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  1. #1
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    Pa Imba.........

    "joe, you saw what that guy said about you?" "no, i don't look on mtbr, what did he say?"

    Honestly, i dont look on here b/c in my experience other than updating people on things and sharing great ride stories, progress doesn't happen. it's not a knock on the forums but i have found much better success in meeting and phone conversations.

    Lee, i'll keep the personal statements aside b/c it's never about you or me or IMBA, or NEMBA so hopefully that's where it can go forward.(just a note, i have a tough skin, and your repeated personal jabs serve no purpose but to just challenge someone to respond).

    It was great meeting you guys last year and it seemed everything was fine. You all had a game plan, so i was a little confused on why a year later, you reverted to your original complaints when you started posting on mtbr.

    i do feel the need to re-emphasize who imba works(at least on the state level), b/c there seems to be some mis-understandings. IMBA will not come into your backyard and make things happen or be involved the whole process in whatever successes you may have. It's not b/c of my kids or the other things you mentioned, but in order for this positition to be effective for everyone, it has to have a very specific role or it will be dilluted to the point where it is ineffective.

    When i first started as imba rep i did it to be pro-active. I never took the position of "why aren't you in my backyard" b/c that's not a reality. So i became a apart of the process. At the time i dedicated a lot of time and effort and made mistakes along the way, but in a way i felt pretty lucky b/c i had the chance to make a difference where sometimes in our own jobs we don't always feel that way. I learned pretty quickly that not everyone agrees and not everyone is looking for a solution, but will always have time to talk about the problem. I have always tried to be transparent and based on all my posts in the last few years on various forums i feel that i may have been too transparent That gave a lot of my critics lots of ammunition, but that's for them to worry about.

    So, with that said, i have evolved into a position where I let people be who they're gonna be. There's no reason why i should get involved more than i have to. I have many examples where i've gotten involved then backed off to what it succeed. VMB, french creek, salisbury, etc are examples where i hope i've matured as an advocate and realized that i don't need to do it all myself. There are some awesome people in this sport and i feel i'm most effective looking for opportunities for them to do that; be great at what they want to do.

    I may not always meet someone's excpectations, but we will find a way to make it happen.

    So lee i guess to respond to your comments. All i can say( and i honestly don't mean this sarcastically(sp)) that if you feel there needs to be a change, make that change happen. I would write to IMBA, and let them know your concerns and other clubs and maybe we can have a summit to discuss all this. Maybe in a way, KMBA can be re-created to provide a bigger voice, but that's not for me to do or decide. I can tell you that i've asked repreated times for additional IMBA reps, but they feel that it would be too much to have more reps. If you want me gone than you can make that happen. If it's just you that feel this way, sorry but that wouldn't be a reason to walk away, but if you and other clubs on the eastern side of the state feel it's necessary to move forward then why wouldn't i do it.

    There ya go. I hope that your true feeling arent' that negative, but i'm not responsible for how you feel, nor are you for me. My comments aren't actually directed at you, but for anyone that feels that IMBA should do more for them. You'll just spin your wheels if your waiting for IMBA, PGC, the commonwealth to knock on your door asking what can they do for you. So there is no need to repsond saying everything that you've done, but you've noted that appropriately.

    If you want to meet up with me, we're actually going to be up at merli riding on black friday around 11am. Trust me, you won't miss us.

    Congrats on all that you guys are doing and hopefully success awaits all of us.


    joe


    p.s.: buy yourself a road bike, in the end it's about riding isn't it? I don't feel there's a requirement for how many times you need to ride your mtn bike to be an advocate for it.

  2. #2
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    Good job!

    Joe:

    I have never seen you at the Toughskin games!...LOL!

    I like the forums... lot's of talking provides lot's of answers and options by everyone.

    No negative personal statements here, just funny how great topics are revolving and the people who have input (IMBA) don't respond to the questions here. Frank set stuff straight and told of all being done in "his" area. Too bad IMBA doesn't feel it of their business to have more reps or one here. I think your title of eastern Pa rep was incorrect. It should have been southeastern Pa rep.

    The meeting was good, but never saw or heard form you again. Hum, I thought as the rep you would be concerned to keep in touch. I post stuff on the website about your joining us. We never got a response! We wondered why?

    Joe, you tell of all you did in SEPA. I guess I ask about things from the past because I feel just ignoring them doesn't make them go away! Does it? When you were the eastern Pa rep doesn't it fall on "you" to contact IMBA about your area with someone concern over a matter in their area of eastern Pa? You were the eastern Pa rep so does that mean eastern Pa is only southeastern Pa? I guess as you describe your job as rep you can pick what you want to do and just walk away from others. I know you can't do it all but as a huge organization they feel bigger more important jobs get done and the smaller sometimes better stuff gets pushed aside. If it wasn't for me stirring stuff and taking hits from those who don't understand it would just be business as usual.

