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  1. #1
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    PA. State Gamelands

    To all:

    A few years back I had real firestorm going that involved a lot of people about State Gamelands and IMBA. Well in the near future you will see and hear the reasons why. I know a lot of you got tangled up in it. You had opinions of me that were not nice. Most of you became friends with me. All I can tell you now is there will be an annnouncement involving State Game Land and our future! I hope that at this time we have all worked to acheive the best we can as part of the Mountain Biking community. I know we have by forming NEPMTBA to help anywhere we can. Many great people joined us and made our area what it is today!

    I do know we have to work as one big group to gain what we want as individual groups. Meaning everyone: ATV's, Horses, Mt. Bikers, Hikers, OHV are all in the same boat or should I say on the same trail. Not to say we will all be riding all trails at the same time. We completely have to accept each other and respect what the other group does.

    Chris Stine and I spent 2 days in Harrisburg to become certified in Trail Building. We networked with all trail users. They basically have the same needs we as Mt Bikers do... They want nice trails to ride that fit their application.

    Our future is bright!
    Lee Curry

  2. #2
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    We appreciate your efforts. Sounds like good news is coming. Keep us posted.

  3. #3
    my church is the woods
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA
    To all:

    A few years back I had real firestorm going that involved a lot of people about State Gamelands and IMBA. Well in the near future you will see and hear the reasons why. I know a lot of you got tangled up in it. You had opinions of me that were not nice. Most of you became friends with me. All I can tell you now is there will be an annnouncement involving State Game Land and our future!
    I would like to hear more about what you think you know about SGL's and our future. At this point, I'm not getting my hopes up, as I've heard rumors about re-opening trail access before these past few years. But so far it's been all talk and no results. The whole thing is a farce anyway, for example, very close to my house is a piece of SGL that has "foot travel signs" posted at the gate, and behind that gate the land has been clearcut with heavy machinery driving all over.

    As you mentioned about the "firestorm" you got going here a while back...I prefer to let sleeping dogs lie, and lying dogs sleep. I got the feeling you were posting a lot of inflammatory comments simply to get a reaction. Not gonna go there again.

    peace, moonraker

  4. #4
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    moonraker:

    I'm not here to get into anything. I have to wait and see like everyone else. I feel it will be good knowing what I do from recent events. I hope all can be positive! I'm never afraid of any firestorm caused by me or someone else. Nothing gained is ever easy unless you steal it.
    We as mountain bikers have gained a lot in recent years and I'm not talking on a gameland issue of course. I see more trails in my area and less strict NO WAY stuff being sold to us.
    I hope in someway you yourself have done what you can to better the situation rather than spouting the same old same old. It takes all of us and we here have worked hard to show others we are a viable resource. At a recent trail conference it was the mountain bikers who were pointed out as "The Guys" who know how to make and maintain the trails.
    I can tell you this: We all are being looked at as a group: Mt Bikers, Hikers, ATVs, OHV's and Horses. Yes we all need different specialties but we all ride the trails not the highways. If you went out today and tried to make one contact with someone who could help you might get help. If you continued to work at it you would get somewhere. We have!

  5. #5
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    State Game Lands

    I started mtn biking back in 1989 with my ex wife as a means of exercising and getting out to see some awesome scenery. We built a house at the base of the Broad Mtn near Jim Thorpe. We pretty much lived on the Broad aned in Jim Thorpe. Rode just about everything, and then some. Here is the kicker. We both also owned atv's at the time and rode them a lot as well. I can honestly say that we never rode on SGL. Now with all the trails being closed to mtn bikes and everyonbe cracking down on atv's, there doesn't seem like much of an area to ride anymore. We now trailer our atv's away to go riding legally. Mtn bikes are easier to transport, which I do sometimes. But if I'm paying taxes and cannot use the state land, then it pretty much is a waste of everyones efforts. There are tons of beautiful trails around that can be shared by all. Most bikers I know go for the exercise and for a means of taking in the scenery. There are many unadvertised trails that are awesome in the fall. But the trails that offer some great views are off limits. They want you to take pride in your state but yet don't let you enjoy it and all it has to offer. This is why there are riders who violate the posted trails. They feel as if nothing is being done and we as bikers keep getting the short end of the stick. Who can we write to help change what is happening?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64mtnbiker
    But if I'm paying taxes and cannot use the state land, then it pretty much is a waste of everyones efforts.
    An important item to remember is that State Gamelands are just that, Gamelands. The majority of the funding for there occasional purchase and continued upkeep comes from the revenue generated by the sale of hunting licenses. The important thing to remember is that even if we regain access to these areas it will come with significant restrictions. This will most likely mean that we can only ride on Sundays from September to January, when most types of hunting are prohibited. I would also expect that we would be required to wear the requesite 100 sqauer inches of blaze orange.

