. Give it a few hard storms, and it will be back to the good old climb...

  15. #15
    wot no bike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaballoLoco
    What cut through? You mean where the trail splits right after crossing the little wooden bridge? That has been there for years... at least 3 or 4 years.
    Yes that one -- hmmm I remember it beginning to develop *maybe* two years ago, if that... maybe I just somehow didn't notice it before that, or maybe time just flies and it was that long ago.
    pete

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by pahearn
    Yes that one -- hmmm I remember it beginning to develop *maybe* two years ago, if that... maybe I just somehow didn't notice it before that, or maybe time just flies and it was that long ago.
    btw, that sidehill shortcut is an awful trail and is really making the errosion on that trail even worse.

    if i see someone riding it i will try to persuade them it is not the right thing to do.

    and if you do ride it watch for logs as i do tend to throw **** across the trail sometimes in the bad sections to keep idiots from just bombing straight down it (leading to even worse errosion).

    yes, i am that guy...

  17. #17
    wot no bike?
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    Quote Originally Posted by max-a-mill
    yes, i am that guy...
    That's ok, so am I
    pete

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by max-a-mill
    btw, that sidehill shortcut is an awful trail and is really making the errosion on that trail even worse.

    if i see someone riding it i will try to persuade them it is not the right thing to do.

    and if you do ride it watch for logs as i do tend to throw **** across the trail sometimes in the bad sections to keep idiots from just bombing straight down it (leading to even worse errosion).

    yes, i am that guy...
    I agree with you about the fact that creating new trails can be detrimental to the park. But in that partcular section we are talking about, I believe (and when I say i believe I am just giving my humble opinion about based on observations, notice that I am not trying to cause mayhem) the "principal" route erodes much faster and much worse than the alternative way. If you look at the main route, most of it is off camber, rushing the water to the one side and dragging everything along it. That's why it becomes so rocky, gnarly and difficult after a few strong rain storms. The easiest way to make it up is to go as far left as possible, trying to avoid all the loose rocks and debris that ae accumulated on the right side becasue of the off camber effect. On the other hand, the alternative trail seems to be much smoother and less affected by erosion, except at the very bottom. I think it will be better to close down the wider trail and leave the other one open. If you think about it, the regular path has been fixed many many times over the past few years, but I dont remember seing any major work done on the alternative path.
    Or, maybe I am wrong...
    Regardless, I usually go up the principal path becasue it seems easier to me.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaballoLoco
    I agree with you about the fact that creating new trails can be detrimental to the park. But in that partcular section we are talking about, I believe (and when I say i believe I am just giving my humble opinion about based on observations, notice that I am not trying to cause mayhem) the "principal" route erodes much faster and much worse than the alternative way. If you look at the main route, most of it is off camber, rushing the water to the one side and dragging everything along it. That's why it becomes so rocky, gnarly and difficult after a few strong rain storms. The easiest way to make it up is to go as far left as possible, trying to avoid all the loose rocks and debris that ae accumulated on the right side becasue of the off camber effect. On the other hand, the alternative trail seems to be much smoother and less affected by erosion, except at the very bottom. I think it will be better to close down the wider trail and leave the other one open. If you think about it, the regular path has been fixed many many times over the past few years, but I dont remember seing any major work done on the alternative path.
    Or, maybe I am wrong...
    Regardless, I usually go up the principal path becasue it seems easier to me.
    the only reason the other trail isn't a gully just as big is cause it hasn't been around as long. both of those trails are piss poor and completely unsustainable. better only one unsustainable trail than two.

    why not ride the challenging gully? the other one was only buiolt by those who couldn't make the original... maybe now with the new line up the main trail the second one will dissapear? i hope so.

    that hill really just needs one good sustainable trail on it, not two fall line ersion pits running straight up and down it.

  20. #20
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    not sure why Im posting this but anyways.