    Enjoy Merli... Thanks for the invite though, I have an NEPMTBA ride already planned for Black Friday. Thank God someone...cough, cough (Hubbard) stepped up and saved it because IMBA didn't and you have ridden there it would have been a terrible loss.

    The Road Bike thing is just a joke!...Watch those Hummers though... LOL!

  3. #3
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    -i met up there to meet you guys in feb, and like you said things seemed fixed as far as relationships went. I'm sorry that i didn't follow up to see if things were okay after we met. I haven't heard a thing from you guys all year(email, phone etc) I saw Kris at the velocross the other week and asked how things are going and he said great and that was it. If there was truly a concern, i thouht we had a good enough relationship to be to ask me in person. Do people think i'm unapproachable I uderstand in the end what your trying to say, but sorry it aint gonna happen. i'm not going to be on top of you making sure everything is okay. Sounds like everyone up there, hubbard, land managers, bike shops etc are all behind you, so why would i interfere. There's one guy somewhere else who may need help battling some land closures.


    As far as this sepa/nepa thing....what are you sug nite i don't actively go out and look for stuff to do, it would inefficient. I respond based on needs and what's important. The folks at french creek kept in constant contact, and we may/may not have better and more trails than in the past. What continues to happen everywhere and i'm not really up on local friendships, that people get in the way of themselves. They let the "well i don't like him" or "he's just a promoter" or "they dont' ride as much as i do" mentalities get in the way of completing a project. I was helping a local guy with the trails up at promised land a few years back and things seemed to be progressing, then all of the sudden no communication.

    you want to get real: put yourself in my shoes, you go to meetings, do tons of fieldwork, make tons of phone calls, you make a lot of progress and in the end , one guy doesn't like the other and nothing ends up happening. I could give you tons of examples of when that happens. Then i look at it and sometimes it seems a waste of time.

    Lee, we're all grown ups here. Just continue what your doing up there, make trails, relationships etc. Your complaints about IMBA actually don't seem to be holding you back. You've got all the locals behind you, so just keep doing what your doing. If what you need from me is Trail Care Crews, that's easy. Go onto IMBA site, fill out the request yourself and i will do my best to make sure it gets put on the schedule.


    in all honesty, i would approach IMBA with you or robert being the eastern pa or nepa imba rep. I would have no problem, not b/c i don't want to help, but it makes sense. Since you are a certified trail builder that just helps out more. And with your ability to get everyone together to work on projects and complete them, it seems like the logical next step. It would give you the chance to go outside of Slocum and focus on other projects and bring your experience to other areas.

    so what do you think?

  4. #4
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    Good job!

    Joe:

    I just felt you were here and gone! You asked what I think so here goes.

    I know all you say: here's your quote:

    "You want to get real: put yourself in my shoes, you go to meetings, do tons of fieldwork, make tons of phone calls, you make a lot of progress and in the end , one guy doesn't like the other and nothing ends up happening. I could give you tons of examples of when that happens. Then i look at it and sometimes it seems a waste of time"

    We're REAL! We do all that and more, so We "KNOW" the Feeling I'm not going to list all the things done here in the valley by many fantastic people. You forgot to add spending your own monies. You can search posts, we are in every State park, County park, and Forests. I wouldn't drop you or anyone else. We never did that. I posted your info on our website if I didn't care would I have done that?
    I can tell you Chris and I as well as our memebers have the same thing! Only thing is we don't spin our wheels listening to nonsense.. Proof is what counts. All the yapping, email sending can't get work done! Beating one's chest with both hands and running of the mouth tends to find one really busy, producing nothing to show when finished. Lot's of Lurkers here who think they can hide or sign up under fake names to cause trouble. It's Hilarious! Talk about childlike...

    So enjoy Merli, but you might have to bring snow shoes! Oh ya, I will use the same concept as he did except I'm not complaining! Say Hi To Jay for me!


  5. #5
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    so how about it lee, NEPA IMBA rep........I think it's the next logical step. I'm very serious about it. what do you think? there may be some opening in eastern pa and your direction will greatly be needed.

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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    so how about it lee, NEPA IMBA rep........I think it's the next logical step. I'm very serious about it. what do you think? there may be some opening in eastern pa and your direction will greatly be needed.
    Joe:

    If your not kidding I'm honored, but why would that be logical and what do you feel I could do for them? I have my own organization to run. Lot's lined up in the future around here.

    Not to be insulting... If your joking, and I'm sure you are, you know how stuff on MTBR goes...LOL!

    Was it you or Frank that said they only have a few reps per state, and they can't spare to have more than that, so why would they make a position for "me" to have a NE chapter?