    If these are the rules that we would need to follow to ride these trails again, bring em on!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shmack
    An important item to remember is that State Gamelands are just that, Gamelands. The majority of the funding for there occasional purchase and continued upkeep comes from the revenue generated by the sale of hunting licenses. The important thing to remember is that even if we regain access to these areas it will come with significant restrictions. This will most likely mean that we can only ride on Sundays from September to January, when most types of hunting are prohibited. I would also expect that we would be required to wear the requesite 100 sqauer inches of blaze orange.

    If these are the rules that we would need to follow to ride these trails again, bring em on!
    Shmack

    "The majority of the funding for there occasional purchase and continued upkeep comes from the revenue generated by the sale of hunting licenses"

    So what your saying is there are other "Monies" that support it? Have any idea of "What" other Monies and who is paying to support it?

  8. #8
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    The only funds that are used to purchase and maintain the gamelands are from donations, sales of hunting licenses, and the tax that the federal gov't has on the sale of firearms and ammunition. There is no funding out of the state or federal general funds.

    People will sometimes donate land and it may be sold for the explicit purpose of expanding an existing SGL. Also, the PGC is limited to $400/acre (or something close to that). Generally speaking, well less that the going rate which means that the sale of land to the PGC is also somewhat of a donation.

    Like it or not, the hunters in the state have bought the land.
    2007 Gary Fisher Paragon
    Specialized Resolution Pro 29x2.30 tires
    --Way too much bike for the rider!--

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA
    To all:

    All I can tell you now is there will be an annnouncement involving State Game Land and our future! I hope that at this time we have all worked to acheive the best we can as part of the Mountain Biking community.
    How come you're keeping us in suspense? And this doesn't sound real good- kind of like you're offering candy from the pocket with the zipper.

    Good on you for at least trying, no matter how it works out. Screw the critics, most of them have never done anything but talk about what should be done. Tell them to go read that Roosevelt quote about critics - some profound ****.

    Who is the State (sorry, "Commonwealth" - pretentious jerk offs - most likely communists) to deny us our inalienable right to have fun, if we are not hurting anybody in the process? If they continue to come down on the mountain bike community, some good old civil disobedience is in order, you may call it poaching, others would call it your patriotic duty to exercise your liberties.

    Check these guys out: www.velotracts.com. Lay some tracts on the Man or slap a "mountain biking is not a crime" bumper sticker on his Hummer while it's parked at the porno shop in Harrisburg.

    Fight the power.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -HST

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by justriding
    How come you're keeping us in suspense? And this doesn't sound real good- kind of like you're offering candy from the pocket with the zipper.

    Good on you for at least trying, no matter how it works out. Screw the critics, most of them have never done anything but talk about what should be done. Tell them to go read that Roosevelt quote about critics - some profound ****.

    Who is the State (sorry, "Commonwealth" - pretentious jerk offs - most likely communists) to deny us our inalienable right to have fun, if we are not hurting anybody in the process? If they continue to come down on the mountain bike community, some good old civil disobedience is in order, you may call it poaching, others would call it your patriotic duty to exercise your liberties.

    Check these guys out: www.velotracts.com. Lay some tracts on the Man or slap a "mountain biking is not a crime" bumper sticker on his Hummer while it's parked at the porno shop in Harrisburg.

