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  1. #1
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    Lackawanna State Park, how long for trails to dry out?

    Rode there for the first time yesterday (Tuesday).

    Although I live in the SE part of the state, I don't believe there was any rain in the last five days. Yet entire sections of trail there were wet and soggy. In some short sections, it was as is the trail and a small stream became one.

    The bad: Sections North Woods were really wet and soggy. Traveling clockwise, almost the entire trail between 438 and 407 was wet mud. The Abington Trail from (what the SP map lists as) Cole Road was pretty bad.

    How long does it take for the trails there to dry out?

  2. #2
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    It's a super place to ride, but if I said next summer, or if it gets cold enough it will ice over...

    ...that might be close. They just had a workday to elevate one trail, but lot more to do. We need lots of sun to dry that out.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by XCoalMiner View Post
    Rode there for the first time yesterday (Tuesday).

    Although I live in the SE part of the state, I don't believe there was any rain in the last five days. Yet entire sections of trail there were wet and soggy. In some short sections, it was as is the trail and a small stream became one.

    The bad: Sections North Woods were really wet and soggy. Traveling clockwise, almost the entire trail between 438 and 407 was wet mud. The Abington Trail from (what the SP map lists as) Cole Road was pretty bad.

    How long does it take for the trails there to dry out?
    I know what you mean. I was there on Sunday and it is all mud and horse sh-t.. We have not had much rain in the last week or so.

  4. #4
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    What looks to be happening is there's soil-based water flow in what seems to be very thin top soil and no sub-soil at all.

    Cutting a trail in the top soil opens up the flow to the path of least resistance. And in certain areas (entire trail between 438 and 407, for example) the uphill terrain is acting like a sponge in slowly releasing water, think days or weeks of sponge-like storage, because there's no way that volume of water flow came from frost that formed overnight and melted in the daylight sun.

    I'm guessing the trail builders there know all about this, sustainable trail design and building and etc. But they can only work with what they got. If the first statement isn't true, refer them to IMBA. Again, I hope they know all this already.

    > ... We need lots of sun to dry that out.
    How many days qualifies as lots of sun? Factoring in this time of year (mid/late Fall) with lower all around temps means the air can evaporate and hold less volume of water from puddles and such, plus less sun with shorted hours of daylight? E.g., how many days in the summer and how many days right about now. Thanks for whatever insights you have.

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    Yes you nailed it, as far water drainage and I would add "springs" percolating up through in certain areas. I'm personal friends with the head trail maintenance guy I have helped in the past, as well as others doing a lot of work, but there are a lot of trails.

    Locals know of this and just don't ride there in the wet season, hence I say summer is the best time.

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    Great place to ride, unfortunately mud is a part of the LSP experience, I believe work on north woods area is coming soon. Did a touch over 10 miles on Wednesday there, and encountered the typical muddy sections, overall it was great as I haven't ridden there in almost a year...if your familiar with the trails some of the sections are avoidable.
    '14 Yeti SB95c--Pike'd

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    Quote Originally Posted by ds33gt View Post
    Great place to ride, unfortunately mud is a part of the LSP experience, I believe work on north woods area is coming soon. Did a touch over 10 miles on Wednesday there, and encountered the typical muddy sections, overall it was great as I haven't ridden there in almost a year...if your familiar with the trails some of the sections are avoidable.
    Very nice place to ride. Many riders, but not too many and many options. I would love to ride this place after a long sunny week with warm temps. I had the wrong tires on my bike for the mud. Did a little fishing, but no luck..

  8. #8
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    Good job!

    Quote Originally Posted by poconomtbiker View Post
    Did a little fishing, but no luck..
    There are monsters in that lake. I've had a few in my boat that downright scared me! pulled them through the ice also

    Riding it in the dry is a whole different fun time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    There are monsters in that lake. I've had a few in my boat that downright scared me! pulled them through the ice also

    Riding it in the dry is a whole different fun time.
    Monster fish ? Bass? I have to try ice fishing and some ice biking..

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    ^ Ah, "Esox Lucius" the "Water Wolf" aka Musky, but have also caught large Perch through the ice! Don't know if you can "ice bike" I did it at as state park years ago and was told not allowed, cause it's not a designated trail...LOL

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEPMTBA View Post
    ^ Ah, "Esox Lucius" the "Water Wolf" aka Musky, but have also caught large Perch through the ice! Don't know if you can "ice bike" I did it at as state park years ago and was told not allowed, cause it's not a designated trail...LOL
    Thats too bad because I X/C ski all the time on frozen state park lakes and never had a ranger say a word to me. I would like to get some stud tires and ride on the ice.

  12. #12
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    XC skiing is cool...
    ...I use mine also to get out on the ice to fish.

  13. #13
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    trail designer here. I understand imba building rules, we follow imba. . trail was cut on the contour with limited land we had to work with. what occurred 2 yrs after it was built a landowner above the trail reworked his drainage guess where. Given the limited space to put a trail here & to get it to the top of 438 where it needs to be is very difficult to follow imba completely, The alt. is to ride pavement for half a mile--ugh. This fall we will rebuild the trail on the half closer to rte 438. the area has been surveyed during the wet season & is far more sustainable. sometimes I get it right sometimes I get it wrong . I will take the fall here for the poor trl design in this section. LSP is a particularly challenging place to build trails as the entire system is riddled with springs & clay soils that hold water. We recently renovated 1 mile of orig. DCNR cut trail on abington that never dried til July. We raised the entire trail- it took 500 hours to accomplish & 10 months- 90% by hand. My point it takes a long time to build a trail here the right way. Come back in Oct & let me know your thoughts on the reroute.
    Last edited by jtierney; 05-27-2013 at 02:15 AM.

  14. #14
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    jtierney, I was out there last weekend and got a simple loop in.

    I stayed off the trail closest to the lake altogether, but sort of did a more perimeter style loop clock-wise from the south parking.

    Overall things were in great shape.

    There was some drainage in North Woods, just past the existing "roman road" style stuff was the worst for a bit.

    I walked most of the wet because I didn't want to add rutting or go 'round.

    You and the rest of the contributory trail gnomes have done a *ton* of work out there, and it is appreciated.

  15. #15
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    thanks for the kudos we have a great crew that puts a lot of time & love into this needy trail system. More projects are lined up throughout this year to improve other wet areas. After we finished if all goes according to plan we should have a much drier system.

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