  7. #7
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    i'm serious as a heart attack. You have all the relationships with clubs, bike shops, and land managers and have all the locals backing you. You could easily extend then down to thorpe and up the line north of you. I haven't asked imba, but i would make a big push for it. Then if i step down you could just extend that down south etc.

  8. #8
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    i'm serious as a heart attack. You have all the relationships with clubs, bike shops, and land managers and have all the locals backing you. You could easily extend then down to thorpe and up the line north of you. I haven't asked imba, but i would make a big push for it. Then if i step down you could just extend that down south etc.
    Well speaking of heart attack...I don't have a ready replacement to lead our existing group NEPMTBA. Within less than a year we have gained so much and it would be a shame to toss all that away. If I walk away it basically dies as it exists now. It would just be a riding group!

  9. #9
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    you can do both no problem. You make the position what you want it to be. You'd be a volunteer so you could balance it how you see fit.

    this goes for anyone else viewing this and thinking about it. You help out when you can, either a lot or a little. I had been pres for vmb for many years while doing the imba rep thing.

    i would recommend keeping your involvement with nemba or appoint someone else so you could actually have a partner in advocacy. Many times, you have your current projects going on and you get emails from people wanting to keep their trails open. Many times your are dealing with agencies/managers which can help you on a much larger scale (i.e. french creek and the NPS)

  10. #10
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    Good job!

    Joe:

    In no way will I step away from NEPMTBA. It would be like a kid jumping off the merry go round first time it goes around. The fun has just begun here in the valley and all I see is positive results. So with that said, if you feel you want me too to be pro active and help IMBA I would do what I could for you but I would like to meet/talk with Frank and yourself about "my" ideas to see if "I" fit in IMBA's philosophies. You personally already know my take on things. I will continue to do what I do here with our group, you see what you can arrange and let me know, fair enough?

    LC


  11. #11
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    Hey Joe..it's Kevin from Plains Bike.

    I usually don't post much here, but if you remember I was at that meeting in February with Lee, Chris and you along with Rob Gregory from Hubbard.

    I'm reading over the posts here and I don't really see any intentional bashing starting up and for the most part I believe that both organizations, IMBA & NEPMTBA..and I will also include Hubbard in this as well, so..let's make that all 3 of our groups have been doing a wonderful job in promoting the Mountain Bike community and riding on all levels.

    What does surprise me is that NEPMTBA has taken off so quickly and has become the dominant source of Mountain Bike advocacy in the Northeastern region of the state. I can say that with all honesty as an injury back in mid August put me off my bike and I basically have taken a back seat with the group and I have watched in amazement..and at times somewhat concerned that the group has become so large and powerful with the powers that be, wether it be land owners, politicians, DCNR, BOF and the PSG, that I sometimes wonder if we are going too big too fast.

    With that said I will answer my own doubts. No, we are not getting too big too fast. What we are doing is just that "DOING"...not talking, not sending emails, not letting the naysayers or slanderers on boards such as this derail us in any way. Proof of this is in what we have accomplished in the 1 year that we have become an organization. We're out there getting things done all over this area. I will not take any credit for this at all. All the credit goes to Lee and Chris as this basically has become their endeavor to spend every waking moment in promotion of the group. That in itself has paid off tremendously not only for NEPMTBA, but for the mountain bike community as a whole.

    We have been able to shatter the misconception that some in this area have built around Mountain biking that it was an elitist sport only fit for those that have the $2,000 bike. That is now where it belongs..in the trash can. We have more and more people, adults, kids...everyone showing up for the rides on just about every type of bike out there. I have seen it as I was leading the beginner rides at Slocum before my injury and there were days we had so many groups and people we felt overwhelmed. My shop, Plains Bike, along with Main Bike, Around Town Bike, Country Ski & Sport, Cedar Bike, all of us that are involved with the group have benefited as well, so on a business standpoint NEPMTBA IS FOSTERING growth thru the businesses that support our sport.

    Also, NEPMTBA is working tirelessly to combine efforts for responsible trail care and upkeep with the various other groups out there, including the hunters, equestrian groups, hikers., OHV…ATV, Motorcycles...all of us are now working together and it shows as more and more areas are opening up to not only the mountain bikes, but everyone else who wishes to enjoy what we have here.
    One of the groups biggest accomplishments is becoming involved with Nature Conservatory, the first Mountain Bike group in the country to get involved with this group, to develop multi-use trails on the 1,500 acres they have in this area.

    To be honest Joe, I like your group,..IMBA ...I have your sticker on my shop door and I support the cause, but what I do not see is much action..at least here in this corner of PA. Anything that has been done has been a direct result of NEPMTBA's actions of "being in the field"..meeting landowners, other groups and the general riding public to let them them know what we are all about.