    Fight the power.
    I see your point of view? I'm not holding back on anything either just being positive. I think you hit it with "Commonwealth" Nothing Common or shared wealth involved. I'm sure we could go back to the 1880 rule of an open corridor not gated is an open trail. "Times" don't allow us to do so! Now there's a Walmart in the way!...LOL!
    Thanks for the link interesting site. Did you ever get to ride with the Mt Top guys?

  11. #11
    my church is the woods
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    Quote Originally Posted by dah605
    The only funds that are used to purchase and maintain the gamelands are from donations, sales of hunting licenses, and the tax that the federal gov't has on the sale of firearms and ammunition. There is no funding out of the state or federal general funds.

    People will sometimes donate land and it may be sold for the explicit purpose of expanding an existing SGL. Also, the PGC is limited to $400/acre (or something close to that). Generally speaking, well less that the going rate which means that the sale of land to the PGC is also somewhat of a donation.

    Like it or not, the hunters in the state have bought the land.

    Got something to show to back up those assertions? Your first paragraph is half-true....only you didn't mention that just over half the operating revenue of the PGC is income from the sale of timber, coal, natural gas, and mineral rights to these "game" lands. I've done my research, look at their annual fiscal statements. What you said with the license sales, and the Pittman-Robertson tax, make up less than half of the PGC's income.

    Also, if hunters "paid" for these sgl's, and they want to act like it's their private property, then PAY THE TAXES on those 1.4 million acres like every other private land owner has to. But they won't and can't, because....its owned by the COMMOMWEALTH. and therefor is public, and for the commom good of the citizens of PA.

    Personally, I could care less about 98% of the SGL tracts. There are a few however, like the tracts between Lebanon, Lancaster, and Dauphin Co., as well as JT's Broad mtn, that have significant recreation usage, and they should be run by the DCNR. Still available to have hunting, but managed for the benefit and enjoyment of the majority of people who only hike or bike those woods.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by moonraker
    Got something to show to back up those assertions? Your first paragraph is half-true....only you didn't mention that just over half the operating revenue of the PGC is income from the sale of timber, coal, natural gas, and mineral rights to these "game" lands. I've done my research, look at their annual fiscal statements. What you said with the license sales, and the Pittman-Robertson tax, make up less than half of the PGC's income.

    Also, if hunters "paid" for these sgl's, and they want to act like it's their private property, then PAY THE TAXES on those 1.4 million acres like every other private land owner has to. But they won't and can't, because....its owned by the COMMOMWEALTH. and therefor is public, and for the commom good of the citizens of PA.

    Personally, I could care less about 98% of the SGL tracts. There are a few however, like the tracts between Lebanon, Lancaster, and Dauphin Co., as well as JT's Broad mtn, that have significant recreation usage, and they should be run by the DCNR. Still available to have hunting, but managed for the benefit and enjoyment of the majority of people who only hike or bike those woods.
    Hard to define where the money goes or comes from and who gets to spend it. With a decline in hunting the support is not there as much. I feel that the GC needs to shore up their costs and therefore will look to other user groups to do so. Else sell some of the land off. It seems they have cut staff and downsized already more than once.
    Riding around in big SUVs can't be helping either. What happened to Rendell's plan to make Pa the leading Green state?

  13. #13
    ganginwood
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    Who is the State (sorry, "Commonwealth" - pretentious jerk offs - most likely communists) to deny us our inalienable right to have fun, if we are not hurting anybody in the process? If they continue to come down on the mountain bike community, some good old civil disobedience is in order, you may call it poaching, others would call it your patriotic duty to exercise your liberties
    whoa. those are some big words.

    my neighbor is one of only 7 commissioners in the state for the pgc. itís a postion appointed by the governor. as far as the pgc goes, that's about as high as you can get. i'll see him in the next few days, maybe tonight. i'll ask him where the state gets their funding and provide a detailed review on this thread. some of what i read (above) is accurate, but i don't want to comment until i know for sure. its a conversation i've had with him in the past. this time i'll write it down. in the meantime i'll try not to call him a communist.