    Stymie and I did some night riding last night out at wissa. It was a beaut night, not too hot and not too cool although we did sweat our little butts off.

    We didnt need to have dinner either because between all the moths and little bugs we swallowed we ate enough "protein" to get us thru the ride.

    So I guess the point of this post is the we rode the golf course climb without any effort at all. It was alot smoother and the ground packed down real firm. All those loose rocks had either been moved or the rain washed more dirt onto the trail and helped bed them into the ground.
    Interestingly last week we rode the same climb and there were plenty of loose rocks to make that climb a little more technical. A mystery but nonetheless a cycle that will most likely repeat itself over and over.

    I couldnt see any evidence (in my opinion) if someone/people had been out there to groom that climb. But Im no expert to make such a call.

    Just my 2 bobs worth

    We look forward to another night ride next wednesday if anyones interested. I'll warn you guys though, we are newbies at night riding and its taking a little "adjustment" to get used to things flashing past our eyes

    have a great and safe memorial day weekend
    Climb like a goat, descend like a banshee

  21. #21
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    what time to you guys head out and where do you start from? i've been itching to do a night ride but don't feel comfortable going it alone. i don't want to take the chance of hurting myself and not being found until morning.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by lanceh
    what time to you guys head out and where do you start from? i've been itching to do a night ride but don't feel comfortable going it alone. i don't want to take the chance of hurting myself and not being found until morning.

    we usually ride wed nights. leave center city around 6.30pm and get to the beginning of forbidden drive around 7.15pm ish. We found that this may be a little early as we ride around waiting for it to get dark. not that's a bad thing.

    Sure why dont you tag along with us. Although next wednesday I will be at a baseball game but Im sure stymie might be interested.
    PM us next week (stymie or myself)

    josef
    Climb like a goat, descend like a banshee

  23. #23
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    looks like i'll be a the phillies game next wed so we'll have to hook up some other week.

  24. #24
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    have you guys contact PMBA? it seems sinc this is a focus of theirs they can communicate what may of happened and on the other hand they can communicate to FOW about the concerns of the people on this board.

    it's definitely important everyone knows why something is done. If not everyone assume it's to screw with their favorite part.

    i haven't seen it but if they smoothed out a section that is erosion prone, they that's a waste of time b/c it will just erode again.

    anyways, i hope someone from PMBA is watching and starts the communication going


    Joe Transue
    Eastern PA IMBA Rep

  25. #25
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    Hey Joe, I have been watching this board and also riding the trails about 4 days a week. This section in question has been cleaned up by someone anonymous, just like many other trail repairs in the Wiss. The simple fact is that the park is so big and in such bad shape, and there are so many users, that some people take it upon themselves to make repairs, usually near their point of entry... I speak from experience... Some people know how to make sustainable trail repairs and some don't. But making trails sustainable involves much, much more work than simply making spot repairs. So most people choose the latter for obvious reasons. One goal of PMBA is to educate everyone how to make sustainable trails. We are making huge progress on that goal. We had at least 70 people out for National Trails Day and completely rebuilt a small section of trail and made it sustainable (we think.) We are all learning as we go and will only get better... With that said, we want to bring people into the fold who are out there making repairs by themselves. They will learn trails building techniques and much more work is accomplished when there is a group of people. By the way PMBA has our first official trail work day on June 23. (Check our site for details.) The FPC knows who we are and has seen what we do, and they really like us. We have an ultimate set of tools and are getting more all the time. We now have a monthly trail work day on the 4th Sat of EVERY month. Soooooooooooooooooo, I advise anyone and everyone who rides the Wiss, does trail work by themselves, comments on trail conditions, etc, etc to come out and join us and give you input and help out. It doesn't get any clearer than this... Now is the time to stop talking about trail work, and start helping those who are... It truly is a team effort, and everyone has a chance to voice their concerns or make suggestions when we are out there getting dirty... Hope to see you out there with us... Lou (Pres. PMBA)
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