    I have a question Joe…What will IMBA Offer our group? I’m not standing on a soapbox here. Granted..I applaud your efforts in other areas of the state, and I offer congratulations and a “Job Well Done” in those projects, but up here it’s been NEPMTBA doing the work and getting projects brought from the discussion phase to the actual building and in use phase, so…maybe it is time to get together again and discuss your proposal of having a rep from us to help you. Like one person has posted on another topic…it’s all about “US”..you, our group, the riding public..promoting riding.

  12. #12
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    I don't get it?

    My name is Matt and I am from SAMBA in Lebanon-Lancaster area.

    SAMBA is involved with:
    1) DCNR at Swatara
    2) Boy Scouts at Camp Mack
    3) The trust that owns Mt. Gretna

    Maybe my expectations are way off, but I don't expect much from IMBA. They so far have met my expectations, with supplying information and advise on just about all areas of building relationships to building trails.
    I never expected to have anyone come and do anything for me. I realized, we needed to do it. If we needed to know how to approach a land manager, it was there. If you wanted to know how to build trails it was there.

    I have been told by many, including many people I ride with, that IMBA sucks and doesn't do anything? I tell them that, I am IMBA, and I have built the relationship with the land manager, implemented a plan to build trails, and that when they donate there time to work on trails, that they are IMBA too.

    The end point here is that whatever acronym you want to group yourselves into, we are all on the same team, even when we disagree.

    Matt Myers

  13. #13
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    Well said Matt! I look at IMBA as an information and training source. It is up to the local clubs to get their hands dirty.
    I think we all forget sometimes that our IMBA reps like Joe are volunteers and people like that are hard to come by. So I would like to put a big thanks to anyone that makes an effort to keeping the trail open and flowing.

    Brian Arnold

  14. #14
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    imba is based out here in bulder colorado and they havent done d!ck for the fr/dh scene out here. Many other groups have contributed many hours to making something happen. So my personal setiment on imba is that their lazy.

    On the other hand Joe is a good dood, he works hard and does good work. These attacks are not necessary and should be handled directly face to face. Did you see the special on tv about people being fired for slandering each other behind there backs at work. In some way this is work right?

  15. #15
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    ... and if we just ...

    Quote Originally Posted by snowskilz
    imba is based out here in bulder colorado and they havent done d!ck for the fr/dh scene out here. Many other groups have contributed many hours to making something happen. So my personal setiment on imba is that their lazy.

    On the other hand Joe is a good dood, he works hard and does good work. These attacks are not necessary and should be handled directly face to face. Did you see the special on tv about people being fired for slandering each other behind there backs at work. In some way this is work right?
    I can't be Fired I'm the Owner!...LOL!

    2 kinds of people out there. The ones who Work... and the one's who let them!

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    I'm with Matt and Brian, oh yeah I'm a member of SAMBA too.

    I don't quite get all this, what do you guys expect IMBA to do, come out and hold your hands? Why? You are doing a great job. With what you have established and accomplished it almost seems a waste of resourses for IMBA to get involved in your area?
    So maybe the resourses would be better used were there is no one to step up? I don't know the answers, but they are honest questions.

    I think IMBA is there for the bigger picture. I think the trails at Swatara were built with IMBA's guidelines and they are sweet. I established a Bike Partol with IMBA's help at Swatara and it went pretty cool this year. These are just two exmples of what IMBA has helped our small group (SAMBA) accomplish. I feel IMBA is there to plant the seed and help you accomplish what you want to do, with information and help guide you on your journey, not do it for you.

    Mike
    Mike

  17. #17
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    hope all is well

    for all those who have responded and looking for a response, i apologize. Very busy, so i just wanted to put down a few words to help explain a little bit.

    after meeting with you guys last year, i walked away feeling pretty confident that you guys don't really need me. Like you said, your growing fast, and it sounds like you guys are defintely expanding beyond F. Slocum. To explain why IMBA may not be what you want it to be. others have expressed this: IMBA is you, not me. I say that with a positive tone. I once felt like you did 8 yrs ago when i heard about this SGL thing. I didn't really care about what someone was doing for me, b/c you gotta just go after it. I invited the rep at that time(tim cusick) to do a presentation at our club mtg. It went great and soon after that i asked IMBA if i could be a rep. Since then i have met some great people in PA and seen some great trails and not so great.