  14. #14
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    I understand...you do have to live next door to the guy and he is probably armed to the teeth which, of course, is his inalienable right.
    Buy the ticket, take the ride. -HST

  15. #15
    ganginwood
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    I understand...you do have to live next door to the guy and he is probably armed to the teeth which, of course, is his inalienable right.
    that's actually pretty funny.

  16. #16
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    Isn't the SGC a private company that is only lightly regulated by the State? In other words it doesn't have to answer to the legislature. I think PA is the only state in the nation that has this type of arrangement-everywhere else its Fish and Wildlife regulated by the state legislature. Our arrangement in PA might be great for hunters, but...

  17. #17
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    its not a private company, but acts like one. you are correct in that they don't report to the legislature, mainly because they are "self sufficient" with regards to funding (tax status is a whole nother issue). Somebody appoints whoever is in charge and then they are pretty much on their own. it is goofy as you have DCNR trying to run state forests but no control over deer populations so it gets a little sticky. from what I understand the PGC's funding is starting to run short so it looks like eventually they will have to come under the umbrella of the state's general fund and actually be accountable to somebody.

  18. #18
    ganginwood
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    i spoke with one of the state commissioners last night as promised. unfortunately i'd been boozing since my ride ended and by the time i ran into him, i was more than half in the bag. needless to say i forgot most of what he said. but.... his numbers were pretty much in line with what the pgc's website listed.
    he did say that they do not report to "legislature" as stated above but also that there is no danger of them falling short and having to seek shelter under dcnr's umbrella. the 2 agencies are polar opposties and serve 2 different purposes. dcnr is outdoor recreation and pgc is purely wildlife.

    a post from above reads that timber and natural resources make up for more than half of the revenue and that the sales of hunting licenses and the pittman robinson act will not even account for half of the pie. but in the link the author provided the picture shows the opposite, which is similar to what i was told last night. the sales of hunting licenses generate 50 % of the total income. this does not take into account the PR act regarding the sales of ammunition which is also a huge number.

    apparently this year the income will be close to 74 million with only 15 million coming from coal, gas, lumber etc...
    approx 40 million from hunting licenses...and i forget the rest, sorry.
    here's a pic from the website. hope that helps


  19. #19
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    wow that's a lot of detail. Needless to say, I don't think mtn bikers will get any special consideration from this type of organization. I know that down near where I live close to the Lehigh/berks border, they want to quarry stone, sell it, and then call what is left over a wetlands . Pretty bizarre that a hunting organization is in charge of the wilderness.

  20. #20
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    its certainly not quite right to say that all DCNR is responsible for is recreation and PGC for the game. Its really a rather messed up situation since DCNR is really in charge of the "health" of state forests and one of the issues involved in the health is how the critters, especially deer munch on the forests. Its also a rather tricky situation as the majorty of PA was clear cut back around the turn of the century then replanted so the average age of the forest is severly skewed. Then the PGC along with being in charge of the critters, also manages the gamelands so you have potentially two different management plans for "public" lands and we wont even get into the national forest. Supposedly there is some interaction between DCNR and the PGC with regards to the health of the forest and critter levels, but from attending one of the DCNR forest management planning meetings, you could tell its not all roses between the two groups.

  21. #21
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    Wink

    The PGC's managemeny of critters allows for cultivating of food plots also. Kinda makes them farmers too.

  22. #22
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    is that just on gamelands or do they do any food plots in state forests? I cant actually say that Ive seen active feed plots in state forests so dont know if there actually are any. they a group of many hats

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    I learned a little about forest issues as I spend a lot of time in the woods building mtn bike trails, and also up on top of Blue mtn. Stuff like they clearcut everything but what is now there in its place isn't necessarily as good for wildlife. Also, the oaks have value as a hardwood resource, but when you take them out, you also take out the acorns, which a lot of critters eat and it keeps the food chain happy.

  24. #24
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    Cool-blue Rhythm

    Acorns are great!

    It was Dr Gary Alt who grew the biggest deer and they fired him. Now we have more Bigger Deer and guess what they are now followed by Super Preators like more Wolves and Mountain Lions!

    Just wait Elk are coming to a Trail near you!



  25. #25
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    there's feed plots one the Broad SGL where they grow some kind of crop on an acre or so

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