    Let me explain the "you don't need me" statment. In my opinion, you guys are IMBA. I'm not selling the IMBA thing b/c i don't get paid, but symboliclly (sp) you are the advocates and you should put IMBA under all your signatures. I think it brings an additional layer of credibility to what you have already worked on yourselves. If you need info on dealing with land management, i can help. I, along with frank and Karl who just left, work on the state level which trickels down to the local level. The relationship with you and your local land manager is more important than mine.

    i have been other areas not b/c i decided to, but b/c they reached out with specific problems. You all seem to have things pretty tight. If there is something you need, please feel free to reach out. Now is the time, b/c once race season comes around, it's pretty tough.

    i don't know if this clears things up, but i gave it a shot

    in the future i hope to have a NE and south central rep, that way we have harrisburg coverage and overlap if someone leaves.

    see you on the trail
    joe

  18. #18
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hackamo
    for all those who have responded and looking for a response, i apologize. Very busy, so i just wanted to put down a few words to help explain a little bit.

    after meeting with you guys last year, i walked away feeling pretty confident that you guys don't really need me. Like you said, your growing fast, and it sounds like you guys are defintely expanding beyond F. Slocum. To explain why IMBA may not be what you want it to be. others have expressed this: IMBA is you, not me. I say that with a positive tone. I once felt like you did 8 yrs ago when i heard about this SGL thing. I didn't really care about what someone was doing for me, b/c you gotta just go after it. I invited the rep at that time(tim cusick) to do a presentation at our club mtg. It went great and soon after that i asked IMBA if i could be a rep. Since then i have met some great people in PA and seen some great trails and not so great.

    Let me explain the "you don't need me" statment. In my opinion, you guys are IMBA. I'm not selling the IMBA thing b/c i don't get paid, but symboliclly (sp) you are the advocates and you should put IMBA under all your signatures. I think it brings an additional layer of credibility to what you have already worked on yourselves. If you need info on dealing with land management, i can help. I, along with frank and Karl who just left, work on the state level which trickels down to the local level. The relationship with you and your local land manager is more important than mine.

    i have been other areas not b/c i decided to, but b/c they reached out with specific problems. You all seem to have things pretty tight. If there is something you need, please feel free to reach out. Now is the time, b/c once race season comes around, it's pretty tough.

    i don't know if this clears things up, but i gave it a shot

    in the future i hope to have a NE and south central rep, that way we have harrisburg coverage and overlap if someone leaves.

    see you on the trail
    joe
    Joe!
    "WE ARE NEPMTBA"

    ... NEPMTBA goes under all our signatures! We have all the ducks in a row and "WE" did "ALL" the work with what we have accomplished here through the help of very dedicated members of NEPMTBA!

    I'm not going to go backwards and bring up past events. You were aware of the problems here. We handled them at a time when we could have used help at your level. I can say it turned out Great anyways due to some very dedicated people around here!
    That's all I will say on that matter! We were even out yesterday and today working on trails in the snow. It just kinda happens that way around here, stuff gets done!

    With that said! I feel the same as Kevin and Chris and our other staff members as well as all members of NEPMTBA do. There are lot's of naysayers here in the valley who talk a lot and "NEVER" do a thing to help with Trail Conservation, Maintenance, or Construction! We tried to work with them and they were always invited to our workdays... Never showed! Yet they try to take credit or interfere with our success. They fool no one! Through all that went on the others who made all the noise have found out they are on the outside looking in now! Yet, we get stronger! More and more people step up and offer assistance everyday.

    Our group is a very important link in the chain. Keeping trails open promotes bicycle sales and repairs as well as purchases of products to maintain, and improve one's bicycle, yet we are not a business. We have had many thanks from local business' and people who are directly or indirectly connected to bicycling.

    November was our one year anniversary. Year two looks to be truly amazing as far as opening of more trails through out the area along with the continued maintenance of existing trails. We have a few surprises for the spring and summer...

    Success is seeing a beginner who shows up and has no idea of what to do and then develops into a fine rider. That is all the thanks we need from anyone! We promote success on all levels!

    If this all sounds like strong statements then so be it! Doing all the work we did was a strong handed task! This entire organization was designed by us on all levels. We are very happy with our time spent to meet, organize, and co ordinate everything we need to go forward.

    Ok let's talk busy... Yes, I race also: Motorcycles, Quads, and Bicycles. Chirs races Mt Bikes, Road Bikes, and Cyclo-X, Kevin runs White Sox, BMX events, and future events at Sno Mountain Ski area, as do our other staff members participate in events, but we always find the time to get more done!

    Our record stands Work done, Trails open, Future plans made

    Have a Happy Holiday from us at NEPMTBA

    Lee Curry, Chris Stine, Kevin Czekalski, Gary Milulski, Jonathan Stoshick, Joe Stanley and all memebrs of "NEPMTBA"

  19. #19
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    Joe, glad to see you back and hope all is well and if I don’t get a chance to say it later, have a great holiday!

    Thank you also for the recap of this discussion, however..and not to stir any animosity amongst us, but I do take exception to the phrase “we are IMBA” No sir, we are not and nor do we plan on carrying the IMBA tag on any letterhead or into any discussion that we may have concerning our group, NEPMTBA, in the future.

    We ourselves as a group have done everything up here in this area with the powers that be without any such assistance from anyone, except our diehard volunteers and groups that are willing to work together for the betterment of all. Unfortunatly at times we have had to run damage control because of those in this area that have tried to derail our group or to take credit for the groups effort, when in fact those detractors have yet to lift a finger, or shovel, rake, saw…. for that matter anything to help us in our projects.
    I do not hold IMBA responsible for this as you nor us can control the actions of a few narrow minded individuals or groups up here, but it is now known that NEPMTBA IS the group that people will come to when they want trail work, education, or general Mountain Bike information in Northeastern Pennsylvania.

    Last year when the group was founded we decided at that point to “make the difference”, not just by attending meetings, although that was a big part of it, but by actually getting out in the field to show the organizations that we were in touch with just how serious we were in accomplishing our goals. That drive and determination has paid off, sure..for NEPMTBA, but the most important payoff is the trails that are now available or will be available soon for the general Mountain Biking community.

    My advice here Joe is for IMBA maybe to take some lessons from us on how to accomplish goals as so far our target range of accomplishments is at 100% for the year. Again, that’s 100%, in only 1 year. This is just the tip of the iceberg as well as 2008 looks to be a banner year for us in aquiring more land and more trail use rights, all through the same organizations that IMBA has been in contact with I’m sure, PSGC, DCNR, BOF. Again, we have made so many inroads and accomplishments and have plans set and in motion, once again I ask myself, “Are we going to accomplish all that we set out to do?” Again, I will answer my own question: YES!

    Please don’t take this as a “cocky attitude” I feel we have the right to sing a little here as we have overcome a great many obsticals this year to get to where we are at, but it was well worth it and I am proud to be a member of NEPMTBA.

    Like I stated, there are many projects ahead, one that I am keen on seeing completed will be the Mountain Bike course and downhill trail rides at Sno Mountain. Last year when I brought it up to Mark Verrasto, Operations Director, he said..“great..let’s do it”, and put me in charge of the project. Unfortunatly it had to take a back seat because of the bigger projects that had to be completed and got pushed back a year, but I’m sure after the ski season Mark is going to come to me and say..”Get it started”. I will say because of their accomplishments, NEPMTBA is the group that I am going to turn to for advice, trail marking and placement, and ideas on how to make our mountain the best for everyone on a Mountain Bike as I see NEPMTBA as the “Go To” team to get things done.

    Again, not trying to cause animosity, but we are not IMBA, we are NEPMTBA!

    Kevin Czekalski
    Owner, Plains Bike Shop

    Founding Member NEPMTBA

    Assistant Operations Director,
    Sno Mountain Ski Resort

  20. #20
    my church is the woods
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    I've read all this back and forth on this discussion thread, and I am just wondering what you nepmtba guys have against IMBA?

    I've been dropping by this forum now for quite a while, and I get the picture that way back when, Lee and whoever else up there had the impression that IMBA was useless because all they wanted was $$ and weren't there to help out in their time of need. To me, it seems like you guys had a totally different perception of what and who IMBA is than what I see.

    IMBA is a resource for local groups to use to do exactly what your doing.

    But you guys seem to be on your high horse about doing it without assistance. It's kinda like trying to rebuild a car engine without the help of the manual that tells you step by step how to do it and what to expect. Sure, it can be done on your own, if you talk to the right people, and figure it out on your own, but why not use the methods and procedures already there and available in the rebuild manual? Would it be proper to go blaming the engineer who authored the manual for not coming and helping with rebuilding the engine?....sounds ridiculous, huh, but yet that's how I've seen nepmtba's attitude toward imba.

    I don't fault your determination at all, it's noble indeed, the drive to "do it on our own" and it appears your having some success.

    Have you even looked at IMBA's website and seen all the resources available? It's all there, and only because all of us mountain bikers have collectively donated to the cause of making them available. We all want the same thing here, more and better trails. Thats why we make all this stuff available to the small local clubs so they can have this information to turn to, and in turn have much more success in working with land managers and making trails. If you want to do this all on your own without IMBA, that's fine, but I'm just having trouble understanding WHY you'd want to.

    Again, I believe it has to do with your original misunderstanding of what and who IMBA is. It is not some group or outside individual who will come and get your trails approved or built. It's about empowering local clubs with the knowledge and resources to get that done on their own.

    In the end, I don't care if you guys affiliate yourselves with IMBA or not, I'm simply trying to UNDERSTAND why and how your better off NOT having your club be affiliated.

  21. #21
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    Hey Moonraker, thanks for the response back and I appreciate the comments.

    I guess, and this is my opinion here, the reason we don't want to be affiliated with IMBA is because we have proven that you do not need them to get projects completed and we pretty much have taken the stance that no one will tell us that we HAVE to be affiliated with them either. Very simple. Our take also is the less Red Tape and political crap that has to be waded through the better, especially in dealing with the entities and powers that be up here. It has been proven that this seems to work best for us

    Again, not to cause controversy or anything of that sort, and yes, I have given IMBA the credit that is due them, and Joe, who has worked tirelessly in his capacity with IMBA a few posts up, but I think what rankles us is when someone say's we are something that we are not. Again, we are not IMBA. IMBA is IMBA, NEPMTBA is NEPMTBA. There is a difference and we do not want to be affiliated with them. Simple. Joe made the mistake in saying we are IMBA (read his post).

    We all looked at IMBA's site. I will not take away anything there from IMBA, very impressive, thought out and with a long range goal in planning. Fantastic site, but at the same time there is no reason that any other group with the right people and detirmination, as you put it, can not accomplish the same goals, on their own without the need for IMBA.

    We have chosen that path to work independantly from any other organization, and, as I have seen, it was the right choice to make.

    Have a great holiday my friend !

    Kevin

  22. #22
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
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    Smile

    moonraker:

    Choices my friend!

    If you need the manual then I guess you would use it. That's a choice.

    Yes, I would criticize an engineer who designed something if it was incorrect for my use. His design doesn't fit my need. There are other designs out there that work for me in my application. Should I seek a design that fits me Yes... indeed I did. Do I think the designer should look to other avenues of use? Yes. They get paid to design not just make one thing and sit back.

    Not some success... total success in a place where there was nothing as far as an organized group goes. So what you say is true. "We" are the organized group you speak of, but it seems as an organized group you have the only choice to go to IMBA. We stepped up. We did it without outside help. We not only stepped up at Frances Slocum, but like a good designer we spread out resources to work everywhere in the valley. Offering assistance to help all in our area.

    I don't know where Joe was going with NEPMTBA is IMBA? It might have been to try to piss us off or his thought of how he sees it. So in that view of his it means anyone who works on trails is IMBA? Hum? Kinda "one sided" to use a nice word! Eithier way it will be a month or two before he responds as usual! You know he is really busy... Would it be correct for me to tell you to sign your name "NEPMTBA" cause you do trailwork somewhere if your not associated with us? Hell no!

    The problem is with big organization's is in my view of a overseeing group would be to have reps who call or contact local clubs and offer assistance. They should "keep in touch" and tell the groups of plans or programs they have. They should help the group to grow.

    Notice I left the offer Joe made to me in another post to meet with he and Frank for a meeting on the matter of me being the rep. I spoke with our group and they were open to the meeting, but as you can see no response was forwarded. So I ask you if you were dealing with this type of non responsiveness would you sit back and say "Oh well" or would you step up and get something going?

    PA needs a PA group! One that will take into consideration "ALL" of Pa, not just one or a few areas. The persons responsibibly would be to check every possible opportunity in their area for a trail to be built. Contact all groups in their area and offer assistance. Break it down into NE, NW, SE. SW. They are all volunteers so why doesn't IMBA have more reps? They don't have to pay them! There was no rep here then or now even if he was advertised as the "eastern" Pa rep. I suggested to the eastern IMBA rep a person for the job who he knows. Then he tells me I should be the rep. I feel it is his job as rep to contact the person and ask if he would like the job, or find someone here in the NE who can represent IMBA. Not my job to contact IMBA and tell them "Hey I want this guy to be my rep in my area! From past conversations it has been said by others as a rep "well I can pick and choose what or how much I would like to do" Sounds like a political position to me.

    Is any of this negative? NO... Things need to change and I feel with all of the interest in trails and riding Mt bikes the cart is before the horse, but it is getting better just not fast enough. Will all areas grow at the same rate?...NO, but some areas could grow more or be revived, because people are continuing to purchase bikes and looking for places to ride.

    Kevin as a member of NEPMTBA asked them at Sno Mountain if he could put trails on their mountain. He stepped up! Isn't this something an IMBA rep should be doing? Creating more opportunities for peolpe to use trails? Many of our member do this. They are always looking for more places to ride. What does International Mountain Biking Association mean then?

    Happy Holidays
    Lee Curry
    NEPMTBA

  23. #23
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    another winter time forum debate.......

    to clarify: when i said "we are IMBA" kevin and others automatically took it as a jab or a statemtent that you SHOULD BE IMBA

    what i meant, and i thought it was pretty clear is that "we" the every day riders is what makes up imba. It is a "from the ground up" organization. i'm sure you understand imba and realize that they don't jump out of the manual and do it, you have to read it, and follow directions but not word for word(i love when people using the trail book to make arguments) but to generalize and guide people. if you have enough experience and knowledge my friend, no one is stopping you. at that point i just get out of the way.

    i will however make a point for including IMBA. There are always levels of advocacy and in addition to local and regional there is state wide influence. Many land managers just implement guidelines that are set forth by state leaders, so including imba i think just makes sense, but i know the response to that.
    ----------------------------------
    okay, as far as calling me out and jabbing at me about no responding quick enough and being "busy." I have thick skin, but honestly, is it necessary

    you think i've been sitting on my thumbs waiting for you to get mad and bash me on the forums? i've talked to frank and i have an email to imba. Next i wanted to talk to you about what your thoughts are. (i know everyone's reading and saying "i want to be in on that call") Lee and others, i don't know what your personal life is and it's none of my business, but i'm up to my neck in "to do's." yeah i know waaaaaaaaaaa, but that's my reality. If you don't like it, what do you want me to do. if i wanna race my bike all over this beautiful state, train my arse off and be focused, then that's what i'll do.

    If you don't like IMBA and don't feel the need for it, then save me a ton of time and stop bashing it. if you think imba is worth something and want to be apart of it, and want me to step aside, then contact

    Mike Van Abel, executive director, mike@imba.com , x102

    he's as high as you can get, and he knows me. Also scott@imba.com and/or jenn@imba.com.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    if i may take my PC IMBA hat off for a second....

    no offense, but i'm thinking how you guys deal with me, and i'm on YOUR side, and i wonder how the relationships really are. i'm not there so i won't make any judgements, but all i go off are these forums which by nature is ridiculous. if your that serious call or email. I ain't gonna hold your hand, and i doubt you want it held.


    ps i havent' read the pmba post yet, so this could get interesting

  24. #24
    Ride da mOOn Moderator
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    Good job!

    Sorry Joe:

    We don't buy it! You said "We"(NEPMTBA) are IMBA! Look at your post! Com'on Joe? This isn't a slug fest here! No animosity! Just a good discussion, as far as IMBA here in the valley it didn't and doesn't exist! I get it that others used IMBA.

    We didn't. We didn't start as grass roots. We have members with many talents. building tracks and playing with dirt. Kevin has built numerous American Bicycle Association tracks indoor and outdoor and other areas for bicycles, and I have built both American Motorcycle Association MX and ABA BMX tracks as well as sections for AMA Trails Competition indoor and outdoors Modifying our recourses to develop and maintain trails is no problem. You know as well as I do we deal with water more than dirt, because it is the water that carries away the dirt we love so much. I think we are NEPMTBA. We see the whole forest and each tree! We want all positive info! As do most here. We want trails for all to ride and enjoy.

    If you noticed someone put up a really stupid abusive post here and it was removed! Hum...we know who the abusive posters are! We don't know why the "one post wonders" try dumb stuff like that. Again they got spanked and this time it garnered the attention of someone very important. You would think they would add a positive post and learn to respect others and help to better the entire MTB community, who by the way also knows who they are! They remind me of a cat trying to hide between railroad tracks. We have all seen this before The cat hunches down and giving you the stare as you ride by "You can't see me I'm invisible" Sure you are just keep thinking that, the train "is" coming! They sure do enjoy riding all the trails around these parts though, that are maintained by the same people they choose to bash. Sorry for the rant...comical...

    We have some different ideas than you do as far as how to promote and maintain trails, and The IMBA book is not the bible. Good book though, one can never have enough educational materials. We like to mix all ideas and use the combination to solve things rather than being guided by one idea, not a bad thing. You are biased by nature, not a bad thing,

    We're not here to test your thick skin posture. I race with guys on motorcycles and quads you know how nuts they are. So I know the drill. Those are weapons as far as I'm concerned. Building 2 new race cycles for 2008 ya know takes lot's of time to do so, but worth it to have lot's of fun beating friends and others. I pushed hard there with our Motorcycle sanctioning body and for 2008 and we have the new class we all wanted. So we share the same idea there as far as competition goes as do others.

    All mine and Kevin's info is here for all and our heads out there. Never afraid to have shots taken at us. We expect it! Forward progress comes out of it most of the time.

    I thought it was a pretty good conversation we have here! No one is bashing anyone! We certainly are not bashing you. You agreed you don't have time to get stuff done. We are always glad to meet with anyone. We aren't anti IMBA. We just wish they made more of an effort here rather than somewhere else. Saving trails in Yellowstone is fine, but trails here in Pa are where we live. Maybe by all the squeaking we will all have a better future here in Pa. No one would complain about that would they?

    As you can see by my Pmba post people are interested in a Pa only group. I never said sans IMBA either! I just wanted to see Positive open discussion on the subject. Yes, you tried before this time We're trying! Wish us luck! So round up Frank wear your IMBA jackets and com'on up to our NE nest and we will meet and we will even buy dinner this time. Your not racing now Joe unless you plowing as you race, and you can fore go one day of training, call it your recovery day...

    Happy Holidays
    Lee Curry
    NEPMTBA

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